Does anyone have any idea how many Americans have went AWOL into the great white north? My wild guess would be around 100.
Your wild guess is fairly close, I've heard the number 200 thrown around at the talks I have attended.
Clearly the Canadian government is worried about the precedent this would set going forward. I use the reference "Canadian government" loosely as I don't believe they are acting as a sovereign nation.
again I would stand by my signiture, my word
thats what I would do.
cause to me it means somthing
yeah you allsay it dosnt . but thats sad that you cannot take a person by their word, by their signiture, by their commitment
What is sad about these comments is that it is unfortunate that the country in question (the US) does not have this commitment to their soldiers.
It has been documented numerous times that the US gov't is avoiding treating soldier ailments (in particular mental health). The suicide rate for US Military personnel has been climbing month by month, last article I read it was up to 1,100. US vets are not receiving any assistance with reintegrating into society which is clearly seen by the surge of homelessness amongst this group.
Regardless of what has been signed, I would choose based on my beliefs and convictions... I would leave my country and face the threat of incarceration vs. the likely outcomes listed above and the mental anguish of participating in an illegal war.
you sign on the line to follw orders.
what??? do you join for the retirement pension.
for the goood holidays
a lot of people join for the health care. i can attest to that fact since about 37% of our patient load are active duty or retired military that use one of the forms of tricare, the military insurance. and we get 95% of all of the pediatric orthopedic referrals from the air force base that is nearby since they have no peds clinic there anymore.
this is anecdotal, but some of those i have gotten to know either had no options out of high school, or gotten married or had kids at a very young age and they needed a stable job to support that family. they did not think they would be dropping bombs on the heads of innocent people in iraq...
same boat as me . I did join for the coin, I was unemployed . couldnt get a job.
regardless I stand behind my name my sig
I thought they signed up to defend America? Therefore, when a bunch of crooks like the Bush Administration decide to invade Iraq, how does that constitute defending America? People in the armed forces are perfectly right to go awol when the U.S government has been hijacked by a bunch of gangsters.[/quote]
blame those who sent them
Not those sent
What is sad about these comments is that it is unfortunate that the country in question (the US) does not have this commitment to their soldiers.
It has been documented numerous times that the US gov't is avoiding treating soldier ailments (in particular mental health). The suicide rate for US Military personnel has been climbing month by month, last article I read it was up to 1,100. US vets are not receiving any assistance with reintegrating into society which is clearly seen by the surge of homelessness amongst this group.
In your workplace do you have the right to choose what jobs you do???
or are you told what needs to be done
i help people every day at my job. i like it. sure there are some things that i get bored with or tired of, but there is nothing that i am patently opposed to, as in no i am not charged with the task of carrying a gun and shooting at people...
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
you sign on the line to follw orders.
what??? do you join for the retirement pension.
for the goood holidays
a lot of people join for the health care. i can attest to that fact since about 37% of our patient load are active duty or retired military that use one of the forms of tricare, the military insurance. and we get 95% of all of the pediatric orthopedic referrals from the air force base that is nearby since they have no peds clinic there anymore.
this is anecdotal, but some of those i have gotten to know either had no options out of high school, or gotten married or had kids at a very young age and they needed a stable job to support that family. they did not think they would be dropping bombs on the heads of innocent people in iraq...
same boat as me . I did join for the coin, I was unemployed . couldnt get a job.
regardless I stand behind my name my sig
fair enough. stand by your sig...i will never put myself in the position to have to sign my name and commit to killing in the name of my country, its leaders, or the military industrial complex that pulls the strings...to my mind there are things that i believe in my soul that are absolutely unshakeable and will never be changed...like war and murder is wrong under all circumstances, and those that oppose it very deeply should be able to find sanctuary somewhere, even if it is in another country. i applaud canada for being one of those places.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
same boat as me . I did join for the coin, I was unemployed . couldnt get a job.
regardless I stand behind my name my sig
Why do you keep pretending that as soon as anyone enlists they have to do whatever they're told? If your superior ordered you to massacre a bunch of women and children would you do it?
If your leaders engage in a criminal war of occupation then you have every right to refuse to participate. Joining the military does not mean that you sign away your conscience, your morals, and your backbone.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_O ... nd_against
This "Superior Orders" defense is still used with the following rationale in the following scenario: An "order" may come from one's superior at the level of national law. But according to Nuremberg Principle IV, such an order is sometimes "unlawful" according to international law. Such an "unlawful order" presents a legal dilemma from which there is no legal escape: On one hand, a person who refuses such an unlawful order faces the possibility of legal punishment at the national level for refusing orders. On the other hand, a person who accepts such an unlawful order faces the possibility of legal punishment at the international level (e.g. Nuremberg Trials) for committing unlawful acts. Therefore this is a Catch-22 legal dilemma.
Nuremberg Principle II responds to that dilemma by stating: "The fact that internal law does not impose a penalty for an act which constitutes a crime under international law does not relieve the person who committed the act from responsibility under international law."[29]
The above scenario might present a legal dilemma, but Nuremberg Principle IV speaks of "a moral choice" as being just as important as "legal" decisions: It states: "The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him".
In "moral choices" or ethical dilemmas an ethical decision is often made by appealing to a "higher ethic" such as ethics in religion or secular ethics. One such "higher ethic," which is found in many religions and also in secular ethics, is the "ethic of reciprocity," or the Golden Rule. It states that one has a right to just treatment, and therefore has a reciprocal responsibility to ensure justice for others. "Higher ethics," such as those, could be used by an individual to solve the legal dilemma presented by the "Superior Orders" defense.
my whole piont is that if you enlist you sign to follow orders, you are also educated in the rules of war. Now I know the US has ignored a few of those ie water boarding etc.but here in OZ its somthing we beleive in and have many lessons in this area. SO our miltary does instruct and support MORALS
today a soldier came out damming his top brass in afganistan,
heres the link to the militarys response http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/d ... 5927386825
this guy didnt run away he didnt hide. he told his story.
my whole piont is that if you enlist you sign to follow orders, you are also educated in the rules of war. Now I know the US has ignored a few of those ie water boarding etc.but here in OZ its somthing we beleive in and have many lessons in this area. SO our miltary does instruct and support MORALS
today a soldier came out damming his top brass in afganistan,
heres the link to the militarys response http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/d ... 5927386825
this guy didnt run away he didnt hide. he told his story.
Though couldn't it be argued that if the war itself is immoral and illegal then they have every right to refuse? The U.S has no right to be in Iraq or Afghanistan. They're not defending America or American citizens by being in these countries, they're just fighting to bolster the bank balances of the fat cats at companies like Halliburton. Nothing to do with defending America. Defence contractors are another thing altogether - basically merceneries for corporations and gangsters. Although maybe the difference between a military man and a mercenery isn't so great anymore.
Though I suppose the bottom line is that they shouldn't enlist in the first place. They're only gonna be fighting and killing on behalf of a bunch of crooks anyway.
'Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity'.
I don't have a problem with soldiers running to Canada or any other country if they are can't cut it. They could be a safety risk to their unit. It is a pretty serious decision as you will never be allowed to return to your home and friends unless a pardon is issued . . . if someone is ready to accept this burden, so be it.
I don't have a problem with soldiers running to Canada or any other country if they are can't cut it. They could be a safety risk to their unit. It is a pretty serious decision as you will never be allowed to return to your home and friends unless a pardon is issued . . . if someone is ready to accept this burden, so be it.
uhhh ... why won't you take these war-resistors for their word instead of trying to portray them as pansies?
I don't have a problem with soldiers running to Canada or any other country if they are can't cut it. They could be a safety risk to their unit. It is a pretty serious decision as you will never be allowed to return to your home and friends unless a pardon is issued . . . if someone is ready to accept this burden, so be it.
uhhh ... why won't you take these war-resistors for their word instead of trying to portray them as pansies?
I didn't imply they are pansies. Some people drop out of college because they can't cut it . . . not because they are pansies.
I didn't imply they are pansies. Some people drop out of college because they can't cut it . . . not because they are pansies.
i am equating "can't cut it" to "pansies" ... either way tho - these war resistors are resisting not because they can't cut it ... it's because they don't believe in the morality of the mission and they are seeking refuge from a system that is ordering them without question to do things they are morally opposed to ...
I didn't imply they are pansies. Some people drop out of college because they can't cut it . . . not because they are pansies.
i am equating "can't cut it" to "pansies" ... either way tho - these war resistors are resisting not because they can't cut it ... it's because they don't believe in the morality of the mission and they are seeking refuge from a system that is ordering them without question to do things they are morally opposed to ...
Lots of the military personnel have probably deeply regretted signing up to a four year commitment. Current military members should not be surprised they will be fighting wars (I don't think any current military member is under a commitment signed prior to 2001) but it is probably a huge dose of reality once the fighting actually starts and the combatant realizes it is much different from the movies and games.
I just hope that each war resister does a better job of weighing the decision to go AWOL much more diligently then when they signed up in the first place. If they have, then so be it.
Send the cowards back to face judgement
yes I said cowards
thats what they are for deserting their post
no backbone to do as they signed on for
no backbone to fix the very things they are against
run and hide under a rock in canada COWARDS
I know I will get abused . but in my book thats what they are.
YOUR country voted the moron back in didnt they after he started his ileagle war for the corperations.
so it was the countries will
Send the cowards back to face judgement
yes I said cowards
thats what they are for deserting their post
no backbone to do as they signed on for
no backbone to fix the very things they are against
run and hide under a rock in canada COWARDS
I know I will get abused . but in my book thats what they are.
YOUR country voted the moron back in didnt they after he started his ileagle war for the corperations.
so it was the countries will
the majority voted for Gore, Bush stole his re-election.
cowards follow unlawful orders.
cowards don't stand up to injustice.
cowards ask how high when told to jump.
refusing to serve the most powerful military machine on the planet....that takes balls.
coward dont run
cowards dont hide
heroes do and can refuse orders. I refused orders in my time in the service, I certainly didnt run. I was initialy charged and had it overturned at tribunal.( not that it made me a heroe, but I aint standing for stupid orders from stupid NCO's)
heroes stand and fight for injustice wherever and whenever it happened
they certainly dont hide in canada
BUSH was voted president by the american people, your opnion that it was stolen is just an opinion, If i read history it will state he won, the american people chose to keep him for another 4 years.
coward dont run
cowards dont hide
heroes do and can refuse orders. I refused orders in my time in the service, I certainly didnt run. I was initialy charged and had it overturned at tribunal.( not that it made me a heroe, but I aint standing for stupid orders from stupid NCO's)
heroes stand and fight for injustice wherever and whenever it happened
they certainly dont hide in canada
BUSH was voted president by the american people, your opnion that it was stolen is just an opinion, If i read history it will state he won, the american people chose to keep him for another 4 years.
true about keeping bush for four years;...but people refusing to kill innocent people should have a place to go.
that's what this is about...people refusing to murder needing a place to go.
if you refuse to serve an order that could kill innocent ppl...one way to rebel is to go awol.....and leave the jurisdiction of your military machine. as an american, that may involve slipping into canada.
that's standing up for human rights on a full scale.. that's honorable. that is what should be hapeneing on a scale counted in the millions. i believe it will get that big, when the war gets that big/.
a place to say no to murder/....we shoul have a [place where people can go and say no to murder./
right now its canada, as it should be.
these are true heroes of war, refusing to fire on innocents.and canada is their sanctuary
Comments
Your wild guess is fairly close, I've heard the number 200 thrown around at the talks I have attended.
Clearly the Canadian government is worried about the precedent this would set going forward. I use the reference "Canadian government" loosely as I don't believe they are acting as a sovereign nation.
Man where is our Trudeau?
"its the American in me says its an honor to die in a war that's just a politician's lie..."
What is sad about these comments is that it is unfortunate that the country in question (the US) does not have this commitment to their soldiers.
It has been documented numerous times that the US gov't is avoiding treating soldier ailments (in particular mental health). The suicide rate for US Military personnel has been climbing month by month, last article I read it was up to 1,100. US vets are not receiving any assistance with reintegrating into society which is clearly seen by the surge of homelessness amongst this group.
Regardless of what has been signed, I would choose based on my beliefs and convictions... I would leave my country and face the threat of incarceration vs. the likely outcomes listed above and the mental anguish of participating in an illegal war.
regardless I stand behind my name my sig
blame those who sent them
Not those sent
It has been documented numerous times that the US gov't is avoiding treating soldier ailments (in particular mental health). The suicide rate for US Military personnel has been climbing month by month, last article I read it was up to 1,100. US vets are not receiving any assistance with reintegrating into society which is clearly seen by the surge of homelessness amongst this group.
your very right there They deserve so much more
or are you told what needs to be done
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Why do you keep pretending that as soon as anyone enlists they have to do whatever they're told? If your superior ordered you to massacre a bunch of women and children would you do it?
If your leaders engage in a criminal war of occupation then you have every right to refuse to participate. Joining the military does not mean that you sign away your conscience, your morals, and your backbone.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_O ... nd_against
This "Superior Orders" defense is still used with the following rationale in the following scenario: An "order" may come from one's superior at the level of national law. But according to Nuremberg Principle IV, such an order is sometimes "unlawful" according to international law. Such an "unlawful order" presents a legal dilemma from which there is no legal escape: On one hand, a person who refuses such an unlawful order faces the possibility of legal punishment at the national level for refusing orders. On the other hand, a person who accepts such an unlawful order faces the possibility of legal punishment at the international level (e.g. Nuremberg Trials) for committing unlawful acts. Therefore this is a Catch-22 legal dilemma.
Nuremberg Principle II responds to that dilemma by stating: "The fact that internal law does not impose a penalty for an act which constitutes a crime under international law does not relieve the person who committed the act from responsibility under international law."[29]
The above scenario might present a legal dilemma, but Nuremberg Principle IV speaks of "a moral choice" as being just as important as "legal" decisions: It states: "The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him".
In "moral choices" or ethical dilemmas an ethical decision is often made by appealing to a "higher ethic" such as ethics in religion or secular ethics. One such "higher ethic," which is found in many religions and also in secular ethics, is the "ethic of reciprocity," or the Golden Rule. It states that one has a right to just treatment, and therefore has a reciprocal responsibility to ensure justice for others. "Higher ethics," such as those, could be used by an individual to solve the legal dilemma presented by the "Superior Orders" defense.
today a soldier came out damming his top brass in afganistan,
heres the link to the militarys response
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/d ... 5927386825
this guy didnt run away he didnt hide. he told his story.
Though couldn't it be argued that if the war itself is immoral and illegal then they have every right to refuse? The U.S has no right to be in Iraq or Afghanistan. They're not defending America or American citizens by being in these countries, they're just fighting to bolster the bank balances of the fat cats at companies like Halliburton. Nothing to do with defending America. Defence contractors are another thing altogether - basically merceneries for corporations and gangsters. Although maybe the difference between a military man and a mercenery isn't so great anymore.
Though I suppose the bottom line is that they shouldn't enlist in the first place. They're only gonna be fighting and killing on behalf of a bunch of crooks anyway.
'Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity'.
uhhh ... why won't you take these war-resistors for their word instead of trying to portray them as pansies?
i am equating "can't cut it" to "pansies" ... either way tho - these war resistors are resisting not because they can't cut it ... it's because they don't believe in the morality of the mission and they are seeking refuge from a system that is ordering them without question to do things they are morally opposed to ...
I just hope that each war resister does a better job of weighing the decision to go AWOL much more diligently then when they signed up in the first place. If they have, then so be it.
http://www.sirnosir.com/
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 418913071#
Torrent: http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/3582240 ... .XviD-FiCO
Here's a link to the bulk email page I found thru your links if anyone else wants to send the email:
http://letthemstay.ca/action/email-your-mp/
yes I said cowards
thats what they are for deserting their post
no backbone to do as they signed on for
no backbone to fix the very things they are against
run and hide under a rock in canada COWARDS
I know I will get abused . but in my book thats what they are.
YOUR country voted the moron back in didnt they after he started his ileagle war for the corperations.
so it was the countries will
cowards follow unlawful orders.
cowards don't stand up to injustice.
cowards ask how high when told to jump.
refusing to serve the most powerful military machine on the planet....that takes balls.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
cowards dont hide
heroes do and can refuse orders. I refused orders in my time in the service, I certainly didnt run. I was initialy charged and had it overturned at tribunal.( not that it made me a heroe, but I aint standing for stupid orders from stupid NCO's)
heroes stand and fight for injustice wherever and whenever it happened
they certainly dont hide in canada
BUSH was voted president by the american people, your opnion that it was stolen is just an opinion, If i read history it will state he won, the american people chose to keep him for another 4 years.
that's what this is about...people refusing to murder needing a place to go.
if you refuse to serve an order that could kill innocent ppl...one way to rebel is to go awol.....and leave the jurisdiction of your military machine. as an american, that may involve slipping into canada.
that's standing up for human rights on a full scale.. that's honorable. that is what should be hapeneing on a scale counted in the millions. i believe it will get that big, when the war gets that big/.
a place to say no to murder/....we shoul have a [place where people can go and say no to murder./
right now its canada, as it should be.
these are true heroes of war, refusing to fire on innocents.and canada is their sanctuary
go to canada en masse, in cananada you will find an end to the war.
lay down your guns uin canada. you wil ihave imunity.
the war will be over for you once you reach canada.
lay down you arms.
A lot of the resisters have fought against injustice. They've fought the injustice of the Iraq war by being vocal about their beliefs and actions.
Cowards kill women and children, not heroes.
It's not possible to fight injustice when you're incarcerated.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."