there is some youtube videos of hunters blowing away some bobcats and coyotes then laughing and high fiving as the coyote is writhing in pain as it dies.
A bow hunter taking out a cougar in a tree with a bow and a pack of dogs…..20 ft away from a treed cougar and planting an arrow in it.
All for fun.
You have to be a sick fuck to do that.
You certainly would have to be a sick fuck to get enjoyment out of that. On the other hand, when it comes to coyotes especially, there are times when predation warrants these tactics. Should it be a chest thumping ego trip? Uh, hell to the no!!! But you can't leave them to wreak havoc on all the other livestock and animals on your property.
my point is, just as there are species we know only from books, that is the reality for some people on this earth now. They wont ever get to see a tiger or a gorilla not because of the threat of extinction, but because they dont have and will never have the means to see these creatures either in the wild or in captivity... So to them, they may as well be extinct.
ok, I still don't get it. is this in some way saying extinction is no big deal because it's all about human perception?
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it makes me sick. I just watched two shows last night on animal planet about The Bear Man of Kangulazkakskakazishhhharoo (can't remember the name of the place). He has a relationship with a bunch of different families of bears in Russia. It was awesome. Then hunting season started. Mother Bear lost a few of her cubs to the senseless murder of these wonderful creatures. Why do people do this? What is it that gives man a woody to kill another living being? What severly demented person gets joy out of killing?
Sport hunters are cowards.
This guy single-handedly got the hunting season down from 52 weeks per year to 6. that's INCREDIBLE. So something CAN be done. People like that.
It made me so sad that people do this. This mother bear actually mourned her lost young. She was depressed for a number of days, until she had no choice but to move on for the sake of her other cubs.
HOW WOULD YOU FEEL IF YOU WERE HUNTED FOR SPORT, YOUR CHILDREN WERE KILLED, FOR THE JOLLIES OF A "SUPERIOR BEING" WHO HIDES AT THE TOP OF A TREE WITH A WEAPON??? COME DOWN BIG MAN, AND SEE HOW YOU FARE. :evil:
my point is, just as there are species we know only from books, that is the reality for some people on this earth now. They wont ever get to see a tiger or a gorilla not because of the threat of extinction, but because they dont have and will never have the means to see these creatures either in the wild or in captivity... So to them, they may as well be extinct.
Im afraid you've lost me too. I understand what you say, but the point of this is what?
Polar Bears may as well die because the natives of Langkawi may never see them?
I got into a debate last year in thailand with a dude from South Africa - he ran a game reserve in Joberg.
He was a hunter - self confessed and got a kick out of it. The fact that i found that disturbing and disgusting is not the point for now. He however argued quite well that through what he was doing - selling animals to be shot by thugs - was the most effective method of conservation in Africa at the moment. He had bred more lions and elephants than any similar conservation programme in the area. Because there was a demand to kill these majestic creatures there was a demand to keep them alive and make sure they can reproduce.
Twisted logic for sure, but sadly it works, and what a shame that in this day we are conserving species because people like to kill them.
I work with a guy who is a member of a fox hunt. We fall out most weeks about his enjoyment of the 'sport'. I find it amazing still that despite any argument about them being pests and vermin etc, that anyone can ENJOY the hunt. Its just mind boggling totally to me.
you know it troubles me greatly that one day you may only see a tiger in a zoo. My kids may only see a Gorilla in a book. and that one of mans closest relatives, the Chimpanzee, can be bought for a premium on the black market as a piece of meat. It all seems so wrong, and other than give what i can to the WWF and other like minded people there seems very little that can be done about it. .
We have a tendency to think of endangered species as the ones you mention, tigers, gorillas, pandas... but there are so many less exotic animals such as some ferrets (which we might think of as common pests) and an enormous amount of insects. Insects may seem a nuisance and 'icky' to a lot of people, but the extinction of some species have a roll on effect on our ecosystem, pollination and ultimately species of plants, food for others and for us.
You make a great point to be fair, I read a lot of studies on biodiversity, the amazon, the illegal logging industry, the whale and dolphin meat trade, bushmeat etc, and read publications like the national Geographic and the Scientist, and watch pretty much most days something on Eden, animal planet, discovery etc, and the facts and statistics of what we lose every day is unreal....and 99% of the time its a result of human greed, and the human need. The fact that demand has never been higher for cheap wood products, flat pack crap, means that sadly more plants will become extinct every day as the world cannot stop the destruction that attracts.
We can lose around 75 species a day they predict. every day.
I think i mention Rhino's tigers elephants, chimps etc because they are the beacons of conservation along with the great Panda, they are the things that have the power to drive change, to stir up enough emotion at the thought of their loss for people to actually act and make change. But is the damage already done?
my point is, just as there are species we know only from books, that is the reality for some people on this earth now. They wont ever get to see a tiger or a gorilla not because of the threat of extinction, but because they dont have and will never have the means to see these creatures either in the wild or in captivity... So to them, they may as well be extinct.
ok, I still don't get it. is this in some way saying extinction is no big deal because it's all about human perception?
well tbh im wondering just how big a deal it is. now before you go jumping all over me, it is not my belief that we should just go around killing whatever the hell we want and destroying the environment around us, thus destroying other species(and our own) ecosystem/s.. im just trying to put it in perspective. during her life, earth has managed to survive many species extinctions and now because of our big brain we seem to be freaking out about it. and as i said, there are species on this earth that some people are unaware of and them and others will never come into contact with and will never have the opportunity to interact in, whether it be in the wild or in the inhumane confines of zoos... millions of people in more than a few cases.
im just wondering where the balance is.
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my point is, just as there are species we know only from books, that is the reality for some people on this earth now. They wont ever get to see a tiger or a gorilla not because of the threat of extinction, but because they dont have and will never have the means to see these creatures either in the wild or in captivity... So to them, they may as well be extinct.
ok, I still don't get it. is this in some way saying extinction is no big deal because it's all about human perception?
well tbh im wondering just how big a deal it is. now before you go jumping all over me, it is not my belief that we should just go around killing whatever the hell we want and destroying the environment around us, thus destroying other species(and our own) ecosystem/s.. im just trying to put it in perspective. during her life, earth has managed to survive many species extinctions and now because of our big brain we seem to be freaking out about it. and as i said, there are species on this earth that some people are unaware of and them and others will never come into contact with and will never have the opportunity to interact in, whether it be in the wild or in the inhumane confines of zoos... millions of people in more than a few cases.
im just wondering where the balance is.
fair enough, my wife has a similar view to animals, she isnt that interested and doesnt get too upset about their habitat loss and potential extinction. IMO because it doesnt directly effect her, and that she cant see it happening, and that elephants are unimportant to her, is a wholly insular way of thinking. She doesnt get how I can get so upset about airport officials opening a container to find 386 elephant tusks on its way to china (last week), or gorillas being killed for their hands, or the slaughter of dolphins, or rhinos being killed for their horns, but I do, because they are amazing creatures, and its criminal that we are so destroying them to the point of wipe out in a time period of only 50 years in some cases.....when they have roamed this planet as have we for many thousands.
well tbh im wondering just how big a deal it is. now before you go jumping all over me, it is not my belief that we should just go around killing whatever the hell we want and destroying the environment around us, thus destroying other species(and our own) ecosystem/s.. im just trying to put it in perspective. during her life, earth has managed to survive many species extinctions and now because of our big brain we seem to be freaking out about it. and as i said, there are species on this earth that some people are unaware of and them and others will never come into contact with and will never have the opportunity to interact in, whether it be in the wild or in the inhumane confines of zoos... millions of people in more than a few cases.
im just wondering where the balance is.
fair enough, my wife has a similar view to animals, she isnt that interested and doesnt get too upset about their habitat loss and potential extinction. IMO because it doesnt directly effect her, and that she cant see it happening, and that elephants are unimportant to her, is a wholly insular way of thinking. She doesnt get how I can get so upset about airport officials opening a container to find 386 elephant tusks on its way to china (last week), or gorillas being killed for their hands, or the slaughter of dolphins, or rhinos being killed for their horns, but I do, because they are amazing creatures, and its criminal that we are so destroying them to the point of wipe out in a time period of only 50 years in some cases.....when they have roamed this planet as have we for many thousands.
no your wife and i do not share a similiar view towards animals. tell me how you came to that conclusion.
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well tbh im wondering just how big a deal it is. now before you go jumping all over me, it is not my belief that we should just go around killing whatever the hell we want and destroying the environment around us, thus destroying other species(and our own) ecosystem/s.. im just trying to put it in perspective. during her life, earth has managed to survive many species extinctions and now because of our big brain we seem to be freaking out about it. and as i said, there are species on this earth that some people are unaware of and them and others will never come into contact with and will never have the opportunity to interact in, whether it be in the wild or in the inhumane confines of zoos... millions of people in more than a few cases.
im just wondering where the balance is.
fair enough, my wife has a similar view to animals, she isnt that interested and doesnt get too upset about their habitat loss and potential extinction. IMO because it doesnt directly effect her, and that she cant see it happening, and that elephants are unimportant to her, is a wholly insular way of thinking. She doesnt get how I can get so upset about airport officials opening a container to find 386 elephant tusks on its way to china (last week), or gorillas being killed for their hands, or the slaughter of dolphins, or rhinos being killed for their horns, but I do, because they are amazing creatures, and its criminal that we are so destroying them to the point of wipe out in a time period of only 50 years in some cases.....when they have roamed this planet as have we for many thousands.
no your wife and i do not share a similiar view towards animals. tell me how you came to that conclusion.
no your wife and i do not share a similiar view towards animals. tell me how you came to that conclusion.
because neither of you consider it a big deal?
no.. i never said it wasnt a big deal. i was questioning just how big a deal it is.
humans are the dominant species on this planet... like it or not. am i thrilled with how we destroy environments with seemingly disregard for the other species that inhabit it? no i am. i think humans are the most destructive force on earth. we are so self important... and objectively im wondering where we fit into the big scheme of things. im yet to figure it out yet. sometimes i think that we act out of guilt.. tis as if we see ourselves as this powerful force, albeit destructive and we feel the need to counter the bad. now... im not saying this is wrong or misguided.. im just trying to figure out the balance.
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no your wife and i do not share a similiar view towards animals. tell me how you came to that conclusion.
because neither of you consider it a big deal?
no.. i never said it wasnt a big deal. i was questioning just how big a deal it is.
humans are the dominant species on this planet... like it or not. am i thrilled with how we destroy environments with seemingly disregard for the other species that inhabit it? no i am. i think humans are the most destructive force on earth. we are so self important... and objectively im wondering where we fit into the big scheme of things. im yet to figure it out yet. sometimes i think that we act out of guilt.. tis as if we see ourselves as this powerful force, albeit destructive and we feel the need to counter the bad. now... im not saying this is wrong or misguided.. im just trying to figure out the balance.
Sure Ok, it wasnt intended to be an attack on you - on the contrary - people have different ideas on what is important, and people have different priorities.....People's priorities are not always animals, and despite being one of my biggest loves in life, many people dont have that connection. I feel strongly about these things, many dont, neither is right or wrong. I brought my wife in as I clearly misread your intention (apologies for that), as we often have this little debate, she's just simply not as interested in animals as me, the thing that I struggle to reconcile in that instance is that she genuinely isnt so concerned about it....she cant even understand why i am.....but everyones different....and thats ok....
the people who cause me the biggest grievance is those who kill for fun, and those whom buy products of animals on the endangered list illegally fuelling the huge trade on the black market......after all is it hard to see why a poor indian man may go and hunt a tiger when he can feed his family for 3 years off one kill....or they may have to wait for their next meal....no the problem lies with those people buying these things. Dear god you can still order polar bear skins on the internet.....no need at all.
Sure Ok, it wasnt intended to be an attack on you - on the contrary - people have different ideas on what is important, and people have different priorities.....People's priorities are not always animals, and despite being one of my biggest loves in life, many people dont have that connection. I feel strongly about these things, many dont, neither is right or wrong. I brought my wife in as I clearly misread your intention (apologies for that), as we often have this little debate, she's just simply not as interested in animals as me, the thing that I struggle to reconcile in that instance is that she genuinely isnt so concerned about it....she cant even understand why i am.....but everyones different....and thats ok....
the people who cause me the biggest grievance is those who kill for fun, and those whom buy products of animals on the endangered list illegally fuelling the huge trade on the black market......after all is it hard to see why a poor indian man may go and hunt a tiger when he can feed his family for 3 years off one kill....or they may have to wait for their next meal....no the problem lies with those people buying these things. Dear god you can still order polar bear skins on the internet.....no need at all.
dont worry... i can handle it. heck i nearly threw up when i crushed a huntsman spider in my toilet window.
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it makes me sick. I just watched two shows last night on animal planet about The Bear Man of Kangulazkakskakazishhhharoo (can't remember the name of the place). He has a relationship with a bunch of different families of bears in Russia. It was awesome. Then hunting season started. Mother Bear lost a few of her cubs to the senseless murder of these wonderful creatures. Why do people do this? What is it that gives man a woody to kill another living being? What severly demented person gets joy out of killing?
Sport hunters are cowards.
This guy single-handedly got the hunting season down from 52 weeks per year to 6. that's INCREDIBLE. So something CAN be done. People like that.
It made me so sad that people do this. This mother bear actually mourned her lost young. She was depressed for a number of days, until she had no choice but to move on for the sake of her other cubs.
HOW WOULD YOU FEEL IF YOU WERE HUNTED FOR SPORT, YOUR CHILDREN WERE KILLED, FOR THE JOLLIES OF A "SUPERIOR BEING" WHO HIDES AT THE TOP OF A TREE WITH A WEAPON??? COME DOWN BIG MAN, AND SEE HOW YOU FARE. :evil:
All that matters to people is that human beings can live their lives of convenience at the expense of every other species on the planet. Not only am i embarrassed to be a part of American society (collective IQ 47), but I am ashamed at times to be a apart of the human race. Maybe in my next life I will be a Tralfamadorian.
it makes me sick. I just watched two shows last night on animal planet about The Bear Man of Kangulazkakskakazishhhharoo (can't remember the name of the place). He has a relationship with a bunch of different families of bears in Russia. It was awesome. Then hunting season started. Mother Bear lost a few of her cubs to the senseless murder of these wonderful creatures. Why do people do this? What is it that gives man a woody to kill another living being? What severly demented person gets joy out of killing?
Sport hunters are cowards.
This guy single-handedly got the hunting season down from 52 weeks per year to 6. that's INCREDIBLE. So something CAN be done. People like that.
It made me so sad that people do this. This mother bear actually mourned her lost young. She was depressed for a number of days, until she had no choice but to move on for the sake of her other cubs.
HOW WOULD YOU FEEL IF YOU WERE HUNTED FOR SPORT, YOUR CHILDREN WERE KILLED, FOR THE JOLLIES OF A "SUPERIOR BEING" WHO HIDES AT THE TOP OF A TREE WITH A WEAPON??? COME DOWN BIG MAN, AND SEE HOW YOU FARE. :evil:
Just perfect. Well said that man.
Hunting for fun is utterly revolting.
I do not know about other countries but here in Canada hunting is highly regulated and you can only hunt for substance. Now Coyote's are hunted because they become a threat to farmers livestock, people's pets and some instance's small children.
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HANOI, Vietnam – Hundreds of people are working around the clock to clean up a lake in the heart of Vietnam's capital in hopes of saving a rare, ailing giant turtle that is considered a sacred symbol of Hanoi.
Some experts fear pollution at Hoan Kiem Lake is killing the giant freshwater turtle, which has a soft shell the size of a desk. It is one of the world's most-endangered species, with only four known to be alive worldwide.
Teams of people are cleaning debris, pumping fresh water into the lake and using sandbags to expand a tiny island to serve as a "turtle hospital." The rescuers may even try to net the animal for the first time as part of the effort.
The Hoan Kiem turtle is rooted in Vietnamese folklore, and some even believe the animal that lives in the lake today is the same mythical creature that helped a Vietnamese king fend off the Chinese nearly six centuries ago.
It swims alone in the lake and in the past has been glimpsed only rarely sticking its wrinkled neck out of the water. But it has recently surfaced much more frequently, alarming the public with visible raw open wounds on its head, legs and shell.
Meetings were called, a council was established and 10 government agencies were put to work to try to save it.
It's the first time anyone has tried to capture the turtle, and Vietnamese have flocked to the lake in hopes of spotting it — a sign of good luck — as newspapers run daily articles about its plight.
"For the Vietnamese, the Hoan Kiem lake turtle is the most sacred thing," said retired state employee Nguyen Thi Xuan, 63, who traveled from a suburban district to try to get a glimpse of the animal. "He has helped the Vietnamese to defeat foreign invaders and also helped the country to have peace. I hope he will live forever."
The lake, which measures one mile (1.6 kilometers) is a city landmark for its curved red bridge leading to a temple on a tiny island. Weeping willows and other leafy trees shade a sidewalk that rings the water, a popular site for tourists and Hanoians to exercise and relax.
But the lake has been trashed with everything from bricks and concrete to plastic bags and raw sewage. It is not uncommon to see men urinating directly into the murky water.
The pollution is slowly killing the Hoan Kiem turtle, a Vietnamese biologist warned.
"I believe the injuries were caused by sharp edges from debris in the lake," said Ha Dinh Duc, who has studied the lone turtle for 20 years and considers himself its caretaker. "The poor quality of water also makes the conditions unbearable for the turtle."
The turtle rescue team hopes to coax the creature onto land so they can treat the wounds. Sandbags have been built up to expand a small island for it to emerge. But if it does not crawl onto the platform by itself, a net will be used to capture it.
Veterinarians will then work at the so-called "turtle hospital" to take skin and shell samples for analysis, and will then determine how to treat it. Photos reveal scars and pink open sores on its head and legs. A white fungus-like material also covers a large section of its shell, which also has lesions.
One American turtle expert, who has lived in Vietnam for 14 years, says he's not convinced the ailments are life-threatening because the creature's behavior has not changed significantly. It is surfacing on warm days, as it should, and appears to be swimming freely and feeding.
"Every couple years here in Hanoi, people start saying the Hoan Kiem turtle is sick," said Douglas Hendrie, a technical adviser for the nonprofit Education for Nature Vietnam and founder of the Asian Turtle Program. "I wouldn't panic yet."
No one knows the turtle's age or gender, but Hendrie said turtle experts estimate it is probably between 80 and 100-plus years old. They believe it is probably the most endangered freshwater turtle species in the world. It weighs about 440 pounds (200 kilograms) and its massive shell stretches 6 feet long (1.8 meters long) and 4 feet wide (1.2 meters wide). There is one other turtle of the same species, known as Rafeteus swinhoei, in Vietnam and two are in a Chinese zoo.
Legend has it that in the mid-15th century, King Le Loi defeated Chinese invaders with a magic sword given to him by the gods. After the victory, the king was said to be boating on the lake when a giant golden turtle rose to the surface and snatched the sword in its mouth before plunging deep into the water to return it to its divine owners.
The lake was later renamed "Ho Hoan Kiem," which means "Lake of the Returned Sword," and the tale became an important part of Vietnamese culture that continues to be taught in school and performed at popular water puppetry shows.
But real or mythical, the turtle that swims in the lake is a legend to the Vietnamese people who call him "cu rua," a word of great respect reserved for great-grandfathers.
"I prayed at a temple this morning hoping to have a glimpse of him," said Vu Thi Dung, a 58-year-old farmer who traveled 60 miles (100 kilometers) for her opportunity to see the turtle. "I had a chance to see him three times already. I'm really glad. It's urgent to treat him and clean up the lake."
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
animal/plant extinction at the hand of humans makes me angry. the natural extinction of a species is something we ought not get involved in. if it's that species' time to go, let it be. that's for mother nature to decide.
I just wanted to say that as I don't know if people make any distinction on what endangered species we should actively try to save. are there species of animals or plants that are not being affected by human presence that we are trying to protect?
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i don't think they are totally wiped out, i know a few people who have seen them pretty recently.
don't compete; coexist
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GENEVA — The Western Black Rhino of Africa was declared officially extinct Thursday by a leading conservation group.
The International Union for Conservation of Nature said that two other subspecies of rhinoceros were close to meeting the same fate.
The Northern White Rhino of central Africa is now "possibly extinct" in the wild and the Javan Rhino "probably extinct" in Vietnam, after poachers killed the last animal there in 2010.
A small but declining population survives on the Indonesian island of Java.
IUCN said Thursday that a quarter of all mammals are at risk of extinction, according to its updated Red List of endangered species.
'Stewards of the Earth'
But the group added that species such as the Southern White Rhino and the Przewalski's Horse have been brought back from the brink with successful conservation programs.
"Human beings are stewards of the Earth and we are responsible for protecting the species that share our environment," said Simon Stuart, chair of the IUCN Species Survival Commission.
"In the case of both the Western Black Rhino and the Northern White Rhino, the situation could have had very different results if the suggested conservation measures had been implemented," he added. "These measures must be strengthened now, specifically managing habitats in order to improve breeding performance, preventing other rhinos from fading into extinction."
The WWF environmental campaign group last month said that the Javan Rhino found dead in Vietnam in 2010 was the country's last, rendering the species all but the extinct.
Genetic analysis of 22 dung samples collected in Vietnam's Cat Tien National Park from 2009 to 2010 affirmed that the animal, found dead with a bullet in its leg and its horn removed in April 2010, was the final wild rhino in Vietnam.
Rhinoceros horns are a coveted ingredient in traditional Eastern medicine and rumored to cure or fend off cancer, although scientists say there is no evidence to support the claim.
WWF said the Javan Rhino was believed to be extinct from mainland Asia until 1988 when one was hunted from the Cat Tien area, leading to the discovery of a small population.
:(
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
GENEVA — The Western Black Rhino of Africa was declared officially extinct Thursday by a leading conservation group.
The International Union for Conservation of Nature said that two other subspecies of rhinoceros were close to meeting the same fate.
The Northern White Rhino of central Africa is now "possibly extinct" in the wild and the Javan Rhino "probably extinct" in Vietnam, after poachers killed the last animal there in 2010.
A small but declining population survives on the Indonesian island of Java.
IUCN said Thursday that a quarter of all mammals are at risk of extinction, according to its updated Red List of endangered species.
'Stewards of the Earth'
But the group added that species such as the Southern White Rhino and the Przewalski's Horse have been brought back from the brink with successful conservation programs.
"Human beings are stewards of the Earth and we are responsible for protecting the species that share our environment," said Simon Stuart, chair of the IUCN Species Survival Commission.
"In the case of both the Western Black Rhino and the Northern White Rhino, the situation could have had very different results if the suggested conservation measures had been implemented," he added. "These measures must be strengthened now, specifically managing habitats in order to improve breeding performance, preventing other rhinos from fading into extinction."
The WWF environmental campaign group last month said that the Javan Rhino found dead in Vietnam in 2010 was the country's last, rendering the species all but the extinct.
Genetic analysis of 22 dung samples collected in Vietnam's Cat Tien National Park from 2009 to 2010 affirmed that the animal, found dead with a bullet in its leg and its horn removed in April 2010, was the final wild rhino in Vietnam.
Rhinoceros horns are a coveted ingredient in traditional Eastern medicine and rumored to cure or fend off cancer, although scientists say there is no evidence to support the claim.
WWF said the Javan Rhino was believed to be extinct from mainland Asia until 1988 when one was hunted from the Cat Tien area, leading to the discovery of a small population.
I'm surprised that western cats have not migrated to the east. There seem to be more sightings in Michigan and Minnesota so maybe they will get there someday.
I've seen them a few times in the wild (west coast only). It's pretty rare to see them but I'm sure they have been watching me on numerous occasions while hiking. One time I surprised one while driving out of King's Canyon at night. I've never seen something move so fast while being so agile. It scrambled up a 30 foot embankment like a ghost. It is something I will never forget.
they are migrating east. They are sometimes found in Illinois now and up until the 60's/70's they weren't found east of western Nebraska and eastern Colorado, as well as in the Dakotas. My family is from Illinois and they own a large amount of farmland... my Dad was out checking fences one day a few years ago and found a dead Mountain Lion!!! (different kind of cat I know)
The horrible part was that it was determined that someone shot it with a bow/arrow. :x
Mountain lion=cougar=puma=catamount=Florida Panther (a sub-species)
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They think they've been extenct since the 1930s, They're just making it official now. I think western mountian lions, which is essentially the same thing, are migrating back east again.
I suspect that there will be some eastward movement....there is food to found in the form of white-tailed deer, but there is the issue of habitat....or in the case of the eastern U.S. the lack of it. The lack of habitat was a crushing blow to the Florida panther. The difference with cats, outside of African/Asiatic lions, is that they are solitary creatures who demand/require large territories to call their own. That's individual territories, measured in square miles, for both the male and the female of the species. The only time that they co-mingle is to mate.
Compare this to the coyote, who has successfully invaded the eastern US to fill the niche left after the extinction of the red wolf. They are a pack animal who can adapt their breeding practices in the face of outside pressure and can endure living in our presence....something that the cougar abhors. The coyote is also less picky about where its next meal comes from.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
If what this article says is true (and to me it does seem quite plausible) and 3/4 of all species become extinct, that would have to leave close to zero chance of humans surviving (unless by then we become machines).
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Keep in mind mass extinctions don't exactly happen overnight. It's estimated that it took 20,000-30,000 years between the asteroid striking the Earth and the last dinosaur to die.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,320
Keep in mind mass extinctions don't exactly happen overnight. It's estimated that it took 20,000-30,000 years between the asteroid striking the Earth and the last dinosaur to die.
Interestingly, dinosaurs never completely went extinct as many birds are directly related related to dinosaurs.
But as far as non-bird dinosaurs, yes, it took a long time for them to go extinct but which ones survived and where? And what percentage died off quickly? Some estimates say 3/4 died off very quickly. So if something similar happened today would we say, "Oh well, only 5.625 billion people died"? I think there is more to the picture than your correct statement might imply, Mookeywrench, and perhaps the bigger picture may detract from some of the optimism that correct statement implies. (Not that I'm being a pessimist- I see these things as science, not emotion.)
The other thing to bear in mind is human influence on the planet. Some say "It's just people and people are natural so the effects are natural". That always sounds to me like another almost desperate stab at feeling better about how we are wrecking havoc on the planet.
My own observation is that humans are changing the planet in ways that are not good for us and doing so quickly. I've only been alive (almost) 66 years, a mere blip in time. And yet I've seen places that I knew as a kid in the 50's become vastly different, much less healthy, much less attractive places.
So yes, some remnants of human population may be around for a long time but how many, and where and under what circumstances? I'll be glad to have my neural electricity flying out into space and my body feeding a tree by then. But my extended family kids? I am sad for them.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Comments
You certainly would have to be a sick fuck to get enjoyment out of that. On the other hand, when it comes to coyotes especially, there are times when predation warrants these tactics. Should it be a chest thumping ego trip? Uh, hell to the no!!! But you can't leave them to wreak havoc on all the other livestock and animals on your property.
ok, I still don't get it. is this in some way saying extinction is no big deal because it's all about human perception?
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Just perfect. Well said that man.
Hunting for fun is utterly revolting.
Im afraid you've lost me too. I understand what you say, but the point of this is what?
Polar Bears may as well die because the natives of Langkawi may never see them?
He was a hunter - self confessed and got a kick out of it. The fact that i found that disturbing and disgusting is not the point for now. He however argued quite well that through what he was doing - selling animals to be shot by thugs - was the most effective method of conservation in Africa at the moment. He had bred more lions and elephants than any similar conservation programme in the area. Because there was a demand to kill these majestic creatures there was a demand to keep them alive and make sure they can reproduce.
Twisted logic for sure, but sadly it works, and what a shame that in this day we are conserving species because people like to kill them.
I work with a guy who is a member of a fox hunt. We fall out most weeks about his enjoyment of the 'sport'. I find it amazing still that despite any argument about them being pests and vermin etc, that anyone can ENJOY the hunt. Its just mind boggling totally to me.
You make a great point to be fair, I read a lot of studies on biodiversity, the amazon, the illegal logging industry, the whale and dolphin meat trade, bushmeat etc, and read publications like the national Geographic and the Scientist, and watch pretty much most days something on Eden, animal planet, discovery etc, and the facts and statistics of what we lose every day is unreal....and 99% of the time its a result of human greed, and the human need. The fact that demand has never been higher for cheap wood products, flat pack crap, means that sadly more plants will become extinct every day as the world cannot stop the destruction that attracts.
We can lose around 75 species a day they predict. every day.
I think i mention Rhino's tigers elephants, chimps etc because they are the beacons of conservation along with the great Panda, they are the things that have the power to drive change, to stir up enough emotion at the thought of their loss for people to actually act and make change. But is the damage already done?
well tbh im wondering just how big a deal it is. now before you go jumping all over me, it is not my belief that we should just go around killing whatever the hell we want and destroying the environment around us, thus destroying other species(and our own) ecosystem/s.. im just trying to put it in perspective. during her life, earth has managed to survive many species extinctions and now because of our big brain we seem to be freaking out about it. and as i said, there are species on this earth that some people are unaware of and them and others will never come into contact with and will never have the opportunity to interact in, whether it be in the wild or in the inhumane confines of zoos... millions of people in more than a few cases.
im just wondering where the balance is.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
fair enough, my wife has a similar view to animals, she isnt that interested and doesnt get too upset about their habitat loss and potential extinction. IMO because it doesnt directly effect her, and that she cant see it happening, and that elephants are unimportant to her, is a wholly insular way of thinking. She doesnt get how I can get so upset about airport officials opening a container to find 386 elephant tusks on its way to china (last week), or gorillas being killed for their hands, or the slaughter of dolphins, or rhinos being killed for their horns, but I do, because they are amazing creatures, and its criminal that we are so destroying them to the point of wipe out in a time period of only 50 years in some cases.....when they have roamed this planet as have we for many thousands.
no your wife and i do not share a similiar view towards animals. tell me how you came to that conclusion.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
because neither of you consider it a big deal?
no.. i never said it wasnt a big deal. i was questioning just how big a deal it is.
humans are the dominant species on this planet... like it or not. am i thrilled with how we destroy environments with seemingly disregard for the other species that inhabit it? no i am. i think humans are the most destructive force on earth. we are so self important... and objectively im wondering where we fit into the big scheme of things. im yet to figure it out yet. sometimes i think that we act out of guilt.. tis as if we see ourselves as this powerful force, albeit destructive and we feel the need to counter the bad. now... im not saying this is wrong or misguided.. im just trying to figure out the balance.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Sure Ok, it wasnt intended to be an attack on you - on the contrary - people have different ideas on what is important, and people have different priorities.....People's priorities are not always animals, and despite being one of my biggest loves in life, many people dont have that connection. I feel strongly about these things, many dont, neither is right or wrong. I brought my wife in as I clearly misread your intention (apologies for that), as we often have this little debate, she's just simply not as interested in animals as me, the thing that I struggle to reconcile in that instance is that she genuinely isnt so concerned about it....she cant even understand why i am.....but everyones different....and thats ok....
the people who cause me the biggest grievance is those who kill for fun, and those whom buy products of animals on the endangered list illegally fuelling the huge trade on the black market......after all is it hard to see why a poor indian man may go and hunt a tiger when he can feed his family for 3 years off one kill....or they may have to wait for their next meal....no the problem lies with those people buying these things. Dear god you can still order polar bear skins on the internet.....no need at all.
'Ghost of Chance'
http://www.amazon.com/Ghost-Chance-Will ... 1852424060
dont worry... i can handle it.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Well put. Bravo! Bravo!!!
I do not know about other countries but here in Canada hunting is highly regulated and you can only hunt for substance. Now Coyote's are hunted because they become a threat to farmers livestock, people's pets and some instance's small children.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110304/ap_ ... red_turtle
HANOI, Vietnam – Hundreds of people are working around the clock to clean up a lake in the heart of Vietnam's capital in hopes of saving a rare, ailing giant turtle that is considered a sacred symbol of Hanoi.
Some experts fear pollution at Hoan Kiem Lake is killing the giant freshwater turtle, which has a soft shell the size of a desk. It is one of the world's most-endangered species, with only four known to be alive worldwide.
Teams of people are cleaning debris, pumping fresh water into the lake and using sandbags to expand a tiny island to serve as a "turtle hospital." The rescuers may even try to net the animal for the first time as part of the effort.
The Hoan Kiem turtle is rooted in Vietnamese folklore, and some even believe the animal that lives in the lake today is the same mythical creature that helped a Vietnamese king fend off the Chinese nearly six centuries ago.
It swims alone in the lake and in the past has been glimpsed only rarely sticking its wrinkled neck out of the water. But it has recently surfaced much more frequently, alarming the public with visible raw open wounds on its head, legs and shell.
Meetings were called, a council was established and 10 government agencies were put to work to try to save it.
It's the first time anyone has tried to capture the turtle, and Vietnamese have flocked to the lake in hopes of spotting it — a sign of good luck — as newspapers run daily articles about its plight.
"For the Vietnamese, the Hoan Kiem lake turtle is the most sacred thing," said retired state employee Nguyen Thi Xuan, 63, who traveled from a suburban district to try to get a glimpse of the animal. "He has helped the Vietnamese to defeat foreign invaders and also helped the country to have peace. I hope he will live forever."
The lake, which measures one mile (1.6 kilometers) is a city landmark for its curved red bridge leading to a temple on a tiny island. Weeping willows and other leafy trees shade a sidewalk that rings the water, a popular site for tourists and Hanoians to exercise and relax.
But the lake has been trashed with everything from bricks and concrete to plastic bags and raw sewage. It is not uncommon to see men urinating directly into the murky water.
The pollution is slowly killing the Hoan Kiem turtle, a Vietnamese biologist warned.
"I believe the injuries were caused by sharp edges from debris in the lake," said Ha Dinh Duc, who has studied the lone turtle for 20 years and considers himself its caretaker. "The poor quality of water also makes the conditions unbearable for the turtle."
The turtle rescue team hopes to coax the creature onto land so they can treat the wounds. Sandbags have been built up to expand a small island for it to emerge. But if it does not crawl onto the platform by itself, a net will be used to capture it.
Veterinarians will then work at the so-called "turtle hospital" to take skin and shell samples for analysis, and will then determine how to treat it. Photos reveal scars and pink open sores on its head and legs. A white fungus-like material also covers a large section of its shell, which also has lesions.
One American turtle expert, who has lived in Vietnam for 14 years, says he's not convinced the ailments are life-threatening because the creature's behavior has not changed significantly. It is surfacing on warm days, as it should, and appears to be swimming freely and feeding.
"Every couple years here in Hanoi, people start saying the Hoan Kiem turtle is sick," said Douglas Hendrie, a technical adviser for the nonprofit Education for Nature Vietnam and founder of the Asian Turtle Program. "I wouldn't panic yet."
No one knows the turtle's age or gender, but Hendrie said turtle experts estimate it is probably between 80 and 100-plus years old. They believe it is probably the most endangered freshwater turtle species in the world. It weighs about 440 pounds (200 kilograms) and its massive shell stretches 6 feet long (1.8 meters long) and 4 feet wide (1.2 meters wide). There is one other turtle of the same species, known as Rafeteus swinhoei, in Vietnam and two are in a Chinese zoo.
Legend has it that in the mid-15th century, King Le Loi defeated Chinese invaders with a magic sword given to him by the gods. After the victory, the king was said to be boating on the lake when a giant golden turtle rose to the surface and snatched the sword in its mouth before plunging deep into the water to return it to its divine owners.
The lake was later renamed "Ho Hoan Kiem," which means "Lake of the Returned Sword," and the tale became an important part of Vietnamese culture that continues to be taught in school and performed at popular water puppetry shows.
But real or mythical, the turtle that swims in the lake is a legend to the Vietnamese people who call him "cu rua," a word of great respect reserved for great-grandfathers.
"I prayed at a temple this morning hoping to have a glimpse of him," said Vu Thi Dung, a 58-year-old farmer who traveled 60 miles (100 kilometers) for her opportunity to see the turtle. "I had a chance to see him three times already. I'm really glad. It's urgent to treat him and clean up the lake."
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
I just wanted to say that as I don't know if people make any distinction on what endangered species we should actively try to save. are there species of animals or plants that are not being affected by human presence that we are trying to protect?
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Africa's Western Black Rhino declared extinct
A quarter of all mammals are at risk of extinction, conservation group says
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45236688/ns ... vironment/
GENEVA — The Western Black Rhino of Africa was declared officially extinct Thursday by a leading conservation group.
The International Union for Conservation of Nature said that two other subspecies of rhinoceros were close to meeting the same fate.
The Northern White Rhino of central Africa is now "possibly extinct" in the wild and the Javan Rhino "probably extinct" in Vietnam, after poachers killed the last animal there in 2010.
A small but declining population survives on the Indonesian island of Java.
IUCN said Thursday that a quarter of all mammals are at risk of extinction, according to its updated Red List of endangered species.
'Stewards of the Earth'
But the group added that species such as the Southern White Rhino and the Przewalski's Horse have been brought back from the brink with successful conservation programs.
"Human beings are stewards of the Earth and we are responsible for protecting the species that share our environment," said Simon Stuart, chair of the IUCN Species Survival Commission.
"In the case of both the Western Black Rhino and the Northern White Rhino, the situation could have had very different results if the suggested conservation measures had been implemented," he added. "These measures must be strengthened now, specifically managing habitats in order to improve breeding performance, preventing other rhinos from fading into extinction."
The WWF environmental campaign group last month said that the Javan Rhino found dead in Vietnam in 2010 was the country's last, rendering the species all but the extinct.
Genetic analysis of 22 dung samples collected in Vietnam's Cat Tien National Park from 2009 to 2010 affirmed that the animal, found dead with a bullet in its leg and its horn removed in April 2010, was the final wild rhino in Vietnam.
Rhinoceros horns are a coveted ingredient in traditional Eastern medicine and rumored to cure or fend off cancer, although scientists say there is no evidence to support the claim.
WWF said the Javan Rhino was believed to be extinct from mainland Asia until 1988 when one was hunted from the Cat Tien area, leading to the discovery of a small population.
:(
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
so so sad
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
Compare this to the coyote, who has successfully invaded the eastern US to fill the niche left after the extinction of the red wolf. They are a pack animal who can adapt their breeding practices in the face of outside pressure and can endure living in our presence....something that the cougar abhors. The coyote is also less picky about where its next meal comes from.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/11/world/sutter-mass-extinction-ceballos-study/index.html
-EV 8/14/93
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
But as far as non-bird dinosaurs, yes, it took a long time for them to go extinct but which ones survived and where? And what percentage died off quickly? Some estimates say 3/4 died off very quickly. So if something similar happened today would we say, "Oh well, only 5.625 billion people died"? I think there is more to the picture than your correct statement might imply, Mookeywrench, and perhaps the bigger picture may detract from some of the optimism that correct statement implies. (Not that I'm being a pessimist- I see these things as science, not emotion.)
The other thing to bear in mind is human influence on the planet. Some say "It's just people and people are natural so the effects are natural". That always sounds to me like another almost desperate stab at feeling better about how we are wrecking havoc on the planet.
My own observation is that humans are changing the planet in ways that are not good for us and doing so quickly. I've only been alive (almost) 66 years, a mere blip in time. And yet I've seen places that I knew as a kid in the 50's become vastly different, much less healthy, much less attractive places.
So yes, some remnants of human population may be around for a long time but how many, and where and under what circumstances? I'll be glad to have my neural electricity flying out into space and my body feeding a tree by then. But my extended family kids? I am sad for them.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"