71% Mo. voters reject key provision of health care law

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Comments

  • FiveB247x
    FiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    Well actually you're overlooking one major factor which is key to the discussion... you assume people can afford healthcare and insurance. And in our nation, whether through insurance companies, doctors, or the government, there's no viable way to counter-act that. Basically your answer removes the practical side of the issue, like what would you do if you needed x done and couldn't afford it or it effected your health because you couldn't get x done? This is a common issue in our nation, yet you just assume everything is based on people not taking care of themselves (which is part of the problem, but not all of it). Lastly, you say the government "control your life" - so basically you prefer society to be reamed over the coals to private corporations who do not care about you or your health, only profit.... as if that is better in some manner? To assume private, for profit companies would somehow veer society better is asinine. And when you base a system on what people can afford, you are putting price-tags on people and their health. Maybe that sounds ok to you, but I'm sure if you were priced out or couldn't afford such, you're opinion would be very, very different.
    HeidiJam wrote:
    I am not putting a price tag on anything. I am just trying to figure out why we deem health care a right when its not my responsibility to take care of anybodys health but my own and my kids. giving health care as a right will lead to an increase in demand for health care that will decrease the quality of care. Like is said waiting 7-10 months to get an MRI is not "health care" its "you'll have to wait a while to receive health care". Why are you not arguing food being a right, or water, or cars??? When does taking care of your self start. Why are you willing to let the gov control another aspect of your life.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • FiveB247x
    FiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    So who said your security is a right? Why pay for police? You can make this case for anything.

    And these things are not a right because we value money more than humanity... it's why and where the term "money is evil" comes from. It skews what's right in the world in order to justify things like "life isn't fair". Sounds like nothing more than selfish, entitled people hoarding things for themselves. No we will never live in a perfect utopia, but when all we do is put price tags on everything, everything loses value and is meaningless... including life.
    HeidiJam wrote:
    Oh i guess Doctors are public servents now???
    We pay for police so their duty is to protect us.
    Tell me why your health care is a right. Why does my Money have to go towards your wellbeing.
    Your acting as if life is supposed to be fair for everybody. Life is not fair.
    Why is food not a right, why is shelter not a right, why are glasses or contact lenses not a right.
    Should we all make the same ammount of money so life is fair for everybody?
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • haffajappa
    haffajappa British Columbia Posts: 5,955
    HeidiJam wrote:
    haffajappa wrote:
    HeidiJam wrote:
    I am not putting a price tag on anything. I am just trying to figure out why we deem health care a right when its not my responsibility to take care of anybodys health but my own and my kids. giving health care as a right will lead to an increase in demand for health care that will decrease the quality of care. Like is said waiting 7-10 months to get an MRI is not "health care" its "you'll have to wait a while to receive health care". Why are you not arguing food being a right, or water, or cars??? When does taking care of your self start. Why are you willing to let the gov control another aspect of your life.

    Um, there's a difference between finding a means of transit and a means of curing a disease.
    Or stitching up a stab wound.

    Its like saying there shouldn't be any police. If you can't protect yourself, then fuck you!
    Oh i guess Doctors are public servents now???
    We pay for police so their duty is to protect us.
    Tell me why your health care is a right. Why does my Money have to go towards your wellbeing.
    Your acting as if life is supposed to be fair for everybody. Life is not fair.
    Why is food not a right, why is shelter not a right, why are glasses or contact lenses not a right.
    Should we all make the same ammount of money so life is fair for everybody?
    You're arguing life is only fair for those who can afford it.
    If you couldn't afford it, you wouldn't be acting so high and mighty if your child was shot.
    We pay for hospitals and their duty is to serve patients. Clearly our system is not perfect, what system is? Our tax dollars go to a lot of shitty things, and if my generation wasn't so apathetic we'd see real changes and improvements in health care and education. Ask any Canadian and they will tell you, our health system needs work. But ask them who would want a corporation-based system like the USA, and I can assure you the fraction is small.

    It seems bizarre to me, and to a lot of people (ask our fellow friends in the UK, or the rest of Europe), that people are so passionately against a system like, well, any other system pretty much in a first world country.

    If you have the money to pay in Canada, you certainly can. You can go to a private MRI clinic and get a scan done for a price (may or may not be covered under your health insurance through your job). But if you don't have the money to pay, you're not going to die for it. Even if your homeless and get dragged into a hospital they're not going to let you bleed out on the emergency room floor because you haven't got a penny.

    We have to work on being a healthier country, food-wise, drug-wise, etc. But I've got no problem seeing my taxpayer money going towards savings lives. And I don't care what anyone says, people have the right to live.

    Why people waste so much energy complaining about money going to health care instead of trillion dollar wars or billion dollar bailouts for CEOs with fatty pockets, I'll never know. I guess the former is labelled too socialist and should bow down to the sheer capitalist greed of the latter.
    live pearl jam is best pearl jam
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Well actually you're overlooking one major factor which is key to the discussion... you assume people can afford healthcare and insurance. And in our nation, whether through insurance companies, doctors, or the government, there's no viable way to counter-act that. Basically your answer removes the practical side of the issue, like what would you do if you needed x done and couldn't afford it or it effected your health because you couldn't get x done? This is a common issue in our nation, yet you just assume everything is based on people not taking care of themselves (which is part of the problem, but not all of it). Lastly, you say the government "control your life" - so basically you prefer society to be reamed over the coals to private corporations who do not care about you or your health, only profit.... as if that is better in some manner? To assume private, for profit companies would somehow veer society better is asinine. And when you base a system on what people can afford, you are putting price-tags on people and their health. Maybe that sounds ok to you, but I'm sure if you were priced out or couldn't afford such, you're opinion would be very, very different.
    Then what about food? Should the gov provide food for everybody??? You can't live without food.
    And yes private is much better than gov. Private = you making the decisions on what you are buying, and those private companies have to complete to get business. Free Market.
    Gov = making the decisions for you. Yes private is much better. I am not talking about what will make society better. I am not putting a price tag on anything. In fact saying that you have a right to healthcare is about as antifreedom as you can get, because if you have a right to it, then it means that someone else is obligated to provide it for you no matter what.
  • haffajappa
    haffajappa British Columbia Posts: 5,955
    HeidiJam wrote:
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Well actually you're overlooking one major factor which is key to the discussion... you assume people can afford healthcare and insurance. And in our nation, whether through insurance companies, doctors, or the government, there's no viable way to counter-act that. Basically your answer removes the practical side of the issue, like what would you do if you needed x done and couldn't afford it or it effected your health because you couldn't get x done? This is a common issue in our nation, yet you just assume everything is based on people not taking care of themselves (which is part of the problem, but not all of it). Lastly, you say the government "control your life" - so basically you prefer society to be reamed over the coals to private corporations who do not care about you or your health, only profit.... as if that is better in some manner? To assume private, for profit companies would somehow veer society better is asinine. And when you base a system on what people can afford, you are putting price-tags on people and their health. Maybe that sounds ok to you, but I'm sure if you were priced out or couldn't afford such, you're opinion would be very, very different.
    Then what about food? Should the gov provide food for everybody??? You can't live without food.
    And yes private is much better than gov. Private = you making the decisions on what you are buying, and those private companies have to complete to get business. Free Market.
    Gov = making the decisions for you. Yes private is much better. I am not talking about what will make society better. I am not putting a price tag on anything. In fact saying that you have a right to healthcare is about as antifreedom as you can get, because if you have a right to it, then it means that someone else is obligated to provide it for you no matter what.
    That is the assumption that the companies (in this case health insurance) will actually complete their side of the bargain.
    live pearl jam is best pearl jam
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    haffajappa wrote:
    You're arguing life is only fair for those who can afford it.
    If you couldn't afford it, you wouldn't be acting so high and mighty if your child was shot.
    We pay for hospitals and their duty is to serve patients. Clearly our system is not perfect, what system is? Our tax dollars go to a lot of shitty things, and if my generation wasn't so apathetic we'd see real changes and improvements in health care and education. Ask any Canadian and they will tell you, our health system needs work. But ask them who would want a corporation-based system like the USA, and I can assure you the fraction is small.

    It seems bizarre to me, and to a lot of people (ask our fellow friends in the UK, or the rest of Europe), that people are so passionately against a system like, well, any other system pretty much in a first world country.

    If you have the money to pay in Canada, you certainly can. You can go to a private MRI clinic and get a scan done for a price (may or may not be covered under your health insurance through your job). But if you don't have the money to pay, you're not going to die for it. Even if your homeless and get dragged into a hospital they're not going to let you bleed out on the emergency room floor because you haven't got a penny.

    We have to work on being a healthier country, food-wise, drug-wise, etc. But I've got no problem seeing my taxpayer money going towards savings lives. And I don't care what anyone says, people have the right to live.

    Why people waste so much energy complaining about money going to health care instead of trillion dollar wars or billion dollar bailouts for CEOs with fatty pockets, I'll never know. I guess the former is labelled too socialist and should bow down to the sheer capitalist greed of the latter.
    In canada it takes 18 weeks for heart related problems.
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    haffajappa wrote:
    That is the assumption that the companies (in this case health insurance) will actually complete their side of the bargain.
    Look at the trends of consumer technology getting cheaper and cheaper. I am willing to bet that health care would follow the same trend.
  • haffajappa
    haffajappa British Columbia Posts: 5,955
    HeidiJam wrote:
    haffajappa wrote:
    That is the assumption that the companies (in this case health insurance) will actually complete their side of the bargain.
    Look at the trends of consumer technology getting cheaper and cheaper. I am willing to bet that health care would follow the same trend.
    What like I can get an iPhone for $199 so the same trend should follow with my hospital bill?
    FYI, your doctors aren't going to work for less.
    live pearl jam is best pearl jam
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    FiveB247x wrote:
    So who said your security is a right? Why pay for police? You can make this case for anything.

    And these things are not a right because we value money more than humanity... it's why and where the term "money is evil" comes from. It skews what's right in the world in order to justify things like "life isn't fair". Sounds like nothing more than selfish, entitled people hoarding things for themselves. No we will never live in a perfect utopia, but when all we do is put price tags on everything, everything loses value and is meaningless... including life.
    quote]
    No one said my security was a right. But it is a right if my money is paying their service. Money is not evil. People are evil. Money have never comitted a crime, or murder. People do. Money does not skew whats right in the world. People do and use money to justify their reason. Life isn't fair, why is it that hard to understand.
    Your the one who seems to be focused on money and blaming money for everything. And life is only meaningless when you quit rewarding hard work and honor and start making things fair for everybody. You want to see a shitty society, make everything fair and accessable for everybody. That will breed nothing but laziness.
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    haffajappa wrote:
    HeidiJam wrote:
    haffajappa wrote:
    That is the assumption that the companies (in this case health insurance) will actually complete their side of the bargain.
    Look at the trends of consumer technology getting cheaper and cheaper. I am willing to bet that health care would follow the same trend.
    What like I can get an iPhone for $199 so the same trend should follow with my hospital bill?
    FYI, your doctors aren't going to work for less.
    Then why do you feel you will get the same care if they make health care a rite and free for everybody.
    Your care and service will suffer becuase you are now turning doctors into slaves.
  • haffajappa
    haffajappa British Columbia Posts: 5,955
    actually in B.C. Gordon Campbell just cut the amount of patients a doctor is allowed to see within a specific span of time.

    our doctor's aren't bound in chains if that's what you think, forcibly treating patients on an inhumane basis :lol:
    live pearl jam is best pearl jam
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    haffajappa wrote:
    actually in B.C. Gordon Campbell just cut the amount of patients a doctor is allowed to see within a specific span of time.

    our doctor's aren't bound in chains if that's what you think, forcibly treating patients on an inhumane basis :lol:
    Our populations are very similar :roll:
    Rights are concepts, not actual goods & services.
  • haffajappa
    haffajappa British Columbia Posts: 5,955
    HeidiJam wrote:
    haffajappa wrote:
    actually in B.C. Gordon Campbell just cut the amount of patients a doctor is allowed to see within a specific span of time.

    our doctor's aren't bound in chains if that's what you think, forcibly treating patients on an inhumane basis :lol:
    Our populations are very similar :roll:
    Rights are concepts, not actual goods & services.
    What do you mean by populations? Quantity?
    If by similar you meant we have about a tenth of the people?
    live pearl jam is best pearl jam
  • FiveB247x
    FiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    You're throwing around all of these cliche's like "laziness" or "free market".. the reality is our current system is an atrocity, not because of government, but because the private sector is screwing over everyone. As for "life isn't fair", maybe you haven't had a situation personally where the simple black and white is you are denied coverage or medical care because of money. I highly doubt you'd stand by your comments if that were the case. People lose their homes and life savings to pay for healthcare, and not solely things they do to themselves (bad care), but genetic related issues. Laziness in this discussion is saying to tolerate it. Not sure what society you live in, but people work more, get less money and benefits and coverage and costs increase... that's what the alleged free market has done.. by the way, it's not free, it's contrived and you seem to justify it by saying all these things like people are evil. People are evil when they act in self-interest.. which is what the our corporate agenda does... medical insurance and healthcare included.

    Also, you keep saying we're not putting a price on people and people's health yet keep mentioning how healthcare is goods and services. Contradictory.
    HeidiJam wrote:
    No one said my security was a right. But it is a right if my money is paying their service. Money is not evil. People are evil. Money have never comitted a crime, or murder. People do. Money does not skew whats right in the world. People do and use money to justify their reason. Life isn't fair, why is it that hard to understand.
    Your the one who seems to be focused on money and blaming money for everything. And life is only meaningless when you quit rewarding hard work and honor and start making things fair for everybody. You want to see a shitty society, make everything fair and accessable for everybody. That will breed nothing but laziness.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    HeidiJam wrote:
    giving health care as a right will lead to an increase in demand for health care that will decrease the quality of care. Like is said waiting 7-10 months to get an MRI is not "health care" its "you'll have to wait a while to receive health care".

    Do you think it's right for you to get an MRI right away causing someone else who needs it much more urgently to have to wait too long? Do you think it's right for this determination to be made based on who has more money? If so, do you think ER care should be provided the same way - we should triage people according to their bank statements rather than by medical necessity?
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    haffajappa wrote:
    Oh some people make me laugh...

    I'm glad you can laugh. They make me cry. :cry:
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    Random thoughts...

    1. How can people have such a lack of understanding of our healthcare system?? (It wouldn't be so bad if they didn't actually think they understood it.)

    2. Heidi - Healthcare costs are INCREASING under this "free market" system you support, not decreasing.

    3. Heidi - Do you or do you not believe we should have police departments, fire departments, health inspectors (like for restaurants), etc.?

    4. I think we should save time and just kill all the poor people.

    5. Much as some people like to hate on the poor, this really isn't even about poor people. The vast majority of the American public cannot afford to pay out-of-pocket for their own healthcare. So, Heidi, you are just one pink slip away from being unable to access medical care for your family (two pink slips, since your wife works). If that were to happen, would you refuse Medicaid for your children?

    6. Sometimes I wish people actually would experience hardship so they can get a clue. Does that make me a bad person?
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    scb wrote:
    HeidiJam wrote:
    giving health care as a right will lead to an increase in demand for health care that will decrease the quality of care. Like is said waiting 7-10 months to get an MRI is not "health care" its "you'll have to wait a while to receive health care".

    Do you think it's right for you to get an MRI right away causing someone else who needs it much more urgently to have to wait too long? Do you think it's right for this determination to be made based on who has more money? If so, do you think ER care should be provided the same way - we should triage people according to their bank statements rather than by medical necessity?
    Who are you to decide who needs it more??? Oh wait you want to leave it up the gov who decides who get health care on a timely basis. So are they going to refuse care to elderly when they deem younger people need health care first? I think this determination should be made on who can provide for their own wellbeing. No one has yet to answer my food question... Is food a right? Why not? You can't live without food.
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    scb wrote:
    Random thoughts...

    1. How can people have such a lack of understanding of our healthcare system?? (It wouldn't be so bad if they didn't actually think they understood it.) Who acting like they know how the gov ran healthcare and the historical debt that comes along with it...

    2. Heidi - Healthcare costs are INCREASING under this "free market" system you support, not decreasing.
    Glad your not counting in inflation... and also because the methods and quality of health care change constantly and as a result are often not comparable.
    3. Heidi - Do you or do you not believe we should have police departments, fire departments, health inspectors (like for restaurants), etc.? Those are all public services that we pay for with out tax money. So yes we should have them. Our money pays for their lives. So why should they not serve the public? I am not sure at what you are trying to get at.
    4. I think we should save time and just kill all the poor people. Or maybe not give them (welfare,foodstamps,cellphones,section 8 housing) and they can learn what hard work is by getting a job and be able to provide for them selve, including healtcare. (not all poor, but before you get mad, but constant giving them privilges will only breed laziness.)
    5. Much as some people like to hate on the poor, this really isn't even about poor people. The vast majority of the American public cannot afford to pay out-of-pocket for their own healthcare. So, Heidi, you are just one pink slip away from being unable to access medical care for your family (two pink slips, since your wife works). If that were to happen, would you refuse Medicaid for your children? Your right were all one pink slip away from this , if that would happen i would use my unemployment money to provide for my healthcare and and use my savings for any other itmes that were in need. That may come as a shock to you but we are responsible for what happens to us and i have prepared accordingly.
    6. Sometimes I wish people actually would experience hardship so they can get a clue. Does that make me a bad person?
    So the vewy few accounts of bad healthcare coverage is a a gernealization on the whole system. Its not a prefect system but you are acting like these tragic cases happen all the time and they don't, one story from obama does not encompas the whole population that have healtcare. I have experienced hardships and made it through them just fine.
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    Please tell me what is not a right???
    Why is food not a right?
    WHy is shelter not a right?

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