Why isn't abortion considered murder?

ONCE DEVIDED

If you want to bring god into your argument prove he exists,
you may believe but many do not. thats faith
use arguments on our society and its laws not fantasy

GTFLYGIRL

cincybearcat wrote:

GTFLYGIRL wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

I agree. I was using ridiculous statements, much like telling people that are against abortion to adopt every baby.

What do you think happens to 1000's of unwanted children? There are too many for our system to handle as it is. I am a Social Worker and have worked in Child Welfare since I first got out of undergrad in 1988. The foster care system SUCKS... and so does the adoption system that it is tied into... These are the unwanted children... I can't help but ask anyone who believes we should multiply the number of unwanted children in this fucked up system... TENFOLD.... by eliminating a woman's choice... just what he or she plans to do about THAT situation?

How do you think we should rectify the enormous number of unwanted children that would be born into the system... You have to remember...people that are forced to have babies are not going to get the best pre-natal care. If they are forced to have babies they dont want they may try to end the pregnancy themselves and in turn cause their child to be born premature and/or with multiple congenital anomolies. I have seen too many of these already. Kids left in garbage dumpsters and such... kids that were born to parents unable to handle parenting who ended up in the system after they LITERALLY had their brains shaken so much they were deaf... and blind.. and more... To take away choice would make the already over-burdened child welfare system and foster care system overloaded with children that nobody wanted.

So since you think that is what should happen... I personally think it is a logical and reasonable question to ask.. Just what do YOU plan to do to contribute to helping the innocent victims that are forced to be born into a world where NO ONE wants them. Many of them born at a physical disadvantage and most all of them without anyone to love, care, and nurture them. NOW THEY ARE VICTIMS!

How will you help those victims?

Did you read anything else? Man, it is becoming impossible to have a rational discussion here.

Agreed. It is impossible to hold a rational discussion here. I have read this entire thread.... And the question of how to care for unwanted children... that some of you want to force to be born into society is a very logical and rational question... Why didn't you answer my question?

I have a Master's Degree in Social Work with an emphasis on Children and Families and was voted Social Worker of the Year by New York State Foster and Adoptive Parent Association. I know a lot about the subject.

I have been working with children in the foster care system for over twenty years now...MANY... have no one who "wants them..." many children linger "freed for adoption" in the foster care system for most of their childhoods... If choice is taken away... The number of children that will enter this world at a great disadvantage; unwanted, unloved, and "burdening society" from their first breath... already uncared for before they are even born (talk about entering this world at a disadvantage...) will well more than double. If abortion is made illegal... and the number of unwanted children born into society is increased even by THREE times... What will YOU do to help ensure that they are cared for? If they are forced to be born due to societal laws... what will society do to ensure they are cared for and not just victims of society?

If you are championing the cause of "forced life" on the unborn.... why do you think it ridiculous to think you should help to care for them?

JonnyPistachio

GTFLYGIRL wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

GTFLYGIRL wrote:

What do you think happens to 1000's of unwanted children? There are too many for our system to handle as it is. I am a Social Worker and have worked in Child Welfare since I first got out of undergrad in 1988. The foster care system SUCKS... and so does the adoption system that it is tied into... These are the unwanted children... I can't help but ask anyone who believes we should multiply the number of unwanted children in this fucked up system... TENFOLD.... by eliminating a woman's choice... just what he or she plans to do about THAT situation?

How do you think we should rectify the enormous number of unwanted children that would be born into the system... You have to remember...people that are forced to have babies are not going to get the best pre-natal care. If they are forced to have babies they dont want they may try to end the pregnancy themselves and in turn cause their child to be born premature and/or with multiple congenital anomolies. I have seen too many of these already. Kids left in garbage dumpsters and such... kids that were born to parents unable to handle parenting who ended up in the system after they LITERALLY had their brains shaken so much they were deaf... and blind.. and more... To take away choice would make the already over-burdened child welfare system and foster care system overloaded with children that nobody wanted.

So since you think that is what should happen... I personally think it is a logical and reasonable question to ask.. Just what do YOU plan to do to contribute to helping the innocent victims that are forced to be born into a world where NO ONE wants them. Many of them born at a physical disadvantage and most all of them without anyone to love, care, and nurture them. NOW THEY ARE VICTIMS!

How will you help those victims?

Did you read anything else? Man, it is becoming impossible to have a rational discussion here.

Agreed. It is impossible to hold a rational discussion here. I have read this entire thread.... And the question of how to care for unwanted children... that some of you want to force to be born into society is a very logical and rational question... Why didn't you answer my question?

I have a Master's Degree in Social Work with an emphasis on Children and Families and was voted Social Worker of the Year by New York State Foster and Adoptive Parent Association. I know a lot about the subject.

I have been working with children in the foster care system for over twenty years now...MANY... have no one who "wants them..." many children linger "freed for adoption" in the foster care system for most of their childhoods... If choice is taken away... The number of children that will enter this world at a great disadvantage; unwanted, unloved, and "burdening society" from their first breath... already uncared for before they are even born (talk about entering this world at a disadvantage...) will well more than double. If abortion is made illegal... and the number of unwanted children born into society is increased even by THREE times... What will YOU do to help ensure that they are cared for? If they are forced to be born due to societal laws... what will society do to ensure they are cared for and not just victims of society?

If you are championing the cause of "forced life" on the unborn.... why do you think it ridiculous to think you should help to care for them?

This is a huge concern that I dont think pro-lifers want to discuss because there isnt an easy answer (if there's one at all).
I cant even fathom how long it would take if abortion were made illegal to recitfy this problem.. likely never.

cincybearcat

GTFLYGIRL wrote:

If you are championing the cause of "forced life" on the unborn.... why do you think it ridiculous to think you should help to care for them?

Well, since I already posted it I thought I didn't have to again. I said there is no way in today's world for abortion to just be made illegal. But someone asked me what I would like my world to be like...and it is where abortion is illegal.

So, as I mentioned before, the path to that new world is long and difficult and potentially not doable. It starts with improving sex education. Ensuring that we are having meaningful conversations with our children. I think it means levels of education where different aspects are covered. Some starting very young in school and then some not being introduced until junior high or high school aged. That way not only are we talking about it, we are doing so in a manner that makes people more comfortable talking about it.
In addition, we need to ensure that proper protection is easily accessible and affordable.

Sure these things cost $, and I certainly don't like the government spending tax payers $ willy nilly, but I believe this is an important issue to fund. In the end it will save lives and prevent/lower some of the expenses the tax payers are currently billed for.

All with the goal of eliminating the need for abortions. And, at the very least you end up with far more educated citizens that have the understanding and ability to protect themselves. So, even if you can't eliminate abortions, you minimize them and protect people from STDs, in the process.

As for your last question, I'm fine with helping to pay for children services, etc. I would just like to reduce the number that need it as well, but not through abortion, through enabling people to make better decisions.

VINNY GOOMBA

I can only draw one conclusion from this thread.

The poster known as SCB has clearly let her membership expire.

Blockhead

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

I can only draw one conclusion from this thread.

The poster known as SCB has clearly let her membership expire.

??? SCB is (_____)
Havent you figured that out?

LikeAnOcean

What if you pull out? Wouldn't that be considered aborting?


OK, all joking aside, where do you draw the line?

This is why it is better to have a choice. Decide for yourself based on your morals. I think we can all agree that killing a born baby is murder. We all die someday. Abortion will always be an opinion.

SK84993

18 Men Charged with Gang Rape of 11-Year-old Girl.So is she responsible to give birth to a child if she ended up pregnant?

cincybearcat

SK84993 wrote:

18 Men Charged with Gang Rape of 11-Year-old Girl.So is she responsible to give birth to a child if she ended up pregnant?

I'd venture to guess that pregnancy would put an 11 year-old's health at risk, so I'd bet that almost 100% of people would be ok with it in this case.

By the way, you should never base the overall policy on the weirdest scenarios you can come up with.

SK84993

I beleive it is a women's choice and feel sorry for any women that has our will ever have to make such a descision?http://www.bing.com/search?q=men+charged+rape+texas&form=msnpop.not a crazy scenario just a crazy world.

ed243421

cincybearcat wrote:

SK84993 wrote:

18 Men Charged with Gang Rape of 11-Year-old Girl.So is she responsible to give birth to a child if she ended up pregnant?

I'd venture to guess that pregnancy would put an 11 year-old's health at risk, so I'd bet that almost 100% of people would be ok with it in this case.

By the way, you should never base the overall policy on the weirdest scenarios you can come up with.

hey cincy
only because it puts the 11 year olds health at risk?
you are kidding right?
and if only 1 guy rapes a woman of ANY age
you wanna force that woman
to let that scumbag's kid grow inside her for 9 months?
that would probably be a torture worse than the rape

cincybearcat

SK84993 wrote:

I beleive it is a women's choice and feel sorry for any women that has our will ever have to make such a descision?http://www.bing.com/search?q=men+charged+rape+texas&form=msnpop.not a crazy scenario just a crazy world.

No, I believed you that it happened. Point still stands.

cincybearcat

ed243421 wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

SK84993 wrote:

18 Men Charged with Gang Rape of 11-Year-old Girl.So is she responsible to give birth to a child if she ended up pregnant?

I'd venture to guess that pregnancy would put an 11 year-old's health at risk, so I'd bet that almost 100% of people would be ok with it in this case.

By the way, you should never base the overall policy on the weirdest scenarios you can come up with.

hey cincy
only because it puts the 11 year olds health at risk?
you are kidding right?
and if only 1 guy rapes a woman of ANY age
you wanna force that woman
to let that scumbag's kid grow inside her for 9 months?
that would probably be a torture worse than the rape

Yeah...that's a tough one for me. If you believe abortion is killing a baby, it's tough to ever justify it unless you are saving the life of another by doing so. So rape is the most difficult to wrap my head around. I fully get your point.

blenderman69

I AM SURE THAT EVERY SIDE OF THIS ISSUE HAS BEEN COVERED IN THIS THREAD ! ALL i CAN ADD A WOMENS BODY A WOMENS CHOICE.

_

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

I can only draw one conclusion from this thread.

The poster known as SCB has clearly let her membership expire.

Blockhead wrote:

??? SCB is (_____)
Havent you figured that out?

Miss me?

But you have me confused with someone else. I'm _. _____ is another person entirely.

Nice job on your name change, by the way.

_

cincybearcat wrote:

SK84993 wrote:

18 Men Charged with Gang Rape of 11-Year-old Girl.So is she responsible to give birth to a child if she ended up pregnant?

I'd venture to guess that pregnancy would put an 11 year-old's health at risk, so I'd bet that almost 100% of people would be ok with it in this case.

So then do you support all health exceptions?

By the way, you should never base the overall policy on the weirdest scenarios you can come up with.

Or perhaps you should never create overall, blanketly applicable policies when there is such a wide variety of scenarios they would affect. Any time a policy is created, it must be with consideration of the affect it will actually have in real life.

For instance, I'd like to see you actually address GTFLYGIRL's point about your belief that you should always force life onto every potential person just because you feel like your personal value system should be blanketly imposed upon everyone else, regardless of the reality of harm it may cause them (the resulting person). So far I've only seen you skirt the issue by talking instead about creating a lack of need for abortion (which is a moot point since we pretty much all agree on that) instead of acknowledging the harm your position will cause to many of the potential people you are trying to protect. In my opinion, the ability to ignore or disregard these negative consequences comes only from being privileged enough to not have to face reality.

cincybearcat

_ wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

SK84993 wrote:

18 Men Charged with Gang Rape of 11-Year-old Girl.So is she responsible to give birth to a child if she ended up pregnant?

I'd venture to guess that pregnancy would put an 11 year-old's health at risk, so I'd bet that almost 100% of people would be ok with it in this case.

So then do you support all health exceptions?

By the way, you should never base the overall policy on the weirdest scenarios you can come up with.

Or perhaps you should never create overall, blanketly applicable policies when there is such a wide variety of scenarios they would affect.

Yes you are correct, I wouldn't create a "blanketly applicable policy". That is true, you should always have some room for judgment.

As for the "health exceptions"...not sure what they "all" are, but I think good legislation would leave this determination up to qualified physicians and then let the mother choose to follow the qualified physician's opinion or not.

cincybearcat

_ wrote:

For instance, I'd like to see you actually address GTFLYGIRL's point about your belief that you should always force life onto every potential person just because you feel like your personal value system should be blanketly imposed upon everyone else, regardless of the reality of harm it may cause them (the resulting person). So far I've only seen you skirt the issue by talking instead about creating a lack of need for abortion (which is a moot point since we pretty much all agree on that) instead of acknowledging the harm your position will cause to many of the potential people you are trying to protect. In my opinion, the ability to ignore or disregard these negative consequences comes only from being privileged enough to not have to face reality.

By the way, hey there, we have done this for awhile. I stayed out of this thread for a long time, then got sucked in.

Anyhow, not really sure what more you want to say. I'll try to sum it up, I think we should have the final goal in our heads to eliminate abortion. Work towards that end and hopefully get there. But I already admitted that we may never get to that point at all. What more do you want me to say?

There is no ignoring or disregard to the situation you are referring to.

_

cincybearcat wrote:

Yes you are correct, I wouldn't create a "blanketly applicable policy". That is true, you should always have some room for judgment.

As for the "health exceptions"...not sure what they "all" are, but I think good legislation would leave this determination up to qualified physicians and then let the mother choose to follow the qualified physician's opinion or not.

The problem, if you really want abortions to be illegal, is that health exceptions are mostly going to be judgement calls, based on the risks & benefits of each decision. So, the doctors don't usually issue an opinion about what a patient should do; they explain the (likely or possible) consequences of continuing the pregnancy & the decision is based on the values of the patient - like with any other medical procedure.

For instance, an 11-year-old, generally speaking, is perfectly capable of carrying a pregnancy to term & delivering a baby. But there are risks & likely consequences to doing this - for the girl, the "baby," the family, & society. A doctor can't, shouldn't, & most likely won't tell this little girl & her family which risks they should be forced to accept based on his personal values; he'll just tell them what the risks are, and each family will choose differently. I've seen one family say the physical & psychological trauma of pregnancy & childbirth was an unacceptable risk to take with their 12-year-old, and another family say the supposed possible physical & psychological trauma of abortion was an unacceptable risk to take with their 13-year-old. The assessment of risk is a medical opinion, but the assessment of which risks are worth taking is always based on personal values.

So I don't think this solution will bring you the result that you want. Pro-choice doctors (who account for most of the doctors I know) will likely say the patient shouldn't be forced to put herself at any level of risk (because it's unethical to force a patient to take risks they don't want to take) & anti-choice (no, I don't mean pro-life) doctors might say their own personal value about abortion should be imposed on the patient & she should be forced to take even a high level of risk.

Here's anothe question for you: Do you include mental health exceptions?

_

cincybearcat wrote:

_ wrote:

For instance, I'd like to see you actually address GTFLYGIRL's point about your belief that you should always force life onto every potential person just because you feel like your personal value system should be blanketly imposed upon everyone else, regardless of the reality of harm it may cause them (the resulting person). So far I've only seen you skirt the issue by talking instead about creating a lack of need for abortion (which is a moot point since we pretty much all agree on that) instead of acknowledging the harm your position will cause to many of the potential people you are trying to protect. In my opinion, the ability to ignore or disregard these negative consequences comes only from being privileged enough to not have to face reality.

By the way, hey there, we have done this for awhile. I stayed out of this thread for a long time, then got sucked in.

Anyhow, not really sure what more you want to say. I'll try to sum it up, I think we should have the final goal in our heads to eliminate abortion. Work towards that end and hopefully get there. But I already admitted that we may never get to that point at all. What more do you want me to say?

There is no ignoring or disregard to the situation you are referring to.

Hey there. :wave:

I think we all agree that we should have the final goal of eliminating the need for abortion. But you take it a giant step further when you say we should criminalize abortion for those who feel like they need it. That means FORCING "people" to be born, simply because of your personal values, without regard to the negative consequences to the people/children themselves. It's these negative consequences that not everyone would prefer to be forced into, that would be harmful to the people you are trying to protect, that you have not addressed.

So I guess more specific questions would be: Since your position on forced birth is motivated by a desire to protect the people who will result from these births, how do you address the fact that you will also be forcing harm upon many of these people, whose values about which "harm" is worse might differ from yours? How is it your right to impose your values upon potential people? How is it in anyone's best interest to do so without regard for individual circumstances, including social ones? And how will you resolve the trauma (to individuals & society) that will result?