Former EU Heads Call For Palestinian State

Drowned Out

Best of Times wrote:

Here is your evidence. The fact that you needed me to "sight" this for you, in indicative.....
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12812186/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... Harry.html

jesus, man.... It's been all over the news for years now.


Now, your turn. Please site any one of my "90% personal attacks". Then put your thick skin on, and we'll talk again.

You give me shit for citing a non-academic news piece from the guardian (which I didn’t)…then you cite a daily mail article about baby names and an op-ed from msnbc?

From the msnbc article:
“Among other issues, the fury in the streets among the mostly Muslim youth has underscored the lack of political representation for this growing segment of French society.”
….Sounds more like a crisis of apathy and disconnect, resulting in a large demographic feeling politically disaffected. This is not anything resembling proof of the increasing Muslim population being a ‘growing crisis’ in and of itself.

My thick skin is on, or I’d likely have told you to fuck yourself a few posts ago. I said I’d ignore them, so let it be; stop with the provocations.

Best of Times

polaris_x wrote:

Best of Times wrote:

Elect a gov't that isn't listed as a terrorist organization by the EU, US, Canada, etc.

Denounce and rewrite the 1988 Chater that calls for the destruction of Israel, for starters.

uhhhh ... what does that have to do with anything? ... would there even be a HAMAS if israel wasn't continually expanding illegally and treating palestinians as dirt? ... these are all deflection points ... at the end of the day, israel must not cater to the ultra-orthodox right wingers in parliament ... even our resident israeli on here has said as much ...

What's a "resident Israeli"? Your tone is offensive, and Polaris-X, I'm well acquainted w/ your views on Israel, and frankly, am not interested in debating w/ someone who holds the contemptable views that you do.
No offense intended, but no respect reserved.

Peace.

Best of Times

Drowned Out wrote:

Best of Times wrote:

Here is your evidence. The fact that you needed me to "sight" this for you, in indicative.....
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12812186/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... Harry.html

jesus, man.... It's been all over the news for years now.


Now, your turn. Please site any one of my "90% personal attacks". Then put your thick skin on, and we'll talk again.

You give me shit for citing a non-academic news piece from the guardian (which I didn’t)…then you cite a daily mail article about baby names and an op-ed from msnbc?

From the msnbc article:
“Among other issues, the fury in the streets among the mostly Muslim youth has underscored the lack of political representation for this growing segment of French society.”
….Sounds more like a crisis of apathy and disconnect, resulting in a large demographic feeling politically disaffected. This is not anything resembling proof of the increasing Muslim population being a ‘growing crisis’ in and of itself.

My thick skin is on, or I’d likely have told you to fuck yourself a few posts ago. I said I’d ignore them, so let it be; stop with the provocations.

Siting of personal attacks: FAIL. Thanks for coming out, kid.

Your homework for tomorrow is to read from whatever sources you choose, about the Muslim riots in France, the growing Muslim population in EU, and state how you think the EU governments could bridge this culture-gap. As usual, all thin-skinned liberals will be allowed to whine and cry and protest the unfair treatment of people you don't know, have never met, misunderstand, and hail from places you've only heard of.

Until tomorrow children...

fife

Best of Times wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

Best of Times wrote:

Elect a gov't that isn't listed as a terrorist organization by the EU, US, Canada, etc.

Denounce and rewrite the 1988 Chater that calls for the destruction of Israel, for starters.

uhhhh ... what does that have to do with anything? ... would there even be a HAMAS if israel wasn't continually expanding illegally and treating palestinians as dirt? ... these are all deflection points ... at the end of the day, israel must not cater to the ultra-orthodox right wingers in parliament ... even our resident israeli on here has said as much ...

What's a "resident Israeli"? Your tone is offensive, and Polaris-X, I'm well acquainted w/ your views on Israel, and frankly, am not interested in debating w/ someone who holds the contemptable views that you do.
No offense intended, but no respect reserved.

Peace.

What view would that be? that That maybe Israel should stop breaking international law?

satansbed

Best of Times wrote:

Not only is your question baseless and inflammatory, it's late to this discussion and frankly, lacks any academic basis, whatsoever. But, if you can show an example of my "bigotry towards Muslims", I'd be happy to pull a Holder for you.

your on an internet board, not in a university or college, so your not going to get academic referencing in this setting, and it shouldn't be expected its a fucking internet forum, however, i could provide you with academic sources pointing towards American and European islamaphobia is similar to antisemitism in Europe in the 1920's-30's, however you need to be in a university to access it and i highly doubt you are...


secondly, the idea that Islam is a problem in itself it is extremely bigoted, so how is my question baseless and inflammatory

Drowned Out

Best of Times wrote:

Your homework for tomorrow is to read from whatever sources you choose, about the Muslim riots in France, the growing Muslim population in EU, and state how you think the EU governments could bridge this culture-gap. As usual, all thin-skinned liberals will be allowed to whine and cry and protest the unfair treatment of people you don't know, have never met, misunderstand, and hail from places you've only heard of.

Who you callin liberal? There's a personal attack right there I don't define my beliefs by any of your pigeon-holed partisan ideological bullshit.
If you want to start a new thread about it, please do so, and I will reply to it…In the meantime, stop detracting from the original topic….I’ve asked no less than three times for you to show me how calls for recognition of the June '67 borders, and action against further settlement expansion, have sweet fuck all to do with the French Riots, the holocaust, jewish stereotypes, anti-Semitism etc. You can’t do it. The Israelis are 100% CRIMINAL in continuing to forcibly steal land, and 100% CRIMINAL in their blockade of Gaza.... you are simply trying to change the subject to avoid defending the indefensible....which you clearly do.

catefrances

Best of Times wrote:

Here is your evidence. The fact that you needed me to "sight" this for you, in indicative.....


Now, your turn. Please site any one of my "90% personal attacks". Then put your thick skin on, and we'll talk again.

for future reference, cause youve spelt it incorrectly twice just in this post.. its CITE.

Best of Times

catefrances wrote:

Best of Times wrote:

Here is your evidence. The fact that you needed me to "sight" this for you, in indicative.....


Now, your turn. Please site any one of my "90% personal attacks". Then put your thick skin on, and we'll talk again.

for future reference, cause youve spelt it incorrectly twice just in this post.. its CITE.

damn grammar nazis... :geek:

catefrances

Best of Times wrote:

catefrances wrote:

Best of Times wrote:

Here is your evidence. The fact that you needed me to "sight" this for you, in indicative.....


Now, your turn. Please site any one of my "90% personal attacks". Then put your thick skin on, and we'll talk again.

for future reference, cause youve spelt it incorrectly twice just in this post.. its CITE.

damn grammar nazis... :geek:

just trying to help you look more intelligent.

Byrnzie

Best of Times wrote:

As for these former EU leaders, much like some of ours, they should shoulder the responsibility for promoting the fiscal policies that led to this collapse- and the last bastion of refuge for the fathers of economic collapase is to blame it on the Jews.

Nice attempt at twisting the facts here.
The call for a Palestinian state in line with U.N 242 has been around a lot longer than the recent world economic recession. The whole world supports 242 and has supported it for the past 40 years. The whole world except the U.S that is. To trivialize this issue by claiming that it's just a diversionary tactic used to apportion blame on Israel for the present day fiscal crisis by some alleged anti-Semites is really scraping the bottom of the fucking barrel.

But then this doesn't really surprise me, as I'm pretty familiar with the fact that Israel's apologists have nothing but bullshit in their arsenal.

Byrnzie

Best of Times wrote:

Fucking academic arent you?

Best of Times wrote:

I was hoping for some reasoned debate. How can I debate you when you are so obviously, embarrassingly, and hopelessly uninformed?

That's not debate. That's Youtube level shit-slinging.

Byrnzie

Best of Times wrote:

Elect a gov't that isn't listed as a terrorist organization by the EU, US, Canada, etc.

Talking of terrorism, did you happen to notice what Israel did to the civilian population of Gaza last year?

Best of Times wrote:

Denounce and rewrite the 1988 Chater that calls for the destruction of Israel, for starters.

Ah, that old chestnut! Is that #99 in the Israel apologists handbook of 100 bullshit excuses for Israel's ongoing land-grab and race war?

yosi

polaris_x wrote:

Best of Times wrote:

Elect a gov't that isn't listed as a terrorist organization by the EU, US, Canada, etc.

Denounce and rewrite the 1988 Chater that calls for the destruction of Israel, for starters.

uhhhh ... what does that have to do with anything? ... would there even be a HAMAS if israel wasn't continually expanding illegally and treating palestinians as dirt? ... these are all deflection points ... at the end of the day, israel must not cater to the ultra-orthodox right wingers in parliament ... even our resident israeli on here has said as much ...

Isn't this blaming the victim? Hamas is a terrorist organization that engages in the intentional targeted slaughter of civilians. Such actions are never justifiable. Ever. No matter your grievances. Hamas is responsible for its actions, not Israel.

Byrnzie

yosi wrote:

Hamas is a terrorist organization that engages in the intentional targeted slaughter of civilians. Such actions are never justifiable. Ever. No matter your grievances. Hamas is responsible for its actions, not Israel.

Is the intentional slaughter of civilians by Israel also not justifiable, or is Israel's long history of slaughtering civilians and unarmed demonstrators acceptable?

yosi

Are you uncomfortable denouncing Hamas' terrorism as morally wrong? Cause this seems like a clear attempt at deflection. You don't like my condemnation of Hamas so you try to turn it around on Israel (which also serves, by implication, to set up Israel's alleged crimes as justification for Hamas' actions). Or maybe the discomfort is with the idea that the Palestinians should be treated as adults and held to be responsible for their actions. The fact is that your question has nothing to do with my statement. That's the whole point. No matter what Israel does or does not do there is no justification for Hamas' premeditated murder.

In any instance where Israel has knowingly, intentionally targeted and killed a person who is unambiguously an unarmed civilian, then yes, that action is unjustifiable. Are you willing to say the same about Hamas?

Byrnzie

yosi wrote:

Are you uncomfortable denouncing Hamas' terrorism as morally wrong? Cause this seems like a clear attempt at deflection. You don't like my condemnation of Hamas so you try to turn it around on Israel (which also serves, by implication, to set up Israel's alleged crimes as justification for Hamas' actions). Or maybe the discomfort is with the idea that the Palestinians should be treated as adults and held to be responsible for their actions. The fact is that your question has nothing to do with my statement. That's the whole point. No matter what Israel does or does not do there is no justification for Hamas' premeditated murder.

In any instance where Israel has knowingly, intentionally targeted and killed a person who is unambiguously an unarmed civilian, then yes, that action is unjustifiable. Are you willing to say the same about Hamas?

I don't condone the murder of civilians, but I also refuse to condemn Palestinian violence, just as I would have refused to condemn Jewish and French resistance groups targeting German civilians during World War II, or the Algerian FLN attacking French civilians during their anti-colonial struggle. I don't condone it, but I won't condemn it either. Israel is just as guilty for the deaths of it's civilians as long as it continues the occupation. If the Israeli leadership were really concerned with the security of it's citizens then it would end the occupation and fortify the internationally recognized 1967 border.

And Israeli terrorism against Palestinian civilians has been far greater.

yosi

Ok, so that's pretty clear. When it comes to Palestinian terrorism you do, in fact, blame the victim.

Frankly, I find your position disgusting. Morally repugnant and deformed.

Byrnzie

yosi wrote:

Ok, so that's pretty clear. When it comes to Palestinian terrorism you do, in fact, blame the victim.

The Israeli's aren't the victims, they're the occupiers. The occupation itself is an act of terrorism - 24 hour, constant terrorism.

yosi wrote:

Frankly, I find your position disgusting. Morally repugnant and deformed.

Frankly, I couldn't give a fuck.

yosi

You are really showing a shockingly callous lack of empathy.

Mar 27, 2002 - 30 people were killed and 140 injured - 20 seriously - in a suicide bombing in the Park Hotel in the coastal city of Netanya, in the midst of the Passover holiday seder with 250 guests. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
The victims: Shula Abramovitch, 63, of Holon; David Anichovitch, 70, of Netanya; Sgt.-Maj. Avraham Beckerman, 25, of Ashdod; Shimon Ben-Aroya, 42, of Netanya; Andre Fried, 47, of Netanya; Idit Fried, 47, of Netanya; Miriam Gutenzgan, 82, Ramat Gan; Ami Hamami, 44, of Netanya; Perla Hermele, 79, of Sweden; Dvora Karim, 73, of Netanya; Michael Karim, 78, of Netanya; Yehudit Korman, 70, of Ramat Hasharon; Marianne Myriam Lehmann Zaoui, 77, of Netanya; Lola Levkovitch, 85, of Jerusalem; Furuk Na'imi, 62, of Netanya; Eliahu Nakash, 85, of Tel-Aviv; Irit Rashel, 45, of Moshav Herev La'et; Yulia Talmi, 87, of Tel-Aviv; St.-Sgt. Sivan Vider, 20, of Bekaot; Ernest Weiss, 79, of Petah Tikva; Eva Weiss, 75, of Petah Tikva; Meir (George) Yakobovitch, 76, of Holon.
Chanah Rogan, 92, of Netanya; Zee'v Vider, 50, of Moshav Bekaot; Alter Britvich, 88, and his wife Frieda, 86, of Netanya died of their injuries on April 2-3, 2002.
Sarah Levy-Hoffman, 89, of Tel-Aviv died of her injuries on April 7, 2002.
Anna Yakobovitch, 78, of Holon died of her injuries on April 11, 2002.
Eliezer Korman, 74, of Ramat Hasharon died of his wounds on May 5, 2002.
Clara Rosenberger, 77, of Jerusalem died of her wounds on June 25, 2003.

You'll notice that virtually all of these people were elderly. That you don't consider them to be victims reflects very poorly on the state of your moral judgement. You should be ashamed.

Byrnzie

yosi wrote:

You are really showing a shockingly callous lack of empathy.

Mar 27, 2002 - 30 people were killed and 140 injured - 20 seriously - in a suicide bombing in the Park Hotel in the coastal city of Netanya, in the midst of the Passover holiday seder with 250 guests. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
The victims: Shula Abramovitch, 63, of Holon; David Anichovitch, 70, of Netanya; Sgt.-Maj. Avraham Beckerman, 25, of Ashdod; Shimon Ben-Aroya, 42, of Netanya; Andre Fried, 47, of Netanya; Idit Fried, 47, of Netanya; Miriam Gutenzgan, 82, Ramat Gan; Ami Hamami, 44, of Netanya; Perla Hermele, 79, of Sweden; Dvora Karim, 73, of Netanya; Michael Karim, 78, of Netanya; Yehudit Korman, 70, of Ramat Hasharon; Marianne Myriam Lehmann Zaoui, 77, of Netanya; Lola Levkovitch, 85, of Jerusalem; Furuk Na'imi, 62, of Netanya; Eliahu Nakash, 85, of Tel-Aviv; Irit Rashel, 45, of Moshav Herev La'et; Yulia Talmi, 87, of Tel-Aviv; St.-Sgt. Sivan Vider, 20, of Bekaot; Ernest Weiss, 79, of Petah Tikva; Eva Weiss, 75, of Petah Tikva; Meir (George) Yakobovitch, 76, of Holon.
Chanah Rogan, 92, of Netanya; Zee'v Vider, 50, of Moshav Bekaot; Alter Britvich, 88, and his wife Frieda, 86, of Netanya died of their injuries on April 2-3, 2002.
Sarah Levy-Hoffman, 89, of Tel-Aviv died of her injuries on April 7, 2002.
Anna Yakobovitch, 78, of Holon died of her injuries on April 11, 2002.
Eliezer Korman, 74, of Ramat Hasharon died of his wounds on May 5, 2002.
Clara Rosenberger, 77, of Jerusalem died of her wounds on June 25, 2003.

You'll notice that virtually all of these people were elderly. That you don't consider them to be victims reflects very poorly on the state of your moral judgement. You should be ashamed.

You are really showing a shockingly callous lack of honesty.

Would you really like me to list all of the Palestinian civilians murdered by Israeli terrorism since the year 2000? Because if you did, then I'd be here all day.
Like I said above, I don't condone it, but I also refuse to condemn it. And I also believe that people like yourself are largely responsible.