Burqa ban in france

Godfather.

MrAbraham wrote:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/04/12/501364/main20053081.shtml

(AP) PARIS - A woman has been ticketed in a suburban Paris shopping center for wearing a face veil, in the first reported sanction under a new ban on the garments, police said Tuesday.
Another woman in another Paris suburb was stopped for wearing a veil, but was let go with a warning.
----

what did they think was going to happen ?

Godfather.

Jason P

I have to agree that this ban is just a bunch of political B.S., but I am intrigued by the irony of what's to come. There is going to be a lawsuit arguing that the religious right to indoctrinate a women into giving up her women's rights has been violated.

ShimmyMommy

Jason P wrote:

I have to agree that this ban is just a bunch of political B.S., but I am intrigued by the irony of what's to come. There is going to be a lawsuit arguing that the religious right to indoctrinate a women into giving up her women's rights has been violated.

yes, this is going to be real mess :?

Kel Varnsen

MrAbraham wrote:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/04/12/501364/main20053081.shtml

(AP) PARIS - A woman has been ticketed in a suburban Paris shopping center for wearing a face veil, in the first reported sanction under a new ban on the garments, police said Tuesday.
Another woman in another Paris suburb was stopped for wearing a veil, but was let go with a warning.
----

Did they make her remove the veil so they could write her a ticketr. Otherwise how could they prove her identity. That said I don't see the issue wearing a veil in a suburban shopping mall to begin with.

Idris

Kel Varnsen wrote:

MrAbraham wrote:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/04/12/501364/main20053081.shtml

(AP) PARIS - A woman has been ticketed in a suburban Paris shopping center for wearing a face veil, in the first reported sanction under a new ban on the garments, police said Tuesday.
Another woman in another Paris suburb was stopped for wearing a veil, but was let go with a warning.
----

Did they make her remove the veil so they could write her a ticketr. Otherwise how could they prove her identity. That said I don't see the issue wearing a veil in a suburban shopping mall to begin with.

Maybe they used a retinal scanner to ID her?

ShimmyMommy

MrAbraham wrote:

Maybe they used a retinal scanner to ID her?

maybe a retinal scanner is what they should be spending their money on instead of civil rights-robbing legislature... :think:

or even better...

http://www.dnaindia.com/health/report_h ... st_1192247

...but then people would still have the right to refuse both of those methods based on civil rights...and does that make them automatically guilty in the eyes of law enforcement...much like choosing to continue to wear the burqa makes you guilty by religious association? :think:

I am open to those ideas...I got nothing to hide

Riverrunner

When I first heard about the legislation I liked it. My thoughts were that these women were being made to wear burquas by their husbands or their religion and the law forbidding it would allow them some measure of equal rights - the right to be seen in public. Of course, that also means her right to wear burqua has been taken away, assuming she actually had a choice whether to wear one or not in the first place. I still think it is better to be prohibited from wearing one than it is to be made to wear one.

ShimmyMommy

Riverrunner wrote:

When I first heard about the legislation I liked it. My thoughts were that these women were being made to wear burquas by their husbands or their religion and the law forbidding it would allow them some measure of equal rights - the right to be seen in public. Of course, that also means her right to wear burqua has been taken away, assuming she actually had a choice whether to wear one or not in the first place. I still think it is better to be prohibited from wearing one than it is to be made to wear one.

I think this were the problem lies...government (or you or me) doesn't really know if she is actually choosing the burqa or not, so how do they have the right to take away her civil rights to wear one? KWIM?

pjfan31

Digital Twilight wrote:

haffajappa wrote:

redrock wrote:

It's a ban on ALL face covering - for security issues, though it does seem to target some more than others! There was a huge thread about it a while back. Lots of different views.

well i can't think of too many different religions that make women cover their face
i usually have mixed feelings on this topic.

personally i think its backwards and stupid that women have to cover their faces, but i understand peoples rights to religion.

Actually it is a choice to wear the Burqa. It is not forced on by their religion I think but has just evolved from that. Maybe someone with more knowledge can comment further but that is my understanding. A lot of these women choose to wear them and feel comfortable in them.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ap ... nza-drider

You hear people often commenting about how it is awful that women are oppressed etc but it really wasn't until recently that women in the western world achieved equal rights and there is still a big debate on how 'equal' women really are.

I'm not going to read the whole thread, but I am glad someone clarified this. It is such a common misconception that the Islamic religion forces its women to wear burqas. It is a choice. I think this highlights the need for everyone to be more educated. This isn't a criticism of the haffajappa, but if we educate ourselves more about others religions, traditions, culture and their beliefs we would be better off. If we do not educate ourselves, we face the risk of stereotyping everyone.

As the scholar Chantelle Crozette says 'we need to embrace difference, rather than suppress it'

redrock

pjfan31 wrote:

Digital Twilight wrote:

.....
Actually it is a choice to wear the Burqa. It is not forced on by their religion I think but has just evolved from that. ....

...It is such a common misconception that the Islamic religion forces its women to wear burqas. It is a choice...

It's a choice without being one. Islam does not require women to cover all but it is interpreted that way by some. Without making a whole big discourse as I discussed this in the previous thread, I have worked with oppressed women/women victims of domestic abuse, mainly muslim ones. Being fully covered was not their personal choice but they did it because of 'third party' pressure. Though I do agree that some women will fully cover themselves by their own choice, from what I have seen, it's not the majority.

pjfan31

redrock wrote:

pjfan31 wrote:

Digital Twilight wrote:

.....
Actually it is a choice to wear the Burqa. It is not forced on by their religion I think but has just evolved from that. ....

...It is such a common misconception that the Islamic religion forces its women to wear burqas. It is a choice...

It's a choice without being one. Islam does not require women to cover all but it is interpreted that way by some. Without making a whole big discourse as I discussed this in the previous thread, I have worked with oppressed women/women victims of domestic abuse, mainly muslim ones. Being fully covered was not their personal choice but they did it because of 'third party' pressure. Though I do agree that some women will fully cover themselves by their own choice, from what I have seen, it's not the majority.

But the same can be said for anything.... Marrying a strictly Christian man who forces you to wear full arm sleeves and skirts passed your knee.

Of course there are exceptions, I am not denying it.

Hub.

redrock wrote:

It's a choice without being one. Islam does not require women to cover all but it is interpreted that way by some. Without making a whole big discourse as I discussed this in the previous thread, I have worked with oppressed women/women victims of domestic abuse, mainly muslim ones. Being fully covered was not their personal choice but they did it because of 'third party' pressure. Though I do agree that some women will fully cover themselves by their own choice, from what I have seen, it's not the majority.

+1

Its not the majority. Besides, among those who claim they wear it out of choice, a great part say so because they're afraid of what could happen if their family circle (especially men) was to discover what they really think of it.

kenny olav

Did anyone see the discussion about this on Bill Maher's show on Friday night? Bill, despite being anti-religion, took the stance that the ban was wrong, and that there's all kinds of other silly things people wear that are not banned by the government, nor should they be. That makes sense to me. One of his guests was a Muslim and was actually in favor of the ban. I suppose it should be noted that she is a very liberal Muslim, and is in fact a lesbian - first I've heard of a lesbian Muslim. So I think because of her very strong stance against the oppressive male chauvinistic form of Islam, she favored it. I'm pretty sure the French don't care about civil or religious rights in this instance. They just don't want conservative Muslims in their country. I personally don't want any religion anywhere in the world. However, I'm not sure how we to get to that kind of world.

81

if you want to cover your face, cover your face. big friggen deal.

ShimmyMommy

81 wrote:

if you want to cover your face, cover your face. big friggen deal.

same feeling I have...if they are going to do something to hurt people, they will find a way, face covered or not.

Flutter Girl

It's important to note that Sarkozy has never exactly been secretive about wanting to eradicate all the Arabs, Blacks, and Gypsies from France..

He's already going after the Gypsies by bulldozing their homes. One can reasonably assume this ban is his way of going after the Arabs. I can't imagine what tactic he'd use for the Blacks..

Idris

kenny olav wrote:

I personally don't want any religion anywhere in the world. However, I'm not sure how we to get to that kind of world.

Ignorance and ego are the greatest threats to mankind. That's the world we should be aiming for, a world free from such chains.

You can take all the religion out of this world, out of peoples minds, but as long as ego,greed,ignorance and these kinds of things exists in ourselves, we will never be able to live in peace.

Our egos,our negative ways is whats preventing us from harmony.

kenny olav

MrAbraham wrote:

kenny olav wrote:

I personally don't want any religion anywhere in the world. However, I'm not sure how we to get to that kind of world.

Ignorance and ego are the greatest threats to mankind. That's the world we should be aiming for, a world free from such chains.

You can take all the religion out of this world, out of peoples minds, but as long as ego,greed,ignorance and these kinds of things exists in ourselves, we will never be able to live in peace.

Our egos,our negative ways is whats preventing us from harmony.

Religion has a funny way of either destroying the ego, or emboldening it. Neither should be allowed to happen.

The best cure for egotistical behavior, from what I can reckon, is honesty - Being honest with yourself, and maybe even more importantly, being honest with others.

First two things I think too many of us are not honest about are:

We don't why we are all here.

We are all here together. and we won't know peace in this world until we figure out how to share it.



Dammit, I didn't want to sound preachy.

Idris

kenny olav wrote:

MrAbraham wrote:

kenny olav wrote:

I personally don't want any religion anywhere in the world. However, I'm not sure how we to get to that kind of world.

Ignorance and ego are the greatest threats to mankind. That's the world we should be aiming for, a world free from such chains.

You can take all the religion out of this world, out of peoples minds, but as long as ego,greed,ignorance and these kinds of things exists in ourselves, we will never be able to live in peace.

Our egos,our negative ways is whats preventing us from harmony.

Religion has a funny way of either destroying the ego, or emboldening it. Neither should be allowed to happen.

The best cure for egotistical behavior, from what I can reckon, is honesty - Being honest with yourself, and maybe even more importantly, being honest with others.

First two things I think too many of us are not honest about are:

We don't why we are all here.

We are all here together. and we won't know peace in this world until we figure out how to share it.



Dammit, I didn't want to sound preachy.

I'm going to end up sounding even more preachy in a second

If we want peace, we should be honest, tell the truth. Don't lie to others, don't lie to yourself. A lie is a negative energy and that throws the balance off. Truth is positive, so it helps the positive harmony of life.

Thoughts_Arrive

I applaud this law.
If only our weak government here in Australia would enforce the same law.