AP urges Supreme Court to side with ‘God hates fag’ church

Enkidu

There's a good article on this issue in Time I think this week. There's also something about free speech in what's considered a private place (that's not the right legal expression, I'm a moron with legal stuff), but a funeral I think is private. Obviously not on the public street across from the church. But a cemetery? Maybe?

I don't know where the Westboro freaks get their money. They're not really a church, they're not really Baptists. If you can stand it, check out the godhatesfags site. This is from the site, my favorite is the last one.

Numbers

5,730 - soldiers that God has killed in Iraq and Afghanistan.
44,238 - pickets conducted by WBC.
792 - cities that have been visited by WBC.
1005 - weeks that WBC has held daily pickets on the mean streets of doomed america.
154 - people whom God has cast into hell since you loaded this page.
218,400,000+ - gallons of oil that God poured in the Gulf.
$13.5 trillion+ - national debt of doomed america.
8 - people that God saved in the flood.
16,000,000,000 - people that God killed in the flood.
144,000 - Jews that will be saved in these last days.
0 - nanoseconds of sleep that WBC members lose over your opinions and feeeeellllliiiiiings.

haffajappa

mikepegg44 wrote:

I can stand with a generic sign anywhere. It is when the speech is directed at a particular person that it can become harrassment. At least in my eyes

Yeah but what if you had a sign that is directed at the president or an inmate about to be put to death or a sexual predator living next door?

Cosmo

Electric_Delta wrote:

These people do not represent the teachings of Jesus or Christians at large.

...
I agree that they are a small minority of Christians, but Fred Phelps represents a fundamentalist wing of Christianity. Like it or not, they are Christians. Christians that you may not agree with in their interpretation of the same Bible, but, Christians, nonetheless. Just as the Taliban and their fundamentalist interpretation of the Quran. Phelps looks to seek Christian Shi-ia Law in America.

Cosmo

haffajappa wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

I can stand with a generic sign anywhere. It is when the speech is directed at a particular person that it can become harrassment. At least in my eyes

Yeah but what if you had a sign that is directed at the president or an inmate about to be put to death or a sexual predator living next door?

...
That was going to by my point... if that is the case, the Tea Party with their sign can be accused of harrassment of President Obama.

Jason P

Cosmo wrote:

haffajappa wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

I can stand with a generic sign anywhere. It is when the speech is directed at a particular person that it can become harrassment. At least in my eyes

Yeah but what if you had a sign that is directed at the president or an inmate about to be put to death or a sexual predator living next door?

...
That was going to by my point... if that is the case, the Tea Party with their sign can be accused of harrassment of President Obama.

When the tea party shows up with signs and megaphones at Obama's funeral while his family and friends are grieving , then we can make the comparison.

There is a huge difference between waving a sign around on the steps of capital hall and waving one around at a cemetery. If we, as civil human beings, can't distinguish the difference, then there is still much work to do.

Cosmo

Jason P wrote:

When the tea party shows up with signs and megaphones at Obama's funeral while his family and friends are grieving , then we can make the comparison.

There is a huge difference between waving a sign around on the steps of capital hall and waving one around at a cemetery. If we, as civil human beings, can't distinguish the difference, then there is still much work to do.

...
Yes... but can't both fall under the vague veil of 'Harrassment'? In other words, you have to make very careful decisions when treading around Constitutional Rights of the people.
Which is why I compared Phelps' action with flag burning. You cannot outlaw flag burning... but you can outlaw open fires.
Maybe cities should draft laws the place noise restrictions near cemetarys... just as cities have banned open flame fires in public.

Godfather.

lets just cut to the chase and kick their ass's...they need it bad !

Godfather.

mikepegg44

haffajappa wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

I can stand with a generic sign anywhere. It is when the speech is directed at a particular person that it can become harrassment. At least in my eyes

Yeah but what if you had a sign that is directed at the president or an inmate about to be put to death or a sexual predator living next door?

Obama is a Public Figure, different rules apply.

As far as harassing a sex offender, you can be arrested for that, just like if you were harassing any other private citizen specifically.

not sure about an inmate, but it may fall into public figure and it may fall into harassment depending on what is in the sign. but my guess would be that it can be argued that they are public figures because of the high profile nature of their case.

My point is more along the lines of, if you do it, you are free to do it, but I definitley think you should be held liable for the damages it causes. That is what the court system is for. I think Freedom of speech is being wrongly applied here. I believe you can make a distinction between Harassment and Protest, both legally and simple common sense.

nuffingman

Godfather. wrote:

lets just cut to the chase and kick their ass's...they need it bad !

Godfather.

Yep let's cut the bull. If these happy clappers turned up at our relatives funerals the baseball bats would be primed. :evil:

Cosmo

nuffingman wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

lets just cut to the chase and kick their ass's...they need it bad !

Godfather.

Yep let's cut the bull. If these happy clappers turned up at our relatives funerals the baseball bats would be primed. :evil:

...
But.... that is exactly what they WANT... so they can play the 'Persecuted Christian Victims' role. They are basking in the notoriety and love all of the attension we are paying to them. You become the violent aggressor and you will be charged with assault and battery. Remember, these are Christian Fundamentalist we are dealing with and they would savor physical punishment... to make them feel closer to Jesus by enduring the physical pain He did. They would call themsleves martyrs.
The best thing to do is either ignore them or make fun of them. How about gathering the local High School band to stand in front of them and play John Phillip Souza songs? Or do as the father is doing... sueing them for harrassment.
A free society is not free of hazzards... and assholes.

keeponrockin

Cosmo wrote:

nuffingman wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

lets just cut to the chase and kick their ass's...they need it bad !

Godfather.

Yep let's cut the bull. If these happy clappers turned up at our relatives funerals the baseball bats would be primed. :evil:

...
But.... that is exactly what they WANT... so they can play the 'Persecuted Christian Victims' role. They are basking in the notoriety and love all of the attension we are paying to them. You become the violent aggressor and you will be charged with assault and battery. Remember, these are Christian Fundamentalist we are dealing with and they would savor physical punishment... to make them feel closer to Jesus by enduring the physical pain He did. They would call themsleves martyrs.
The best thing to do is either ignore them or make fun of them. How about gathering the local High School band to stand in front of them and play John Phillip Souza songs? Or do as the father is doing... sueing them for harrassment.
A free society is not free of hazzards... and assholes.

I know it's what they want... But if I could take a Louisville Slugger to anybody on the planet, I think Fred Phelps would be it...

Commy

this is one issue that is very black and white. because the second you open the door for the authorities to limit what we can say or where we can say it, they will walk through it. see germany and the rise of the nazi's, and what that led to. you allow them to decide where or what we can say now, 10 years or 20 years down the road who knows what we will be allowed to say, or what they will do without dissenting opinions keeping everybody sane.


not to mention the people are sorting this one out themselves. someone mentioned hundreds of bikers blocking these whackos, that's a solution that doesn't requite a change in law, does not require the authorities. and it's about time people stopped whining to the government, giving up freedom for a little comfort.


the people can sort this one out themselves, seem to be doing a good job so far.


and for those suggesting this isn't a free speech issue...what is the solution? you would have the government restrict what people can say, where they can say it, looks to be a pretty clear case of free speech to me.

haffajappa

mikepegg44 wrote:

haffajappa wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

I can stand with a generic sign anywhere. It is when the speech is directed at a particular person that it can become harrassment. At least in my eyes

Yeah but what if you had a sign that is directed at the president or an inmate about to be put to death or a sexual predator living next door?

Obama is a Public Figure, different rules apply.

As far as harassing a sex offender, you can be arrested for that, just like if you were harassing any other private citizen specifically.

not sure about an inmate, but it may fall into public figure and it may fall into harassment depending on what is in the sign. but my guess would be that it can be argued that they are public figures because of the high profile nature of their case.

My point is more along the lines of, if you do it, you are free to do it, but I definitley think you should be held liable for the damages it causes. That is what the court system is for. I think Freedom of speech is being wrongly applied here. I believe you can make a distinction between Harassment and Protest, both legally and simple common sense.

I wasn't aware "freedom of speech" had those rules.

Jason P

Commy wrote:

the people can sort this one out themselves, seem to be doing a good job so far.

If anything, that is one thing we can agree on. The riders have been surprisingly low-key in their mission and have avoided becoming a media spectacle. They provide an emotional barrier between the hate and the love and so far it has worked.

The most distressing thing to me is that I think that the Phelps clan believes they are not as infamous as they think they should be at this point. When you think about it, the only way to defeat them is to ignore them. Even if they get bankrupted, I think their messed-up willpower will allow them to forge ahead in their mission of hate. As long as the riders maintain discipline and respect, hopefully this will just be a side note in the pages of history.

Jason P

Cosmo wrote:

nuffingman wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

lets just cut to the chase and kick their ass's...they need it bad !

Godfather.

Yep let's cut the bull. If these happy clappers turned up at our relatives funerals the baseball bats would be primed. :evil:

...
But.... that is exactly what they WANT... so they can play the 'Persecuted Christian Victims' role. They are basking in the notoriety and love all of the attension we are paying to them. You become the violent aggressor and you will be charged with assault and battery. Remember, these are Christian Fundamentalist we are dealing with and they would savor physical punishment... to make them feel closer to Jesus by enduring the physical pain He did. They would call themsleves martyrs.
The best thing to do is either ignore them or make fun of them. How about gathering the local High School band to stand in front of them and play John Phillip Souza songs? Or do as the father is doing... sueing them for harrassment.
A free society is not free of hazzards... and assholes.

Cosmo, I don't always agree with you, but I dig your thought process. Have a nice weekend :wave:

Commy

Jason P wrote:

Commy wrote:

the people can sort this one out themselves, seem to be doing a good job so far.

If anything, that is one thing we can agree on. The riders have been surprisingly low-key in their mission and have avoided becoming a media spectacle. They provide an emotional barrier between the hate and the love and so far it has worked.

The most distressing thing to me is that I think that the Phelps clan believes they are not as infamous as they think they should be at this point. When you think about it, the only way to defeat them is to ignore them. Even if they get bankrupted, I think their messed-up willpower will allow them to forge ahead in their mission of hate. As long as the riders maintain discipline and respect, hopefully this will just be a side note in the pages of history.

i agree with you on this.


ignoring them would go a long way.

Godfather.

Cosmo wrote:

nuffingman wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

lets just cut to the chase and kick their ass's...they need it bad !

Godfather.

Yep let's cut the bull. If these happy clappers turned up at our relatives funerals the baseball bats would be primed. :evil:

...
But.... that is exactly what they WANT... so they can play the 'Persecuted Christian Victims' role. They are basking in the notoriety and love all of the attension we are paying to them. You become the violent aggressor and you will be charged with assault and battery. Remember, these are Christian Fundamentalist we are dealing with and they would savor physical punishment... to make them feel closer to Jesus by enduring the physical pain He did. They would call themsleves martyrs.
The best thing to do is either ignore them or make fun of them. How about gathering the local High School band to stand in front of them and play John Phillip Souza songs? Or do as the father is doing... sueing them for harrassment.
A free society is not free of hazzards... and assholes.

Cosmo ....You're right, sometimes logical thinking is not always the first idea and instant gratification comes to mind first using their own game against them would be the best idea"think as they would think and wait for an opening of their greatest weakness" then react(attack) legally and accordingly.

Godfather.

keeponrockin

I think Lady Gaga said the same sort of deal, 'pay them no mind'...

blueandwhite

I've always been a bit confused when people advocate absolute freedom of speech considering such a right should certainly include slander, inciting violence against others and harassment. If we're going to include freedom of expression under that umbrella shouldn't I have the right to arbitraily injure or outright kill whoever I want? Limiting any of these actions is certianly a restriction on my right to express myself freely.

Honestly, I would like to know why I shouldn't be able to cry "FIRE" in a crowded theater. Surely any civil or criminal prosucution against me would be in direct violation of my right to speak freely. In a society with absolute freedom of speech why would I be punished for saying anything?

haffajappa

blueandwhite wrote:

I've always been a bit confused when people advocate absolute freedom of speech considering such a right should certainly include slander, inciting violence against others and harassment. If we're going to include freedom of expression under that umbrella shouldn't I have the right to arbitraily injure or outright kill whoever I want? Limiting any of these actions is certianly a restriction on my right to express myself freely.

Honestly, I would like to know why I shouldn't be able to cry "FIRE" in a crowded theater. Surely any civil or criminal prosucution against me would be in direct violation of my right to speak freely. In a society with absolute freedom of speech why would I be punished for saying anything?

We're not agreeing with the WBC... we're just saying if it is a freedom of speech matter its dangerous to take it to court. Because then people can start drawing lines on what is "acceptable" free speech and what isn't.