9 year old girl shot yesterday...

MG79478

wolfamongwolves wrote:

MG79478 wrote:

wolfamongwolves wrote:

I don't see how it was tangential at all. It was asking you to place your position in a more realistic context. If you are going to talk about the need to protect yourself against your government, I think it's perfectly relevant that you consider what youare saying in the context of countries where that is far more a reailty than it is in the US. How is that nonsense?

And as your post in response made perfectly clear, it is you who are putting words in my mouth.

Sorry you're so pushed for time.

If you would have read everything and not made assumptions, you would have seen my point that:

Guns have many primary benefits. Having the government fear the people is a nice Secondary benefit of gun ownership.

See how talk of coups and armed rebellion are completely tangential?

Sorry, no, I don't. Because in the quote of yours to which I was referring, you said this:

"If the citizens are not armed, they are helpless. If they are armed, the could rise up, and the government must fear and respect them."

I was responding directly to what you said the purpose of a gun was in protecting oneself against the government. What I said was entirely relevant. You were responding to a direct question that was solely about protecting yourself against the government with a gun. In that context there was no primary or secondary. That was the one issue in the question you were responding to.

So then you did indeed not read every post, because you missed where I talked about it being a secondary benefit. Also note the word “could” that you did not highlight. Honestly, why else would the government fear the people for having guns?

So why shouldn’t a government fear the people? They work for us? Bad things (Obamacare) happen when the government doesn’t respect the power of the people. What good could possible come from a government not fearing the people?

Byrnzie

MG79478 wrote:

First it was by just looking at murder rate by gun

Isn't that what we're discussing here?

Byrnzie

MG79478 wrote:

Bad things (Obamacare) happen when the government doesn’t respect the power of the people.

Because healthcare only for those who can afford it is a good thing, right?

And it's not 'the people' trying to derail universal healthcare in the U.S. The medical industry, along with a handful of misinformed wackjobs, does not constitute 'the people'.

MG79478

Byrnzie wrote:

MG79478 wrote:

First it was by just looking at murder rate by gun

Isn't that what we're discussing here?

Not at all. You were the first person in this entire thread to bring up murder rate by gun. Which as i mentioned is such a worthless statistic.

Byrnzie wrote:

MG79478 wrote:

Bad things (Obamacare) happen when the government doesn’t respect the power of the people.

Because healthcare only for those who can afford it is a good thing, right?

Again, you have a narrow view of the situation. What made America great was that you could work hard and accomplish anything. Now the government hands you stuff for free (for votes), and people lose their movitation to earn things on their own. People spend their money on things they WANT, not things they NEED. If you have a flat screen TV, cable, A cell phone, etc, I shouldn't be paying for your healthcare. We have a culture crisis in this country. People are dependant on the government. People want to spend their money on luxuries, and receive free healthcare and foodstamps. There was healthcare when this country was formed, and our founding fathers did not deem it a right for everyone to have healthcare. It is not a right that everyone should recieve it. If you didn't have it, you might be more motivated to better your situation and get it. Who ever in this country gets turned away from an Emergency Room with or without insurance?

dunkman

MG79478 wrote:

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. " - Thomas Jefferson

same guy who owned several plantations and hundreds of slaves during his lifetime. He relied on slavery partially for his wealth, and did not oppose slavery as a politician... that guy? must have been a while back if he had slaves... perhaps he needed all his guns to keep his slaves in order eh?



"The appointment of a woman to office is an innovation for which the public is not prepared, nor am I." - Thomas Jefferson


seems like he was a bit of a sexist as well eh? all round nice bloke..


I could probably find you 2 nice quotes from Hitler if you want.... seeing as how you keep referring to your country being akin to 30s Germany.

wolfamongwolves

MG79478 wrote:

So then you did indeed not read every post, because you missed where I talked about it being a secondary benefit.

As I have said, I was responding to a specific point you made in response to a specific question. What I said remains relevant to theat specific point, and by quoting that specific point and only that, that should have been patently obvious. It is, after all, the reason for having an editable quote function on here. Now I'm not going to repeat myself any more, because you are continually throwing up this irrelevant smokescreen about whether or not I managed to encapsulate the substance of every post in my one (which was never my intention), rather than addressing the substance of what I said, which still remains valid. I cannot be any clearer than that.

MG79478 wrote:

Also note the word “could” that you did not highlight. Honestly, why else would the government fear the people for having guns?

I really don't get what you mean here.

MG79478 wrote:

So why shouldn’t a government fear the people? They work for us?

Which just begs the question of why guns are necessary for fear. Is the mindless threat of violence the best a civilised people can do?

But personally I'd rather a government that respects me rather than fears me. Constructive action, as opposed to destructive threats.

MG79478 wrote:

Bad things (Obamacare) happen when the government doesn’t respect the power of the people. What good could possible come from a government not fearing the people?

That is wildly specious reasoning, not to mention subjective and opinion-based, and so doesn't add anything to your point. In other words if it is my opinion that "Obamacare" is not a bad thing, then your point has no resonance with me, no meaning.

MG79478

dunkman wrote:

MG79478 wrote:

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. " - Thomas Jefferson

same guy who owned several plantations and hundreds of slaves during his lifetime. He relied on slavery partially for his wealth, and did not oppose slavery as a politician... that guy? must have been a while back if he had slaves... perhaps he needed all his guns to keep his slaves in order eh?



"The appointment of a woman to office is an innovation for which the public is not prepared, nor am I." - Thomas Jefferson


seems like he was a bit of a sexist as well eh? all round nice bloke..


I could probably find you 2 nice quotes from Hitler if you want.... seeing as how you keep referring to your country being akin to 30s Germany.

Nice try at smoke and mirrors, but you fail.

1) Some things change some things don’t. The role of women for example has changed over time. Government has not.

2) Jefferson was a politician, not a human rights advocate. I wouldn’t want to learn his view on something that was not his field of expertise.

3) Are you perfect? If you were a subject matter expert in say physics, but ran over your neighbors dog, does that mean you are wrong about physics?

MG79478

wolfamongwolves wrote:

Now I'm not going to repeat myself any more, because you are continually throwing up this irrelevant smokescreen about whether or not I managed to encapsulate the substance of every post in my one (which was never my intention), rather than addressing the substance of what I said, which still remains valid. I cannot be any clearer than that.

Yes, because why would you want to hear the entire side of someone's argument, and maybe learn something... when you can just pick part pieces and try to fit it to your agenda and ignore the pieces that don't? I see your point. How narrow minded of me to want to understand "the big picture".

Byrnzie

MG79478 wrote:

Again, you have a narrow view of the situation. What made America great was that you could work hard and accomplish anything. Now the government hands you stuff for free (for votes), and people lose their movitation to earn things on their own.

Except it's not free, becasue it's paid for by your taxes, just like the massive military budget which no one seems to have any issue with.

MG79478 wrote:

There was healthcare when this country was formed, and our founding fathers did not deem it a right for everyone to have healthcare. It is not a right that everyone should recieve it. If you didn't have it, you might be more motivated to better your situation and get it. Who ever in this country gets turned away from an Emergency Room with or without insurance?

I do find it ironic that a nation which is apparently singled out by God for special attention and blessings happens to also be a nation where it's considered patriotic to let your neighbour go to hell as a consequence of his financial situation.

Just why do you pay taxes in the U.S?

Moonpig

MG79478 wrote:

wolfamongwolves wrote:

Now I'm not going to repeat myself any more, because you are continually throwing up this irrelevant smokescreen about whether or not I managed to encapsulate the substance of every post in my one (which was never my intention), rather than addressing the substance of what I said, which still remains valid. I cannot be any clearer than that.

Yes, because why would you want to hear the entire side of someone's argument, and maybe learn something... when you can just pick part pieces and try to fit it to your agenda and ignore the pieces that don't? I see your point. How narrow minded of me to want to understand "the big picture".

Your point is pretty much - nothing wrong with the gun laws that are in place. Need em to revolt, when the time is right - keep them pesky politicians looking over their shoulders and fearful of me.

We need guns because if tougher laws come in for gun control, Nazism, just like in 1930s Germany, it's history people - I mean its all there in black and white, read a book and learn from history.

If you don't agree with me you love government, most likely because you are on welfare or are a commie. You should fear your government, and what they are up - history tells us that, Nazism, just like in 1930s Germany, it's history people - I mean its all there in black and white, read a book and learn from history.

If you don't live in America, then you wouldn't know. Politicians are to be kept in check, and if they feck about, then I need my gun - Jefferson (a politician) told me that

Am I missing anything??

PS - I don't blame you for your irrational phobias, I blame what you are subjected to every single day in your media.

MG79478

Byrnzie wrote:

Except it's not free, becasue it's paid for by your taxes, just like the massive military budget which no one seems to have any issue with.

BUT... everyone recieves the same benefit from the military. I pay more than most in taxes, and military protection is about all I get in return. Those that pay little to none take all the benefit.

Byrnzie wrote:

I do find it ironic that a nation which is apparently singled out by God for special attention and blessings happens to also be a nation where it's considered patriotic to let your neighbour go to hell as a consequence of his financial situation.

Than let us help them. Let the church help them. The government ruins everything it tries to run. The people can take care of each other better than forcing us to fund the government to do it. You act like we don't care, that if someone falls on hard times that they shouldn't get help. They are the minority in this country. Most of the people recieving government assistance are of sound mind, and abel bodied, they are just lazy. Everyone needs help from time to time, but that is not what this welfare state does. They buy your vote with handouts.

MG79478

Moonpig wrote:

Your point is pretty much - nothing wrong with the gun laws that are in place. Need em to revolt, when the time is right - keep them pesky politicians looking over their shoulders and fearful of me.

We need guns because if tougher laws come in for gun control, Nazism, just like in 1930s Germany, it's history people - I mean its all there in black and white, read a book and learn from history.

If you don't agree with me you love government, most likely because you are on welfare or are a commie. You should fear your government and what they are up - history tells us that, Nazism, just like in 1930s Germany, it's history people - I mean its all there in black and white, read a book and learn from history.

If you don't live in America then you wouldn't know. Politicians are to be kept in check, and if they feck about then I need my gun - Jefferson (a politician told me that)

Am I missing anything??

PS - I don't blame you for your irrational phobias, I blame what you are subjected to every single day in your media.

Let me sum up your points for you.

History is made up, and NEVER repeats. We should ignore history. All guns are bad. All government is good. Government is not to ever be feared because everyone in every country in all of history (not that history matters) were run by good people with good intentions. People do not kill people, guns kill people. All people on welfare just fell on hard times, and we should help them. If anyone disagrees with you, they are irrational. All is well, All is well, All is well.

dunkman

MG79478 wrote:

Nice try at smoke and mirrors, but you fail.

1) Some things change some things don’t. The role of women for example has changed over time. Government has not.

2) Jefferson was a politician, not a human rights advocate. I wouldn’t want to learn his view on something that was not his field of expertise.

3) Are you perfect? If you were a subject matter expert in say physics, but ran over your neighbors dog, does that mean you are wrong about physics?

1. I think the need for guns has changed.

2. the two go hand in hand...

3. why does running over a neighbours dog change the laws of physics?

MG79478

dunkman wrote:

MG79478 wrote:

Nice try at smoke and mirrors, but you fail.

1) Some things change some things don’t. The role of women for example has changed over time. Government has not.

2) Jefferson was a politician, not a human rights advocate. I wouldn’t want to learn his view on something that was not his field of expertise.

3) Are you perfect? If you were a subject matter expert in say physics, but ran over your neighbors dog, does that mean you are wrong about physics?

1. I think the need for guns has changed.

2. the two go hand in hand...

3. why does running over a neighbours dog change the laws of physics?

1) that's your opinion. I think you are wrong.
2) They couldn't be further apart. Politicians don't care about anyone but themselves.
3) Exactly! So what does making a mistake (by today's standards) have to do with being an expert in government? Nothing.

MG79478

Never argue with idiots, they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

That's enough, I'm convinced, you win, I have to work. I'm completely wrong, everyone else is completely right. So there is no need for any more posts, because I completely agree with you. I'm going to ignore my history lessons, my political science lessons, and common sense. I was wrong... All guns are bad, all government is good. We must remove all guns from the world, because they are the problem, not the people who use them. All Americans should all give up our constitutional right to bear arms. There is no need for them, all the bad people were in history, and that will never happen again.

A poor girl is dead and you have successfully used the tragedy to push your anti-gun agenda. God be with her family during these tough times.

End of thread

---

Blockhead

MG79478 wrote:

Let me sum up your points for you.

History is made up, and NEVER repeats. We should ignore history. All guns are bad. All government is good. Government is not to ever be feared because everyone in every country in all of history (not that history matters) were run by good people with good intentions. People do not kill people, guns kill people. All people on welfare just fell on hard times, and we should help them. If anyone disagrees with you, they are irrational. All is well, All is well, All is well.

MG, nothing you say is going to change their minds on this issues, you can point to every fact and stat but they will ignore it. They will continue to blame the object insead of the person, which pretty much sumes up their political idelogy. THey fail to realize that there are messed up people out there and they will commit crimes no matter what is against the law, As i pointed out in the other thread the US is about even with the UK in crime... we have more gun crime, well because we have more guns.

Moonpig

HeidiJam wrote:

MG79478 wrote:

Let me sum up your points for you.

History is made up, and NEVER repeats. We should ignore history. All guns are bad. All government is good. Government is not to ever be feared because everyone in every country in all of history (not that history matters) were run by good people with good intentions. People do not kill people, guns kill people. All people on welfare just fell on hard times, and we should help them. If anyone disagrees with you, they are irrational. All is well, All is well, All is well.

MG, nothing you say is going to change their minds on this issues, you can point to every fact and stat but they will ignore it. They will continue to blame the object insead of the person, which pretty much sumes up their political idelogy. THey fail to realize that there are messed up people out there and they will commit crimes no matter what is against the law, As i pointed out in the other thread the US is about even with the UK in crime... we have more gun crime, well because we have more guns.

Does someone else want to take this one - I've got to the stage where I'm going to start crying with the lack of common sense that has been shown the last few days.

dunkman

HeidiJam wrote:

As i pointed out in the other thread the US is about even with the UK in crime... we have more gun crime, well because we have more guns.

so you admit you have a gun crime problem... thanks

you also say the problem is with the person NOT the gun... well a person walking about shouting "BANG!" at people isnt going to kill many, so i would argue that the gun plays its part.

also, there is an undeniably high amount of gun fatalities in the US... way more than any other country... yet if guns are not the problem as you say and its the person then what the fuck is wrong with Americans? if you are born there are you 20 times more likely to have a screw loose and kill someone with a gun... cos thats what your beloved stats show... 20 times more deaths per capita than any other country...

is it something the government is putting into people's water that makes them kill?

Byrnzie

HeidiJam wrote:

...we have more gun crime, well because we have more guns.

You have more gun crime, because you have more guns available to any and every nutter who wishes to buy one and use it. Hence the frequency of massacres in your country, which you brush under the carpet by blaming them on an individuals mental health, ignoring the fact that massacres of half a dozen or more people can generally not be committed with anything other than guns.

g under p

dunkman wrote:

HeidiJam wrote:

As i pointed out in the other thread the US is about even with the UK in crime... we have more gun crime, well because we have more guns.

so you admit you have a gun crime problem... thanks

you also say the problem is with the person NOT the gun... well a person walking about shouting "BANG!" at people isnt going to kill many, so i would argue that the gun plays its part.

also, there is an undeniably high amount of gun fatalities in the US... way more than any other country... yet if guns are not the problem as you say and its the person then what the fuck is wrong with Americans? if you are born there are you 20 times more likely to have a screw loose and kill someone with a gun... cos thats what your beloved stats show... 20 times more deaths per capita than any other country...

is it something the government is putting into people's water that makes them kill?

....Or has this country become a Warmongering state of mind, that loves to be in a War at least every 10 years.

War is good and War is good for business it keeps some of us in constant Kill mode.

It would be so good to have a little more PEACE.....create a Department Of Peace, let's put Dennis Kuncinich on it.

Peace