sorry guy's I still don't see a real problem here, I'll admit that it is a inconvenience to the women that wear the burqa but they did leave their country to find safety or a better living elsewhere so they should abide by that country's laws.
sorry guy's I still don't see a real problem here, I'll admit that it is a inconvenience to the women that wear the burqa but they did leave their country to find safety or a better living elsewhere so they should abide by that country's laws.
Whatever people's different views on whether hijab is a personal choice of religious expression, or representative of oppression of women, (and it seems that even Muslims - and particularly Muslim women - are divided on that), I think that an unquestioning blanket ban is a short-sighted and unconstructive solution that can only lead to a greater sense of division and victimisation, whether real or imagined. You cannot apply a generic response to a deeply nuanced issue, deliberately, wilfully and needlessly ignoring the sensitivities of the matter, and expect it to be effective. Forcing your beliefs and values on others can never be as effective as educating people of them. In fact, it's far more likely to be counter-productive, to make people reject them.
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
Are there tons of women in France walking around fully concealed in their garbs?
From what I've read, there are between 350 and 2,000 women out of a total Muslim population of 4-6 million who wear face-covering veils. So you're talking about creating all this fuss for a law that applies to, at most, 1 in a thousand Muslim women, and about one in 30,000 French people.
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
Are there tons of women in France walking around fully concealed in their garbs?
From what I've read, there are between 350 and 2,000 women out of a total Muslim population of 4-6 million who wear face-covering veils. So you're talking about creating all this fuss for a law that applies to, at most, 1 in a thousand Muslim women, and about one in 30,000 French people.
see, that ban has no point then...it's just based out of fear. ridiculous, really.
(AP) PARIS - A woman has been ticketed in a suburban Paris shopping center for wearing a face veil, in the first reported sanction under a new ban on the garments, police said Tuesday.
Another woman in another Paris suburb was stopped for wearing a veil, but was let go with a warning.
----
(AP) PARIS - A woman has been ticketed in a suburban Paris shopping center for wearing a face veil, in the first reported sanction under a new ban on the garments, police said Tuesday.
Another woman in another Paris suburb was stopped for wearing a veil, but was let go with a warning.
----
I have to agree that this ban is just a bunch of political B.S., but I am intrigued by the irony of what's to come. There is going to be a lawsuit arguing that the religious right to indoctrinate a women into giving up her women's rights has been violated.
I have to agree that this ban is just a bunch of political B.S., but I am intrigued by the irony of what's to come. There is going to be a lawsuit arguing that the religious right to indoctrinate a women into giving up her women's rights has been violated.
(AP) PARIS - A woman has been ticketed in a suburban Paris shopping center for wearing a face veil, in the first reported sanction under a new ban on the garments, police said Tuesday.
Another woman in another Paris suburb was stopped for wearing a veil, but was let go with a warning.
----
Did they make her remove the veil so they could write her a ticketr. Otherwise how could they prove her identity. That said I don't see the issue wearing a veil in a suburban shopping mall to begin with.
(AP) PARIS - A woman has been ticketed in a suburban Paris shopping center for wearing a face veil, in the first reported sanction under a new ban on the garments, police said Tuesday.
Another woman in another Paris suburb was stopped for wearing a veil, but was let go with a warning.
----
Did they make her remove the veil so they could write her a ticketr. Otherwise how could they prove her identity. That said I don't see the issue wearing a veil in a suburban shopping mall to begin with.
...but then people would still have the right to refuse both of those methods based on civil rights...and does that make them automatically guilty in the eyes of law enforcement...much like choosing to continue to wear the burqa makes you guilty by religious association? :think:
When I first heard about the legislation I liked it. My thoughts were that these women were being made to wear burquas by their husbands or their religion and the law forbidding it would allow them some measure of equal rights - the right to be seen in public. Of course, that also means her right to wear burqua has been taken away, assuming she actually had a choice whether to wear one or not in the first place. I still think it is better to be prohibited from wearing one than it is to be made to wear one.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals. Ghandi
When I first heard about the legislation I liked it. My thoughts were that these women were being made to wear burquas by their husbands or their religion and the law forbidding it would allow them some measure of equal rights - the right to be seen in public. Of course, that also means her right to wear burqua has been taken away, assuming she actually had a choice whether to wear one or not in the first place. I still think it is better to be prohibited from wearing one than it is to be made to wear one.
I think this were the problem lies...government (or you or me) doesn't really know if she is actually choosing the burqa or not, so how do they have the right to take away her civil rights to wear one? KWIM?
It's a ban on ALL face covering - for security issues, though it does seem to target some more than others! There was a huge thread about it a while back. Lots of different views.
well i can't think of too many different religions that make women cover their face
i usually have mixed feelings on this topic.
personally i think its backwards and stupid that women have to cover their faces, but i understand peoples rights to religion.
Actually it is a choice to wear the Burqa. It is not forced on by their religion I think but has just evolved from that. Maybe someone with more knowledge can comment further but that is my understanding. A lot of these women choose to wear them and feel comfortable in them.
You hear people often commenting about how it is awful that women are oppressed etc but it really wasn't until recently that women in the western world achieved equal rights and there is still a big debate on how 'equal' women really are.
I'm not going to read the whole thread, but I am glad someone clarified this. It is such a common misconception that the Islamic religion forces its women to wear burqas. It is a choice. I think this highlights the need for everyone to be more educated. This isn't a criticism of the haffajappa, but if we educate ourselves more about others religions, traditions, culture and their beliefs we would be better off. If we do not educate ourselves, we face the risk of stereotyping everyone.
As the scholar Chantelle Crozette says 'we need to embrace difference, rather than suppress it'
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.....
Actually it is a choice to wear the Burqa. It is not forced on by their religion I think but has just evolved from that. ....
...It is such a common misconception that the Islamic religion forces its women to wear burqas. It is a choice...
It's a choice without being one. Islam does not require women to cover all but it is interpreted that way by some. Without making a whole big discourse as I discussed this in the previous thread, I have worked with oppressed women/women victims of domestic abuse, mainly muslim ones. Being fully covered was not their personal choice but they did it because of 'third party' pressure. Though I do agree that some women will fully cover themselves by their own choice, from what I have seen, it's not the majority.
.....
Actually it is a choice to wear the Burqa. It is not forced on by their religion I think but has just evolved from that. ....
...It is such a common misconception that the Islamic religion forces its women to wear burqas. It is a choice...
It's a choice without being one. Islam does not require women to cover all but it is interpreted that way by some. Without making a whole big discourse as I discussed this in the previous thread, I have worked with oppressed women/women victims of domestic abuse, mainly muslim ones. Being fully covered was not their personal choice but they did it because of 'third party' pressure. Though I do agree that some women will fully cover themselves by their own choice, from what I have seen, it's not the majority.
But the same can be said for anything.... Marrying a strictly Christian man who forces you to wear full arm sleeves and skirts passed your knee.
Of course there are exceptions, I am not denying it.
Sydney 11/02/2003
Sydney 14/02/2003
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Sydney 22/11/2009
EV Sydney 18/03/2011
EV Sydney 19/03/2011
EV Sydney 20/03/2011
Melbourne 24/01/2014
Sydney 26/01/2014
EV Sydney 13/02/2014
It's a choice without being one. Islam does not require women to cover all but it is interpreted that way by some. Without making a whole big discourse as I discussed this in the previous thread, I have worked with oppressed women/women victims of domestic abuse, mainly muslim ones. Being fully covered was not their personal choice but they did it because of 'third party' pressure. Though I do agree that some women will fully cover themselves by their own choice, from what I have seen, it's not the majority.
+1
Its not the majority. Besides, among those who claim they wear it out of choice, a great part say so because they're afraid of what could happen if their family circle (especially men) was to discover what they really think of it.
Did anyone see the discussion about this on Bill Maher's show on Friday night? Bill, despite being anti-religion, took the stance that the ban was wrong, and that there's all kinds of other silly things people wear that are not banned by the government, nor should they be. That makes sense to me. One of his guests was a Muslim and was actually in favor of the ban. I suppose it should be noted that she is a very liberal Muslim, and is in fact a lesbian - first I've heard of a lesbian Muslim. So I think because of her very strong stance against the oppressive male chauvinistic form of Islam, she favored it. I'm pretty sure the French don't care about civil or religious rights in this instance. They just don't want conservative Muslims in their country. I personally don't want any religion anywhere in the world. However, I'm not sure how we to get to that kind of world.
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Needing a ride to Forest Hills and a ounce of weed. Please inquire within. Thanks. Or not. Posts: 58,276
if you want to cover your face, cover your face. big friggen deal.
It's important to note that Sarkozy has never exactly been secretive about wanting to eradicate all the Arabs, Blacks, and Gypsies from France..
He's already going after the Gypsies by bulldozing their homes. One can reasonably assume this ban is his way of going after the Arabs. I can't imagine what tactic he'd use for the Blacks..
I personally don't want any religion anywhere in the world. However, I'm not sure how we to get to that kind of world.
Ignorance and ego are the greatest threats to mankind. That's the world we should be aiming for, a world free from such chains.
You can take all the religion out of this world, out of peoples minds, but as long as ego,greed,ignorance and these kinds of things exists in ourselves, we will never be able to live in peace.
Our egos,our negative ways is whats preventing us from harmony.
I personally don't want any religion anywhere in the world. However, I'm not sure how we to get to that kind of world.
Ignorance and ego are the greatest threats to mankind. That's the world we should be aiming for, a world free from such chains.
You can take all the religion out of this world, out of peoples minds, but as long as ego,greed,ignorance and these kinds of things exists in ourselves, we will never be able to live in peace.
Our egos,our negative ways is whats preventing us from harmony.
Religion has a funny way of either destroying the ego, or emboldening it. Neither should be allowed to happen.
The best cure for egotistical behavior, from what I can reckon, is honesty - Being honest with yourself, and maybe even more importantly, being honest with others.
First two things I think too many of us are not honest about are:
We don't why we are all here.
We are all here together. and we won't know peace in this world until we figure out how to share it.
I personally don't want any religion anywhere in the world. However, I'm not sure how we to get to that kind of world.
Ignorance and ego are the greatest threats to mankind. That's the world we should be aiming for, a world free from such chains.
You can take all the religion out of this world, out of peoples minds, but as long as ego,greed,ignorance and these kinds of things exists in ourselves, we will never be able to live in peace.
Our egos,our negative ways is whats preventing us from harmony.
Religion has a funny way of either destroying the ego, or emboldening it. Neither should be allowed to happen.
The best cure for egotistical behavior, from what I can reckon, is honesty - Being honest with yourself, and maybe even more importantly, being honest with others.
First two things I think too many of us are not honest about are:
We don't why we are all here.
We are all here together. and we won't know peace in this world until we figure out how to share it.
Dammit, I didn't want to sound preachy.
I'm going to end up sounding even more preachy in a second
If we want peace, we should be honest, tell the truth. Don't lie to others, don't lie to yourself. A lie is a negative energy and that throws the balance off. Truth is positive, so it helps the positive harmony of life.
Comments
or they could be French.....
ouch :oops:
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
As others have said, there are too many holes in this for it to be truly enforceable. Kind of like the stupid laws that ban texting while driving.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/ZaRoFF/95885951739?created#!/profile.php?id=100001560978213
From what I've read, there are between 350 and 2,000 women out of a total Muslim population of 4-6 million who wear face-covering veils. So you're talking about creating all this fuss for a law that applies to, at most, 1 in a thousand Muslim women, and about one in 30,000 French people.
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
see, that ban has no point then...it's just based out of fear. ridiculous, really.
good math work wolfamongwolves :thumbup:
(AP) PARIS - A woman has been ticketed in a suburban Paris shopping center for wearing a face veil, in the first reported sanction under a new ban on the garments, police said Tuesday.
Another woman in another Paris suburb was stopped for wearing a veil, but was let go with a warning.
----
what did they think was going to happen ?
Godfather.
yes, this is going to be real mess :?
Did they make her remove the veil so they could write her a ticketr. Otherwise how could they prove her identity. That said I don't see the issue wearing a veil in a suburban shopping mall to begin with.
Maybe they used a retinal scanner to ID her?
maybe a retinal scanner is what they should be spending their money on instead of civil rights-robbing legislature... :think:
or even better...
http://www.dnaindia.com/health/report_h ... st_1192247
...but then people would still have the right to refuse both of those methods based on civil rights...and does that make them automatically guilty in the eyes of law enforcement...much like choosing to continue to wear the burqa makes you guilty by religious association? :think:
I am open to those ideas...I got nothing to hide
I think this were the problem lies...government (or you or me) doesn't really know if she is actually choosing the burqa or not, so how do they have the right to take away her civil rights to wear one? KWIM?
I'm not going to read the whole thread, but I am glad someone clarified this. It is such a common misconception that the Islamic religion forces its women to wear burqas. It is a choice. I think this highlights the need for everyone to be more educated. This isn't a criticism of the haffajappa, but if we educate ourselves more about others religions, traditions, culture and their beliefs we would be better off. If we do not educate ourselves, we face the risk of stereotyping everyone.
As the scholar Chantelle Crozette says 'we need to embrace difference, rather than suppress it'
Sydney 14/02/2003
Sydney 07/11/2006
Sydney 18/11/2006
Sydney 22/11/2009
EV Sydney 18/03/2011
EV Sydney 19/03/2011
EV Sydney 20/03/2011
Melbourne 24/01/2014
Sydney 26/01/2014
EV Sydney 13/02/2014
It's a choice without being one. Islam does not require women to cover all but it is interpreted that way by some. Without making a whole big discourse as I discussed this in the previous thread, I have worked with oppressed women/women victims of domestic abuse, mainly muslim ones. Being fully covered was not their personal choice but they did it because of 'third party' pressure. Though I do agree that some women will fully cover themselves by their own choice, from what I have seen, it's not the majority.
But the same can be said for anything.... Marrying a strictly Christian man who forces you to wear full arm sleeves and skirts passed your knee.
Of course there are exceptions, I am not denying it.
Sydney 14/02/2003
Sydney 07/11/2006
Sydney 18/11/2006
Sydney 22/11/2009
EV Sydney 18/03/2011
EV Sydney 19/03/2011
EV Sydney 20/03/2011
Melbourne 24/01/2014
Sydney 26/01/2014
EV Sydney 13/02/2014
+1
Its not the majority. Besides, among those who claim they wear it out of choice, a great part say so because they're afraid of what could happen if their family circle (especially men) was to discover what they really think of it.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/ZaRoFF/95885951739?created#!/profile.php?id=100001560978213
same feeling I have...if they are going to do something to hurt people, they will find a way, face covered or not.
He's already going after the Gypsies by bulldozing their homes. One can reasonably assume this ban is his way of going after the Arabs. I can't imagine what tactic he'd use for the Blacks..
Ignorance and ego are the greatest threats to mankind. That's the world we should be aiming for, a world free from such chains.
You can take all the religion out of this world, out of peoples minds, but as long as ego,greed,ignorance and these kinds of things exists in ourselves, we will never be able to live in peace.
Our egos,our negative ways is whats preventing us from harmony.
Religion has a funny way of either destroying the ego, or emboldening it. Neither should be allowed to happen.
The best cure for egotistical behavior, from what I can reckon, is honesty - Being honest with yourself, and maybe even more importantly, being honest with others.
First two things I think too many of us are not honest about are:
We don't why we are all here.
We are all here together. and we won't know peace in this world until we figure out how to share it.
Dammit, I didn't want to sound preachy.
I'm going to end up sounding even more preachy in a second
If we want peace, we should be honest, tell the truth. Don't lie to others, don't lie to yourself. A lie is a negative energy and that throws the balance off. Truth is positive, so it helps the positive harmony of life.
If only our weak government here in Australia would enforce the same law.