some things you just don't post on facebook...

BamaPJFan

outlaw: You just hit it out of the park with your last post. You have me pegged exactly right! I'm impressed. Good job, dude.

TriumphantAngel

BamaPJFan wrote:

_outlaw wrote:

BamaPJFan wrote:

I don't have one ounce of sympathy for the Palestinians in this photo. I'm sure Obama will be weighing in very soon.

why would you? your racism transcends any bounds of sympathy you could carry.

Why would you insinuate that I'm a racist? Is it because I side with Israel and because I don't like Obama? That's the trendy liberal line these days. If you disagree with Obama, then you MUST be one of those racists. You're comment shows what a shallow, ignorant individual you must be.

why would you think Obama would be weighing in very soon? Obama is pro-Israel. always has been.

that comment alone shows how ignorant and ill informed on the situation you are doesn't it.

TriumphantAngel

BamaPJFan wrote:

outlaw: You just hit it out of the park with your last post.

indeed he did.

your words speak for themselves.

gimmesometruth27

Israeli ex-soldier says Facebook prisoner pictures were souvenirsEden Abergil brushes off criticism as veterans group says 'victory pictures' widespread practice among soldiers

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/au ... -prisoners

A former Israeli soldier who posed for pictures with Palestinian detainees and posted them on her Facebook page defended her actions today, as more images emerged of Israeli service personel posing alongside blindfolded detainees and dead bodies.

"I still don't understand what I did wrong," Eden Abergil told Israeli army radio. Abergil, a reserve officer with the Israeli army who completed compulsory military service last year, provoked outrage over photographs in which she posed next to handcuffed, blindfolded Palestinians.

She told army radio: "There's no violence or intention to humiliate anyone in the pictures. I just had my picture taken with them in the background. I did it out of excitement, to remember the experience. It wasn't a political statement or any kind of statement. It was about remembering my experiences in the army and that's it."

The pictures have provoked a furious rection from Palestinians, who compared them to images of US soldiers abusing of Iraqi prisoners in Baghdad in 2004

"This is not very different to what was exposed at Abu Ghraib in Iraq," said Mustafa Barghouti, secretary general of the Palestinian National Initiative. "It is not an individual act, or a personal act or a lack of judgment, but a part of the constant racist behaviour that is implanted in the Israeli army and a whole philosophy of discrimination against Arabs and Palestinians. The most important characteristic of this treatment is humiliation."

An Israeli army spokesperson described the Facebook photographs as "shameful behaviour".

Breaking the Silence, an Israeli group of army veterans that documents the experiences of soldiers serving in the occupied West Bank, released more photographs to demonstrate that the practice is widespread.

The group said its preliminary batch of graphic pictures, some featuring Israeli soldiers posing next to dead bodies, was collated over the last decade and that a few of the images were from the Facebook pages of active soldiers. It asked the Israeli army to "clarify that this is a widespread phenomenon, not an unusual incident by one soldier".

Yehuda Shaul, one of the group's founders, said: "This is commonplace. Don't you take pictures of your everyday life? For these soldiers serving in the occupied territories, this is what they see 24/7 – handcuffed and blindfolded Palestinians."

Shaul described the photographs of Israeli soldiers standing next to what appear to be dead Palestinian men as "victory souvenirs". "Being in a place where you cannot see Palestinians as human beings is the default when you are serving in the occupied Palestinian territories."

Khalida Jarar, a Palestinian politician and director of Addameer, the Palestinian prisoner support and human rights association, said: "There are many more violations and abuses of Palestinians, without photographs. The soldiers take these pictures to show that they can do anything they want to Palestinians."

gimmesometruth27

here is a link to more "victory pictures"....should be called "evidence"...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gallery ... 41&index=8

TriumphantAngel

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

"I still don't understand what I did wrong," Eden Abergil told Israeli army radio. Abergil, a reserve officer with the Israeli army who completed compulsory military service last year, provoked outrage over photographs in which she posed next to handcuffed, blindfolded Palestinians.

is there anyone here who doesn't understand what this stupid girl did wrong?

i'm not surprised she doesn't think she did anything wrong. ater all, like a lot of Israeli Jews, she considers non-Jews, Arabs in particular, to be subhuman.

TriumphantAngel

there's a documentary called "To See If I Am Smiling", which is based around 6 Israeli girls who talk about their experiences in the military.

there's one part in the doc where they talk to a girl who was a medic whose name is Meytal. she used to also clean the corpses of Palestinians who had been killed by the IDF. she posed with a big smile on her face, giving the thumbs up signal, next to the body of a murdered Palestinian.



the other girls were also guilty of unspeakable things, which they admitted to in the documentary.

the facebook fiasco is not an isolated incident. so please don't pretend it is.

Commy

TriumphantAngel wrote:

there's a documentary called "To See If I Am Smiling", which is based around 6 Israeli girls who talk about their experiences in the military.

there's one part in the doc where they talk to a girl who was a medic whose name is Meytal. she used to also clean the corpses of Palestinians who had been killed by the IDF. she posed with a big smile on her face, giving the thumbs up signal, next to the body of a murdered Palestinian.



the other girls were also guilty of unspeakable things, which they admitted to in the documentary.

the facebook fiasco is not an isolated incident. so please don't pretend it is.

the lyrics


war, what is it good for?



come to mind.




although calling a siege "war" seems inaccurate.

rafie

TriumphantAngel wrote:

there's a documentary called "To See If I Am Smiling", which is based around 6 Israeli girls who talk about their experiences in the military.

there's one part in the doc where they talk to a girl who was a medic whose name is Meytal. she used to also clean the corpses of Palestinians who had been killed by the IDF. she posed with a big smile on her face, giving the thumbs up signal, next to the body of a murdered Palestinian.



the other girls were also guilty of unspeakable things, which they admitted to in the documentary.

the facebook fiasco is not an isolated incident. so please don't pretend it is.

Let me start by saying once again that I think this picture taking issue is disgusting and that any one who does it should be sent to jail. With that said, the picture you posted is not of an Israeli. How am I so sure of this? Let's put the issue of uniform and equipment aside, the link to the pic says "abu-ghraib":
http://warincontext.org/wp-content/uplo ... ghraib.jpg

Commy

rafie wrote:

Let me start by saying once again that I think this picture taking issue is disgusting and that any one who does it should be sent to jail. With that said, the picture you posted is not of an Israeli. How am I so sure of this? Let's put the issue of uniform and equipment aside, the link to the pic says "abu-ghraib":
http://warincontext.org/wp-content/uplo ... ghraib.jpg

does it matter if this is the picture? it was fucked up, deplorable behavior from the idf...


here is the Israeli soldier in question talking about the picture in question...


In the film, Ms. Sandler described the night the photograph was taken:

There’s a shooting battle and again there’s a dead body. And what is by now a normal procedure, we take the body put it near the latrines and wash it. Then, something very funny happens: he has an erection. A dead body with an erection. We laugh a little because it’s embarrassing. And… it’s open grounds, so anyone come and take a peek. Some female sergeants that I knew arrive from the operations room come in. One of them has a camera and without even thinking, I tell her, ‘Come, take my picture.’ And I sit down next to the dead body and… I have my picture taken.

As she described the memory, Ms. Sandler looked haunted and on the verge of tears. But the film includes video of her at a party marking the end of her military service — reading a letter from the other soldiers who tell her, “You know that we love you,” showing off a gift, dancing to electronic music — to illustrate how differently she felt about her stint in the army at the time.

Later, she told the filmmaker:

I’m not sure when it was, but at some point, I became very ashamed of that picture. And… I didn’t tell anyone about it, that it existed. I forgot about it a little. But I would like to see it. To see if I look different. I want to see if I’m smiling.

Near the end of the documentary, as she prepared to look again at the photograph, which had not been in her possession, Ms. Sandler said: “Who wants to deal with the evil within himself, the alienation? Who wants to deal with that? Dealing with these questions is painful.”

catefrances

Commy wrote:

rafie wrote:

Let me start by saying once again that I think this picture taking issue is disgusting and that any one who does it should be sent to jail. With that said, the picture you posted is not of an Israeli. How am I so sure of this? Let's put the issue of uniform and equipment aside, the link to the pic says "abu-ghraib":
http://warincontext.org/wp-content/uplo ... ghraib.jpg

does it matter if this is the picture? it was fucked up, deplorable behavior from the idf...
...

yes it matters. if youre going to attack someone for their behaviour and are using a picture to illustrate that, then the picture accompanying that attack must represent the person you are attacking, dont you think?

Commy

catefrances wrote:

Commy wrote:

rafie wrote:

Let me start by saying once again that I think this picture taking issue is disgusting and that any one who does it should be sent to jail. With that said, the picture you posted is not of an Israeli. How am I so sure of this? Let's put the issue of uniform and equipment aside, the link to the pic says "abu-ghraib":
http://warincontext.org/wp-content/uplo ... ghraib.jpg

does it matter if this is the picture? it was fucked up, deplorable behavior from the idf...
...

yes it matters. if youre going to attack someone for their behaviour and are using a picture to illustrate that, then the picture accompanying that attack must represent the person you are attacking, dont you think?

not if the message you are presenting has absolutely nothing to do with the picture you are posting, which is the case here.

Commy

its the idea of it that is so sickening.





war is corrupting. we dont' need a fucking picture to tell us that. we have her testimony about a picture, which is much more damning.

catefrances

Commy wrote:

catefrances wrote:

Commy wrote:

does it matter if this is the picture? it was fucked up, deplorable behavior from the idf...
...

yes it matters. if youre going to attack someone for their behaviour and are using a picture to illustrate that, then the picture accompanying that attack must represent the person you are attacking, dont you think?

not if the message you are presenting has absolutely nothing to do with the picture you are posting, which is the case here.

commy that makes no sense at all. why would you post a pic that does not illustrate the message youre trying to convey?

catefrances

Commy wrote:

its the idea of it that is so sickening.





war is corrupting. we dont' need a fucking picture to tell us that. we have her testimony about a picture, which is much more damning.

whoa there tiger. we are on the same side about how war corrupts.

Commy

catefrances wrote:

commy that makes no sense at all. why would you post a pic that does not illustrate the message youre trying to convey?

i'm saying the picture is irrelevant given the Israeli soldiers words about the picture in question, which i posted.



i'm still not convinced the picture in question is false, we have rafie's objection, but that doesn't mean the picture isn't accurate.

Commy

catefrances wrote:

Commy wrote:

its the idea of it that is so sickening.





war is corrupting. we dont' need a fucking picture to tell us that. we have her testimony about a picture, which is much more damning.

whoa there tiger. we are on the same side about how war corrupts.

was in a general statement, not directed at you.

catefrances

Commy wrote:

catefrances wrote:

commy that makes no sense at all. why would you post a pic that does not illustrate the message youre trying to convey?

i'm saying the picture is irrelevant given the Israeli soldiers words about the picture in question, which i posted.



i'm still not convinced the picture in question is false, we have rafie's objection, but that doesn't mean the picture isn't accurate.

and whether it is or isnt is irrelevant to my argument. and yes youre right her testimony is more damning that any photo could ever be.

TriumphantAngel

i did not invent the fucking picture. i didn't falsify the picture. i didn't imagine the picture.

Mytel Sandler, the medic in the documentary, told her story as to what happened and i got it from here.

In the documentary, To See If I Am Smiling (released in 2007), six young Israeli women recount their experiences of military service in the occupied Palestinian territories.

The title comes from a story told by Meytal, a medic and medical officer. Having described how cleaning the corpses of Palestinians after they had been brutalized by Israeli soldiers had become a routine part of her job, she goes on to recount a particular moment that still haunts her: when she posed for a photograph next to a corpse.

I’m not sure when it was, but at some point I became very ashamed of that picture. And I didn’t tell anyone about it, that it existed. I forgot about it a little. But I would like to see it. To see if I look different. I want to see if I’m still smiling.

The photograph is not shown in the documentary, but in the mind’s eye of most Americans it probably evokes memories of Abu Ghraib.

Such images are iconic because they capture the moment in which a soldier discovers that he or she has become the very thing they fear. The dehumanized other is a vortex from which there is no escape.

If a nation can have such a thing as a soul, To See If I Am Smiling, reveals how profoundly Israel’s soul has been scarred by 43 years of occupation. A fully militarized society has shackled itself to a conviction — we have no choice — whereby each individual can then bury their own awareness of complicity and moral responsibility under a collective weight of irresistible necessity.

But even among Israelis who are comfortably indifferent to the plight of Palestinians, one has to wonder: how do they account for what they have done to their own sons and daughters?

As a nation struggles to avoid looking at itself, no wonder the fury and passion with which it attacks those who hold up a mirror.

http://warincontext.org/2010/05/09/to-s ... m-smiling/

catefrances

TriumphantAngel wrote:

i did not invent the fucking picture. i didn't falsify the picture. i didn't imagine the picture. ...

no one is saying you did. are they? i know im not.