Pantomime? You never see people with even a SEMBLANCE of talent, training, or intelligence that is complaining about losing their job to an illegal immigrant.
I'll ask my friends, that used to build houses for a decent wage, and see how they feel about that statement.
I believe we need to step back an take a good, long, intelligent look at the big picture and come up with a workable solution. Identify the pros and cons of illegal immigration and address each issue. Look at the social and economic impacts on the options that are presented as solutions and figure out what is best.
I believe we should get Mexico and the other Central American countries involved and work towards a humanitarian solution... because I see these workers as people... not animals or insects. And yes... it is a difficult overall issue with complex facets involved and decisions made as solutions will have differing consequences that will create more, possibly greater problems. Not an easy task and way beyond the moronic, 'Deport Them All' proposal. For difficult problems... the simplest answer is typically the wrong answer.
The primary problem with that, it requires compromise. And compromise isn't a part of the discussion, here in America.
You would make a great politician. First you agree with this
Seriously, if you're (I'm using the "you" pronoun because I'm lazy not because I think YOU are) in the same job market as an illegal immigrant you are a loser of such epic proportions that it's not funny. They don't speak the language and that's a huge negative for many people, but jesus christ, what do they do your job training in? Pantomime? You never see people with even a SEMBLANCE of talent, training, or intelligence that is complaining about losing their job to an illegal immigrant.
Then you want to get all "Kum Ba Yah". on us and say how you see them as "people".
Or is it only Americans that hold those jobs you see as loosers?
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
Pantomime? You never see people with even a SEMBLANCE of talent, training, or intelligence that is complaining about losing their job to an illegal immigrant.
I'll ask my friends, that used to build houses for a decent wage, and see how they feel about that statement.
Go ahead. They don't exist dude, and you know it. Illegal immigrants can't get a job building a house, that is silly. They work in fields, pack boxes, absolutely MINDLESS stuff. I've NEVER heard of first hand experience of someone losing a job to an illegal immigrant, and I lived in Arizona for three years. I don't know why people have this attitude of "I won't be arsed to learn a trade or become VALUABLE in my occupation!!!" Just a little bit of work towards a talent, a trade, an education, whatever... and you don't have to worry about "der takin err joooobz!"
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
I believe we need to step back an take a good, long, intelligent look at the big picture and come up with a workable solution. Identify the pros and cons of illegal immigration and address each issue. Look at the social and economic impacts on the options that are presented as solutions and figure out what is best.
I believe we should get Mexico and the other Central American countries involved and work towards a humanitarian solution... because I see these workers as people... not animals or insects. And yes... it is a difficult overall issue with complex facets involved and decisions made as solutions will have differing consequences that will create more, possibly greater problems. Not an easy task and way beyond the moronic, 'Deport Them All' proposal. For difficult problems... the simplest answer is typically the wrong answer.
The primary problem with that, it requires compromise. And compromise isn't a part of the discussion, here in America.
You would make a great politician. First you agree with this
Seriously, if you're (I'm using the "you" pronoun because I'm lazy not because I think YOU are) in the same job market as an illegal immigrant you are a loser of such epic proportions that it's not funny. They don't speak the language and that's a huge negative for many people, but jesus christ, what do they do your job training in? Pantomime? You never see people with even a SEMBLANCE of talent, training, or intelligence that is complaining about losing their job to an illegal immigrant.
Then you want to get all "Kum Ba Yah". on us and say how you see them as "people".
Or is it only Americans that hold those jobs you see as loosers?
...
Hmmmm... I guess you need a clue, huh?
In both instances... the illegals ARE humans. Humans willing to do a job without all of the entitlements American workers expect (minimum wage, safe workplace, overtime pay, etc...). The point being made... which I agree with... is that if you are an American... you have to be a total loser to aspire to be a janitor or an onion picker. To WANT some of the jobs that the illegal immigrants are taking... for the wages we are paying them... and the hours we are working them... well, what do you call that American? Do you want your kids to grow up and be profesional bus boys?
...
I hope that cleared it up for you. I understand... politicking is hard... but, stick with it. I'm hoping you'll eventually get a grasp on it.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Pantomime? You never see people with even a SEMBLANCE of talent, training, or intelligence that is complaining about losing their job to an illegal immigrant.
I'll ask my friends, that used to build houses for a decent wage, and see how they feel about that statement.
Go ahead. They don't exist dude, and you know it. Illegal immigrants can't get a job building a house, that is silly. They work in fields, pack boxes, absolutely MINDLESS stuff. I've NEVER heard of first hand experience of someone losing a job to an illegal immigrant, and I lived in Arizona for three years. I don't know why people have this attitude of "I won't be arsed to learn a trade or become VALUABLE in my occupation!!!" Just a little bit of work towards a talent, a trade, an education, whatever... and you don't have to worry about "der takin err joooobz!"
I hate to agree with unsung on anything regarding the immigration issue, but he is right about the construction business. Illegals are used in home construction for everything from drywall to painting to roofing. I don't know how widespread it is, but it does happen.
But that goes to one of cosmos points... do you throw the guy who owns a little home construction business in jail because he used a couple day laborers to hang sheetrock? I just don't see how that is productive for anyone involved.
My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
Pantomime? You never see people with even a SEMBLANCE of talent, training, or intelligence that is complaining about losing their job to an illegal immigrant.
I'll ask my friends, that used to build houses for a decent wage, and see how they feel about that statement.
...
Your friends had a choice to make... build houses faster at a lower, competative wage, become a general contractor... or find another line of work. Construction work is just like any other work... susceptible to market decisions (i.e. outsourcing). The difference being, the houses have to be built here, the workers are found elsewhere. To make those houses affordable to you and me... the costs have to remain low. How do you do that? Make the materials cheaper and reduce labor costs.
Your construction worker friends should blame Capitalism and market trends.
Is it a shitty deal for your friends? Yeah... no one wants to see any of us lose our jobs. But, think about those jobs... how hard is it to show someone how to hang drywall or laying tile? Your friends could learn a trade that requires state licensing, such as electrician... but, trying to continue to do work that someone else is willing to do for less is pretty much setting yourself up to compete with them or find something else.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I hate to agree with unsung on anything regarding the immigration issue, but he is right about the construction business. Illegals are used in home construction for everything from drywall to painting to roofing. I don't know how widespread it is, but it does happen.
But that goes to one of cosmos points... do you throw the guy who owns a little home construction business in jail because he used a couple day laborers to hang sheetrock? I just don't see how that is productive for anyone involved.
...
And another thing... not all of the construction workers are here illegally. Many of them are American citizens, typically with no education and are willing to work under the table to avoid income taxes. If general contractors want to keep more money for themselves... they hire the person who is willing to do the work for the least amount of pay. A bonus... if an illegal falls of the roof and sprains his ankle... no problem. Just cut him loose and get someone else until he's healed up.
You won't find illegal immigrants in the Iron Workers Union... but, you will find them working on the construction sites cleaning up shit, sweeping, etc... so you don't have a highly paid Union man pushing a broom. He is up 16 stories welding iron.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
hanging sheetrock, laying tile, even painting... those tasks are almost NEVER done by immigrants, at least in Arizona (where a huge % of the population is illegal). Some of my good friends out there own a residential renovation/building business and they said that illegals don't get involved in that stuff. Landscaping maybe... and some mindless work like packing boxes... but I just don't buy that illegals are constructing homes.
If the best thing you can do is hang sheetrock then you've failed as a human being. I hate to sound insensitive but this is a COMPETITIVE world we live in. It's your g'damn DUTY to be skilled at something to provide for yourself and your family. You can argue against that but if you do you're arguing against capitalism...
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
If the best thing you can do is hang sheetrock then you've failed as a human being. I hate to sound insensitive but this is a COMPETITIVE world we live in. It's your g'damn DUTY to be skilled at something to provide for yourself and your family. You can argue against that but if you do you're arguing against capitalism...
Thats an awfully close-minded though process. I have a 37 year old friend who has a masters degree in computer science, and he is a busboy. He is the happiest person I know. Of course this is an extreme case, but to say that someone who hangs sheetrock or is a busboy has failed as a human being is narrow.
Also, I live in South Fla where there is a huge population of Guatemalans that are here illegally. They do work on houses. I guess it just depends where you are though because the majority work in fields and on landscaping, but some do work on houses.
No, that's not what I said. I said "the best thing you can do is hang sheetrock..." NOT that if you do that you are automatically a failure. If you choose to do something like that then that's fine. I wish I could just have a few acres of land and be a small farmer. But I have the capability to be competitive in the job market if needed.
I'm not saying that I agree with this... THAT'S JUST THE WAY IT IS.
edit: my previous language including "loser of epic proportions" and "failure" wasn't called for. But yeah, if you're in the same job market as an illegal immigrant, you're doing something really, really, reallllly wrong.
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
No, that's not what I said. I said "the best thing you can do is hang sheetrock..." NOT that if you do that you are automatically a failure. If you choose to do something like that then that's fine. I wish I could just have a few acres of land and be a small farmer. But I have the capability to be competitive in the job market if needed.
I'm not saying that I agree with this... THAT'S JUST THE WAY IT IS.
edit: my previous language including "loser of epic proportions" and "failure" wasn't called for. But yeah, if you're in the same job market as an illegal immigrant, you're doing something really, really, reallllly wrong.
hanging sheetrock, laying tile, even painting... those tasks are almost NEVER done by immigrants, at least in Arizona (where a huge % of the population is illegal). Some of my good friends out there own a residential renovation/building business and they said that illegals don't get involved in that stuff. Landscaping maybe... and some mindless work like packing boxes... but I just don't buy that illegals are constructing homes.
If the best thing you can do is hang sheetrock then you've failed as a human being. I hate to sound insensitive but this is a COMPETITIVE world we live in. It's your g'damn DUTY to be skilled at something to provide for yourself and your family. You can argue against that but if you do you're arguing against capitalism...
i've never lived in arizona but in southern california (which has a significant illegal immigrant population as well) many of the jobs you've described (hanging sheetrock, laying tile, painting, landscaping, and constructing homes, etc) have a considerable illegal immigrant workforce. in general
i think your statements are ridiculously ignorant. defining yourself by your occupation is not a HUMAN idea, it is a CAPITALIST/WESTERN CULTURE idea. a man who's only capable of hanging sheetrock is not a failure as a human being, maybe he's a failed capitalist, but NOT a failed human being. you may find your self-worth in the job you have or the money you make, but that doesn't mean all humankind places its value in a job or bank account. honestly, that seems like a pretty sad life, in my opinion.
ps, what's wrong with arguing against capitalism?!
hanging sheetrock, laying tile, even painting... those tasks are almost NEVER done by immigrants, at least in Arizona (where a huge % of the population is illegal). Some of my good friends out there own a residential renovation/building business and they said that illegals don't get involved in that stuff. Landscaping maybe... and some mindless work like packing boxes... but I just don't buy that illegals are constructing homes.
If the best thing you can do is hang sheetrock then you've failed as a human being. I hate to sound insensitive but this is a COMPETITIVE world we live in. It's your g'damn DUTY to be skilled at something to provide for yourself and your family. You can argue against that but if you do you're arguing against capitalism...
If a human being is measured on what he/she earns, then yes you're right. But I think what you really mean is 'you've failed as a high earner'. Low earners are no less human than high earners and to say otherwise is the highest level of ignorance. Are you saying that the banker who got us all in this fucking mess in the first place but takes home a 7 figure bonus is of more benefit to the human race than somebody who cleans this planet we've made a mess of??? :roll:
That's some weird logic you got going on!
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
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unsung
I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
hanging sheetrock, laying tile, even painting... those tasks are almost NEVER done by immigrants, at least in Arizona (where a huge % of the population is illegal). Some of my good friends out there own a residential renovation/building business and they said that illegals don't get involved in that stuff. Landscaping maybe... and some mindless work like packing boxes... but I just don't buy that illegals are constructing homes.
If the best thing you can do is hang sheetrock then you've failed as a human being. I hate to sound insensitive but this is a COMPETITIVE world we live in. It's your g'damn DUTY to be skilled at something to provide for yourself and your family. You can argue against that but if you do you're arguing against capitalism...
Here in Illinois when the housing market was booming in 2000-2005 I was a union IBEW electrical foreman for a local contractor that had $50M in sales. EVERY drywall installer was hispanic and they were always different every two weeks or so. I asked the foreman and he said the company had to keep firing them every payday because they could not verify citizenship or legal immigrant status. FACT.
I had a guy on my own crew who was a legal immigrant, I had to give him a day off each year to go to Chicago to update his paperwork. FACT.
With the fall of the market my carpenter friends and electrician friends have had to move to other careers, as I did myself. The carpenters had it tougher because the electricians had a tighter grip on their market. The carpenters had the choices of either starve, find another career, or switch to non-union to compete with illegals for what few homes were being built. The carpentry company that I worked alongside employed 1000 carpenters in the Chicago area, now there are less than a dozen. The carpenter foreman that was on the job with me was promoted to superintendent during the boom, he was going places. Now he welds cages inside of race cars. ALL FACTS.
When it was booming the drywallers, the siding people, the roofers, the cleaning people, and the concrete laborers were all under investigation for legal status. Of course when it crashed nobody was around to keep up with it. FACT.
0
unsung
I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
...
Your friends had a choice to make... build houses faster at a lower, competative wage, become a general contractor... or find another line of work.
Yep you are right. Why when I suggested that people go back to school in an unemployment thread (of which I pointed out careers in nuclear that pay $100k+) I was told it wasn't really that possible because there were mortgages to pay, kids to feed, etc.? That I was the one being unreasonable?
Oh, next week my department will be placing a "help wanted" ad on the website for positions. There will be ten hires, starting at $65k and after a couple of years could easily be $100k with OT. I'm guessing not many, if any, took those classes that I said would help to get these jobs.
hanging sheetrock, laying tile, even painting... those tasks are almost NEVER done by immigrants, at least in Arizona (where a huge % of the population is illegal). Some of my good friends out there own a residential renovation/building business and they said that illegals don't get involved in that stuff. Landscaping maybe... and some mindless work like packing boxes... but I just don't buy that illegals are constructing homes.
If the best thing you can do is hang sheetrock then you've failed as a human being. I hate to sound insensitive but this is a COMPETITIVE world we live in. It's your g'damn DUTY to be skilled at something to provide for yourself and your family. You can argue against that but if you do you're arguing against capitalism...
i've never lived in arizona but in southern california (which has a significant illegal immigrant population as well) many of the jobs you've described (hanging sheetrock, laying tile, painting, landscaping, and constructing homes, etc) have a considerable illegal immigrant workforce. in general
i think your statements are ridiculously ignorant. defining yourself by your occupation is not a HUMAN idea, it is a CAPITALIST/WESTERN CULTURE idea. a man who's only capable of hanging sheetrock is not a failure as a human being, maybe he's a failed capitalist, but NOT a failed human being. you may find your self-worth in the job you have or the money you make, but that doesn't mean all humankind places its value in a job or bank account. honestly, that seems like a pretty sad life, in my opinion.
ps, what's wrong with arguing against capitalism?!
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hanging sheetrock, laying tile, even painting... those tasks are almost NEVER done by immigrants, at least in Arizona (where a huge % of the population is illegal). Some of my good friends out there own a residential renovation/building business and they said that illegals don't get involved in that stuff. Landscaping maybe... and some mindless work like packing boxes... but I just don't buy that illegals are constructing homes.
If the best thing you can do is hang sheetrock then you've failed as a human being. I hate to sound insensitive but this is a COMPETITIVE world we live in. It's your g'damn DUTY to be skilled at something to provide for yourself and your family. You can argue against that but if you do you're arguing against capitalism...
i think your statements are ridiculously ignorant. defining yourself by your occupation is not a HUMAN idea, it is a CAPITALIST/WESTERN CULTURE idea. a man who's only capable of hanging sheetrock is not a failure as a human being, maybe he's a failed capitalist, but NOT a failed human being. you may find your self-worth in the job you have or the money you make, but that doesn't mean all humankind places its value in a job or bank account. honestly, that seems like a pretty sad life, in my opinion.
ps, what's wrong with arguing against capitalism?!
I thought I made it abundantly clear that I'm advocating this lifestyle... but that's the way capitalism works. Think of money as tickets. You need tickets to go on the ride. Without tickets you can't experience much in this world beyond a subsistence lifestyle. Sure you can have a good family, friends, be healthy, and so forth (which is great for a lot of people) but for Christ's sake, we live in a world where you can hop on a plane tomorrow and go see Macchu Picchu, or jump from a plane from 10,000 feet, or sail across an ocean, or drive a fucking Ferrari, or even go into outer fucking space IF YOU HAVE ENOUGH TICKETS to play the game, enjoy the rides.
If you're in a job where you can't even beat out an illegal immigrant for tickets... you have absolutely failed in the 21st century capitalistic world if you want to enjoy the ride of life. If you're fine not going on the ride then fine... I'm not here to judge anyone.
I can't understand why anyone would disagree with this... :? And again, I'm not arguing that this is the "right" way just that it's the way it is. In this system people are standing on each other's shoulders and trying to get to the top of this fucking pyramid scheme and the majority of people are left trampled and bloodied at a young age.
Illegal immigrants are trying to join in but because of some imaginary boundary we're telling them they can't... and they sure as hell don't stand a chance in Mexico unless they want to get involved in drugs. I say open the borders, let the banks and states go bankrupt, stop all military expenditures, end the war on drugs, end usury tariffs quotas and even landlordism... let the free market reign.
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
Illegal immigrants are trying to join in but because of some imaginary boundary we're telling them they can't... and they sure as hell don't stand a chance in Mexico unless they want to get involved in drugs. I say open the borders, let the banks and states go bankrupt, stop all military expenditures, end the war on drugs, end usury tariffs quotas and even landlordism... let the free market reign.
You want to cede the US to Mexico?
Be Excellent To Each Other
Party On, Dudes!
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unsung
I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
If the borders were opened all forms of welfare need to end. We would cease to exist if not.
If the borders were opened all forms of welfare need to end. We would cease to exist if not.
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Is that so we can have more people living in the streets? Wouldn't that be bad for tourism?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
0
unsung
I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
So do you expect the people that do have jobs support the flood of unskilled laborers that is bound to enter? Where are the jobs for them when we have 10% unemployment already?
So do you expect the people that do have jobs support the flood of unskilled laborers that is bound to enter? Where are the jobs for them when we have 10% unemployment already?
...
Q: Where are the jobs for them when we have 10% unemployment already?
A: Gone. They went to China and they ain't never coming back (unless we accept similar pay rates to compete with Chinese labor).
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I just asked you if we got rid of Welfare.... what would we do with the people on Welfare? Kill them? Let them starve? What? What do you want to do with them?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
If you're in a job where you can't even beat out an illegal immigrant for tickets... you have absolutely failed in the 21st century capitalistic world if you want to enjoy the ride of life. If you're fine not going on the ride then fine... I'm not here to judge anyone.
telling me I failed because I don't have enough tickets to catch a ride to the moon sounds like judgment to me. sounds like a spoiled brat talking, to be honest with you (not saying you are, I just picture some dumb-ass socialite saying something like this).
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
So do you expect the people that do have jobs support the flood of unskilled laborers that is bound to enter? Where are the jobs for them when we have 10% unemployment already?
...
Q: Where are the jobs for them when we have 10% unemployment already?
A: Gone. They went to China and they ain't never coming back (unless we accept similar pay rates to compete with Chinese labor).
...
I just asked you if we got rid of Welfare.... what would we do with the people on Welfare? Kill them? Let them starve? What? What do you want to do with them?
Your right... People taking responsibility for their own life is an absurd expectation...
What do you want to do with them you ask, how about a little tough love and let them take responsibility for their actions. Why do you think its acceptable for welfare families to continue to have children that they can not take care of, not even buy them basic school supplies???
So do you expect the people that do have jobs support the flood of unskilled laborers that is bound to enter? Where are the jobs for them when we have 10% unemployment already?
...
Q: Where are the jobs for them when we have 10% unemployment already?
A: Gone. They went to China and they ain't never coming back (unless we accept similar pay rates to compete with Chinese labor).
...
I just asked you if we got rid of Welfare.... what would we do with the people on Welfare? Kill them? Let them starve? What? What do you want to do with them?
Your right... People taking responsibility for their own life is an absurd expectation...
What do you want to do with them you ask, how about a little tough love and let them take responsibility for their actions. Why do you think its acceptable for welfare families to continue to have children that they can not take care of, not even buy them basic school supplies???
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Sure you can have a good family, friends, be healthy, and so forth (which is great for a lot of people) but for Christ's sake, we live in a world where you can hop on a plane tomorrow and go see Macchu Picchu, or jump from a plane from 10,000 feet, or sail across an ocean, or drive a fucking Ferrari, or even go into outer fucking space IF YOU HAVE ENOUGH TICKETS to play the game, enjoy the rides.
Highlighted in red - most important 'things' one can have. What use are your 'tickets' if you don't have the health to use them? What use are your tickets if you don't have anyone to share your thoughts/experiences with? I will take good family, friends and health ANYTIME over driving a Ferrari or anything else like that. One needs to get their priorities right. Your means of getting these tickets can crumble at any time and, if your main pursuit in life was trying to get tickets, you are then left with nothing. Quite sad and pathetic. Of course one wants to be able to enjoy the material things that are on offer but going for everything material, leaving the rest behind is a very shallow way to live. This is not capitalism.
If the borders were opened all forms of welfare need to end. We would cease to exist if not.
Nah - people who didn't like things in the US could go somewhere else instead of whining and complaining about people different from themselves taking money from our government.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
0
unsung
I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
I know that our current government thinks money grows on trees but where do you think the government gets the money?
If you're in a job where you can't even beat out an illegal immigrant for tickets... you have absolutely failed in the 21st century capitalistic world if you want to enjoy the ride of life. If you're fine not going on the ride then fine... I'm not here to judge anyone.
telling me I failed because I don't have enough tickets to catch a ride to the moon sounds like judgment to me. sounds like a spoiled brat talking, to be honest with you (not saying you are, I just picture some dumb-ass socialite saying something like this).
I grew up on a farm, paid my own way through college and grad school, and now I'm a CPA and hope to be a farmer again within 10 or 15 years. I grew up on food stamps and WalMart clothes.
I don't own anything of value except my house and my car. Even my furniture and clothes are pretty much worthless. But you know what??? I really fucking enjoy taking two weeks to follow Pearl Jam or Furthur, or going to Jamaica, or spending a week skiing in Vermont. I could choose to not increase my worth to society so that I'm as valuable as an illegal immigrant who can't even speak the fucking language, and then not have any opportunity to do these things. But, that seems like a lazy and stupid way to go about life.
I don't really know why I'm defending myself to a bunch of contrarians who can't seem to understand a very simple point. Money ain't everything but SOMETIMES it is really fucking nice to have. Or do none of you go to see Pearl Jam shows? Or do anything that requires leaving your city and enjoying life? For Christ's fucking sake... You can't do these things making minimum wage because you're in the same job market as an illegal immigrant.
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
So do you expect the people that do have jobs support the flood of unskilled laborers that is bound to enter? Where are the jobs for them when we have 10% unemployment already?
Capitalism doesn't work for two reasons: 1) there is a tendency for wealth to accumulate at the top without measures to distribute wealth 2) a free market is necessary for economic equilibrium but it is a pipe dream.
You can't have free trade with immobile labor. Adam Smith made it very clear that the free trade capitalist society cannot reach equilibrium without labor mobility (as well as other Protectionist measures such as tariffs, quotas [and if we're being honest here; usury, taxes, landlordism, and the State]). Labor immobility in this case is a Protectionist measure for the citizens of a country... not for business.
Another free market trait is the ability for labor to organize. Labor Movements (which Adam Smith also advocated) are a fundamental responsibility of laborers if they (we) are worried about losing our job to less effective, efficent, or unproductive workers. Of course, if you hold absolutely ZERO value to your employer, why wouldn't he replace you with another person who will do the same job for less money?
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
Comments
I'll ask my friends, that used to build houses for a decent wage, and see how they feel about that statement.
You would make a great politician. First you agree with this
Then you want to get all "Kum Ba Yah". on us and say how you see them as "people".
Or is it only Americans that hold those jobs you see as loosers?
Go ahead. They don't exist dude, and you know it. Illegal immigrants can't get a job building a house, that is silly. They work in fields, pack boxes, absolutely MINDLESS stuff. I've NEVER heard of first hand experience of someone losing a job to an illegal immigrant, and I lived in Arizona for three years. I don't know why people have this attitude of "I won't be arsed to learn a trade or become VALUABLE in my occupation!!!" Just a little bit of work towards a talent, a trade, an education, whatever... and you don't have to worry about "der takin err joooobz!"
Hmmmm... I guess you need a clue, huh?
In both instances... the illegals ARE humans. Humans willing to do a job without all of the entitlements American workers expect (minimum wage, safe workplace, overtime pay, etc...). The point being made... which I agree with... is that if you are an American... you have to be a total loser to aspire to be a janitor or an onion picker. To WANT some of the jobs that the illegal immigrants are taking... for the wages we are paying them... and the hours we are working them... well, what do you call that American? Do you want your kids to grow up and be profesional bus boys?
...
I hope that cleared it up for you. I understand... politicking is hard... but, stick with it. I'm hoping you'll eventually get a grasp on it.
Hail, Hail!!!
I hate to agree with unsung on anything regarding the immigration issue, but he is right about the construction business. Illegals are used in home construction for everything from drywall to painting to roofing. I don't know how widespread it is, but it does happen.
But that goes to one of cosmos points... do you throw the guy who owns a little home construction business in jail because he used a couple day laborers to hang sheetrock? I just don't see how that is productive for anyone involved.
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
Your friends had a choice to make... build houses faster at a lower, competative wage, become a general contractor... or find another line of work. Construction work is just like any other work... susceptible to market decisions (i.e. outsourcing). The difference being, the houses have to be built here, the workers are found elsewhere. To make those houses affordable to you and me... the costs have to remain low. How do you do that? Make the materials cheaper and reduce labor costs.
Your construction worker friends should blame Capitalism and market trends.
Is it a shitty deal for your friends? Yeah... no one wants to see any of us lose our jobs. But, think about those jobs... how hard is it to show someone how to hang drywall or laying tile? Your friends could learn a trade that requires state licensing, such as electrician... but, trying to continue to do work that someone else is willing to do for less is pretty much setting yourself up to compete with them or find something else.
Hail, Hail!!!
And another thing... not all of the construction workers are here illegally. Many of them are American citizens, typically with no education and are willing to work under the table to avoid income taxes. If general contractors want to keep more money for themselves... they hire the person who is willing to do the work for the least amount of pay. A bonus... if an illegal falls of the roof and sprains his ankle... no problem. Just cut him loose and get someone else until he's healed up.
You won't find illegal immigrants in the Iron Workers Union... but, you will find them working on the construction sites cleaning up shit, sweeping, etc... so you don't have a highly paid Union man pushing a broom. He is up 16 stories welding iron.
Hail, Hail!!!
If the best thing you can do is hang sheetrock then you've failed as a human being. I hate to sound insensitive but this is a COMPETITIVE world we live in. It's your g'damn DUTY to be skilled at something to provide for yourself and your family. You can argue against that but if you do you're arguing against capitalism...
Thats an awfully close-minded though process. I have a 37 year old friend who has a masters degree in computer science, and he is a busboy. He is the happiest person I know. Of course this is an extreme case, but to say that someone who hangs sheetrock or is a busboy has failed as a human being is narrow.
Also, I live in South Fla where there is a huge population of Guatemalans that are here illegally. They do work on houses. I guess it just depends where you are though because the majority work in fields and on landscaping, but some do work on houses.
I'm not saying that I agree with this... THAT'S JUST THE WAY IT IS.
edit: my previous language including "loser of epic proportions" and "failure" wasn't called for. But yeah, if you're in the same job market as an illegal immigrant, you're doing something really, really, reallllly wrong.
ahh, gotcha.
i've never lived in arizona but in southern california (which has a significant illegal immigrant population as well) many of the jobs you've described (hanging sheetrock, laying tile, painting, landscaping, and constructing homes, etc) have a considerable illegal immigrant workforce. in general
i think your statements are ridiculously ignorant. defining yourself by your occupation is not a HUMAN idea, it is a CAPITALIST/WESTERN CULTURE idea. a man who's only capable of hanging sheetrock is not a failure as a human being, maybe he's a failed capitalist, but NOT a failed human being. you may find your self-worth in the job you have or the money you make, but that doesn't mean all humankind places its value in a job or bank account. honestly, that seems like a pretty sad life, in my opinion.
ps, what's wrong with arguing against capitalism?!
That's some weird logic you got going on!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Here in Illinois when the housing market was booming in 2000-2005 I was a union IBEW electrical foreman for a local contractor that had $50M in sales. EVERY drywall installer was hispanic and they were always different every two weeks or so. I asked the foreman and he said the company had to keep firing them every payday because they could not verify citizenship or legal immigrant status. FACT.
I had a guy on my own crew who was a legal immigrant, I had to give him a day off each year to go to Chicago to update his paperwork. FACT.
With the fall of the market my carpenter friends and electrician friends have had to move to other careers, as I did myself. The carpenters had it tougher because the electricians had a tighter grip on their market. The carpenters had the choices of either starve, find another career, or switch to non-union to compete with illegals for what few homes were being built. The carpentry company that I worked alongside employed 1000 carpenters in the Chicago area, now there are less than a dozen. The carpenter foreman that was on the job with me was promoted to superintendent during the boom, he was going places. Now he welds cages inside of race cars. ALL FACTS.
When it was booming the drywallers, the siding people, the roofers, the cleaning people, and the concrete laborers were all under investigation for legal status. Of course when it crashed nobody was around to keep up with it. FACT.
Yep you are right. Why when I suggested that people go back to school in an unemployment thread (of which I pointed out careers in nuclear that pay $100k+) I was told it wasn't really that possible because there were mortgages to pay, kids to feed, etc.? That I was the one being unreasonable?
Oh, next week my department will be placing a "help wanted" ad on the website for positions. There will be ten hires, starting at $65k and after a couple of years could easily be $100k with OT. I'm guessing not many, if any, took those classes that I said would help to get these jobs.
the truth
RED ROCKS 6-19-95
AUGUSTA 9-26-96
MANSFIELD 9-15-98
BOSTON 9-29-04
BOSTON 5-25-06
MANSFIELD 6-30-08
EV SOLO BOSTON 8-01-08
BOSTON 5-17-10
EV SOLO BOSTON 6-16-11
PJ20 9-3-11
PJ20 9-4-11
WRIGLEY 7-19-13
WORCESTER 10-15-13
WORCESTER 10-16-13
HARTFORD 10-25-13
I thought I made it abundantly clear that I'm advocating this lifestyle... but that's the way capitalism works. Think of money as tickets. You need tickets to go on the ride. Without tickets you can't experience much in this world beyond a subsistence lifestyle. Sure you can have a good family, friends, be healthy, and so forth (which is great for a lot of people) but for Christ's sake, we live in a world where you can hop on a plane tomorrow and go see Macchu Picchu, or jump from a plane from 10,000 feet, or sail across an ocean, or drive a fucking Ferrari, or even go into outer fucking space IF YOU HAVE ENOUGH TICKETS to play the game, enjoy the rides.
If you're in a job where you can't even beat out an illegal immigrant for tickets... you have absolutely failed in the 21st century capitalistic world if you want to enjoy the ride of life. If you're fine not going on the ride then fine... I'm not here to judge anyone.
I can't understand why anyone would disagree with this... :? And again, I'm not arguing that this is the "right" way just that it's the way it is. In this system people are standing on each other's shoulders and trying to get to the top of this fucking pyramid scheme and the majority of people are left trampled and bloodied at a young age.
Illegal immigrants are trying to join in but because of some imaginary boundary we're telling them they can't... and they sure as hell don't stand a chance in Mexico unless they want to get involved in drugs. I say open the borders, let the banks and states go bankrupt, stop all military expenditures, end the war on drugs, end usury tariffs quotas and even landlordism... let the free market reign.
Is that so we can have more people living in the streets? Wouldn't that be bad for tourism?
Hail, Hail!!!
Q: Where are the jobs for them when we have 10% unemployment already?
A: Gone. They went to China and they ain't never coming back (unless we accept similar pay rates to compete with Chinese labor).
...
I just asked you if we got rid of Welfare.... what would we do with the people on Welfare? Kill them? Let them starve? What? What do you want to do with them?
Hail, Hail!!!
telling me I failed because I don't have enough tickets to catch a ride to the moon sounds like judgment to me. sounds like a spoiled brat talking, to be honest with you (not saying you are, I just picture some dumb-ass socialite saying something like this).
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
What do you want to do with them you ask, how about a little tough love and let them take responsibility for their actions. Why do you think its acceptable for welfare families to continue to have children that they can not take care of, not even buy them basic school supplies???
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Highlighted in red - most important 'things' one can have. What use are your 'tickets' if you don't have the health to use them? What use are your tickets if you don't have anyone to share your thoughts/experiences with? I will take good family, friends and health ANYTIME over driving a Ferrari or anything else like that. One needs to get their priorities right. Your means of getting these tickets can crumble at any time and, if your main pursuit in life was trying to get tickets, you are then left with nothing. Quite sad and pathetic. Of course one wants to be able to enjoy the material things that are on offer but going for everything material, leaving the rest behind is a very shallow way to live. This is not capitalism.
Nah - people who didn't like things in the US could go somewhere else instead of whining and complaining about people different from themselves taking money from our government.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I grew up on a farm, paid my own way through college and grad school, and now I'm a CPA and hope to be a farmer again within 10 or 15 years. I grew up on food stamps and WalMart clothes.
I don't own anything of value except my house and my car. Even my furniture and clothes are pretty much worthless. But you know what??? I really fucking enjoy taking two weeks to follow Pearl Jam or Furthur, or going to Jamaica, or spending a week skiing in Vermont. I could choose to not increase my worth to society so that I'm as valuable as an illegal immigrant who can't even speak the fucking language, and then not have any opportunity to do these things. But, that seems like a lazy and stupid way to go about life.
I don't really know why I'm defending myself to a bunch of contrarians who can't seem to understand a very simple point. Money ain't everything but SOMETIMES it is really fucking nice to have. Or do none of you go to see Pearl Jam shows? Or do anything that requires leaving your city and enjoying life? For Christ's fucking sake... You can't do these things making minimum wage because you're in the same job market as an illegal immigrant.
Capitalism doesn't work for two reasons: 1) there is a tendency for wealth to accumulate at the top without measures to distribute wealth 2) a free market is necessary for economic equilibrium but it is a pipe dream.
You can't have free trade with immobile labor. Adam Smith made it very clear that the free trade capitalist society cannot reach equilibrium without labor mobility (as well as other Protectionist measures such as tariffs, quotas [and if we're being honest here; usury, taxes, landlordism, and the State]). Labor immobility in this case is a Protectionist measure for the citizens of a country... not for business.
Another free market trait is the ability for labor to organize. Labor Movements (which Adam Smith also advocated) are a fundamental responsibility of laborers if they (we) are worried about losing our job to less effective, efficent, or unproductive workers. Of course, if you hold absolutely ZERO value to your employer, why wouldn't he replace you with another person who will do the same job for less money?