Old Abe Lincoln....What a guy!

The Waiting Trophy Man

Big Drop wrote:

bennett13 wrote:

The Waiting Trophy Man wrote:

I read somwhere that he talked in a really high pitched voice. But anytime he's recreated or impersonated he's got this very deep, maculine, god-like voice. Guess it helps his image and I'm sure the repubs are responsible for it.

Lincoln was himself a Republican.

He knows, and he's just trying to get everyone's goat, so please don't feed him. If he actually thinks there is some sort of 150 year old conspiracy by a republican party today that shares little to nothing with Lincoln's republican party, he's got bigger problems than trying to uncover the truth about Lincoln's voice.

Yes I know Lincoln was a republican. And what are you talking about, lol. 150 year old conspiray? You went there? I was just saying that you never really hear his speaking voice portrayed accurately and that it probably boosts his image, that's all. And maybe not republicans, but all of his admirers. But it is funny to think he sounded less god-like and more like Mickey Mouse when he gave some of his famous speeches and quotes, lol. Don't be so sensitive.

Shawshank

Big Drop wrote:

I work for the McClurg Museum in Westfield, NY, and we've got a few artifacts of Lincoln's. Getting a piece of his hair wasn't so much a common practice back then as it was a common crime. On Lincoln's funeral train back to Illinois after his assassination in DC, pretty much everyone that could tried to get any piece of him they could to hold on to. All the buttons on his jacket were gone, most of his hair ripped out, and there are rumors that his left index finger is missing. We'll never know now, because Robert Todd Lincoln had his father buried under 10 feet of concrete, but it all seems very plausible from a historian's viewpoint.

I'm glad you've posted these quotes, Pandora. I love getting into the debate as to whether Lincoln was the great emancipator or whether was simply a modern Bismark. I love the people who argue with me that Lincoln was simply an opportunist who used the country's circumstances to vault himself into power. All you need to do is read some of what Lincoln wrote and you would know that he had a deep passion to emancipate the slaves.

I have so much I could tell you about Lincoln, Pandora, that I just can't fit it on here. If you ever want any suggestions on readings or questions about Lincoln in general, I've dedicated the past few years of my life to studying him and would be more than happy to hold a conversation about him with you!

I believe most people try to twist his views around on slavery, because in actuality slavery was not his primary concern. While he was vehemently opposed to the institution, it's eradication was not the driving force behind his presidency as many people believe.

Yes, relic hunters were a problem, but I don't remember hearing anything about him losing appendages. Also, I don't believe they pulled his hair out, since both his beard and the hair on his head were still present when he was viewed by a small group of witnesses after his exhumation. The only thing that had vanished were his eyebrows. There was no notation about the loss of any digits, just that his gloves had disintegrated. He was so well embalmed that he was perfectly recognizable even 30 years after his death.

Prior to his death, a distant relative of mine was able to secure this lock of hair. He was an assistant secretary to Lincoln, and he obtained the lock after Lincoln received a haircut shortly before the assassination. I've often wondered if it was after one particular haircut he got in Feb of 1865, which was so short it made his hair spike up and caused him to look quite a bit different. You can see a pic here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/johnmcnab/3259528911/

ed243421

"If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union."


to the lincoln buffs
i'm confused
so i'll just ask
what does the above quote mean to you?

Shawshank

ed243421 wrote:

"If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union."


to the lincoln buffs
i'm confused
so i'll just ask
what does the above quote mean to you?

It means that his personal opinion on slavery does not supersede the importance of preserving the Union. Preservation of the country was first and foremost, even if it meant maintaining the institution of slavery as it stood at that time.

Jason P

ed243421 wrote:

"If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union."


to the lincoln buffs
i'm confused
so i'll just ask
what does the above quote mean to you?

I believe that this quote was in a letter meant to gather public support in the North prior to the war. In my opinion, he was saying ye olde tyme speak that the main reason for going to war was to preserve the Union because the issue of slavery was a hot button topic. In other words, he was being a politician. I think it's worth having the supplemental text from the letter for better perspective ...

I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views.
I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men everywhere could be free.

Claireack

Thanks Pandora, great quotes.

pandora

:

Claireack wrote:

Thanks Pandora, great quotes.

:thumbup: welcome... wish I could have a mind like that...lovely was his

I'm enjoying listening to the others talk about Lincoln

Since I got old now I really like history :?

and tracing our family's ancestry too that has been a lot of fun.

Sinks in how really young America is

blondieblue227

great thread. i love history too.

ed243421

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v07/v07p319_Dickson.html

pandora

I really like this quote too....

"He has a right to criticize, who has a heart to help." magnificent ... so simple yet so perfectly right on
just awesome ...Awesome Abe!

Break The Sky

Shawshank wrote:

Big Drop wrote:

I work for the McClurg Museum in Westfield, NY, and we've got a few artifacts of Lincoln's. Getting a piece of his hair wasn't so much a common practice back then as it was a common crime. On Lincoln's funeral train back to Illinois after his assassination in DC, pretty much everyone that could tried to get any piece of him they could to hold on to. All the buttons on his jacket were gone, most of his hair ripped out, and there are rumors that his left index finger is missing. We'll never know now, because Robert Todd Lincoln had his father buried under 10 feet of concrete, but it all seems very plausible from a historian's viewpoint.

I'm glad you've posted these quotes, Pandora. I love getting into the debate as to whether Lincoln was the great emancipator or whether was simply a modern Bismark. I love the people who argue with me that Lincoln was simply an opportunist who used the country's circumstances to vault himself into power. All you need to do is read some of what Lincoln wrote and you would know that he had a deep passion to emancipate the slaves.

I have so much I could tell you about Lincoln, Pandora, that I just can't fit it on here. If you ever want any suggestions on readings or questions about Lincoln in general, I've dedicated the past few years of my life to studying him and would be more than happy to hold a conversation about him with you!

I believe most people try to twist his views around on slavery, because in actuality slavery was not his primary concern. While he was vehemently opposed to the institution, it's eradication was not the driving force behind his presidency as many people believe.

Yes, relic hunters were a problem, but I don't remember hearing anything about him losing appendages. Also, I don't believe they pulled his hair out, since both his beard and the hair on his head were still present when he was viewed by a small group of witnesses after his exhumation. The only thing that had vanished were his eyebrows. There was no notation about the loss of any digits, just that his gloves had disintegrated. He was so well embalmed that he was perfectly recognizable even 30 years after his death.

Prior to his death, a distant relative of mine was able to secure this lock of hair. He was an assistant secretary to Lincoln, and he obtained the lock after Lincoln received a haircut shortly before the assassination. I've often wondered if it was after one particular haircut he got in Feb of 1865, which was so short it made his hair spike up and caused him to look quite a bit different. You can see a pic here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/johnmcnab/3259528911/

This daguerreotype is wonderful. It really kind of helps to make him seem human since he's such a polarized figure. Even if your piece of hair wasn't from his corpse, you still have a piece of a flag from his funeral train, yes? My museum has some adornment from his funeral train. People wanted to grab every piece of Lincoln they could as his funeral train passed through. I hope I didn't sensationalize what I meant. Not to say Lincoln was bald by the time he got back to Illinois, but from the personal accounts I've read of those close to him, thieves were a problem.

One of the reasons Lincoln became president over other candidates is that his policy on slavery was a very mild one. Candidates such as William Seward were extraordinarily outspoken against slavery. Lincoln had to do his best to make the Civil War winnable, and with northern states fighting for the confederacy such as Maryland which kept slaves, Lincoln couldn't do anything drastic to encourage them to break away and join the south. There is a reason the Emancipation Proclamation only freed the slaves in the south. Lincoln was getting around to it, he just had to do it in a timely manner. I believe that Lincoln did have a moral obligation to emancipate all the slaves, he just knew he couldn't do it all at once. I believe that Lincoln's reactions regarding the Trent Affair give good evidence as to the moral obligation Lincoln had to freeing the slaves.

As a historian, it's not my job to glorify the actions of Lincoln, it's to study them and identify the consequences and ramifications of them objectively and histriographically. Though I do have my own opinions, I do my best not to let them supersede what the research shows.

I love hearing other people's opinions as well, as long as they are equally unbiased as mine.

gimmesometruth27

i love this letter that Lincoln allegedly wrote to Ms. Bixby, a grieving mother from Boston in 1864 near the end of the Civil War. there is some debate as to whether or not Lincoln actually wrote it, (his secretary is the rumored author) but even if he didn't it is still a beautiful piece of writing. nobody ever writes with such eloquence these days....

Executive Mansion,
Washington, Nov. 21, 1864.

Dear Madam,

I have been shown in the files of the War Department a statement of the Adjutant General of Massachusetts that you are the mother of five sons who have died gloriously on the field of battle. I feel how weak and fruitless must be any word of mine which should attempt to beguile you from the grief of a loss so overwhelming. But I cannot refrain from tendering you the consolation that may be found in the thanks of the Republic they died to save. I pray that our Heavenly Father may assuage the anguish of your bereavement, and leave you only the cherished memory of the loved and lost, and the solemn pride that must be yours to have laid so costly a sacrifice upon the altar of freedom.

Yours, very sincerely and respectfully,

A. Lincoln


here is a wiki link that talks about this letter and the circumstances surrounding it's inspiration and writing...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bixby_letter

Shawshank

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

i love this letter that Lincoln allegedly wrote to Ms. Bixby, a grieving mother from Boston in 1864 near the end of the Civil War. there is some debate as to whether or not Lincoln actually wrote it, (his secretary is the rumored author) but even if he didn't it is still a beautiful piece of writing. nobody ever writes with such eloquence these days....

Executive Mansion,
Washington, Nov. 21, 1864.

Dear Madam,

I have been shown in the files of the War Department a statement of the Adjutant General of Massachusetts that you are the mother of five sons who have died gloriously on the field of battle. I feel how weak and fruitless must be any word of mine which should attempt to beguile you from the grief of a loss so overwhelming. But I cannot refrain from tendering you the consolation that may be found in the thanks of the Republic they died to save. I pray that our Heavenly Father may assuage the anguish of your bereavement, and leave you only the cherished memory of the loved and lost, and the solemn pride that must be yours to have laid so costly a sacrifice upon the altar of freedom.

Yours, very sincerely and respectfully,

A. Lincoln


here is a wiki link that talks about this letter and the circumstances surrounding it's inspiration and writing...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bixby_letter

Without a doubt one of the greatest examples of Lincoln's eloquence and compassion. :thumbup:

pandora

"To ease another’s heartache is to forget one’s own."

ed243421

for the hypocrites

In his 1858 campaign in Illinois for the Senate against Stephen Douglas, Lincoln spoke differently depending on the views of his listeners (and also perhaps depending on how close it was to the election). Speaking in northern Illinois in July (in Chicago), he said:
Let us discard all this quibbling about this man and the other man, this race and that race and the other race being inferior, and therefore they must be placed in an inferior position. Let us discard all these things, and unite as one people throughout this land, until we shall once more stand up declaring that all men are created equal.
Two months later in Charleston, in southern Illinois, Lincoln told his audience:
I will say, then, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races (applause); that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people.. . .
And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and J as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.

are those thoughts current and just heartwarming?
do they flow with eloquence and compassion?

Shawshank

ed243421 wrote:

for the hypocrites

In his 1858 campaign in Illinois for the Senate against Stephen Douglas, Lincoln spoke differently depending on the views of his listeners (and also perhaps depending on how close it was to the election). Speaking in northern Illinois in July (in Chicago), he said:
Let us discard all this quibbling about this man and the other man, this race and that race and the other race being inferior, and therefore they must be placed in an inferior position. Let us discard all these things, and unite as one people throughout this land, until we shall once more stand up declaring that all men are created equal.
Two months later in Charleston, in southern Illinois, Lincoln told his audience:
I will say, then, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races (applause); that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people.. . .
And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and J as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.

are those thoughts current and just heartwarming?
do they flow with eloquence and compassion?

It's clear you have a chip on your shoulder for Lincoln, and that's cool. My first post, I specifically said he wasn't the saint that he's made out to be these days. You're only about 150 years late, but I'll give you a newsflash....nearly everyone was racist in that era by today's standards. If you spend a little more time reading, you'll actually find even more scandalous racism :roll: when you find that he actually considered establishing a colony for slaves in Central America and have them shipped there. Lincoln was undoubtedly a firm believer in equal human rights, which is where his disdain for slavery rested. In other words, equality for him was just as he read it in the Declaration of Independence...."all men are created equal ... with certain unalienable rights", those rights being Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. Not necessarily the right to vote, serve in government, etc. You do realize that women also had only slightly more rights than slaves back then don't you? They were by no means treated equal. So by today's standards they were all sexists as well.

Just to be clear, there was never a single drop of blood spilled on any battlefield of the Civil War for or against slavery. Just as Lincoln said, he would do whatever needed to be done to preserve the Union, with or without slavery. That doesn't mean he necessarily supported the institution itself.

ed243421

Shawshank wrote:

ed243421 wrote:

for the hypocrites

In his 1858 campaign in Illinois for the Senate against Stephen Douglas, Lincoln spoke differently depending on the views of his listeners (and also perhaps depending on how close it was to the election). Speaking in northern Illinois in July (in Chicago), he said:
Let us discard all this quibbling about this man and the other man, this race and that race and the other race being inferior, and therefore they must be placed in an inferior position. Let us discard all these things, and unite as one people throughout this land, until we shall once more stand up declaring that all men are created equal.
Two months later in Charleston, in southern Illinois, Lincoln told his audience:
I will say, then, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races (applause); that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people.. . .
And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and J as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.

are those thoughts current and just heartwarming?
do they flow with eloquence and compassion?

It's clear you have a chip on your shoulder for Lincoln, and that's cool. My first post, I specifically said he wasn't the saint that he's made out to be these days. You're only about 150 years late, but I'll give you a newsflash....nearly everyone was racist in that era by today's standards. If you spend a little more time reading, you'll actually find even more scandalous racism :roll: when you find that he actually considered establishing a colony for slaves in Central America and have them shipped there. Lincoln was undoubtedly a firm believer in equal human rights, which is where his disdain for slavery rested. In other words, equality for him was just as he read it in the Declaration of Independence...."all men are created equal ... with certain unalienable rights", those rights being Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. Not necessarily the right to vote, serve in government, etc. You do realize that women also had only slightly more rights than slaves back then don't you? They were by no means treated equal. So by today's standards they were all sexists as well.

Just to be clear, there was never a single drop of blood spilled on any battlefield of the Civil War for or against slavery. Just as Lincoln said, he would do whatever needed to be done to preserve the Union, with or without slavery. That doesn't mean he necessarily supported the institution itself.

"Lincoln was undoubtedly a firm believer in equal human rights, which is where his disdain for slavery rested."

abe had this to say about that

"I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races (applause); that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people.. . .
And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and J as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."

ed243421

you want eloquence and compassion

this was what john brown said before he was executed for trying to end slavery in 1859

"I have, may it please the Court, a few words to say.
In the first place, I deny everything but what I have all along admitted, the design on my part to free the slaves. I intended certainly to have made a clean thing of that matter, as I did last winter, when I went into Missouri and there took slaves without the snapping of a gun on either side, moved them through the country, and finally left them in Canada. I designed to have done the same thing again, on a larger scale. That was all I intended. I never did intend murder, or treason, or the destruction of property, or to excite or incite slaves to rebellion, or to make insurrection.
I have another objection; and that is, it is unjust that I should suffer such a penalty. Had I interfered in the manner which I admit, and which I admit has been fairly proved (for I admire the truthfulness and candor of the greater portion of the witnesses who have testified in this case), had I so interfered in behalf of the rich, the powerful, the intelligent, the so-called great, or in behalf of any of their friends, either father, mother, brother, sister, wife, or children, or any of that class, and suffered and sacrificed what I have in this interference, it would have been all right; and every man in this court would have deemed it an act worthy of reward rather than punishment.
This court acknowledges, as I suppose, the validity of the law of God. I see a book kissed here which I suppose to be the Bible, or at least the New Testament. That teaches me that all things whatsoever I would that men should do to me, I should do even so to them. It teaches me, further, to "remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them." I endeavored to act up to that instruction. I say, I am yet too young to understand that God is any respecter of persons. I believe that to have interfered as I have done as I have always freely admitted I have done in behalf of His despised poor, was not wrong, but right. Now, if it is deemed necessary that I should forfeit my life for the furtherance of the ends of justice, and mingle my blood further with the blood of my children and with the blood of millions in this slave country whose rights are disregarded by wicked, cruel, and unjust enactments, I submit; so let it be done!
Let me say one word further.
I feel entirely satisfied with the treatment I have received on my trial. Considering all the circumstances. it has been more generous than I expected. But I feel no consciousness of guilt. I have stated from the first what was my intention and what was not. I never had any design against the life of any person, nor any disposition to commit treason, or excite slaves to rebel, or make any general insurrection. I never encouraged any man to do so, but always discouraged any idea of that kind.
Let me say, also, a word in regard to the statements made by some of those connected with me. I hear it has been stated by some of them that I have induced them to join me. But the contrary is true. I do not say this to injure them, but as regretting their weakness. There is not one of them but joined me of his own accord, and the greater part of them at their own expense. A number of them I never saw, and never had a word of conversation with, till the day they came to me; and that was for the purpose I have stated.
Now I have done."

his attempt failed and he was hung

the us civil war did not end slavery
took over 300,000 lives
and lincoln is the hero?

Shawshank

ed243421 wrote:

"Lincoln was undoubtedly a firm believer in equal human rights, which is where his disdain for slavery rested."

abe had this to say about that

"I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races (applause); that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people.. . .
And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and J as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."

Yeah, I read that the first time you copied and pasted it. Social and political equality of that time had absolutely nothing to do with a belief in equal human rights (i.e. Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness).

Shawshank

ed243421 wrote:

you want eloquence and compassion

this was what john brown said before he was executed for trying to end slavery in 1859

"I have, may it please the Court, a few words to say.
In the first place, I deny everything but what I have all along admitted, the design on my part to free the slaves. I intended certainly to have made a clean thing of that matter, as I did last winter, when I went into Missouri and there took slaves without the snapping of a gun on either side, moved them through the country, and finally left them in Canada. I designed to have done the same thing again, on a larger scale. That was all I intended. I never did intend murder, or treason, or the destruction of property, or to excite or incite slaves to rebellion, or to make insurrection.
I have another objection; and that is, it is unjust that I should suffer such a penalty. Had I interfered in the manner which I admit, and which I admit has been fairly proved (for I admire the truthfulness and candor of the greater portion of the witnesses who have testified in this case), had I so interfered in behalf of the rich, the powerful, the intelligent, the so-called great, or in behalf of any of their friends, either father, mother, brother, sister, wife, or children, or any of that class, and suffered and sacrificed what I have in this interference, it would have been all right; and every man in this court would have deemed it an act worthy of reward rather than punishment.
This court acknowledges, as I suppose, the validity of the law of God. I see a book kissed here which I suppose to be the Bible, or at least the New Testament. That teaches me that all things whatsoever I would that men should do to me, I should do even so to them. It teaches me, further, to "remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them." I endeavored to act up to that instruction. I say, I am yet too young to understand that God is any respecter of persons. I believe that to have interfered as I have done as I have always freely admitted I have done in behalf of His despised poor, was not wrong, but right. Now, if it is deemed necessary that I should forfeit my life for the furtherance of the ends of justice, and mingle my blood further with the blood of my children and with the blood of millions in this slave country whose rights are disregarded by wicked, cruel, and unjust enactments, I submit; so let it be done!
Let me say one word further.
I feel entirely satisfied with the treatment I have received on my trial. Considering all the circumstances. it has been more generous than I expected. But I feel no consciousness of guilt. I have stated from the first what was my intention and what was not. I never had any design against the life of any person, nor any disposition to commit treason, or excite slaves to rebel, or make any general insurrection. I never encouraged any man to do so, but always discouraged any idea of that kind.
Let me say, also, a word in regard to the statements made by some of those connected with me. I hear it has been stated by some of them that I have induced them to join me. But the contrary is true. I do not say this to injure them, but as regretting their weakness. There is not one of them but joined me of his own accord, and the greater part of them at their own expense. A number of them I never saw, and never had a word of conversation with, till the day they came to me; and that was for the purpose I have stated.
Now I have done."

his attempt failed and he was hung

the us civil war did not end slavery
took over 300,000 lives
and lincoln is the hero?

John Brown was crazy, but he had good intentions. However, you can't take over a U.S. Armory with the intent of inciting insurrection without meeting your fate at the end of a rope.

The war actually resulted in the deaths of well over 600,000. I don't necessarily look at Lincoln as a hero, but he was the right man at the right time.