To restrict his free speech... it means someone gets to decide what is 'hate speech'. Is the Tea Party inciting hatred towards our president? There are some that will argue, 'Yes... they are'. The First Amendment is the first right for a reason. because there are countries out there that decide what is good opinions and what are bad. That is for US to decide... as a free people.
I dont think the focus should be on the free speech aspect here. He is able to say what he wants in public, hold rallies and whatnot. But free speech doesnt mean anyone can say or yell anything anywhere.
The point here is, and should be, harassment. Picketing funerals and yelling in griever's faces about how their sinful ways were to blame for this and so forth, is harassment. Nail the fuckers on that. Not for their digusting opinions, but for intruding and harassing private gatherings. It's a free country, but unreasonably interfering with people's lives actually isn't a right. Restraining orders are dealt out regularly, are they not?
So, he can say what he want, but picketing funerals, slam his ass with emotional damage fines at the max.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
I dont think the focus should be on the free speech aspect here. He is able to say what he wants in public, hold rallies and whatnot. But free speech doesnt mean anyone can say or yell anything anywhere.
The point here is, and should be, harassment. Picketing funerals and yelling in griever's faces about how their sinful ways were to blame for this and so forth, is harassment. Nail the fuckers on that. Not for their digusting opinions, but for intruding and harassing private gatherings. It's a free country, but unreasonably interfering with people's lives actually isn't a right. Restraining orders are dealt out regularly, are they not?
So, he can say what he want, but picketing funerals, slam his ass with emotional damage fines at the max.
Peace
Dan
...
That is exactly correct.
Flag burning, for example. It is a form of free speech. But... an open fire in a public place is not. So, many cities have written laws prohibiting open fires in public settings. This way, the person burning the flag (or a cross or an efigy or a draft card or a bra) in an open fire can be arrested and charged on that offense.
Restrict the tactics used by Rev. Phelps' minions by restricting public harrassment, disturbing the peace or other statutes. Perhaps, drafting local legislation that limits noise levels within a certain distance of a cemetary or something. But, it must be done at the local or State, not the Federal level.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I don't know if anybody has said this but what do you do when a person or a group over-laps the free speech issue and infringes on another's rights ?
Godfather.
Well, I guess that's what me and Cosmo seem to be on about. Free speech is all well, but harassment etc is not precisely because free speech is one thing and personal rights another.
I'll restate that the key is not to outlaw the talk, but rather the method of graveyard picketers. That's where the line is drawn.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
i agree that the decision on this needs to be clear about the harassment issue. you don't want to limit free speech but what these people are doing is disgusting. If these people can go to a funeral and say all the terrible shit they are, why can't you call someone a fag and queer on the street? Because it's harassment plain and simple. I would've snapped if i was that guy. if those assholes did that to me i think i would lose it and i won't blame someone when they do.
if you truly defend free speech you will defend these wackos' right to say what they will, even their rallying at a funeral.
the second you open up the gate to silencing them, you open it for other things as well, things like dissent.
I don't buy the slippery-slope argument in this case. I would consider this obscene behavior. If a key member of Al Qaeda was killed and the Islamic version of this group did the same thing, I would consider in obscene and very disrespectful to those that are grieving a loss. One of the problems with this group is that several of the members actually have law degrees so they know exactly how to walk the fine line.
But sooner or later, someone is going to end up dead. It's only a matter of time before a family member or former teammate takes matters into their own hands. I'm just surprised it hasn't happened yet. It's sorta like messing with sasquatch.
there's no "slippery slope" gray area here.
either you support free speech or you don't.
This isn't free speech in my opinion. It's free douche-baggery and harassment and for some reason we allow it to go on and on.
I don't know why we continue to lie to ourselves over free speech. We already have restrictions on free speech. I can't scream curse words on live television without repercussions. I can't go into a courtroom, library, funeral home, etc and just start screaming the word "fuck" over and over without repercussions. So why is it OK for me to stand on a sidewalk just outside the same establishments with a giant megaphone and get away with it? To me, it is pure non-sense.
But I agree that with the current "oh well, what are you gonna do?" attitude that the nation has embraced, the patriot riders are the only way to deal with these folks.
if you truly defend free speech you will defend these wackos' right to say what they will, even their rallying at a funeral.
the second you open up the gate to silencing them, you open it for other things as well, things like dissent.
Where does the line between free speech and insulting behaviour begin?
Noboday should have the right to do what these whackos did at the funeral.
I can stand with a generic sign anywhere. It is when the speech is directed at a particular person that it can become harrassment. At least in my eyes
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
There's a good article on this issue in Time I think this week. There's also something about free speech in what's considered a private place (that's not the right legal expression, I'm a moron with legal stuff), but a funeral I think is private. Obviously not on the public street across from the church. But a cemetery? Maybe?
I don't know where the Westboro freaks get their money. They're not really a church, they're not really Baptists. If you can stand it, check out the godhatesfags site. This is from the site, my favorite is the last one.
Numbers
5,730 - soldiers that God has killed in Iraq and Afghanistan.
44,238 - pickets conducted by WBC.
792 - cities that have been visited by WBC.
1005 - weeks that WBC has held daily pickets on the mean streets of doomed america.
154 - people whom God has cast into hell since you loaded this page.
218,400,000+ - gallons of oil that God poured in the Gulf.
$13.5 trillion+ - national debt of doomed america.
8 - people that God saved in the flood.
16,000,000,000 - people that God killed in the flood.
144,000 - Jews that will be saved in these last days.
0 - nanoseconds of sleep that WBC members lose over your opinions and feeeeellllliiiiiings.
These people do not represent the teachings of Jesus or Christians at large.
...
I agree that they are a small minority of Christians, but Fred Phelps represents a fundamentalist wing of Christianity. Like it or not, they are Christians. Christians that you may not agree with in their interpretation of the same Bible, but, Christians, nonetheless. Just as the Taliban and their fundamentalist interpretation of the Quran. Phelps looks to seek Christian Shi-ia Law in America.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I can stand with a generic sign anywhere. It is when the speech is directed at a particular person that it can become harrassment. At least in my eyes
Yeah but what if you had a sign that is directed at the president or an inmate about to be put to death or a sexual predator living next door?
...
That was going to by my point... if that is the case, the Tea Party with their sign can be accused of harrassment of President Obama.
When the tea party shows up with signs and megaphones at Obama's funeral while his family and friends are grieving , then we can make the comparison.
There is a huge difference between waving a sign around on the steps of capital hall and waving one around at a cemetery. If we, as civil human beings, can't distinguish the difference, then there is still much work to do.
When the tea party shows up with signs and megaphones at Obama's funeral while his family and friends are grieving , then we can make the comparison.
There is a huge difference between waving a sign around on the steps of capital hall and waving one around at a cemetery. If we, as civil human beings, can't distinguish the difference, then there is still much work to do.
...
Yes... but can't both fall under the vague veil of 'Harrassment'? In other words, you have to make very careful decisions when treading around Constitutional Rights of the people.
Which is why I compared Phelps' action with flag burning. You cannot outlaw flag burning... but you can outlaw open fires.
Maybe cities should draft laws the place noise restrictions near cemetarys... just as cities have banned open flame fires in public.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I can stand with a generic sign anywhere. It is when the speech is directed at a particular person that it can become harrassment. At least in my eyes
Yeah but what if you had a sign that is directed at the president or an inmate about to be put to death or a sexual predator living next door?
Obama is a Public Figure, different rules apply.
As far as harassing a sex offender, you can be arrested for that, just like if you were harassing any other private citizen specifically.
not sure about an inmate, but it may fall into public figure and it may fall into harassment depending on what is in the sign. but my guess would be that it can be argued that they are public figures because of the high profile nature of their case.
My point is more along the lines of, if you do it, you are free to do it, but I definitley think you should be held liable for the damages it causes. That is what the court system is for. I think Freedom of speech is being wrongly applied here. I believe you can make a distinction between Harassment and Protest, both legally and simple common sense.
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
lets just cut to the chase and kick their ass's...they need it bad !
Godfather.
Yep let's cut the bull. If these happy clappers turned up at our relatives funerals the baseball bats would be primed. :evil:
...
But.... that is exactly what they WANT... so they can play the 'Persecuted Christian Victims' role. They are basking in the notoriety and love all of the attension we are paying to them. You become the violent aggressor and you will be charged with assault and battery. Remember, these are Christian Fundamentalist we are dealing with and they would savor physical punishment... to make them feel closer to Jesus by enduring the physical pain He did. They would call themsleves martyrs.
The best thing to do is either ignore them or make fun of them. How about gathering the local High School band to stand in front of them and play John Phillip Souza songs? Or do as the father is doing... sueing them for harrassment.
A free society is not free of hazzards... and assholes.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
lets just cut to the chase and kick their ass's...they need it bad !
Godfather.
Yep let's cut the bull. If these happy clappers turned up at our relatives funerals the baseball bats would be primed. :evil:
...
But.... that is exactly what they WANT... so they can play the 'Persecuted Christian Victims' role. They are basking in the notoriety and love all of the attension we are paying to them. You become the violent aggressor and you will be charged with assault and battery. Remember, these are Christian Fundamentalist we are dealing with and they would savor physical punishment... to make them feel closer to Jesus by enduring the physical pain He did. They would call themsleves martyrs.
The best thing to do is either ignore them or make fun of them. How about gathering the local High School band to stand in front of them and play John Phillip Souza songs? Or do as the father is doing... sueing them for harrassment.
A free society is not free of hazzards... and assholes.
I know it's what they want... But if I could take a Louisville Slugger to anybody on the planet, I think Fred Phelps would be it...
Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
this is one issue that is very black and white. because the second you open the door for the authorities to limit what we can say or where we can say it, they will walk through it. see germany and the rise of the nazi's, and what that led to. you allow them to decide where or what we can say now, 10 years or 20 years down the road who knows what we will be allowed to say, or what they will do without dissenting opinions keeping everybody sane.
not to mention the people are sorting this one out themselves. someone mentioned hundreds of bikers blocking these whackos, that's a solution that doesn't requite a change in law, does not require the authorities. and it's about time people stopped whining to the government, giving up freedom for a little comfort.
the people can sort this one out themselves, seem to be doing a good job so far.
and for those suggesting this isn't a free speech issue...what is the solution? you would have the government restrict what people can say, where they can say it, looks to be a pretty clear case of free speech to me.
I can stand with a generic sign anywhere. It is when the speech is directed at a particular person that it can become harrassment. At least in my eyes
Yeah but what if you had a sign that is directed at the president or an inmate about to be put to death or a sexual predator living next door?
Obama is a Public Figure, different rules apply.
As far as harassing a sex offender, you can be arrested for that, just like if you were harassing any other private citizen specifically.
not sure about an inmate, but it may fall into public figure and it may fall into harassment depending on what is in the sign. but my guess would be that it can be argued that they are public figures because of the high profile nature of their case.
My point is more along the lines of, if you do it, you are free to do it, but I definitley think you should be held liable for the damages it causes. That is what the court system is for. I think Freedom of speech is being wrongly applied here. I believe you can make a distinction between Harassment and Protest, both legally and simple common sense.
I wasn't aware "freedom of speech" had those rules.
the people can sort this one out themselves, seem to be doing a good job so far.
If anything, that is one thing we can agree on. The riders have been surprisingly low-key in their mission and have avoided becoming a media spectacle. They provide an emotional barrier between the hate and the love and so far it has worked.
The most distressing thing to me is that I think that the Phelps clan believes they are not as infamous as they think they should be at this point. When you think about it, the only way to defeat them is to ignore them. Even if they get bankrupted, I think their messed-up willpower will allow them to forge ahead in their mission of hate. As long as the riders maintain discipline and respect, hopefully this will just be a side note in the pages of history.
lets just cut to the chase and kick their ass's...they need it bad !
Godfather.
Yep let's cut the bull. If these happy clappers turned up at our relatives funerals the baseball bats would be primed. :evil:
...
But.... that is exactly what they WANT... so they can play the 'Persecuted Christian Victims' role. They are basking in the notoriety and love all of the attension we are paying to them. You become the violent aggressor and you will be charged with assault and battery. Remember, these are Christian Fundamentalist we are dealing with and they would savor physical punishment... to make them feel closer to Jesus by enduring the physical pain He did. They would call themsleves martyrs.
The best thing to do is either ignore them or make fun of them. How about gathering the local High School band to stand in front of them and play John Phillip Souza songs? Or do as the father is doing... sueing them for harrassment.
A free society is not free of hazzards... and assholes.
Cosmo, I don't always agree with you, but I dig your thought process. Have a nice weekend :wave:
the people can sort this one out themselves, seem to be doing a good job so far.
If anything, that is one thing we can agree on. The riders have been surprisingly low-key in their mission and have avoided becoming a media spectacle. They provide an emotional barrier between the hate and the love and so far it has worked.
The most distressing thing to me is that I think that the Phelps clan believes they are not as infamous as they think they should be at this point. When you think about it, the only way to defeat them is to ignore them. Even if they get bankrupted, I think their messed-up willpower will allow them to forge ahead in their mission of hate. As long as the riders maintain discipline and respect, hopefully this will just be a side note in the pages of history.
lets just cut to the chase and kick their ass's...they need it bad !
Godfather.
Yep let's cut the bull. If these happy clappers turned up at our relatives funerals the baseball bats would be primed. :evil:
...
But.... that is exactly what they WANT... so they can play the 'Persecuted Christian Victims' role. They are basking in the notoriety and love all of the attension we are paying to them. You become the violent aggressor and you will be charged with assault and battery. Remember, these are Christian Fundamentalist we are dealing with and they would savor physical punishment... to make them feel closer to Jesus by enduring the physical pain He did. They would call themsleves martyrs.
The best thing to do is either ignore them or make fun of them. How about gathering the local High School band to stand in front of them and play John Phillip Souza songs? Or do as the father is doing... sueing them for harrassment.
A free society is not free of hazzards... and assholes.
Cosmo ....You're right, sometimes logical thinking is not always the first idea and instant gratification comes to mind first using their own game against them would be the best idea"think as they would think and wait for an opening of their greatest weakness" then react(attack) legally and accordingly.
I think Lady Gaga said the same sort of deal, 'pay them no mind'...
Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
I've always been a bit confused when people advocate absolute freedom of speech considering such a right should certainly include slander, inciting violence against others and harassment. If we're going to include freedom of expression under that umbrella shouldn't I have the right to arbitraily injure or outright kill whoever I want? Limiting any of these actions is certianly a restriction on my right to express myself freely.
Honestly, I would like to know why I shouldn't be able to cry "FIRE" in a crowded theater. Surely any civil or criminal prosucution against me would be in direct violation of my right to speak freely. In a society with absolute freedom of speech why would I be punished for saying anything?
I've always been a bit confused when people advocate absolute freedom of speech considering such a right should certainly include slander, inciting violence against others and harassment. If we're going to include freedom of expression under that umbrella shouldn't I have the right to arbitraily injure or outright kill whoever I want? Limiting any of these actions is certianly a restriction on my right to express myself freely.
Honestly, I would like to know why I shouldn't be able to cry "FIRE" in a crowded theater. Surely any civil or criminal prosucution against me would be in direct violation of my right to speak freely. In a society with absolute freedom of speech why would I be punished for saying anything?
We're not agreeing with the WBC... we're just saying if it is a freedom of speech matter its dangerous to take it to court. Because then people can start drawing lines on what is "acceptable" free speech and what isn't.
Comments
right on.
The point here is, and should be, harassment. Picketing funerals and yelling in griever's faces about how their sinful ways were to blame for this and so forth, is harassment. Nail the fuckers on that. Not for their digusting opinions, but for intruding and harassing private gatherings. It's a free country, but unreasonably interfering with people's lives actually isn't a right. Restraining orders are dealt out regularly, are they not?
So, he can say what he want, but picketing funerals, slam his ass with emotional damage fines at the max.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
That is exactly correct.
Flag burning, for example. It is a form of free speech. But... an open fire in a public place is not. So, many cities have written laws prohibiting open fires in public settings. This way, the person burning the flag (or a cross or an efigy or a draft card or a bra) in an open fire can be arrested and charged on that offense.
Restrict the tactics used by Rev. Phelps' minions by restricting public harrassment, disturbing the peace or other statutes. Perhaps, drafting local legislation that limits noise levels within a certain distance of a cemetary or something. But, it must be done at the local or State, not the Federal level.
Hail, Hail!!!
Godfather.
I'll restate that the key is not to outlaw the talk, but rather the method of graveyard picketers. That's where the line is drawn.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
I don't know why we continue to lie to ourselves over free speech. We already have restrictions on free speech. I can't scream curse words on live television without repercussions. I can't go into a courtroom, library, funeral home, etc and just start screaming the word "fuck" over and over without repercussions. So why is it OK for me to stand on a sidewalk just outside the same establishments with a giant megaphone and get away with it? To me, it is pure non-sense.
But I agree that with the current "oh well, what are you gonna do?" attitude that the nation has embraced, the patriot riders are the only way to deal with these folks.
Noboday should have the right to do what these whackos did at the funeral.
I can stand with a generic sign anywhere. It is when the speech is directed at a particular person that it can become harrassment. At least in my eyes
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
I don't know where the Westboro freaks get their money. They're not really a church, they're not really Baptists. If you can stand it, check out the godhatesfags site. This is from the site, my favorite is the last one.
Numbers
5,730 - soldiers that God has killed in Iraq and Afghanistan.
44,238 - pickets conducted by WBC.
792 - cities that have been visited by WBC.
1005 - weeks that WBC has held daily pickets on the mean streets of doomed america.
154 - people whom God has cast into hell since you loaded this page.
218,400,000+ - gallons of oil that God poured in the Gulf.
$13.5 trillion+ - national debt of doomed america.
8 - people that God saved in the flood.
16,000,000,000 - people that God killed in the flood.
144,000 - Jews that will be saved in these last days.
0 - nanoseconds of sleep that WBC members lose over your opinions and feeeeellllliiiiiings.
I agree that they are a small minority of Christians, but Fred Phelps represents a fundamentalist wing of Christianity. Like it or not, they are Christians. Christians that you may not agree with in their interpretation of the same Bible, but, Christians, nonetheless. Just as the Taliban and their fundamentalist interpretation of the Quran. Phelps looks to seek Christian Shi-ia Law in America.
Hail, Hail!!!
That was going to by my point... if that is the case, the Tea Party with their sign can be accused of harrassment of President Obama.
Hail, Hail!!!
There is a huge difference between waving a sign around on the steps of capital hall and waving one around at a cemetery. If we, as civil human beings, can't distinguish the difference, then there is still much work to do.
Yes... but can't both fall under the vague veil of 'Harrassment'? In other words, you have to make very careful decisions when treading around Constitutional Rights of the people.
Which is why I compared Phelps' action with flag burning. You cannot outlaw flag burning... but you can outlaw open fires.
Maybe cities should draft laws the place noise restrictions near cemetarys... just as cities have banned open flame fires in public.
Hail, Hail!!!
Godfather.
Obama is a Public Figure, different rules apply.
As far as harassing a sex offender, you can be arrested for that, just like if you were harassing any other private citizen specifically.
not sure about an inmate, but it may fall into public figure and it may fall into harassment depending on what is in the sign. but my guess would be that it can be argued that they are public figures because of the high profile nature of their case.
My point is more along the lines of, if you do it, you are free to do it, but I definitley think you should be held liable for the damages it causes. That is what the court system is for. I think Freedom of speech is being wrongly applied here. I believe you can make a distinction between Harassment and Protest, both legally and simple common sense.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
But.... that is exactly what they WANT... so they can play the 'Persecuted Christian Victims' role. They are basking in the notoriety and love all of the attension we are paying to them. You become the violent aggressor and you will be charged with assault and battery. Remember, these are Christian Fundamentalist we are dealing with and they would savor physical punishment... to make them feel closer to Jesus by enduring the physical pain He did. They would call themsleves martyrs.
The best thing to do is either ignore them or make fun of them. How about gathering the local High School band to stand in front of them and play John Phillip Souza songs? Or do as the father is doing... sueing them for harrassment.
A free society is not free of hazzards... and assholes.
Hail, Hail!!!
I know it's what they want... But if I could take a Louisville Slugger to anybody on the planet, I think Fred Phelps would be it...
not to mention the people are sorting this one out themselves. someone mentioned hundreds of bikers blocking these whackos, that's a solution that doesn't requite a change in law, does not require the authorities. and it's about time people stopped whining to the government, giving up freedom for a little comfort.
the people can sort this one out themselves, seem to be doing a good job so far.
and for those suggesting this isn't a free speech issue...what is the solution? you would have the government restrict what people can say, where they can say it, looks to be a pretty clear case of free speech to me.
The most distressing thing to me is that I think that the Phelps clan believes they are not as infamous as they think they should be at this point. When you think about it, the only way to defeat them is to ignore them. Even if they get bankrupted, I think their messed-up willpower will allow them to forge ahead in their mission of hate. As long as the riders maintain discipline and respect, hopefully this will just be a side note in the pages of history.
i agree with you on this.
ignoring them would go a long way.
Cosmo ....You're right, sometimes logical thinking is not always the first idea and instant gratification comes to mind first
Godfather.
Honestly, I would like to know why I shouldn't be able to cry "FIRE" in a crowded theater. Surely any civil or criminal prosucution against me would be in direct violation of my right to speak freely. In a society with absolute freedom of speech why would I be punished for saying anything?