How can anyone justify this?

JonnyPistachio

he still stands wrote:

No, that's not what I said. I said "the best thing you can do is hang sheetrock..." NOT that if you do that you are automatically a failure. If you choose to do something like that then that's fine. I wish I could just have a few acres of land and be a small farmer. But I have the capability to be competitive in the job market if needed.

I'm not saying that I agree with this... THAT'S JUST THE WAY IT IS.

edit: my previous language including "loser of epic proportions" and "failure" wasn't called for. But yeah, if you're in the same job market as an illegal immigrant, you're doing something really, really, reallllly wrong.

ahh, gotcha.

samsonite

he still stands wrote:

hanging sheetrock, laying tile, even painting... those tasks are almost NEVER done by immigrants, at least in Arizona (where a huge % of the population is illegal). Some of my good friends out there own a residential renovation/building business and they said that illegals don't get involved in that stuff. Landscaping maybe... and some mindless work like packing boxes... but I just don't buy that illegals are constructing homes.

If the best thing you can do is hang sheetrock then you've failed as a human being. I hate to sound insensitive but this is a COMPETITIVE world we live in. It's your g'damn DUTY to be skilled at something to provide for yourself and your family. You can argue against that but if you do you're arguing against capitalism...

i've never lived in arizona but in southern california (which has a significant illegal immigrant population as well) many of the jobs you've described (hanging sheetrock, laying tile, painting, landscaping, and constructing homes, etc) have a considerable illegal immigrant workforce. in general

i think your statements are ridiculously ignorant. defining yourself by your occupation is not a HUMAN idea, it is a CAPITALIST/WESTERN CULTURE idea. a man who's only capable of hanging sheetrock is not a failure as a human being, maybe he's a failed capitalist, but NOT a failed human being. you may find your self-worth in the job you have or the money you make, but that doesn't mean all humankind places its value in a job or bank account. honestly, that seems like a pretty sad life, in my opinion.

ps, what's wrong with arguing against capitalism?!

Heineken Helen

he still stands wrote:

hanging sheetrock, laying tile, even painting... those tasks are almost NEVER done by immigrants, at least in Arizona (where a huge % of the population is illegal). Some of my good friends out there own a residential renovation/building business and they said that illegals don't get involved in that stuff. Landscaping maybe... and some mindless work like packing boxes... but I just don't buy that illegals are constructing homes.

If the best thing you can do is hang sheetrock then you've failed as a human being. I hate to sound insensitive but this is a COMPETITIVE world we live in. It's your g'damn DUTY to be skilled at something to provide for yourself and your family. You can argue against that but if you do you're arguing against capitalism...

If a human being is measured on what he/she earns, then yes you're right. But I think what you really mean is 'you've failed as a high earner'. Low earners are no less human than high earners and to say otherwise is the highest level of ignorance. Are you saying that the banker who got us all in this fucking mess in the first place but takes home a 7 figure bonus is of more benefit to the human race than somebody who cleans this planet we've made a mess of??? :roll:

That's some weird logic you got going on!

unsung

he still stands wrote:

hanging sheetrock, laying tile, even painting... those tasks are almost NEVER done by immigrants, at least in Arizona (where a huge % of the population is illegal). Some of my good friends out there own a residential renovation/building business and they said that illegals don't get involved in that stuff. Landscaping maybe... and some mindless work like packing boxes... but I just don't buy that illegals are constructing homes.

If the best thing you can do is hang sheetrock then you've failed as a human being. I hate to sound insensitive but this is a COMPETITIVE world we live in. It's your g'damn DUTY to be skilled at something to provide for yourself and your family. You can argue against that but if you do you're arguing against capitalism...

Here in Illinois when the housing market was booming in 2000-2005 I was a union IBEW electrical foreman for a local contractor that had $50M in sales. EVERY drywall installer was hispanic and they were always different every two weeks or so. I asked the foreman and he said the company had to keep firing them every payday because they could not verify citizenship or legal immigrant status. FACT.

I had a guy on my own crew who was a legal immigrant, I had to give him a day off each year to go to Chicago to update his paperwork. FACT.

With the fall of the market my carpenter friends and electrician friends have had to move to other careers, as I did myself. The carpenters had it tougher because the electricians had a tighter grip on their market. The carpenters had the choices of either starve, find another career, or switch to non-union to compete with illegals for what few homes were being built. The carpentry company that I worked alongside employed 1000 carpenters in the Chicago area, now there are less than a dozen. The carpenter foreman that was on the job with me was promoted to superintendent during the boom, he was going places. Now he welds cages inside of race cars. ALL FACTS.

When it was booming the drywallers, the siding people, the roofers, the cleaning people, and the concrete laborers were all under investigation for legal status. Of course when it crashed nobody was around to keep up with it. FACT.

unsung

Cosmo wrote:

...
Your friends had a choice to make... build houses faster at a lower, competative wage, become a general contractor... or find another line of work.

Yep you are right. Why when I suggested that people go back to school in an unemployment thread (of which I pointed out careers in nuclear that pay $100k+) I was told it wasn't really that possible because there were mortgages to pay, kids to feed, etc.? That I was the one being unreasonable?

Oh, next week my department will be placing a "help wanted" ad on the website for positions. There will be ten hires, starting at $65k and after a couple of years could easily be $100k with OT. I'm guessing not many, if any, took those classes that I said would help to get these jobs.

ed243421

samsonite wrote:

he still stands wrote:

hanging sheetrock, laying tile, even painting... those tasks are almost NEVER done by immigrants, at least in Arizona (where a huge % of the population is illegal). Some of my good friends out there own a residential renovation/building business and they said that illegals don't get involved in that stuff. Landscaping maybe... and some mindless work like packing boxes... but I just don't buy that illegals are constructing homes.

If the best thing you can do is hang sheetrock then you've failed as a human being. I hate to sound insensitive but this is a COMPETITIVE world we live in. It's your g'damn DUTY to be skilled at something to provide for yourself and your family. You can argue against that but if you do you're arguing against capitalism...

i've never lived in arizona but in southern california (which has a significant illegal immigrant population as well) many of the jobs you've described (hanging sheetrock, laying tile, painting, landscaping, and constructing homes, etc) have a considerable illegal immigrant workforce. in general

i think your statements are ridiculously ignorant. defining yourself by your occupation is not a HUMAN idea, it is a CAPITALIST/WESTERN CULTURE idea. a man who's only capable of hanging sheetrock is not a failure as a human being, maybe he's a failed capitalist, but NOT a failed human being. you may find your self-worth in the job you have or the money you make, but that doesn't mean all humankind places its value in a job or bank account. honestly, that seems like a pretty sad life, in my opinion.

ps, what's wrong with arguing against capitalism?!

the truth

he still stands

samsonite wrote:

he still stands wrote:

hanging sheetrock, laying tile, even painting... those tasks are almost NEVER done by immigrants, at least in Arizona (where a huge % of the population is illegal). Some of my good friends out there own a residential renovation/building business and they said that illegals don't get involved in that stuff. Landscaping maybe... and some mindless work like packing boxes... but I just don't buy that illegals are constructing homes.

If the best thing you can do is hang sheetrock then you've failed as a human being. I hate to sound insensitive but this is a COMPETITIVE world we live in. It's your g'damn DUTY to be skilled at something to provide for yourself and your family. You can argue against that but if you do you're arguing against capitalism...

i think your statements are ridiculously ignorant. defining yourself by your occupation is not a HUMAN idea, it is a CAPITALIST/WESTERN CULTURE idea. a man who's only capable of hanging sheetrock is not a failure as a human being, maybe he's a failed capitalist, but NOT a failed human being. you may find your self-worth in the job you have or the money you make, but that doesn't mean all humankind places its value in a job or bank account. honestly, that seems like a pretty sad life, in my opinion.

ps, what's wrong with arguing against capitalism?!

I thought I made it abundantly clear that I'm advocating this lifestyle... but that's the way capitalism works. Think of money as tickets. You need tickets to go on the ride. Without tickets you can't experience much in this world beyond a subsistence lifestyle. Sure you can have a good family, friends, be healthy, and so forth (which is great for a lot of people) but for Christ's sake, we live in a world where you can hop on a plane tomorrow and go see Macchu Picchu, or jump from a plane from 10,000 feet, or sail across an ocean, or drive a fucking Ferrari, or even go into outer fucking space IF YOU HAVE ENOUGH TICKETS to play the game, enjoy the rides.

If you're in a job where you can't even beat out an illegal immigrant for tickets... you have absolutely failed in the 21st century capitalistic world if you want to enjoy the ride of life. If you're fine not going on the ride then fine... I'm not here to judge anyone.

I can't understand why anyone would disagree with this... :? And again, I'm not arguing that this is the "right" way just that it's the way it is. In this system people are standing on each other's shoulders and trying to get to the top of this fucking pyramid scheme and the majority of people are left trampled and bloodied at a young age.

Illegal immigrants are trying to join in but because of some imaginary boundary we're telling them they can't... and they sure as hell don't stand a chance in Mexico unless they want to get involved in drugs. I say open the borders, let the banks and states go bankrupt, stop all military expenditures, end the war on drugs, end usury tariffs quotas and even landlordism... let the free market reign.

Jason P

he still stands wrote:

Illegal immigrants are trying to join in but because of some imaginary boundary we're telling them they can't... and they sure as hell don't stand a chance in Mexico unless they want to get involved in drugs. I say open the borders, let the banks and states go bankrupt, stop all military expenditures, end the war on drugs, end usury tariffs quotas and even landlordism... let the free market reign.

You want to cede the US to Mexico?

unsung

If the borders were opened all forms of welfare need to end. We would cease to exist if not.

Cosmo

unsung wrote:

If the borders were opened all forms of welfare need to end. We would cease to exist if not.

...
Is that so we can have more people living in the streets? Wouldn't that be bad for tourism?

unsung

So do you expect the people that do have jobs support the flood of unskilled laborers that is bound to enter? Where are the jobs for them when we have 10% unemployment already?

Cosmo

unsung wrote:

So do you expect the people that do have jobs support the flood of unskilled laborers that is bound to enter? Where are the jobs for them when we have 10% unemployment already?

...
Q: Where are the jobs for them when we have 10% unemployment already?
A: Gone. They went to China and they ain't never coming back (unless we accept similar pay rates to compete with Chinese labor).
...
I just asked you if we got rid of Welfare.... what would we do with the people on Welfare? Kill them? Let them starve? What? What do you want to do with them?

Hugh Freaking Dillon

he still stands wrote:

If you're in a job where you can't even beat out an illegal immigrant for tickets... you have absolutely failed in the 21st century capitalistic world if you want to enjoy the ride of life. If you're fine not going on the ride then fine... I'm not here to judge anyone.

telling me I failed because I don't have enough tickets to catch a ride to the moon sounds like judgment to me. sounds like a spoiled brat talking, to be honest with you (not saying you are, I just picture some dumb-ass socialite saying something like this).

Blockhead

Cosmo wrote:

unsung wrote:

So do you expect the people that do have jobs support the flood of unskilled laborers that is bound to enter? Where are the jobs for them when we have 10% unemployment already?

...
Q: Where are the jobs for them when we have 10% unemployment already?
A: Gone. They went to China and they ain't never coming back (unless we accept similar pay rates to compete with Chinese labor).
...
I just asked you if we got rid of Welfare.... what would we do with the people on Welfare? Kill them? Let them starve? What? What do you want to do with them?

Your right... People taking responsibility for their own life is an absurd expectation...
What do you want to do with them you ask, how about a little tough love and let them take responsibility for their actions. Why do you think its acceptable for welfare families to continue to have children that they can not take care of, not even buy them basic school supplies???

Hugh Freaking Dillon

for their actions? that's absurd. that's about as priveledged a statement as I've read in some time.

HeidiJam wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

unsung wrote:

So do you expect the people that do have jobs support the flood of unskilled laborers that is bound to enter? Where are the jobs for them when we have 10% unemployment already?

...
Q: Where are the jobs for them when we have 10% unemployment already?
A: Gone. They went to China and they ain't never coming back (unless we accept similar pay rates to compete with Chinese labor).
...
I just asked you if we got rid of Welfare.... what would we do with the people on Welfare? Kill them? Let them starve? What? What do you want to do with them?

Your right... People taking responsibility for their own life is an absurd expectation...
What do you want to do with them you ask, how about a little tough love and let them take responsibility for their actions. Why do you think its acceptable for welfare families to continue to have children that they can not take care of, not even buy them basic school supplies???

redrock

he still stands wrote:

Sure you can have a good family, friends, be healthy, and so forth (which is great for a lot of people) but for Christ's sake, we live in a world where you can hop on a plane tomorrow and go see Macchu Picchu, or jump from a plane from 10,000 feet, or sail across an ocean, or drive a fucking Ferrari, or even go into outer fucking space IF YOU HAVE ENOUGH TICKETS to play the game, enjoy the rides.

Highlighted in red - most important 'things' one can have. What use are your 'tickets' if you don't have the health to use them? What use are your tickets if you don't have anyone to share your thoughts/experiences with? I will take good family, friends and health ANYTIME over driving a Ferrari or anything else like that. One needs to get their priorities right. Your means of getting these tickets can crumble at any time and, if your main pursuit in life was trying to get tickets, you are then left with nothing. Quite sad and pathetic. Of course one wants to be able to enjoy the material things that are on offer but going for everything material, leaving the rest behind is a very shallow way to live. This is not capitalism.

know1

unsung wrote:

If the borders were opened all forms of welfare need to end. We would cease to exist if not.

Nah - people who didn't like things in the US could go somewhere else instead of whining and complaining about people different from themselves taking money from our government.

unsung

I know that our current government thinks money grows on trees but where do you think the government gets the money?

he still stands

Paul David wrote:

he still stands wrote:

If you're in a job where you can't even beat out an illegal immigrant for tickets... you have absolutely failed in the 21st century capitalistic world if you want to enjoy the ride of life. If you're fine not going on the ride then fine... I'm not here to judge anyone.

telling me I failed because I don't have enough tickets to catch a ride to the moon sounds like judgment to me. sounds like a spoiled brat talking, to be honest with you (not saying you are, I just picture some dumb-ass socialite saying something like this).

I grew up on a farm, paid my own way through college and grad school, and now I'm a CPA and hope to be a farmer again within 10 or 15 years. I grew up on food stamps and WalMart clothes.

I don't own anything of value except my house and my car. Even my furniture and clothes are pretty much worthless. But you know what??? I really fucking enjoy taking two weeks to follow Pearl Jam or Furthur, or going to Jamaica, or spending a week skiing in Vermont. I could choose to not increase my worth to society so that I'm as valuable as an illegal immigrant who can't even speak the fucking language, and then not have any opportunity to do these things. But, that seems like a lazy and stupid way to go about life.

I don't really know why I'm defending myself to a bunch of contrarians who can't seem to understand a very simple point. Money ain't everything but SOMETIMES it is really fucking nice to have. Or do none of you go to see Pearl Jam shows? Or do anything that requires leaving your city and enjoying life? For Christ's fucking sake... You can't do these things making minimum wage because you're in the same job market as an illegal immigrant.

he still stands

unsung wrote:

So do you expect the people that do have jobs support the flood of unskilled laborers that is bound to enter? Where are the jobs for them when we have 10% unemployment already?

Capitalism doesn't work for two reasons: 1) there is a tendency for wealth to accumulate at the top without measures to distribute wealth 2) a free market is necessary for economic equilibrium but it is a pipe dream.

You can't have free trade with immobile labor. Adam Smith made it very clear that the free trade capitalist society cannot reach equilibrium without labor mobility (as well as other Protectionist measures such as tariffs, quotas [and if we're being honest here; usury, taxes, landlordism, and the State]). Labor immobility in this case is a Protectionist measure for the citizens of a country... not for business.

Another free market trait is the ability for labor to organize. Labor Movements (which Adam Smith also advocated) are a fundamental responsibility of laborers if they (we) are worried about losing our job to less effective, efficent, or unproductive workers. Of course, if you hold absolutely ZERO value to your employer, why wouldn't he replace you with another person who will do the same job for less money?