Why isn't abortion considered murder?

cincybearcat

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

how about if you want these babes to not be aborted, do your part and adopt a few of them? put your money where your mouth is.

This is another one of the widely seen flawed arguments. Do you apply that same logic to everything?

If that is the case, why aren't you fighting alongside the Palestinians instead of typing about it?

There are lots of ways to support your beliefs. No one person adopting babies is going to change the world.

gimmesometruth27

cincybearcat wrote:

Yep, that is exactly what I said. That we should work towards a society where it is illegal to have an abortion. Never did I say anything about charging anyone who has had a past abortion with murder. I thought I was pretty clear. I also said I wasn't sure we could ever get to the point where it became illegal, hence the "(maybe never get to that point)". But I think we should try to eliminate abortions from society except in some very rare cases where a physician and a patient (the woman in this case) are making a very difficult decision based upon the health of the mother.

Is it hard for you to understand that someone that thinks abortion is killing a baby believes that it could be considered murder?

you can think whatever you like. but how do you reconcile trying to make the right to choose illegal once the right to choose has been granted? how about we take the right to vote away from african americans while we are at it?

gimmesometruth27

cincybearcat wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

now who is being dramatic?

My vote goes to the guy that apparently can't read and is putting words in other people's mouths while using pretty blue colors and underlining (and HUGE type).

they were your words cincy. you contradicted that post with the subsequent one and i did that to point it out to everyone that i was not crazy and that i read those words from your post.. you advocate in the future charging people who have an abortion with murder? what about the ones who have had one already? they have no penalty? to me charging anybody with anything is completely unreasonable.

gimmesometruth27

cincybearcat wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

how about if you want these babes to not be aborted, do your part and adopt a few of them? put your money where your mouth is.

This is another one of the widely seen flawed arguments. Do you apply that same logic to everything?

If that is the case, why aren't you fighting alongside the Palestinians instead of typing about it?

There are lots of ways to support your beliefs. No one person adopting babies is going to change the world.

i am a pacifist. i don't believe in war or fighting militarily. my views on the palestinian/israeli conflict have nothing to do with this topic. if you must know, i post those articles about that conflict to educate people here about how your government is supporting and being manipulated by our "ally" in the middle east, and how they are subjugating the palestinians in their own land that was stolen from them. i guarantee most people on here would have no idea what is going on over there if it were not for me and several other posters talking about it. but that is neither here nor there, and it has nothing to do with this topic and it does not belong in this thread....

if you pro-lifers are so interested in saving babies and taking rights away from women, knock yourself out. how is you typing about it helping any fetuses? it is not. if people want to save an unwanted baby why don't they adopt one rather than forcing their morality views on everyone that is pro-choice? if abortion is made illegal someone is going to have to adopt these kids. any takers?

Blockhead

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

how about if you want these babes to not be aborted, do your part and adopt a few of them? put your money where your mouth is.

This is another one of the widely seen flawed arguments. Do you apply that same logic to everything?

If that is the case, why aren't you fighting alongside the Palestinians instead of typing about it?

There are lots of ways to support your beliefs. No one person adopting babies is going to change the world.

i am a pacifist. i don't believe in war or fighting militarily. my views on the palestinian/israeli conflict have nothing to do with this topic. if you must know, i post those articles about that conflict to educate people here about how your government is supporting and being manipulated by our "ally" in the middle east, and how they are subjugating the palestinians in their own land that was stolen from them. i guarantee most people on here would have no idea what is going on over there if it were not for me and several other posters talking about it. but that is neither here nor there, and it has nothing to do with this topic and it does not belong in this thread....

if you pro-lifers are so interested in saving babies and taking rights away from women, knock yourself out. how is you typing about it helping any fetuses? it is not. if people want to save an unwanted baby why don't they adopt one rather than forcing their morality views on everyone that is pro-choice? if abortion is made illegal someone is going to have to adopt these kids. any takers?

Yes there plenty of people who would like to adopt/foster. Also I am a responsible adult so I don't want to take a kid in that I can't feed/cloth/shelter.

mikepegg44

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

Abortion is the ending of a life, and just like many other types of ending a life it is a justifiable. Like I said earlier, until there is a way to remove the zygote/fetus from a mother without killing it shouldn't be illegal...And even then it is still their choice...I cannot force anyone to keep me alive, I cannot force anyone to gain weight, I cannot force anyone to get sick, i cannot force anyone to have all of the complications that could arise from pergnancy, and if I tried it and the only way to get me to stop was killing me, people would probably consider it justifiable homicide...unless there was another reasonable way to get me to stop.
So it isn't considered murder because it isn't murder...I really don't know how to answer it any other way unfortunately
Even though it wasn't posed to me I would like to try to answer your question gimme,
I really do think there would be millions of pro-lifers that would give out of their own pocket to a fund that would keep these surgeries coming.
Easiest way to solve the problem is instead of the government charging zillions of fees for adopting, have the adoptive mothers get some money for it, I guarantee you more would keep their pregnancy to full term if they new $5,000 was coming after it...

i like most of this post, very reasonable.

however, i doubt that a $5000 bribe would make a woman keep a baby that she doesn't want. hell, an $8000 tax break could not persuade people to buy a home.

it may not work, but i hate the fact that it is next to impossible for people to afford adopting a baby and there are so many out there that want to...another thread i guess.

cincybearcat

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

Yep, that is exactly what I said. That we should work towards a society where it is illegal to have an abortion. Never did I say anything about charging anyone who has had a past abortion with murder. I thought I was pretty clear. I also said I wasn't sure we could ever get to the point where it became illegal, hence the "(maybe never get to that point)". But I think we should try to eliminate abortions from society except in some very rare cases where a physician and a patient (the woman in this case) are making a very difficult decision based upon the health of the mother.

Is it hard for you to understand that someone that thinks abortion is killing a baby believes that it could be considered murder?

you can think whatever you like. but how do you reconcile trying to make the right to choose illegal once the right to choose has been granted? how about we take the right to vote away from african americans while we are at it?

Huh?

So what you are saying is that if something is law today, then it can never be changed? Might want to rethink that or African-Americans and women would still not have the right to vote today. And how about gay couples, they SOL in your world because it has to stay the way it is?

I know we disagree on abortion. But why is it hard for you to understand that I believe my point of view is trying to make sure each life has rights...even the unborn child. I understand that since you don't think the unborn fetus is a life, taking away the right to choose is stripping the woman of the right to do what she wants with her body. I get it. I don't think it is correct, but it is a viewpoint that has merit.

cincybearcat

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

now who is being dramatic?

My vote goes to the guy that apparently can't read and is putting words in other people's mouths while using pretty blue colors and underlining (and HUGE type).

they were your words cincy. you contradicted that post with the subsequent one and i did that to point it out to everyone that i was not crazy and that i read those words from your post.. you advocate in the future charging people who have an abortion with murder? what about the ones who have had one already? they have no penalty? to me charging anybody with anything is completely unreasonable.

No I didn't. I said the same exact thing. You misread it. Yes, no penalty for people that have had abortions prior because it was legal. I never said otherwise.

This all came from me answering someone's hypothetical question. I said that if we put the $ and effort into education/resources (birth control, adoption agencies, assistance programs, etc) and created a society where the true need for abortion was limited, then I could see having an abortion for some reasons as cause for being charged with murder. I left open the need for an abortion due to the mother's health. Rape/incest are the two most difficult areas. Since I believe it's a baby, I can not justify killing it in these cases....but I could be swayed if the health (mental & physical) of the mother were at risk.

cincybearcat

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

how about if you want these babes to not be aborted, do your part and adopt a few of them? put your money where your mouth is.

This is another one of the widely seen flawed arguments. Do you apply that same logic to everything?

If that is the case, why aren't you fighting alongside the Palestinians instead of typing about it?

There are lots of ways to support your beliefs. No one person adopting babies is going to change the world.

i am a pacifist. i don't believe in war or fighting militarily. my views on the palestinian/israeli conflict have nothing to do with this topic. if you must know, i post those articles about that conflict to educate people here about how your government is supporting and being manipulated by our "ally" in the middle east, and how they are subjugating the palestinians in their own land that was stolen from them. i guarantee most people on here would have no idea what is going on over there if it were not for me and several other posters talking about it. but that is neither here nor there, and it has nothing to do with this topic and it does not belong in this thread....

if you pro-lifers are so interested in saving babies and taking rights away from women, knock yourself out. how is you typing about it helping any fetuses? it is not. if people want to save an unwanted baby why don't they adopt one rather than forcing their morality views on everyone that is pro-choice? if abortion is made illegal someone is going to have to adopt these kids. any takers?

If you believe in choice so much why aren't you paying for the abortion of any baby when the mother can't afford it? Why aren't you arranging for her transportation? These are just ridiculous statements that get us no where in this debate.

Your choice of words shows your inability to debate this topic. "Taking rights away from women"...please. It's not like I'm sitting here calling you a baby killer am I? Please stay away from the ridiculous overly dramatic rhetoric....it is why this country can't have any good debates anymore. Instead we have 1 side not willing to listen and the other runs away.

gimmesometruth27

cincybearcat wrote:

If you believe in choice so much why aren't you paying for the abortion of any baby when the mother can't afford it? Why aren't you arranging for her transportation? These are just ridiculous statements that get us no where in this debate.

Your choice of words shows your inability to debate this topic. "Taking rights away from women"...please. It's not like I'm sitting here calling you a baby killer am I? Please stay away from the ridiculous overly dramatic rhetoric....it is why this country can't have any good debates anymore. Instead we have 1 side not willing to listen and the other runs away.

it is not my responsibility to pay for abortions, nor is it my responsibility to provide transportation or anything of the sort. i am defending the rights of women to do that for themselves, and i am defending their right to choose what happens inside of their own body. why is that so hard to understand?

if you take away the right to an abortion, you force a woman to carry an unwanted baby to term and bear the child, or go get a back alley abortion. as i stated earlier in this thread, i do not like abortion, but i can not condone people like you demanding that a woman carry a baby full term if she has other options. a woman has a say over what happens inside her own body. it can not be any other way. and yes i call it stripping the woman's right to choose if you eliminate the choice of abortion, because i can not in my conscience see it as anything other than that. there should be equal reproductive rights for all, and the woman has to bear the child, therefore she ultimately makes the choice.

and as far as you saying that i make it impossible to debate this topic, i feel the same way about you. fact is abortion is legal, abortions are safe, and they are regulated. i don't think you can hope for anything more than that.

cincybearcat

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

it is not my responsibility to pay for abortions, nor is it my responsibility to provide transportation or anything of the sort. i am defending the rights of women to do that for themselves, and i am defending their right to choose what happens inside of their own body. why is that so hard to understand?

I agree. I was using ridiculous statements, much like telling people that are against abortion to adopt every baby.

cincybearcat

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

and as far as you saying that i make it impossible to debate this topic, i feel the same way about you. fact is abortion is legal, abortions are safe, and they are regulated. i don't think you can hope for anything more than that.

That's fine. I'm not sure you read it, but I said I understand you point of view and while I disagree with it completely, I do think it is a valid point of view to have. Because who really knows when life begins. NO one can be absolutely sure.

As far as abortions being safe...depends on who you are thinking about protecting, that's all.

While I am sure some anti-abortion people are for "stripping a woman's right", I think that is pretty far from the majority. Most simply want to protect the life of the unborn child. Just as I think there are some Pro-choice people that think it's fine to do at any point and for any reason, but they are far from the majority (in my opinion). Most don't think it's a life and therefore other people are telling a woman what to do with their bodies. That's why the debate often gets heated.

As far as what we can hope for, I'd say we all can hope for minimizing abortions as much as possible in the very least.

Two Birds

All I have to say is PRO-CHOICE!!!!!!!

catefrances

Jason P wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

HeidiJam wrote:

So if we could develop an incubation system that allows the fetus/embryo to grow detached from the mother from the day she found out she was pregnant, would you be for or against abortion?

who do you reckon would pay for this incubation system and the care that that embryo/fetus would need? who would pay for the child once "born"? who would pay to raise the kid in a hospital type environment? certainly not the woman who gave up the baby, so again that will fall on the shoulders of the taxpayers. they would become a burden of the state, which you have said repeatedly that you are against doing. so where do we go from here?

The church and conservative / religious base would not approve of such a method as man would be playing God. Unless the Confederacy of Independent systems creates a separatist droid army that poses a threat to earth, I don't see this getting any backing.

Man already plays God.

haffajappa

Byrnzie wrote:

HeidiJam wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

I'd like the OP to respond to this post if and when he gets back from his banning.

??? Banned for what???
Why do you feel the need to lie on a message board???

I dunno, maybe this:

HeidiJam wrote:

You can't be this stupid can you?

HeidiJam wrote:

I am sorry I have to ask again, but are you really that stupid.

HeidiJam wrote:

wow you guys are idiots...

buddy called me an idiot and a clown for asking if he considered bullying a 'character builder' if it were his kids bullied
Doesn't exactly have the best filter if you haven't noticed.

Basically, if you don't believe in his beliefs you're an idiot, regardless of the 'logic'. :roll:

haffajappa

HeidiJam wrote:

haffajappa wrote:

HeidiJam wrote:

also why is it deemed bad when I want to be an individual and not pay into a social system that rewards laziness, why are my personal freedoms taken away, why is my hard earned money taken away to provide for people who are unable to take care of them selves ( and continue to pay for their kids who they can't afford). You will probably answer with "for the "greater good" or whatever your liberal/socialist rhetoric is. But yet you are all for the individual in terms of abortion and seem to ingnor the "Whats best for society is best for the individual" montra, why is that? I am pretty sure the abortion is not good part of society, why the double standard? Your trying to force me to pay for other peoples health care, yet jump up in arms when people think there should be regulations on abortions???

If you're sick of paying for others and their kids which they can't afford, you'd think you'd lean a little more towards pro choice...

And there are regulations on abortions... Is that what you are arguing? Because your OP is asking why it isn't considered murder... are there regulations on murders? (I mean in the same sense you think there should be regulations on abortions)

Its sick that its accepted around here to have children when you can't afford to feed/shelter/cloth, yourself.
There are many people out there who would gladly adopt/foster. Even programs can be set up to do so.

Good argument.............................. if there were empty orphanages and foster homes.

GTFLYGIRL

cincybearcat wrote:

I agree. I was using ridiculous statements, much like telling people that are against abortion to adopt every baby.

What do you think happens to 1000's of unwanted children? There are too many for our system to handle as it is. I am a Social Worker and have worked in Child Welfare since I first got out of undergrad in 1988. The foster care system SUCKS... and so does the adoption system that it is tied into... These are the unwanted children... I can't help but ask anyone who believes we should multiply the number of unwanted children in this fucked up system... TENFOLD.... by eliminating a woman's choice... just what he or she plans to do about THAT situation?

How do you think we should rectify the enormous number of unwanted children that would be born into the system... You have to remember...people that are forced to have babies are not going to get the best pre-natal care. If they are forced to have babies they dont want they may try to end the pregnancy themselves and in turn cause their child to be born premature and/or with multiple congenital anomolies. I have seen too many of these already. Kids left in garbage dumpsters and such... kids that were born to parents unable to handle parenting who ended up in the system after they LITERALLY had their brains shaken so much they were deaf... and blind.. and more... To take away choice would make the already over-burdened child welfare system and foster care system overloaded with children that nobody wanted.

So since you think that is what should happen... I personally think it is a logical and reasonable question to ask.. Just what do YOU plan to do to contribute to helping the innocent victims that are forced to be born into a world where NO ONE wants them. Many of them born at a physical disadvantage and most all of them without anyone to love, care, and nurture them. NOW THEY ARE VICTIMS!

How will you help those victims?

GTFLYGIRL

Byrnzie wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

I'd like the OP to respond to this post if and when he gets back from his banning.

I dunno, maybe this:

HeidiJam wrote:

You can't be this stupid can you?

HeidiJam wrote:

I am sorry I have to ask again, but are you really that stupid.

HeidiJam wrote:

wow you guys are idiots...

Yeah... he's a real charmer... Ended a post to me in the "What is the minimum income requirement for having sex" thread. with "Get a fucking brain."

How or why he isn't or hasn't been banned is beisde me.. I have seen many banned for a lot less than the insults and vulgar and derogatory crap he slings... oh well... im glad im not a mod. I'd want to ban half the people on here....

cincybearcat

GTFLYGIRL wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

I agree. I was using ridiculous statements, much like telling people that are against abortion to adopt every baby.

What do you think happens to 1000's of unwanted children? There are too many for our system to handle as it is. I am a Social Worker and have worked in Child Welfare since I first got out of undergrad in 1988. The foster care system SUCKS... and so does the adoption system that it is tied into... These are the unwanted children... I can't help but ask anyone who believes we should multiply the number of unwanted children in this fucked up system... TENFOLD.... by eliminating a woman's choice... just what he or she plans to do about THAT situation?

How do you think we should rectify the enormous number of unwanted children that would be born into the system... You have to remember...people that are forced to have babies are not going to get the best pre-natal care. If they are forced to have babies they dont want they may try to end the pregnancy themselves and in turn cause their child to be born premature and/or with multiple congenital anomolies. I have seen too many of these already. Kids left in garbage dumpsters and such... kids that were born to parents unable to handle parenting who ended up in the system after they LITERALLY had their brains shaken so much they were deaf... and blind.. and more... To take away choice would make the already over-burdened child welfare system and foster care system overloaded with children that nobody wanted.

So since you think that is what should happen... I personally think it is a logical and reasonable question to ask.. Just what do YOU plan to do to contribute to helping the innocent victims that are forced to be born into a world where NO ONE wants them. Many of them born at a physical disadvantage and most all of them without anyone to love, care, and nurture them. NOW THEY ARE VICTIMS!

How will you help those victims?

Did you read anything else? Man, it is becoming impossible to have a rational discussion here.

catefrances

cincybearcat wrote:

GTFLYGIRL wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

I agree. I was using ridiculous statements, much like telling people that are against abortion to adopt every baby.

What do you think happens to 1000's of unwanted children? There are too many for our system to handle as it is. I am a Social Worker and have worked in Child Welfare since I first got out of undergrad in 1988. The foster care system SUCKS... and so does the adoption system that it is tied into... These are the unwanted children... I can't help but ask anyone who believes we should multiply the number of unwanted children in this fucked up system... TENFOLD.... by eliminating a woman's choice... just what he or she plans to do about THAT situation?

How do you think we should rectify the enormous number of unwanted children that would be born into the system... You have to remember...people that are forced to have babies are not going to get the best pre-natal care. If they are forced to have babies they dont want they may try to end the pregnancy themselves and in turn cause their child to be born premature and/or with multiple congenital anomolies. I have seen too many of these already. Kids left in garbage dumpsters and such... kids that were born to parents unable to handle parenting who ended up in the system after they LITERALLY had their brains shaken so much they were deaf... and blind.. and more... To take away choice would make the already over-burdened child welfare system and foster care system overloaded with children that nobody wanted.

So since you think that is what should happen... I personally think it is a logical and reasonable question to ask.. Just what do YOU plan to do to contribute to helping the innocent victims that are forced to be born into a world where NO ONE wants them. Many of them born at a physical disadvantage and most all of them without anyone to love, care, and nurture them. NOW THEY ARE VICTIMS!

How will you help those victims?

Did you read anything else? Man, it is becoming impossible to have a rational discussion here.

well no its not. some of us would like to know what you all who oppose a womans right to choose, intend society does with the unwanted children who are given birth to cause for whatever reason you feel that every pregnancy be allowed to take its natural course... when there is a clear alternative out there. its a legitimate concern.