Does the Arizona killer change your mind...

wolfamongwolves

pjhawks wrote:

simple, it rids the earth of an evil person. each evil person no longer of this earth gets us closer to your utopian society of no violence and no wars.

Depends on how you (choose to) look at it. I could say it rids the world of a person with a severe mental illness. Would you be as comfortable with that? I doubt it, and hope not. But that is pretty much what seems to be the reality here.

Can't speak for know1, but in my utopia, governments don't kill people who kill people in order to show them that killing people is wrong.

DL136722

Agree to disagree - that's the end of the story. We all have our opinions - you have yours and I have mine and everyone else has there's. Those people who got murderd had there's and it got taken away - we should consider ourselves lucky.[/quote]

It could be the end of the story, but I'm curious as to your answer of what good purpose revenge killing serves. Does it make the victims families feel better? (If so, then shame on them)
Does it save the government money? (I know it doesn't)
Does it protect the public? (If he's locked away securely, the public is in little danger)

I'd really like to know.[/quote]

simple, it rids the earth of an evil person. each evil person no longer of this earth gets us closer to your utopian society of no violence and no wars.[/quote]

Couldn't agree more!

wolfamongwolves

DL136722 wrote:

You take a life, then theirs should be taken as well - good day!

I'll ask you again... If it is so wrong for them to take a life, as we all agree; then how can it be right for you to take their life?

pjhawks

wolfamongwolves wrote:

DL136722 wrote:

You take a life, then theirs should be taken as well - good day!

I'll ask you again... If it is so wrong for them to take a life (and it is); then how can it be right for you to take theirs?

there has to be a punishment for the crime doesn't there? it woud be wrong for me to lock a person in a closet and leave them there for 30 years as well which is what we are effectively doing by putting him in prison.

wolfamongwolves

pjhawks wrote:

wolfamongwolves wrote:

DL136722 wrote:

You take a life, then theirs should be taken as well - good day!

I'll ask you again... If it is so wrong for them to take a life (and it is); then how can it be right for you to take theirs?

there has to be a punishment for the crime doesn't there? it woud be wrong for me to lock a person in a closet and leave them there for 30 years as well which is what we are effectively doing by putting him in prison.

I'm not saying there doesn't have to be punishment for the crime. What I'm saying that if the punishment is the same as the crime, then it's also a crime. If killing someone is wrong for one, it's wrong for all. Otherwise we're left with double standards, hypocrisy and no possiblilty of anything that can meaningfully be called justice.

And no, prison is not the same as locking someone in a closet, as many of the people on your side of the argument (perhaps yourself too, I can't recall) have pointed out.

DL136722

DL136722 wrote:

You take a life, then theirs should be taken as well - good day!

I'll ask you again... If it is so wrong for them to take a life (and it is); then how can it be right for you to take theirs?[/quote]

there has to be a punishment for the crime doesn't there? it woud be wrong for me to lock a person in a closet and leave them there for 30 years as well which is what we are effectively doing by putting him in prison.[/quote]
.[/quote]And no, prison is not the same as locking someone in a closet, as many of the people on your side of the argument (perhaps yourself too, I can't recall) have pointed out


Dude - if you're going to use my statement to try to make a point - at least do me a solid and use my WHOLE statement and not just a fragment of it. Thanks

Pepe Silvia

i find it odd that so many are so up in arms about the deaths of 6 people while silent to all the deaths created by these last two presidents.....sure, what happened is a tragic thing but there's always stories about the military or drones killing more innocent people than this in a single incident and it's shrugged off.

and this is more reflective of our society than each individual here, it's just odd that the nation is so mad about this and not that we are killing so many more than that right now yet most still pledge their unwavering support for the people in charge who are keeping these wars, deaths and crimes going....where is all the outrage then? why do most have no problems coming up with excuses and rationalizations about those deaths?

know1

Pepe Silvia wrote:

i find it odd that so many are so up in arms about the deaths of 6 people while silent to all the deaths created by these last two presidents.....sure, what happened is a tragic thing but there's always stories about the military or drones killing more innocent people than this in a single incident and it's shrugged off.

and this is more reflective of our society than each individual here, it's just odd that the nation is so mad about this and not that we are killing so many more than that right now yet most still pledge their unwavering support for the people in charge who are keeping these wars, deaths and crimes going....where is all the outrage then? why do most have no problems coming up with excuses and rationalizations about those deaths?

Very good point!

wolfamongwolves

DL136722 wrote:

Dude - if you're going to use my statement to try to make a point - at least do me a solid and use my WHOLE statement and not just a fragment of it. Thanks

No problem, though I find it makes the salient points more obvious when they are highlighted, and since the rest of your post doesn't make any contextual difference to the the question I was asking, including the whole thing seemed a bit superfluous.

Nevertheless, here you go. (By the way, you seem to have chopped out more than half of my post in your quote )

wolfamongwolves wrote:

DL136722 wrote:

I don't agree with you just accept that and stop badgering me with your beliefs. I'm trying to be civil here. With that said - I had a cousin who was murdered and the guy is still alive in jail eating 3 meals a day that we pay for. Who's to say 30 years from now they give the guy parole for good behavior or something or he escapes. You know what - then shame on me - he killed a family member of mine and I'd like to see him dead as well. It's costing me money to keep this guy alive atop of all of it as opposed to that same money helping out hungry unemployed families. Like I said you have your opinion and I have mine - so let it go! Shame on me for wanting cold blooded murders to have done to them what they have done to others. You take a life, then theirs should be taken as well - good day!

I'll ask you again... If it is so wrong for them to take a life (and it is); then how can it be right for you to take theirs?

pjhawks wrote:

there has to be a punishment for the crime doesn't there? it woud be wrong for me to lock a person in a closet and leave them there for 30 years as well which is what we are effectively doing by putting him in prison.

wolfamongwolves wrote:

I'm not saying there doesn't have to be punishment for the crime. What I'm saying that if the punishment is the same as the crime, then it's also a crime. If killing someone is wrong for one, it's wrong for all. Otherwise we're left with double standards, hypocrisy and no possiblilty of anything that can meaningfully be called justice.

And no, prison is not the same as locking someone in a closet, as many of the people on your side of the argument (perhaps yourself too, I can't recall) have pointed out

Now, how about answering the question?

LikeAnOcean

Godfather. wrote:

in his situation they should have walked his ass out into the desert and capped his ass already, that would save a lot of time and trouble and money.

Godfather.

Revenge is a path to the dark side. :twisted:


I'm mixed on the death penalty. I lean towards being against it, but can understand why some are for it. I've been for it most of my life, but the principal that sways me is who's right is it to kill.. I also think killing him would be giving him the easy way out.

LikeAnOcean

Pepe Silvia wrote:

i find it odd that so many are so up in arms about the deaths of 6 people while silent to all the deaths created by these last two presidents.....sure, what happened is a tragic thing but there's always stories about the military or drones killing more innocent people than this in a single incident and it's shrugged off.

and this is more reflective of our society than each individual here, it's just odd that the nation is so mad about this and not that we are killing so many more than that right now yet most still pledge their unwavering support for the people in charge who are keeping these wars, deaths and crimes going....where is all the outrage then? why do most have no problems coming up with excuses and rationalizations about those deaths?

My problem with this thought is it makes the president damned if he does or damned if he doesn't.. Walking up to someone, putting a gun to their head and pulling the trigger is different than giving orders that may cause or may prevent deaths. George Bush is an idiot and I don't agree with 99% of what he says, but he's not a cold blooded killer.. Now Dick Cheney on the other hand..


Lets say you are elected president and we start getting attacked by another country. Do you do nothing because war would make you a murderer?.. Now with Bush, the reasons were much different, but at some level, they guy thought he was doing the right thing and if he could have his way cleanly without taking any lives, I'm sure he would have. It's our opionions that make him a murderer. Give him a gun, put him in the room with his "enemy" and I garuntee you he would not pull the trigger. 99% of us don't have the murdering gene in us. Indirect killing, probably.

If you do believe that the president is a cold blooded killer, then you do realize half of this country who agrees with his orders are cold blooded killers as well.

Godfather.

LikeAnOcean wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

in his situation they should have walked his ass out into the desert and capped his ass already, that would save a lot of time and trouble and money.

Godfather.

Revenge is a path to the dark side. :twisted:


I'm mixed on the death penalty. I lean towards being against it, but can understand why some are for it. I've been for it most of my life, but the principal that sways me is who's right is it to kill.. I also think killing him would be giving him the easy way out.

well then he could be put to death very slowly,like over the coarse of ....sayyyyy a week ? no food no water
just a few hungry rats for company.
yeah I know that's sick but I'm just trying to avoid the ez way out
that's a joke, I'm kidding !

Godfather.

stargirl69

No it doesn't.

pjhawks

Pepe Silvia wrote:

i find it odd that so many are so up in arms about the deaths of 6 people while silent to all the deaths created by these last two presidents.....sure, what happened is a tragic thing but there's always stories about the military or drones killing more innocent people than this in a single incident and it's shrugged off.

and this is more reflective of our society than each individual here, it's just odd that the nation is so mad about this and not that we are killing so many more than that right now yet most still pledge their unwavering support for the people in charge who are keeping these wars, deaths and crimes going....where is all the outrage then? why do most have no problems coming up with excuses and rationalizations about those deaths?

"as popular war advances, peace is closer"

Jason P

Pepe Silvia wrote:

i find it odd that so many are so up in arms about the deaths of 6 people while silent to all the deaths created by these last two presidents.....sure, what happened is a tragic thing but there's always stories about the military or drones killing more innocent people than this in a single incident and it's shrugged off.

and this is more reflective of our society than each individual here, it's just odd that the nation is so mad about this and not that we are killing so many more than that right now yet most still pledge their unwavering support for the people in charge who are keeping these wars, deaths and crimes going....where is all the outrage then? why do most have no problems coming up with excuses and rationalizations about those deaths?

Part of it has to do with proximity. If I'm watching the morning news during breakfast and hear a report of 250 people drowning because a ferry capsized in Thailand, I'll think "Man, that's horrible", pause, and then continue eating my cereal and probably forgetting about it for the rest of my life. But if the same thing happens in New York, I'm sure I would be tracking every detail of the story.

I call it the "holy shit, that could happen to me!" principle.

Same thing with the shooting, that could happen anywhere in America. If only there was a way to collect data and information on the shooter ... perhaps create a profile of his traits that could be used and combined with other lone shooters in the past to help identify patterns. But I guess that would be racist.

And another part of the story is that the troops are going after an enemy that would like nothing more then to see every blasphemous American (and German, Brit, Danish, etc) die a slow and painful death. The media doesn't report on civilian deaths very often. And some people don't feel sorry for collateral damage as long as it is limited and the majority of attacks kill the enemy.

catefrances

DL136722 wrote:

It doesn't change my mind and I'm for the death penalty. Put it this way, what if this guy killed your daughter or son? Put it on a personal level - it's easy to say no death penalty from distance put if you ask the family that lost the 9yr. that got killed it would be interesting to hear the responses then....

i always put it that way. and this is always the argument that gets thrown at those of us who dont support the death penalty under any circumstance. and for me it doesnt change. why do you think it would? sure id be ropeable if my child was murdered.. sure id feel murderously vengeful.. and that would be the absolute grief talking. when i calmed myself enough to think, id know the death of my childs murderer wouldnt make me feel better and it wouldnt bring my child back.

Godfather.

catefrances wrote:

DL136722 wrote:

It doesn't change my mind and I'm for the death penalty. Put it this way, what if this guy killed your daughter or son? Put it on a personal level - it's easy to say no death penalty from distance put if you ask the family that lost the 9yr. that got killed it would be interesting to hear the responses then....

i always put it that way. and this is always the argument that gets thrown at those of us who dont support the death penalty under any circumstance. and for me it doesnt change. why do you think it would? sure id be ropeable if my child was murdered.. sure id feel murderously vengeful.. and that would be the absolute grief talking. when i calmed myself enough to think, id know the death of my childs murderer wouldnt make me feel better and it wouldnt bring my child back.

you just don't know how you'd react unless it did happen to you I sure Cate, in any case a sad and tragic thing to happen to a family.

Godfather.

catefrances

Godfather. wrote:

catefrances wrote:

DL136722 wrote:

It doesn't change my mind and I'm for the death penalty. Put it this way, what if this guy killed your daughter or son? Put it on a personal level - it's easy to say no death penalty from distance put if you ask the family that lost the 9yr. that got killed it would be interesting to hear the responses then....

i always put it that way. and this is always the argument that gets thrown at those of us who dont support the death penalty under any circumstance. and for me it doesnt change. why do you think it would? sure id be ropeable if my child was murdered.. sure id feel murderously vengeful.. and that would be the absolute grief talking. when i calmed myself enough to think, id know the death of my childs murderer wouldnt make me feel better and it wouldnt bring my child back.

you just don't know how you'd react unless it did happen to you I sure Cate, in any case a sad and tragic thing to happen to a family.

Godfather.

i do know godfather. im telling you how id react. i see it as similair to those that say to me theres no atheists in a foxhole. and i can tell you without hesitation or doubt that if i was ever in a foxhole, there would absolutely be an atheist in it. dont try and second guess me when i know my own self.

LikeAnOcean

catefrances wrote:

DL136722 wrote:

It doesn't change my mind and I'm for the death penalty. Put it this way, what if this guy killed your daughter or son? Put it on a personal level - it's easy to say no death penalty from distance put if you ask the family that lost the 9yr. that got killed it would be interesting to hear the responses then....

i always put it that way. and this is always the argument that gets thrown at those of us who dont support the death penalty under any circumstance. and for me it doesnt change. why do you think it would? sure id be ropeable if my child was murdered.. sure id feel murderously vengeful.. and that would be the absolute grief talking. when i calmed myself enough to think, id know the death of my childs murderer wouldnt make me feel better and it wouldnt bring my child back.

If someone close to me was murdered, I would totally want the person responsible killed, if I couldn't do it myself. The death penalty just exposes human weakness. It's wrong, but I understand why we want it.

jg1988

Pepe Silvia wrote:

i find it odd that so many are so up in arms about the deaths of 6 people while silent to all the deaths created by these last two presidents.....sure, what happened is a tragic thing but there's always stories about the military or drones killing more innocent people than this in a single incident and it's shrugged off.

and this is more reflective of our society than each individual here, it's just odd that the nation is so mad about this and not that we are killing so many more than that right now yet most still pledge their unwavering support for the people in charge who are keeping these wars, deaths and crimes going....where is all the outrage then? why do most have no problems coming up with excuses and rationalizations about those deaths?

Thats easy, the post in the forum was only dealing with the AZ shooting. Also with war, which Obama chose to escalate last year in Afghanistan, there are certain evils that come with that decision (death of civilians with no real legal ramification.) Blame the media who fail the American people everyday.