Also no one has answer for the WW2, should we have let Hitler have all of europe and surrendered to Japan after Pearl Harber? .
I'm guessing from the views expressed in this thread that most people would've taken the stance England took under Chamberlain. Its all about diplomacy and here he is in 1938 holding up the peace agreement with Germany.
I don't think any one particular service field or occupation automatically deems respect... just like any group, there's some good, some bad and some indifferent. Just like most things in life, acting like a good, decent human being is someone I would say exemplify these traits. We don't need religions, occupations or any other broad sweeping ideologies to understand basic ideals and morals we as a society or world can say are worthy of such terms and traits. Lastly, everyone loves to throw around these generic and broad sweeping ideas to hone in on some group in society (not just soldiers).. we have parades, ribbons, flags, groups and associations all to tell us how their little group, culture, occupation or similar is great and everyone is so overly proud .. especially to the point of creating over-sensitivity when one everyone doesn't get representation or recognition. At what point does all this stuff just boil down to the idea of being too proud with ourselves? Pride goeth before the fall.
And in terms of the poster who keeps bringing up WW2 and the Nazi's to somehow equate our well being today, well, it's misplaced. And to be honest, you could say the same of about tons of other significant historical occurrences in past, of which many with far from moral, altruistic or noteworthy. Also, if we're gonna have an open discussion about handing out such respect and similar, does this go for everyone who serves their nation as a solider and if so, what do you say about the people on the other side (and no I'm not just talking bout some extreme example like the Nazis)? I hardly say most of you would deem it in the same manner for enemies even though it's the same on the other side.
FiveB247, with all due respect I see you have used words like, Respect,Altruism,Vality and Righteous to mention a few. In your opinion what garners these praises, if not our service men and woman then what in your opinion makes you these things. I am having a hard time understanding what these words mean to you. I know and have expressed what some of them mean to me, my Dad and helping our Veterans?
I am really tired of this, I did not attend it to be a discussion on current events or history, it was a simple attempt to honor my Dad and his beloved USMC(my bad) but if you think the world including our world USA would be same today as it is or better if people like my Dad did not go to War in Europe against Hitler and germany, and in the Pacific against japan I do not know what to say to you. How is this misplaced, pleaase tell me, educate me on how things would be better with a Nazi(killed 6 million Jews if memory serves me) controlled Europe and all of S.East Asia and the Pacific including Hawaii and Austrailia and so on controlled by a you want "Brutal" Japan who where bent on their own genicide in China and anywhere they could take over.Please remember I did not start this part of discussion and agree w/ most people on present day US policy, but not a complete generalization of how brutal our service men and women are and have been for 235 years,but that does not mean you(maybe not u specifically) can shit on my Dad's memory and my attempt to honor him!
11/5/91: Troy NY "I Just Want to SCREAM... HELLO!"
8/4/92:Saratoga NY 4/6/94:Mass 9/13/98:CT
8/27/2000:Saratoga NY,10/04/2000:Montreal,Canada
04/29/03:Albany, 5/12/06:Albany NY,10/31/09:Philly,5/15/10Hartford CT
I don't think any one particular service field or occupation automatically deems respect... just like any group, there's some good, some bad and some indifferent. Just like most things in life, acting like a good, decent human being is someone I would say exemplify these traits. We don't need religions, occupations or any other broad sweeping ideologies to understand basic ideals and morals we as a society or world can say are worthy of such terms and traits. Lastly, everyone loves to throw around these generic and broad sweeping ideas to hone in on some group in society (not just soldiers).. we have parades, ribbons, flags, groups and associations all to tell us how their little group, culture, occupation or similar is great and everyone is so overly proud .. especially to the point of creating over-sensitivity when one everyone doesn't get representation or recognition. At what point does all this stuff just boil down to the idea of being too proud with ourselves? Pride goeth before the fall.
And in terms of the poster who keeps bringing up WW2 and the Nazi's to somehow equate our well being today, well, it's misplaced. And to be honest, you could say the same of about tons of other significant historical occurrences in past, of which many with far from moral, altruistic or noteworthy. Also, if we're gonna have an open discussion about handing out such respect and similar, does this go for everyone who serves their nation as a solider and if so, what do you say about the people on the other side (and no I'm not just talking bout some extreme example like the Nazis)? I hardly say most of you would deem it in the same manner for enemies even though it's the same on the other side.
FiveB247, with all due respect I see you have used words like, Respect,Altruism,Vality and Righteous to mention a few. In your opinion what garners these praises, if not our service men and woman then what in your opinion makes you these things. I am having a hard time understanding what these words mean to you. I know and have expressed what some of them mean to me, my Dad and helping our Veterans?
I am really tired of this, I did not attend it to be a discussion on current events or history, it was a simple attempt to honor my Dad and his beloved USMC(my bad) but if you think the world including our world USA would be same today as it is or better if people like my Dad did not go to War in Europe against Hitler and germany, and in the Pacific against japan I do not know what to say to you. How is this misplaced, pleaase tell me, educate me on how things would be better with a Nazi(killed 6 million Jews if memory serves me) controlled Europe and all of S.East Asia and the Pacific including Hawaii and Austrailia and so on controlled by a you want "Brutal" Japan who where bent on their own genicide in China and anywhere they could take over.Please remember I did not start this part of discussion and agree w/ most people on present day US policy, but not a complete generalization of how brutal our service men and women are and have been for 235 years,but that does not mean you(maybe not u specifically) can shit on my Dad's memory and my attempt to honor him!
people act as if america alone was responsible for defeating hitler. if you want to be very specific, hitler beat himself. he broke the non-aggression pact with russia, making it a two front war in eurpoe and asia, and that was his fatal mistake. germany outran their supply line and that was their undoing. russia kicked the shit out of the nazis at stalingrad, with the russians having 1,129,619 total casualties in that battle alone. had we not gotten involved do you think stalin would have made peace with germany and let hitler have europe after that? i don't. i think stalin would have gone west until he pushed the germans into the english channel. americans were not the only ones who defeated hitler and japan. it was a mulitnational effort fought by many nations, all of which were essential to the victory, on 3 continents, truely a world war.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Please do not lump others comments and opinions to mine. I never made the 235 yrs comment or stated anything all that disrespectful to you. Simply because I don't share the same viewpoint, does not mean I'm pissing on your right or thought to celebrate your father. Secondly, my comments are mainly directed at the wholistic notion of such celebrations, not directed at your dad. As I stated previously, there's good, bad and indifferent in everything in life. Lastly, in terms of WW2, no one has ever made the comment that we'd somehow be better off, but simply are saying there were many reasons and actions (some in-actions) regarding that war which are very casually glazed over to enact an overly altruistic and patriotic version of history in which just about every war since has been some type of basis or measure for.
I am really tired of this, I did not attend it to be a discussion on current events or history, it was a simple attempt to honor my Dad and his beloved USMC(my bad) but if you think the world including our world USA would be same today as it is or better if people like my Dad did not go to War in Europe against Hitler and germany, and in the Pacific against japan I do not know what to say to you. How is this misplaced, pleaase tell me, educate me on how things would be better with a Nazi(killed 6 million Jews if memory serves me) controlled Europe and all of S.East Asia and the Pacific including Hawaii and Austrailia and so on controlled by a you want "Brutal" Japan who where bent on their own genicide in China and anywhere they could take over.Please remember I did not start this part of discussion and agree w/ most people on present day US policy, but not a complete generalization of how brutal our service men and women are and have been for 235 years,but that does not mean you(maybe not u specifically) can shit on my Dad's memory and my attempt to honor him!
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
I agree with everything you said, but we can not change history. Hitler and Pearl Harbor did happen to no fault of my Dad and the other young men who voluntered to go 1000's miles from their home and families to do something about it, and that should be honored and respected, and that was all I wanted to do. Nothing political or even regarding present Gov policy in middle east. I applaud your efforts and time and I am sure it is appreciated as i know the little things are so important to these guys/gals coming home or deploying. I enjoy visiting the Arms Forces Retirement Homes, mostly just chatting with old WW2 & korean Vets. I know they appreciate not being forgotten. By the way my comments about getting involved were not directed at you. God Bless and keep up the good work, we need more like you. I actually visited Camp Pendleton with my Dad for a Chosin Few reunion, I was 16 or 17 and see him in his Glory with old buddies from Korea where they help over 50,000 Korean cilvilians evacuate to coast of S.Korea.
Peace
...
Which is why I feel that the ones who most want peace are the people who have to face the bullets. The politicians will send them... the people who will not face the bullets will cheer from the comfort of their cozy living rooms, while the ones wearing Kevlar and humping an M-16 will carry the entire load.
And the WWII Generation is a different story... the America of 1940 is different. Sure, if the attacks of September 11th, 2001 were perpetrated by military aircraft wearing the red star of China, things would be different... well... maybe. Who know, Bush might have still gone after Hussein.
The point I am making is that the nation sacrificed in WWII. There was rationing of goods and services, increased taxes to fund the effort. The world was different.
...
That being said, I honor and respect those who choose to wear the uniform, knowing that they may be called to duty. We should not fault the common foot soldier and lay responsibility where it really belongs... on world leaders who decide that War is the solution to socio-economic issues.
And as a nation... if we really WERE a greateful nation... we would not have Viet Nam veterans... Gulf War veterans... Iraq War veterans sleeping on the streets of our cities and being told by our citizens to 'get a job'. It makes me sick that we only honor our veterans as long as they are in uniform... once they are out, we don't think they deserve anything.
If it were up to me... I would raise taxes on everyone in order to, at least, feel some financial pain of the cost of war. If we all shared in carrying the load... maybe we'd hear the prayers of the soldiers who pray for peace and give long thought on choosing to send our military people to face the bullets.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
If you look at the historical events... the agreement was that Germany and England would not declare War on each other. There was nothing in the treaty saying anything about Poland or and other neighboring country. Germany signed the non-aggression act with Russia. Britian signed a Mutual Assistance pact. Germany invades Poland.
Britian and France along with Austrailia and New Zealand declared war on Germany... followed shortly by Canada. The War in Europe rages on for 2 years as the Russians and Germans divided Poland and European nations fall, including France, to Germany. The Eastern Front is opened, Britian and Russia sign a Mutual assistance pact.
Japan attacks Pearl Harbor... U.S. and Britian declared war with Japan... Hitler declares war with the U.S., 3 days later in order to make the sinking of U.S. flagged convoys to England, acts of War.
The U.S. didn't declare the European war to save any of the Jews. That is a falisy that has become talking points. The world knew of the Nazis cleansing of the non-Arayans... not to the extent of their autracities... but, news of the Nazis actions were known.
...
I bring this up because it comes up in discussions of war today. Arguements that we went there to save the Jews is not accurate. We had our own domestic problems to deal with and we did not lead the fight against Hitler. We eventually played a huge role in Hitler's defeat... but a lot of the credit has to go to Britian, the Soviets and nations such as Austrailia, New Zealand and Canada... who initally answered the call. And to insurgents in France and their terrorist tactics to disrupt the German occupation of their country.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
If you look at the historical events... the agreement was that Germany and England would not declare War on each other. There was nothing in the treaty saying anything about Poland or and other neighboring country. Germany signed the non-aggression act with Russia. Britian signed a Mutual Assistance pact. Germany invades Poland.
Britian and France along with Austrailia and New Zealand declared war on Germany... followed shortly by Canada. The War in Europe rages on for 2 years as the Russians and Germans divided Poland and European nations fall, including France, to Germany. The Eastern Front is opened, Britian and Russia sign a Mutual assistance pact.
Japan attacks Pearl Harbor... U.S. and Britian declared war with Japan... Hitler declares war with the U.S., 3 days later in order to make the sinking of U.S. flagged convoys to England, acts of War.
The U.S. didn't declare the European war to save any of the Jews. That is a falisy that has become talking points. The world knew of the Nazis cleansing of the non-Arayans... not to the extent of their autracities... but, news of the Nazis actions were known.
...
I bring this up because it comes up in discussions of war today. Arguements that we went there to save the Jews is not accurate. We had our own domestic problems to deal with and we did not lead the fight against Hitler. We eventually played a huge role in Hitler's defeat... but a lot of the credit has to go to Britian, the Soviets and nations such as Austrailia, New Zealand and Canada... who initally answered the call. And to insurgents in France and their terrorist tactics to disrupt the German occupation of their country.
Both your post are very well thought out and accurate from a WW2 history stand point. I am very familar with the Russians role, as well as Britian,Austrailia, New Zealand and Canada and all except Canada had much more at stake.As for in the Pacific Japan was posed to invade and take over China,Austrailia, New Zealand,Taiwan, Korea Manchuria ,Marianas Islands, the Marshall Islands, the Caroline Islands, and the Palau Islands ,Solomon Islands, Papua New Guinea, the Admiralty Islands, and the Bismarck Archipelago as well as Hawaii. Japanese where very brutal by most all accunts and had started a brutal gencide in China as well as on many of non-Japanese islands they had invaded and they prefered to kill than captured Marines and soldiers as opposed to taking them prisioner.I can not ccome up w/a plausible reason not to go to war w/Japan,maybe someone worderer or smarter can tell me. The statement I made about Europeon Jewish population was not "that we went there to save the Jews" it was that if we did not help stop Hitler by all accounts they would have wiped a whole ethnic group off the map.If we did not go to europe and supply europe much of their weapons(tanks) and supplies they would not have lasted past 1943 on their own.My views on more recent conflicts has been documented and it relect what many feel but it does not stop me from trying to honor my father and others like him who served in WW2.
11/5/91: Troy NY "I Just Want to SCREAM... HELLO!"
8/4/92:Saratoga NY 4/6/94:Mass 9/13/98:CT
8/27/2000:Saratoga NY,10/04/2000:Montreal,Canada
04/29/03:Albany, 5/12/06:Albany NY,10/31/09:Philly,5/15/10Hartford CT
Please do not lump others comments and opinions to mine. I never made the 235 yrs comment or stated anything all that disrespectful to you. Simply because I don't share the same viewpoint, does not mean I'm pissing on your right or thought to celebrate your father. Secondly, my comments are mainly directed at the wholistic notion of such celebrations, not directed at your dad. As I stated previously, there's good, bad and indifferent in everything in life. Lastly, in terms of WW2, no one has ever made the comment that we'd somehow be better off, but simply are saying there were many reasons and actions (some in-actions) regarding that war which are very casually glazed over to enact an overly altruistic and patriotic version of history in which just about every war since has been some type of basis or measure for.
I am really tired of this, I did not attend it to be a discussion on current events or history, it was a simple attempt to honor my Dad and his beloved USMC(my bad) but if you think the world including our world USA would be same today as it is or better if people like my Dad did not go to War in Europe against Hitler and germany, and in the Pacific against japan I do not know what to say to you. How is this misplaced, pleaase tell me, educate me on how things would be better with a Nazi(killed 6 million Jews if memory serves me) controlled Europe and all of S.East Asia and the Pacific including Hawaii and Austrailia and so on controlled by a you want "Brutal" Japan who where bent on their own genicide in China and anywhere they could take over.Please remember I did not start this part of discussion and agree w/ most people on present day US policy, but not a complete generalization of how brutal our service men and women are and have been for 235 yearsb],but that does not [mean you( not u specifically) can shit on my Dad's memory and my attempt to honor him![/b]
I bolded what I said and underlined that I did not mean you,but that does not mean you( not u specifically) can shit on my Dad's memory and my attempt to honor him As far as WW2 goes i am very knowledgeable on it and all that happened, my only point continues to be if men like my Dad did not go and fight, itt would not have been a two front war for Hitler.Hitler despertley wanted us to stay out of war and even issued orders not to sink american supply ships at one point before we entered war. So w/o our US forces how do you think things would look today,serously i am interested? Again for the record i am not trying to romanticize any part of war, but honoring those served with honor should be remembered IMO.Regarding your setting record straight on Lastly, in terms of WW2, no one has ever made the comment that we'd somehow be better off, but simply are saying there were many reasons and actions (some in-actions) regarding that war which are very casually glazed over to enact an overly altruistic and patriotic version of history in which just about every war since has been some type of basis or measure for.
I may have interperted your non commital on this issue to believe you thought we would better off or atleast no worse by staying out of it.I will re-check your post and I apologize if I did misunderstand your lack of answer to whether the world would better or worse w/o our involvement in WW2?
Peace
11/5/91: Troy NY "I Just Want to SCREAM... HELLO!"
8/4/92:Saratoga NY 4/6/94:Mass 9/13/98:CT
8/27/2000:Saratoga NY,10/04/2000:Montreal,Canada
04/29/03:Albany, 5/12/06:Albany NY,10/31/09:Philly,5/15/10Hartford CT
The reasons for entering WW2 are significantly different from those say from Iraq. Hitler was indiscriminately slaughtering an entire race of people. We are talking about an evil entity here that was the German invasion of Europe. People from all over the world took arms against this because they reconisged this was wrong. Anyone who faught against Hitler (some Germans did remember lets not forget them) have nothing but my greatest respect because I honestly don't know if I would have the courage to take arms. If the Allied, US, Russian and Indian (no one has mentioned India on this thread alarmingly) soldiers didn't rise up then yes we would all be up shit creek without a paddle however with Iraq it isn't as simple as that. The government lied about some threat that just wasn't there so they could mask an invasion that had more to do with economic and self centered politics then fighting to 'protect the world' or whatever.
Signing a piece of paper and becoming a soldier doesn't automatically make you a hero. Fireing a rifle in another country because you were ordered to doesn't make you a hero. Standing up for human rights regardless of any consequences to yourself THAT makes you a hero. The heroes of Iraq if you ask me are the soldiers who realised that what they were doing was wrong and had no viable reason. They chose to face imprisonment or exile then to commit or be apart of the organization that has killed or destroyed millions of lives in the name of profit. They chose these above loosing their humanity. Thet are the ones that deserve the medals, the praise and the parades. You can scream and shout how they are risking their lives but the question is what are you risking it for? It's absurd to put yourself in a position where you are putting your life at risk, your families welfare for the whim of some politition who couldn't care less about you let alone lying to you about why you are putting your life on the line. How much sympathy do you have for a drunk driver who kills himself by crashing into a wall? Very little I imagine. How much symapthy can you have for someone who risks their life for a reason they don't believe in or hasn't even bothered to give it a thought?
The soldiers of WW2 put their lives on the line beacuse they believed in stopping Hitler. What do the soldiers of Iraq believe? Have they even thought about what they are doing or the consequences of their actions? The lives their government has destroyed? Is taking arms now 'just a job'? Some people have made comments on this board like, 'civilians die in war, it's what happens'. Have we just grown numb to war and it's effects? Has life become that indisposible that we can make remarks like that with a shrug of the shoulders?
Any soldier or civilain who fight against real or just threats, opposission, human rights ect has nothing but my greatest respect and if there ever were to be a heaven then they deserve the best god damn seats in the house. Armed forces are necessary unfortunatly but we have become a society where war seems to be glorified, and we have got into a habbit of just praising a soldier just because thats what he is. Is every soldier in Iraq some numb, battle hungry goon? Of course not, some have become enveloped in the lies the governmnet set out, some are too scared to say 'no' and yes others will just not care. How many soldiers join up to 'protect our country' and how many join for employment?
KeepFaith44 - 235 years there have been many a great men and women who served your country in causes that were just and necessary and I salute them with you.
If it weren't for the sacrifices of the Armed Forces, nobody would have the right to burn the flag. Nobody would have the right to stand up for our enemies, either.
Here's a question for you all: Why are Americans so obsessed with the military? You never hear anybody else going on about it. Why is that? Why are Americans so obsessed with violence and flag-waving?
It's not an obsession with violence, and I think you realize that.
What's wrong with taking pride in your country? Why are kids indoctrinated to hate the United States? Do you take offense when North Korea rattles their sabres?
I rarely find myself posting in this section of the forum, and I also believe this is the first time that I have resorted to vulgarity during my time here. I realize this is most likely against the forum rules here, but I refuse to stay silent.
I have two grandfathers that were United States Marines. One fought in the jungles of the Pacific Theater in WW2. Both are decorated. My own father, while not in the Marines, served for 25 years as a physician in the United States Army. He has been decorated for humanitarian efforts and going above and beyond the call of duty in helping to streamline and update civilian medical facilities outside of the United States. I have great pride in the general population of the men and women of the United States Armed Forces.
To those that are disrespecting the United States Marine Corps, especially those who are American and doing so: Go fuck yourselves. For real. Like really, go fuck yourselves.
:thumbup: :thumbup:
Godfather.
0
g under p
Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
I agree with everything you said, but we can not change history. Hitler and Pearl Harbor did happen to no fault of my Dad and the other young men who voluntered to go 1000's miles from their home and families to do something about it, and that should be honored and respected, and that was all I wanted to do. Nothing political or even regarding present Gov policy in middle east. I applaud your efforts and time and I am sure it is appreciated as i know the little things are so important to these guys/gals coming home or deploying. I enjoy visiting the Arms Forces Retirement Homes, mostly just chatting with old WW2 & korean Vets. I know they appreciate not being forgotten. By the way my comments about getting involved were not directed at you. God Bless and keep up the good work, we need more like you. I actually visited Camp Pendleton with my Dad for a Chosin Few reunion, I was 16 or 17 and see him in his Glory with old buddies from Korea where they help over 50,000 Korean cilvilians evacuate to coast of S.Korea.
Peace
...
Which is why I feel that the ones who most want peace are the people who have to face the bullets. The politicians will send them... the people who will not face the bullets will cheer from the comfort of their cozy living rooms, while the ones wearing Kevlar and humping an M-16 will carry the entire load.
And the WWII Generation is a different story... the America of 1940 is different. Sure, if the attacks of September 11th, 2001 were perpetrated by military aircraft wearing the red star of China, things would be different... well... maybe. Who know, Bush might have still gone after Hussein.
The point I am making is that the nation sacrificed in WWII. There was rationing of goods and services, increased taxes to fund the effort. The world was different.
...
That being said, I honor and respect those who choose to wear the uniform, knowing that they may be called to duty. We should not fault the common foot soldier and lay responsibility where it really belongs... on world leaders who decide that War is the solution to socio-economic issues.
And as a nation... if we really WERE a greateful nation... we would not have Viet Nam veterans... Gulf War veterans... Iraq War veterans sleeping on the streets of our cities and being told by our citizens to 'get a job'. It makes me sick that we only honor our veterans as long as they are in uniform... once they are out, we don't think they deserve anything. If it were up to me... I would raise taxes on everyone in order to, at least, feel some financial pain of the cost of war. If we all shared in carrying the load... maybe we'd hear the prayers of the soldiers who pray for peace and give long thought on choosing to send our military people to face the bullets.
When the day comes when our American citizens can feel the financial costs of war or facing the call of a draft....maybe then will our thoughts and feelings of constant warmongering will finally change. As long as those wars are not in our backyards we've become disengaged from what actually happens in war ....Death and Mayhem.
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
If you look at the historical events... the agreement was that Germany and England would not declare War on each other. There was nothing in the treaty saying anything about Poland or and other neighboring country. Germany signed the non-aggression act with Russia. Britian signed a Mutual Assistance pact. Germany invades Poland.
Britian and France along with Austrailia and New Zealand declared war on Germany... followed shortly by Canada. The War in Europe rages on for 2 years as the Russians and Germans divided Poland and European nations fall, including France, to Germany. The Eastern Front is opened, Britian and Russia sign a Mutual assistance pact.
Japan attacks Pearl Harbor... U.S. and Britian declared war with Japan... Hitler declares war with the U.S., 3 days later in order to make the sinking of U.S. flagged convoys to England, acts of War.
The U.S. didn't declare the European war to save any of the Jews. That is a falisy that has become talking points. The world knew of the Nazis cleansing of the non-Arayans... not to the extent of their autracities... but, news of the Nazis actions were known.
...
I bring this up because it comes up in discussions of war today. Arguements that we went there to save the Jews is not accurate. We had our own domestic problems to deal with and we did not lead the fight against Hitler. We eventually played a huge role in Hitler's defeat... but a lot of the credit has to go to Britian, the Soviets and nations such as Austrailia, New Zealand and Canada... who initally answered the call. And to insurgents in France and their terrorist tactics to disrupt the German occupation of their country.
Yes, a lot of people tend to forget that the Soviet Union and Britain had been battling Germany for years before we got really involved in Europe, outside of bombing campaigns in 1942-3. There is no telling how much more difficult our job would have been had the Soviets not killed or captured millions of German troops before we ever hit the beaches of Normandy. Credit where credit is due. I don't think the US (with the Allies of course) could have beaten Germany as quickly as we did (in 2.5 years counting battles in Africa, Sicily, Italy, France, Germany, etc.) if the Germans hadn't faced such massive attrition in the East. It works the other way too. The Allies could not have beaten the Germans without us, no matter how many ships, planes, tanks, and guns we sent them. Opening the Western Front was the turning point.
On the Jewish remarks. I believe you are pretty accurate. People knew about the Nazis and about some of the things they were doing, but I bet most ordinary American citizens and soldier of the time had no idea. You can read many accounts of soldiers and the reactions upon liberating concentration camps. I think they had an idea, but no one knew to what extreme Hitler was exterminating people. You know, I think it is human nature to turn a blind eye toward atrocity until you actually see it. We are basically ostriches when it comes to things like that. Look at Darfur. How many people here, really truly understand what is happening there? I think most of us know, but don't REALLY know, if that makes sense. And I don't think the Americans of the 1930s and 40s were much different. I think people knew, but didn't REALLY know until they saw it first-hand.
Oh, and to the OP, thanks to your Dad for his work.
What's wrong with taking pride in your country? Why are kids indoctrinated to hate the United States? Do you take offense when North Korea rattles their sabres?
I didn't say there was anything wrong with taking pride in your country. I asked why Americans are obsessed with the military. You don't get this shit in any other country. And what kids are indoctinated to hate America? Or did you just make that up because it sounded good?
What's wrong with taking pride in your country? Why are kids indoctrinated to hate the United States? Do you take offense when North Korea rattles their sabres?
I didn't say there was anything wrong with taking pride in your country. I asked why Americans are obsessed with the military. You don't get this shit in any other country. And what kids are indoctinated to hate America? Or did you just make that up because it sounded good?
I do not think the average American is obsessed w/ the military at all. However over the last 50 years or so US military has become the Worlds enforcer or rescuer(people forget the Marine Corp are the first to be deployed in natural diasters around the world and peace keeper mission ) for good or bad. The second reason is our leaders in Washington have become bagmen for anyone who got the cash to keep them employed and this includes the Companies who make military weapons & logistical supports, as well as many of our so called allies who prefer we shed the blood for their "contributions'. The US Gov leaders also have a real problem of looking out for the interest of other countries(one much more than any other) w/o out regard to how it effects us and how we are seen in the rest of the world. Again this too is a money for we will support your policies w/o caring how it threatens our reputation and ultimatley our people.Regarding kids being indoctinated to hate America, well I have a daughter(13) and have coached baseball and basketbal for years and I can say it is much more cool to be or say anti/US things or believe conspiracy theories about say 9/11 than it was when I was growing up. Obviously we live in an age where info on anything is a few key strokes away. As a parent I remind my daughter that there is alot of good info on the internet, but there is just as much inaccurate or self serving info as well and to do your research through multiple sources to get valid or atleast balanced understanding of the given topic.
11/5/91: Troy NY "I Just Want to SCREAM... HELLO!"
8/4/92:Saratoga NY 4/6/94:Mass 9/13/98:CT
8/27/2000:Saratoga NY,10/04/2000:Montreal,Canada
04/29/03:Albany, 5/12/06:Albany NY,10/31/09:Philly,5/15/10Hartford CT
and let us not forget that that pope pius XII sat on his hands during the holocaust as well. he ignored or did not respond to cries from help on behalf of the jews for years.
so if the pope did nothing, how were the people that follow him going to do anything to stop it?
A discussion of war and anti-war might be better on a thread that wasn't intended to honor someone's father for his service to the nation. Please do that. The worst of this thread will be cleaned up. Please respect topic integrity and be mindful of other people's feelings.
I come from an anti-war point of view in case anyone wants to question the reason for this reminder...but I also realize the reason for a military. There's plenty of room to debate past and/or future military actions on a new thread; let's remember our manners and the Posting Guidelines when we debate please. Thank you.
A discussion of war and anti-war might be better on a thread that wasn't intended to honor someone's father for his service to the nation. Please do that. The worst of this thread will be cleaned up. Please respect topic integrity and be mindful of other people's feelings.
I come from an anti-war point of view in case anyone wants to question the reason for this reminder...but I also realize the reason for a military. There's plenty of room to debate past and/or future military actions on a new thread; let's remember our manners and the Posting Guidelines when we debate please. Thank you.
:thumbup:
The worst of this thread will be cleaned up
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Ok, there was some good and bad debate on the thread. I couldn't remove as much as I would have liked because the OP engaged in the debate. Please report to us sooner when an inappropriate comment is made. Thank you....and don't forget to think about the topic you're on when debating...and don't get personal. I'm going to keep saying that until it sinks in. If I missed something, let me know.
God bless the US Marine Corps. God bless the USA. I salute those who serve our country and protect our freedom not only on Veterans Day, but all days of the year.
"FF, I've heard the droning about the Sawx being the baby dolls. Yeah, I get it, you guys invented baseball and suffered forever. I get it." -JearlPam0925
What's wrong with taking pride in your country? Why are kids indoctrinated to hate the United States? Do you take offense when North Korea rattles their sabres?
I didn't say there was anything wrong with taking pride in your country. I asked why Americans are obsessed with the military. You don't get this shit in any other country. And what kids are indoctinated to hate America? Or did you just make that up because it sounded good?
You accuse me of making things up?
I'd sure like to know where you get your news. Actually, no I wouldn't. I don't care.
Marines are pussies!!!!! Knuckle dragging cannon fodder
*runs away before someone kicks my ass*
*grandfather was at Normandy*
*father was army intel in west berlin 1961-1963*
Thank You to ALL Vets!!!!! :idea:
Ok, now we are going to have some fun, don't forget i grew up in a home with 30 year Jarhead, he knew em all. My uncle was retired NAVY and they would go at it, funny as hell. My cousin once asked my Mom and Aunt, "when did the Navy and Marines have their war?"
"The Marine Corp is part of the NAVY, ya the Best Part!"
So whats ARMY really stand for? ARMY — Aren't Ready for Marine's Yet!
God Bless your Dog Faced Grandfather and Dad on this Veterans Day and every day!Hooah for the Army, a day late and Dead if not for the Marines(always liked that one)On a serious note they are remembered today by atleat me and you seem as proud of them as I am of my Dad and Uncle.
Take Care
11/5/91: Troy NY "I Just Want to SCREAM... HELLO!"
8/4/92:Saratoga NY 4/6/94:Mass 9/13/98:CT
8/27/2000:Saratoga NY,10/04/2000:Montreal,Canada
04/29/03:Albany, 5/12/06:Albany NY,10/31/09:Philly,5/15/10Hartford CT
Comments
all about diplomacy you say?
I am really tired of this, I did not attend it to be a discussion on current events or history, it was a simple attempt to honor my Dad and his beloved USMC(my bad) but if you think the world including our world USA would be same today as it is or better if people like my Dad did not go to War in Europe against Hitler and germany, and in the Pacific against japan I do not know what to say to you. How is this misplaced, pleaase tell me, educate me on how things would be better with a Nazi(killed 6 million Jews if memory serves me) controlled Europe and all of S.East Asia and the Pacific including Hawaii and Austrailia and so on controlled by a you want "Brutal" Japan who where bent on their own genicide in China and anywhere they could take over.Please remember I did not start this part of discussion and agree w/ most people on present day US policy, but not a complete generalization of how brutal our service men and women are and have been for 235 years,but that does not mean you(maybe not u specifically) can shit on my Dad's memory and my attempt to honor him!
8/4/92:Saratoga NY 4/6/94:Mass 9/13/98:CT
8/27/2000:Saratoga NY,10/04/2000:Montreal,Canada
04/29/03:Albany, 5/12/06:Albany NY,10/31/09:Philly,5/15/10Hartford CT
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Which is why I feel that the ones who most want peace are the people who have to face the bullets. The politicians will send them... the people who will not face the bullets will cheer from the comfort of their cozy living rooms, while the ones wearing Kevlar and humping an M-16 will carry the entire load.
And the WWII Generation is a different story... the America of 1940 is different. Sure, if the attacks of September 11th, 2001 were perpetrated by military aircraft wearing the red star of China, things would be different... well... maybe. Who know, Bush might have still gone after Hussein.
The point I am making is that the nation sacrificed in WWII. There was rationing of goods and services, increased taxes to fund the effort. The world was different.
...
That being said, I honor and respect those who choose to wear the uniform, knowing that they may be called to duty. We should not fault the common foot soldier and lay responsibility where it really belongs... on world leaders who decide that War is the solution to socio-economic issues.
And as a nation... if we really WERE a greateful nation... we would not have Viet Nam veterans... Gulf War veterans... Iraq War veterans sleeping on the streets of our cities and being told by our citizens to 'get a job'. It makes me sick that we only honor our veterans as long as they are in uniform... once they are out, we don't think they deserve anything.
If it were up to me... I would raise taxes on everyone in order to, at least, feel some financial pain of the cost of war. If we all shared in carrying the load... maybe we'd hear the prayers of the soldiers who pray for peace and give long thought on choosing to send our military people to face the bullets.
Hail, Hail!!!
Britian and France along with Austrailia and New Zealand declared war on Germany... followed shortly by Canada. The War in Europe rages on for 2 years as the Russians and Germans divided Poland and European nations fall, including France, to Germany. The Eastern Front is opened, Britian and Russia sign a Mutual assistance pact.
Japan attacks Pearl Harbor... U.S. and Britian declared war with Japan... Hitler declares war with the U.S., 3 days later in order to make the sinking of U.S. flagged convoys to England, acts of War.
The U.S. didn't declare the European war to save any of the Jews. That is a falisy that has become talking points. The world knew of the Nazis cleansing of the non-Arayans... not to the extent of their autracities... but, news of the Nazis actions were known.
...
I bring this up because it comes up in discussions of war today. Arguements that we went there to save the Jews is not accurate. We had our own domestic problems to deal with and we did not lead the fight against Hitler. We eventually played a huge role in Hitler's defeat... but a lot of the credit has to go to Britian, the Soviets and nations such as Austrailia, New Zealand and Canada... who initally answered the call. And to insurgents in France and their terrorist tactics to disrupt the German occupation of their country.
Hail, Hail!!!
Both your post are very well thought out and accurate from a WW2 history stand point. I am very familar with the Russians role, as well as Britian,Austrailia, New Zealand and Canada and all except Canada had much more at stake.As for in the Pacific Japan was posed to invade and take over China,Austrailia, New Zealand,Taiwan, Korea Manchuria ,Marianas Islands, the Marshall Islands, the Caroline Islands, and the Palau Islands ,Solomon Islands, Papua New Guinea, the Admiralty Islands, and the Bismarck Archipelago as well as Hawaii. Japanese where very brutal by most all accunts and had started a brutal gencide in China as well as on many of non-Japanese islands they had invaded and they prefered to kill than captured Marines and soldiers as opposed to taking them prisioner.I can not ccome up w/a plausible reason not to go to war w/Japan,maybe someone worderer or smarter can tell me. The statement I made about Europeon Jewish population was not "that we went there to save the Jews" it was that if we did not help stop Hitler by all accounts they would have wiped a whole ethnic group off the map.If we did not go to europe and supply europe much of their weapons(tanks) and supplies they would not have lasted past 1943 on their own.My views on more recent conflicts has been documented and it relect what many feel but it does not stop me from trying to honor my father and others like him who served in WW2.
8/4/92:Saratoga NY 4/6/94:Mass 9/13/98:CT
8/27/2000:Saratoga NY,10/04/2000:Montreal,Canada
04/29/03:Albany, 5/12/06:Albany NY,10/31/09:Philly,5/15/10Hartford CT
I bolded what I said and underlined that I did not mean you,but that does not mean you( not u specifically) can shit on my Dad's memory and my attempt to honor him As far as WW2 goes i am very knowledgeable on it and all that happened, my only point continues to be if men like my Dad did not go and fight, itt would not have been a two front war for Hitler.Hitler despertley wanted us to stay out of war and even issued orders not to sink american supply ships at one point before we entered war. So w/o our US forces how do you think things would look today,serously i am interested? Again for the record i am not trying to romanticize any part of war, but honoring those served with honor should be remembered IMO.Regarding your setting record straight on Lastly, in terms of WW2, no one has ever made the comment that we'd somehow be better off, but simply are saying there were many reasons and actions (some in-actions) regarding that war which are very casually glazed over to enact an overly altruistic and patriotic version of history in which just about every war since has been some type of basis or measure for.
I may have interperted your non commital on this issue to believe you thought we would better off or atleast no worse by staying out of it.I will re-check your post and I apologize if I did misunderstand your lack of answer to whether the world would better or worse w/o our involvement in WW2?
Peace
8/4/92:Saratoga NY 4/6/94:Mass 9/13/98:CT
8/27/2000:Saratoga NY,10/04/2000:Montreal,Canada
04/29/03:Albany, 5/12/06:Albany NY,10/31/09:Philly,5/15/10Hartford CT
Signing a piece of paper and becoming a soldier doesn't automatically make you a hero. Fireing a rifle in another country because you were ordered to doesn't make you a hero. Standing up for human rights regardless of any consequences to yourself THAT makes you a hero. The heroes of Iraq if you ask me are the soldiers who realised that what they were doing was wrong and had no viable reason. They chose to face imprisonment or exile then to commit or be apart of the organization that has killed or destroyed millions of lives in the name of profit. They chose these above loosing their humanity. Thet are the ones that deserve the medals, the praise and the parades. You can scream and shout how they are risking their lives but the question is what are you risking it for? It's absurd to put yourself in a position where you are putting your life at risk, your families welfare for the whim of some politition who couldn't care less about you let alone lying to you about why you are putting your life on the line. How much sympathy do you have for a drunk driver who kills himself by crashing into a wall? Very little I imagine. How much symapthy can you have for someone who risks their life for a reason they don't believe in or hasn't even bothered to give it a thought?
The soldiers of WW2 put their lives on the line beacuse they believed in stopping Hitler. What do the soldiers of Iraq believe? Have they even thought about what they are doing or the consequences of their actions? The lives their government has destroyed? Is taking arms now 'just a job'? Some people have made comments on this board like, 'civilians die in war, it's what happens'. Have we just grown numb to war and it's effects? Has life become that indisposible that we can make remarks like that with a shrug of the shoulders?
Any soldier or civilain who fight against real or just threats, opposission, human rights ect has nothing but my greatest respect and if there ever were to be a heaven then they deserve the best god damn seats in the house. Armed forces are necessary unfortunatly but we have become a society where war seems to be glorified, and we have got into a habbit of just praising a soldier just because thats what he is. Is every soldier in Iraq some numb, battle hungry goon? Of course not, some have become enveloped in the lies the governmnet set out, some are too scared to say 'no' and yes others will just not care. How many soldiers join up to 'protect our country' and how many join for employment?
KeepFaith44 - 235 years there have been many a great men and women who served your country in causes that were just and necessary and I salute them with you.
We would have been conquered by them.
It's not an obsession with violence, and I think you realize that.
What's wrong with taking pride in your country? Why are kids indoctrinated to hate the United States? Do you take offense when North Korea rattles their sabres?
Godfather.
When the day comes when our American citizens can feel the financial costs of war or facing the call of a draft....maybe then will our thoughts and feelings of constant warmongering will finally change. As long as those wars are not in our backyards we've become disengaged from what actually happens in war ....Death and Mayhem.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
Yes, a lot of people tend to forget that the Soviet Union and Britain had been battling Germany for years before we got really involved in Europe, outside of bombing campaigns in 1942-3. There is no telling how much more difficult our job would have been had the Soviets not killed or captured millions of German troops before we ever hit the beaches of Normandy. Credit where credit is due. I don't think the US (with the Allies of course) could have beaten Germany as quickly as we did (in 2.5 years counting battles in Africa, Sicily, Italy, France, Germany, etc.) if the Germans hadn't faced such massive attrition in the East. It works the other way too. The Allies could not have beaten the Germans without us, no matter how many ships, planes, tanks, and guns we sent them. Opening the Western Front was the turning point.
On the Jewish remarks. I believe you are pretty accurate. People knew about the Nazis and about some of the things they were doing, but I bet most ordinary American citizens and soldier of the time had no idea. You can read many accounts of soldiers and the reactions upon liberating concentration camps. I think they had an idea, but no one knew to what extreme Hitler was exterminating people. You know, I think it is human nature to turn a blind eye toward atrocity until you actually see it. We are basically ostriches when it comes to things like that. Look at Darfur. How many people here, really truly understand what is happening there? I think most of us know, but don't REALLY know, if that makes sense. And I don't think the Americans of the 1930s and 40s were much different. I think people knew, but didn't REALLY know until they saw it first-hand.
Oh, and to the OP, thanks to your Dad for his work.
BOS-9/28/04,9/29/04,6/28/08,6/30/08, 9/5/16, 9/7/16, 9/2/18
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CHI-8/2/07,8/5/07,8/23/09,8/24/09
HTFD-6/27/08
ATX-10/4/09, 10/12/14
KC-5/3/2010,STL-5/4/2010
Bridge School-10/23/2010,10/24/2010
PJ20-9/3/2011,9/4/2011
OKC-11/16/13
SEA-12/6/13
TUL-10/8/14
I didn't say there was anything wrong with taking pride in your country. I asked why Americans are obsessed with the military. You don't get this shit in any other country. And what kids are indoctinated to hate America? Or did you just make that up because it sounded good?
I do not think the average American is obsessed w/ the military at all. However over the last 50 years or so US military has become the Worlds enforcer or rescuer(people forget the Marine Corp are the first to be deployed in natural diasters around the world and peace keeper mission ) for good or bad. The second reason is our leaders in Washington have become bagmen for anyone who got the cash to keep them employed and this includes the Companies who make military weapons & logistical supports, as well as many of our so called allies who prefer we shed the blood for their "contributions'. The US Gov leaders also have a real problem of looking out for the interest of other countries(one much more than any other) w/o out regard to how it effects us and how we are seen in the rest of the world. Again this too is a money for we will support your policies w/o caring how it threatens our reputation and ultimatley our people.Regarding kids being indoctinated to hate America, well I have a daughter(13) and have coached baseball and basketbal for years and I can say it is much more cool to be or say anti/US things or believe conspiracy theories about say 9/11 than it was when I was growing up. Obviously we live in an age where info on anything is a few key strokes away. As a parent I remind my daughter that there is alot of good info on the internet, but there is just as much inaccurate or self serving info as well and to do your research through multiple sources to get valid or atleast balanced understanding of the given topic.
8/4/92:Saratoga NY 4/6/94:Mass 9/13/98:CT
8/27/2000:Saratoga NY,10/04/2000:Montreal,Canada
04/29/03:Albany, 5/12/06:Albany NY,10/31/09:Philly,5/15/10Hartford CT
so if the pope did nothing, how were the people that follow him going to do anything to stop it?
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... /pius.html
if he had taken action it may have inspired the rest of the world to do so...
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
I come from an anti-war point of view in case anyone wants to question the reason for this reminder...but I also realize the reason for a military. There's plenty of room to debate past and/or future military actions on a new thread; let's remember our manners and the Posting Guidelines when we debate please. Thank you.
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
You accuse me of making things up?
I'd sure like to know where you get your news. Actually, no I wouldn't. I don't care.
*runs away before someone kicks my ass*
*grandfather was at Normandy*
*father was army intel in west berlin 1961-1963*
Thank You to ALL Vets!!!!! :idea:
Wash me in the blood of Rock & Roll
"The Marine Corp is part of the NAVY, ya the Best Part!"
So whats ARMY really stand for? ARMY — Aren't Ready for Marine's Yet!
God Bless your Dog Faced Grandfather and Dad on this Veterans Day and every day!Hooah for the Army, a day late and Dead if not for the Marines(always liked that one)On a serious note they are remembered today by atleat me and you seem as proud of them as I am of my Dad and Uncle.
Take Care
8/4/92:Saratoga NY 4/6/94:Mass 9/13/98:CT
8/27/2000:Saratoga NY,10/04/2000:Montreal,Canada
04/29/03:Albany, 5/12/06:Albany NY,10/31/09:Philly,5/15/10Hartford CT