How can anyone justify this?

usamamasan1

The total cost of $1.6 billion does not account for the LA County School system which is a different entitiy and they could not comment on what the school system spends on educating illegal children. This is not a trivial amount.

there is so much tax payer abuse going on due to poor government decisions based upon mis applied notions of political correctness. Shouldn't we at least cut waste and non essential services before we even think about raising taxes?

Here's a start...

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... 1HBN3R.DTL

aerial

Who held these jobs before the illegals?

whygohome

aerial wrote:

Who held these jobs before the illegals?

A great question that I do not have an answer to.

he still stands

aerial wrote:

Who held these jobs before the illegals?

children, indentured servants, etc.

Seriously, if you're (I'm using the "you" pronoun because I'm lazy not because I think YOU are) in the same job market as an illegal immigrant you are a loser of such epic proportions that it's not funny. They don't speak the language and that's a huge negative for many people, but jesus christ, what do they do your job training in? Pantomime? You never see people with even a SEMBLANCE of talent, training, or intelligence that is complaining about losing their job to an illegal immigrant.

samsonite

whygohome wrote:

aerial wrote:

Who held these jobs before the illegals?

A great question that I do not have an answer to.

their fathers and grandfathers, they just became illegal 160 years ago when the americans moved in.
(i know this is a crude retelling of california history but it's fairly accurate.)

samsonite

he still stands wrote:

aerial wrote:

Who held these jobs before the illegals?

children, indentured servants, etc.

Seriously, if you're (I'm using the "you" pronoun because I'm lazy not because I think YOU are) in the same job market as an illegal immigrant you are a loser of such epic proportions that it's not funny. They don't speak the language and that's a huge negative for many people, but jesus christ, what do they do your job training in? Pantomime? You never see people with even a SEMBLANCE of talent, training, or intelligence that is complaining about losing their job to an illegal immigrant.

a very eloquent and thoughtful response. :yawn:

Cosmo

unsung wrote:

Jail CEOs of companies that hire illegals. We have 10% unemployment, the jobs WILL fill.

Since there are no longer jobs for illegals most will self deport.

...
Why just CEOs? What about the small business owner? You know, those 'Mom and Pop' operations. You don't think those small farmers are hiring illegals, too? What about those independent restaurants that hire illegals? Don't they belong in prison, too? How about the small companies that operate landscaping services, building maintenence and custodial services that are hiring illegals? Put them in jail, too... right?
So, instead of paying for welfare and food stamps, we'll be paying for prisons.

Cosmo

he still stands wrote:

aerial wrote:

Who held these jobs before the illegals?

children, indentured servants, etc.

Seriously, if you're (I'm using the "you" pronoun because I'm lazy not because I think YOU are) in the same job market as an illegal immigrant you are a loser of such epic proportions that it's not funny. They don't speak the language and that's a huge negative for many people, but jesus christ, what do they do your job training in? Pantomime? You never see people with even a SEMBLANCE of talent, training, or intelligence that is complaining about losing their job to an illegal immigrant.

...
Add... who built the railroads?
What did 'Americans' want to do with them, once the railroads were built?
...
And I agree... who fucking WANTS the job an illegal is now doing for minimum wage or less? Wouldn't the turnover rate be humongous? I mean, who wants a career as a Bus Boy? Who seeks a career in grape picking?

usamamasan1

samsonite wrote:

free steak? i would guess you haven't had to support a family with government assistance/welfare.

and what would your solution be? cut out the "government steaks" so the poor would really learn to appreciate being paid peanuts?

my almost two year old loves these. got to teach them young!

Cosmo

I believe we need to step back an take a good, long, intelligent look at the big picture and come up with a workable solution. Identify the pros and cons of illegal immigration and address each issue. Look at the social and economic impacts on the options that are presented as solutions and figure out what is best.
I believe we should get Mexico and the other Central American countries involved and work towards a humanitarian solution... because I see these workers as people... not animals or insects. And yes... it is a difficult overall issue with complex facets involved and decisions made as solutions will have differing consequences that will create more, possibly greater problems. Not an easy task and way beyond the moronic, 'Deport Them All' proposal. For difficult problems... the simplest answer is typically the wrong answer.
The primary problem with that, it requires compromise. And compromise isn't a part of the discussion, here in America.

unsung

he still stands wrote:

Pantomime? You never see people with even a SEMBLANCE of talent, training, or intelligence that is complaining about losing their job to an illegal immigrant.

I'll ask my friends, that used to build houses for a decent wage, and see how they feel about that statement.

aerial

Cosmo wrote:

I believe we need to step back an take a good, long, intelligent look at the big picture and come up with a workable solution. Identify the pros and cons of illegal immigration and address each issue. Look at the social and economic impacts on the options that are presented as solutions and figure out what is best.
I believe we should get Mexico and the other Central American countries involved and work towards a humanitarian solution... because I see these workers as people... not animals or insects. And yes... it is a difficult overall issue with complex facets involved and decisions made as solutions will have differing consequences that will create more, possibly greater problems. Not an easy task and way beyond the moronic, 'Deport Them All' proposal. For difficult problems... the simplest answer is typically the wrong answer.
The primary problem with that, it requires compromise. And compromise isn't a part of the discussion, here in America.

You would make a great politician. First you agree with this

Seriously, if you're (I'm using the "you" pronoun because I'm lazy not because I think YOU are) in the same job market as an illegal immigrant you are a loser of such epic proportions that it's not funny. They don't speak the language and that's a huge negative for many people, but jesus christ, what do they do your job training in? Pantomime? You never see people with even a SEMBLANCE of talent, training, or intelligence that is complaining about losing their job to an illegal immigrant.

Then you want to get all "Kum Ba Yah". on us and say how you see them as "people".
Or is it only Americans that hold those jobs you see as loosers?

he still stands

unsung wrote:

he still stands wrote:

Pantomime? You never see people with even a SEMBLANCE of talent, training, or intelligence that is complaining about losing their job to an illegal immigrant.

I'll ask my friends, that used to build houses for a decent wage, and see how they feel about that statement.

Go ahead. They don't exist dude, and you know it. Illegal immigrants can't get a job building a house, that is silly. They work in fields, pack boxes, absolutely MINDLESS stuff. I've NEVER heard of first hand experience of someone losing a job to an illegal immigrant, and I lived in Arizona for three years. I don't know why people have this attitude of "I won't be arsed to learn a trade or become VALUABLE in my occupation!!!" Just a little bit of work towards a talent, a trade, an education, whatever... and you don't have to worry about "der takin err joooobz!"

Cosmo

aerial wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

I believe we need to step back an take a good, long, intelligent look at the big picture and come up with a workable solution. Identify the pros and cons of illegal immigration and address each issue. Look at the social and economic impacts on the options that are presented as solutions and figure out what is best.
I believe we should get Mexico and the other Central American countries involved and work towards a humanitarian solution... because I see these workers as people... not animals or insects. And yes... it is a difficult overall issue with complex facets involved and decisions made as solutions will have differing consequences that will create more, possibly greater problems. Not an easy task and way beyond the moronic, 'Deport Them All' proposal. For difficult problems... the simplest answer is typically the wrong answer.
The primary problem with that, it requires compromise. And compromise isn't a part of the discussion, here in America.

You would make a great politician. First you agree with this

Seriously, if you're (I'm using the "you" pronoun because I'm lazy not because I think YOU are) in the same job market as an illegal immigrant you are a loser of such epic proportions that it's not funny. They don't speak the language and that's a huge negative for many people, but jesus christ, what do they do your job training in? Pantomime? You never see people with even a SEMBLANCE of talent, training, or intelligence that is complaining about losing their job to an illegal immigrant.

Then you want to get all "Kum Ba Yah". on us and say how you see them as "people".
Or is it only Americans that hold those jobs you see as loosers?

...
Hmmmm... I guess you need a clue, huh?
In both instances... the illegals ARE humans. Humans willing to do a job without all of the entitlements American workers expect (minimum wage, safe workplace, overtime pay, etc...). The point being made... which I agree with... is that if you are an American... you have to be a total loser to aspire to be a janitor or an onion picker. To WANT some of the jobs that the illegal immigrants are taking... for the wages we are paying them... and the hours we are working them... well, what do you call that American? Do you want your kids to grow up and be profesional bus boys?
...
I hope that cleared it up for you. I understand... politicking is hard... but, stick with it. I'm hoping you'll eventually get a grasp on it.

blackredyellow

he still stands wrote:

unsung wrote:

he still stands wrote:

Pantomime? You never see people with even a SEMBLANCE of talent, training, or intelligence that is complaining about losing their job to an illegal immigrant.

I'll ask my friends, that used to build houses for a decent wage, and see how they feel about that statement.

Go ahead. They don't exist dude, and you know it. Illegal immigrants can't get a job building a house, that is silly. They work in fields, pack boxes, absolutely MINDLESS stuff. I've NEVER heard of first hand experience of someone losing a job to an illegal immigrant, and I lived in Arizona for three years. I don't know why people have this attitude of "I won't be arsed to learn a trade or become VALUABLE in my occupation!!!" Just a little bit of work towards a talent, a trade, an education, whatever... and you don't have to worry about "der takin err joooobz!"

I hate to agree with unsung on anything regarding the immigration issue, but he is right about the construction business. Illegals are used in home construction for everything from drywall to painting to roofing. I don't know how widespread it is, but it does happen.

But that goes to one of cosmos points... do you throw the guy who owns a little home construction business in jail because he used a couple day laborers to hang sheetrock? I just don't see how that is productive for anyone involved.

Cosmo

unsung wrote:

he still stands wrote:

Pantomime? You never see people with even a SEMBLANCE of talent, training, or intelligence that is complaining about losing their job to an illegal immigrant.

I'll ask my friends, that used to build houses for a decent wage, and see how they feel about that statement.

...
Your friends had a choice to make... build houses faster at a lower, competative wage, become a general contractor... or find another line of work. Construction work is just like any other work... susceptible to market decisions (i.e. outsourcing). The difference being, the houses have to be built here, the workers are found elsewhere. To make those houses affordable to you and me... the costs have to remain low. How do you do that? Make the materials cheaper and reduce labor costs.
Your construction worker friends should blame Capitalism and market trends.
Is it a shitty deal for your friends? Yeah... no one wants to see any of us lose our jobs. But, think about those jobs... how hard is it to show someone how to hang drywall or laying tile? Your friends could learn a trade that requires state licensing, such as electrician... but, trying to continue to do work that someone else is willing to do for less is pretty much setting yourself up to compete with them or find something else.

Cosmo

blackredyellow wrote:

I hate to agree with unsung on anything regarding the immigration issue, but he is right about the construction business. Illegals are used in home construction for everything from drywall to painting to roofing. I don't know how widespread it is, but it does happen.

But that goes to one of cosmos points... do you throw the guy who owns a little home construction business in jail because he used a couple day laborers to hang sheetrock? I just don't see how that is productive for anyone involved.

...
And another thing... not all of the construction workers are here illegally. Many of them are American citizens, typically with no education and are willing to work under the table to avoid income taxes. If general contractors want to keep more money for themselves... they hire the person who is willing to do the work for the least amount of pay. A bonus... if an illegal falls of the roof and sprains his ankle... no problem. Just cut him loose and get someone else until he's healed up.
You won't find illegal immigrants in the Iron Workers Union... but, you will find them working on the construction sites cleaning up shit, sweeping, etc... so you don't have a highly paid Union man pushing a broom. He is up 16 stories welding iron.

he still stands

hanging sheetrock, laying tile, even painting... those tasks are almost NEVER done by immigrants, at least in Arizona (where a huge % of the population is illegal). Some of my good friends out there own a residential renovation/building business and they said that illegals don't get involved in that stuff. Landscaping maybe... and some mindless work like packing boxes... but I just don't buy that illegals are constructing homes.

If the best thing you can do is hang sheetrock then you've failed as a human being. I hate to sound insensitive but this is a COMPETITIVE world we live in. It's your g'damn DUTY to be skilled at something to provide for yourself and your family. You can argue against that but if you do you're arguing against capitalism...

JonnyPistachio

he still stands wrote:

If the best thing you can do is hang sheetrock then you've failed as a human being. I hate to sound insensitive but this is a COMPETITIVE world we live in. It's your g'damn DUTY to be skilled at something to provide for yourself and your family. You can argue against that but if you do you're arguing against capitalism...

Thats an awfully close-minded though process. I have a 37 year old friend who has a masters degree in computer science, and he is a busboy. He is the happiest person I know. Of course this is an extreme case, but to say that someone who hangs sheetrock or is a busboy has failed as a human being is narrow.

Also, I live in South Fla where there is a huge population of Guatemalans that are here illegally. They do work on houses. I guess it just depends where you are though because the majority work in fields and on landscaping, but some do work on houses.

he still stands

No, that's not what I said. I said "the best thing you can do is hang sheetrock..." NOT that if you do that you are automatically a failure. If you choose to do something like that then that's fine. I wish I could just have a few acres of land and be a small farmer. But I have the capability to be competitive in the job market if needed.

I'm not saying that I agree with this... THAT'S JUST THE WAY IT IS.

edit: my previous language including "loser of epic proportions" and "failure" wasn't called for. But yeah, if you're in the same job market as an illegal immigrant, you're doing something really, really, reallllly wrong.