More Canadian politics - Tamil trapped in boat of coast

haffajappa

fife wrote:

haffajappa wrote:

My boyfriend came here as a refugee, i only found that out a couple months ago... i had no idea

congrats, where from?

Guatemala
He was pretty young.
We both came to the country when we were babies... Only my mom is Canadian so that helps and it also helps I came from a rich country lol

fife

haffajappa wrote:

fife wrote:

haffajappa wrote:

My boyfriend came here as a refugee, i only found that out a couple months ago... i had no idea

congrats, where from?

Guatemala
He was pretty young.
We both came to the country when we were babies... Only my mom is Canadian so that helps and it also helps I came from a rich country lol

yes having a parent born in Canada does help. I don't think you had to apply for anything then right as you have one parent originally from here. or did she have to sponsor you. i actually don't know that.

haffajappa

fife wrote:

haffajappa wrote:

fife wrote:

congrats, where from?

Guatemala
He was pretty young.
We both came to the country when we were babies... Only my mom is Canadian so that helps and it also helps I came from a rich country lol

yes having a parent born in Canada does help. I don't think you had to apply for anything then right as you have one parent originally from here. or did she have to sponsor you. i actually don't know that.

Nah, its easy as pie for me and my brother.
I wasn't a refugee or anything. The only sucky thing for us is that in Japan they don't allow you to have dual citizenship, so we techincally can't have our Japanese passports anymore.

As for my father, however, he would have to be sponsored.
I believe you have to sponsor for 3 years before you are not responsible for them anymore. Until then if they decide to leave you while in the country you still gotta pay for all their expenses and everything.

My father is still a permanent resident - by choice - as he doesn't want to relinquish his Japanese citizenship.
And really the only difference I think is that he cannot vote... which he isn't fussed, he's happy living in a beach town making sushi for happy island folk.

Drowned Out

fife wrote:

what you got wrong is that these people are not immigrants they are refugee claimants. an immigrant has somewhat a more secure status in canada. i.e. harder to deport.

Ok, now im confused....where did I say they were imigrants? I was comparing in order to show that landed immigrant = lineup....refugee = show up and ask to stay....at least I was trying to

sourdough09

A couple of things...

1) Ordinarily, you don't file for refugee status prior to arrival. Refugees are (generally) fleeing from war, conflict or persecution and is not a process where you can leisurely plan your course.

2) The navy can't just turn boats away. International law dictates that those seeking refugee status are guaranteed the rights to shelter and proper process before judgement is made as to the legitimacy of their claims. To turn boats away (Thailand just turned away boats of refugees fleeing from Burma) is a violation of international law and in many cases may be condemning legitimate refugees to death or torture IF they are able to return. In many cases, these boats are unable to return and many die at sea.

3) As pointed out... even if fees were paid to traffickers, that does not necessarily null and void the fact that they may be a refugee. You could be a middle class or wealthy individual through honest means, but if a war breaks out at home, or if a tyrannical government decides to take you or your people out and you can afford to pay what you need to for the safety of your family, you are still a refugee.

haffajappa

sourdough09 wrote:

A couple of things...

1) Ordinarily, you don't file for refugee status prior to arrival. Refugees are (generally) fleeing from war, conflict or persecution and is not a process where you can leisurely plan your course.

2) The navy can't just turn boats away. International law dictates that those seeking refugee status are guaranteed the rights to shelter and proper process before judgement is made as to the legitimacy of their claims. To turn boats away (Thailand just turned away boats of refugees fleeing from Burma) is a violation of international law and in many cases may be condemning legitimate refugees to death or torture IF they are able to return. In many cases, these boats are unable to return and many die at sea.

3) As pointed out... even if fees were paid to traffickers, that does not necessarily null and void the fact that they may be a refugee. You could be a middle class or wealthy individual through honest means, but if a war breaks out at home, or if a tyrannical government decides to take you or your people out and you can afford to pay what you need to for the safety of your family, you are still a refugee.

Yeah...
Like I said i'm torn but I think a big issue on this one is the legitimacy of whether or not they are refugees or part of the tamil tigers

sourdough09

haffajappa wrote:

sourdough09 wrote:

A couple of things...

1) Ordinarily, you don't file for refugee status prior to arrival. Refugees are (generally) fleeing from war, conflict or persecution and is not a process where you can leisurely plan your course.

2) The navy can't just turn boats away. International law dictates that those seeking refugee status are guaranteed the rights to shelter and proper process before judgement is made as to the legitimacy of their claims. To turn boats away (Thailand just turned away boats of refugees fleeing from Burma) is a violation of international law and in many cases may be condemning legitimate refugees to death or torture IF they are able to return. In many cases, these boats are unable to return and many die at sea.

3) As pointed out... even if fees were paid to traffickers, that does not necessarily null and void the fact that they may be a refugee. You could be a middle class or wealthy individual through honest means, but if a war breaks out at home, or if a tyrannical government decides to take you or your people out and you can afford to pay what you need to for the safety of your family, you are still a refugee.

Yeah...
Like I said i'm torn but I think a big issue on this one is the legitimacy of whether or not they are refugees or part of the tamil tigers

That would be very interesting. Not sure what the Canadian official policy is towards the Tigers. They are freedom fighters to some and terrorists to others.

fife

sourdough09 wrote:

haffajappa wrote:

sourdough09 wrote:

A couple of things...

1) Ordinarily, you don't file for refugee status prior to arrival. Refugees are (generally) fleeing from war, conflict or persecution and is not a process where you can leisurely plan your course.

2) The navy can't just turn boats away. International law dictates that those seeking refugee status are guaranteed the rights to shelter and proper process before judgement is made as to the legitimacy of their claims. To turn boats away (Thailand just turned away boats of refugees fleeing from Burma) is a violation of international law and in many cases may be condemning legitimate refugees to death or torture IF they are able to return. In many cases, these boats are unable to return and many die at sea.

3) As pointed out... even if fees were paid to traffickers, that does not necessarily null and void the fact that they may be a refugee. You could be a middle class or wealthy individual through honest means, but if a war breaks out at home, or if a tyrannical government decides to take you or your people out and you can afford to pay what you need to for the safety of your family, you are still a refugee.

Yeah...
Like I said i'm torn but I think a big issue on this one is the legitimacy of whether or not they are refugees or part of the tamil tigers

That would be very interesting. Not sure what the Canadian official policy is towards the Tigers. They are freedom fighters to some and terrorists to others.

the Canadian government has stated that they believe that the Tamils tigers are a terrorist organization.

polaris_x

the subtext of this issue is the demonizing of these refugee claimants by the current gov't ... without actually having any info - they immediately went on a PR campaign of labelling these people as potential terrorists in an attempt to form or shape public opinion ...

like others have mentioned - we are bound by laws to shelter these people until they can figure out who they are ... in listening to a piece on cbc radio - it was interesting to hear tho that many of these people pass a bunch of other countries that would be in a similar position but canada is where they want to go come hell or high water ...

my personal take is that if these people are legitimate refugees who would be persecuted if sent back home and not because they actually committed a crime - we need to afford them that status however, i do feel for all the people that are trying to come to canada through legitimate means that can't because of our strict criteria (point system) ... i have two friends living in NYC that would love to move to toronto but they don't think they could meet the requirements ... they both have post-graduate degrees - she is getting her phd and he is getting his second masters degree ...

fife

In other news, in case people think i am just going against the harper government here is another great story about our more liberal friends in Ontario.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/ ... ficit.html

amazing eh!

haffajappa

polaris_x wrote:

the subtext of this issue is the demonizing of these refugee claimants by the current gov't ... without actually having any info - they immediately went on a PR campaign of labelling these people as potential terrorists in an attempt to form or shape public opinion ...

like others have mentioned - we are bound by laws to shelter these people until they can figure out who they are ... in listening to a piece on cbc radio - it was interesting to hear tho that many of these people pass a bunch of other countries that would be in a similar position but canada is where they want to go come hell or high water ...

my personal take is that if these people are legitimate refugees who would be persecuted if sent back home and not because they actually committed a crime - we need to afford them that status however, i do feel for all the people that are trying to come to canada through legitimate means that can't because of our strict criteria (point system) ... i have two friends living in NYC that would love to move to toronto but they don't think they could meet the requirements ... they both have post-graduate degrees - she is getting her phd and he is getting his second masters degree ...

they should come as refugees!

catefrances

polaris_x wrote:

the subtext of this issue is the demonizing of these refugee claimants by the current gov't ... without actually having any info - they immediately went on a PR campaign of labelling these people as potential terrorists in an attempt to form or shape public opinion ...

like others have mentioned - we are bound by laws to shelter these people until they can figure out who they are ... in listening to a piece on cbc radio - it was interesting to hear tho that many of these people pass a bunch of other countries that would be in a similar position but canada is where they want to go come hell or high water ...

my personal take is that if these people are legitimate refugees who would be persecuted if sent back home and not because they actually committed a crime - we need to afford them that status however, i do feel for all the people that are trying to come to canada through legitimate means that can't because of our strict criteria (point system) ... i have two friends living in NYC that would love to move to toronto but they don't think they could meet the requirements ... they both have post-graduate degrees - she is getting her phd and he is getting his second masters degree ...

theres a difference between want and need.

polaris_x

catefrances wrote:

theres a difference between want and need.

all these passengers on these boats pass numerous countries which affords them the same rights internationally ... for many - it's canada or bust ... if simply escaping persecution was their intent - there are many other places they can stop ...

haffajappa

polaris_x wrote:

catefrances wrote:

theres a difference between want and need.

all these passengers on these boats pass numerous countries which affords them the same rights internationally ... for many - it's canada or bust ... if simply escaping persecution was their intent - there are many other places they can stop ...

I never thought of that... how come they never pull into Seattle?

polaris_x

haffajappa wrote:

I never thought of that... how come they never pull into Seattle?

although not exactly sure ... but canada is like one of the top places in the world to live ... our social infrastructure is much better equiped for refugees and immigrants ... i would say if we weren't a northern climate - many more would try to come here ...

lukin2006

polaris_x wrote:

haffajappa wrote:

I never thought of that... how come they never pull into Seattle?

although not exactly sure ... but canada is like one of the top places in the world to live ... our social infrastructure is much better equiped for refugees and immigrants ... i would say if we weren't a northern climate - many more would try to come here ...

They like all the goodies that us taxpayers pay for, but they get just by showing up in a boat and claiming to be a refugee. Until their claims are heard who supports them? who feeds them? who provides medical? I'll tell you who the taxpayer!!! From what I understand they are still dealing with refugees from as much as 2 years back. Then if approved what do they do? Who supports them?
My guess the taxpayer. Sorry they can leave anytime, the only immigrants I want are ones who can contribute to our society in a positive way, as far as I'm concerned all new comers to this country should have to pay for medical for at least 5 years before they go on the same system we do, they should have to attend mandatory education class's explaining our way of life paid for by them, they should be able to read, write and speak English or French. I know these views won't be popular with many on this board, but I don't really care. I worked with a fellow who had a stroke and after 30 years of working gets very little fucking help from the government, but yet they got millions to send to Pakistan and millions more to waste dealing with these refugees. Start by helping our own first.

haffajappa

lukin2006 wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

haffajappa wrote:

I never thought of that... how come they never pull into Seattle?

although not exactly sure ... but canada is like one of the top places in the world to live ... our social infrastructure is much better equiped for refugees and immigrants ... i would say if we weren't a northern climate - many more would try to come here ...

They like all the goodies that us taxpayers pay for, but they get just by showing up in a boat and claiming to be a refugee. Until their claims are heard who supports them? who feeds them? who provides medical? I'll tell you who the taxpayer!!! From what I understand they are still dealing with refugees from as much as 2 years back. Then if approved what do they do? Who supports them?
My guess the taxpayer. Sorry they can leave anytime, the only immigrants I want are ones who can contribute to our society in a positive way, as far as I'm concerned all new comers to this country should have to pay for medical for at least 5 years before they go on the same system we do, they should have to attend mandatory education class's explaining our way of life paid for by them, they should be able to read, write and speak English or French. I know these views won't be popular with many on this board, but I don't really care. I worked with a fellow who had a stroke and after 30 years of working gets very little fucking help from the government, but yet they got millions to send to Pakistan and millions more to waste dealing with these refugees. Start by helping our own first.

Yeah but technically didn't someone say it's international law not to send them back?
So any other country would have to pay as well...


I see your side of the argument (a lot of people I know feel the same) but you have to think in terms of legitimate refugee's lives... education and a high enough income to pay for health care for 5 years isn't as feasible as you may think... it's not a luxury that many other people have.

fife

lukin2006 wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

haffajappa wrote:

I never thought of that... how come they never pull into Seattle?

although not exactly sure ... but canada is like one of the top places in the world to live ... our social infrastructure is much better equiped for refugees and immigrants ... i would say if we weren't a northern climate - many more would try to come here ...

They like all the goodies that us taxpayers pay for, but they get just by showing up in a boat and claiming to be a refugee. Until their claims are heard who supports them? who feeds them? who provides medical? I'll tell you who the taxpayer!!! From what I understand they are still dealing with refugees from as much as 2 years back. Then if approved what do they do? Who supports them?
My guess the taxpayer. Sorry they can leave anytime, the only immigrants I want are ones who can contribute to our society in a positive way, as far as I'm concerned all new comers to this country should have to pay for medical for at least 5 years before they go on the same system we do, they should have to attend mandatory education class's explaining our way of life paid for by them, they should be able to read, write and speak English or French. I know these views won't be popular with many on this board, but I don't really care. I worked with a fellow who had a stroke and after 30 years of working gets very little fucking help from the government, but yet they got millions to send to Pakistan and millions more to waste dealing with these refugees. Start by helping our own first.

While i understand some of the things you are saying i can't agree to all of them. To begin, you right away are stating that these people "will not contribute to our society in a positive way" which is impossible to know. secondly, what is exactly the Canadian way that you want to teach? many people here would say that helping those who have less is the Canadian way. that why you have the health care system also. Every year we are ranked one of the top countries to live in, why? because of what we believe. we believe in universal health care, we believe in multiculturalism, we believe in taking care of others. WE BELIEVE IN HOCKEY as the greatest sport . sometimes we get ripped off because of it but that is who we are.

I under the frustration about how our government spends money, but i do think that there are situation in which yes one country may have problems but when you compare them to another country I.e. the major flood in Pakistan, we understand that the need is more there.

sourdough09

So, you're right, they have passed through a number of countries that technically could have sheltered them, however not all countries abide by international law. For example, a boat load of Burmese refugees was heading to Thailand when the Thai border patrol illegally turned them away. This led to the deaths of thousands of Burmese refugees who had few supplies or provisions to take them beyond Thailand. There are many other examples and perhaps, the refugee process may not be quite as fair as the Canadian process.

As to only accepting refugees who "contribute in a positive way", studies have shown that refugees are often the most loyal and productive immigrants. To insinuate that they are all parasitic drains on the system is a needless attack. God forbid you are ever in a situation where you are no longer safe at home.

The "take care of your own first" arguments get old. Seriously. If we truly believe all human life is equal than borders should really mean very little when life is at stake. Yes, there is poverty and suffering at home, but there is a moral and ethical responsibility to help others as well.

lukin2006

haffajappa wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

although not exactly sure ... but canada is like one of the top places in the world to live ... our social infrastructure is much better equiped for refugees and immigrants ... i would say if we weren't a northern climate - many more would try to come here ...

They like all the goodies that us taxpayers pay for, but they get just by showing up in a boat and claiming to be a refugee. Until their claims are heard who supports them? who feeds them? who provides medical? I'll tell you who the taxpayer!!! From what I understand they are still dealing with refugees from as much as 2 years back. Then if approved what do they do? Who supports them?
My guess the taxpayer. Sorry they can leave anytime, the only immigrants I want are ones who can contribute to our society in a positive way, as far as I'm concerned all new comers to this country should have to pay for medical for at least 5 years before they go on the same system we do, they should have to attend mandatory education class's explaining our way of life paid for by them, they should be able to read, write and speak English or French. I know these views won't be popular with many on this board, but I don't really care. I worked with a fellow who had a stroke and after 30 years of working gets very little fucking help from the government, but yet they got millions to send to Pakistan and millions more to waste dealing with these refugees. Start by helping our own first.

Yeah but technically didn't someone say it's international law not to send them back?
So any other country would have to pay as well...


I see your side of the argument (a lot of people I know feel the same) but you have to think in terms of legitimate refugee's lives... education and a high enough income to pay for health care for 5 years isn't as feasible as you may think... it's not a luxury that many other people have.

We can barely afford the health care we have in this country and in particular Ontario and many of these refugees end up in Toronto so their health care cost fall onto the shoulders of an already overtaxed province.