You're throwing around all of these cliche's like "laziness" or "free market".. the reality is our current system is an atrocity, not because of government, but because the private sector is screwing over everyone. As for "life isn't fair", maybe you haven't had a situation personally where the simple black and white is you are denied coverage or medical care because of money. I highly doubt you'd stand by your comments if that were the case. People lose their homes and life savings to pay for healthcare, and not solely things they do to themselves (bad care), but genetic related issues. Laziness in this discussion is saying to tolerate it. Not sure what society you live in, but people work more, get less money and benefits and coverage and costs increase... that's what the alleged free market has done.. by the way, it's not free, it's contrived and you seem to justify it by saying all these things like people are evil. People are evil when they act in self-interest.. which is what the our corporate agenda does... medical insurance and healthcare included.
Also, you keep saying we're not putting a price on people and people's health yet keep mentioning how healthcare is goods and services. Contradictory.
No one said my security was a right. But it is a right if my money is paying their service. Money is not evil. People are evil. Money have never comitted a crime, or murder. People do. Money does not skew whats right in the world. People do and use money to justify their reason. Life isn't fair, why is it that hard to understand.
Your the one who seems to be focused on money and blaming money for everything. And life is only meaningless when you quit rewarding hard work and honor and start making things fair for everybody. You want to see a shitty society, make everything fair and accessable for everybody. That will breed nothing but laziness.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
giving health care as a right will lead to an increase in demand for health care that will decrease the quality of care. Like is said waiting 7-10 months to get an MRI is not "health care" its "you'll have to wait a while to receive health care".
Do you think it's right for you to get an MRI right away causing someone else who needs it much more urgently to have to wait too long? Do you think it's right for this determination to be made based on who has more money? If so, do you think ER care should be provided the same way - we should triage people according to their bank statements rather than by medical necessity?
1. How can people have such a lack of understanding of our healthcare system?? (It wouldn't be so bad if they didn't actually think they understood it.)
2. Heidi - Healthcare costs are INCREASING under this "free market" system you support, not decreasing.
3. Heidi - Do you or do you not believe we should have police departments, fire departments, health inspectors (like for restaurants), etc.?
4. I think we should save time and just kill all the poor people.
5. Much as some people like to hate on the poor, this really isn't even about poor people. The vast majority of the American public cannot afford to pay out-of-pocket for their own healthcare. So, Heidi, you are just one pink slip away from being unable to access medical care for your family (two pink slips, since your wife works). If that were to happen, would you refuse Medicaid for your children?
6. Sometimes I wish people actually would experience hardship so they can get a clue. Does that make me a bad person?
giving health care as a right will lead to an increase in demand for health care that will decrease the quality of care. Like is said waiting 7-10 months to get an MRI is not "health care" its "you'll have to wait a while to receive health care".
Do you think it's right for you to get an MRI right away causing someone else who needs it much more urgently to have to wait too long? Do you think it's right for this determination to be made based on who has more money? If so, do you think ER care should be provided the same way - we should triage people according to their bank statements rather than by medical necessity?
Who are you to decide who needs it more??? Oh wait you want to leave it up the gov who decides who get health care on a timely basis. So are they going to refuse care to elderly when they deem younger people need health care first? I think this determination should be made on who can provide for their own wellbeing. No one has yet to answer my food question... Is food a right? Why not? You can't live without food.
1. How can people have such a lack of understanding of our healthcare system?? (It wouldn't be so bad if they didn't actually think they understood it.) Who acting like they know how the gov ran healthcare and the historical debt that comes along with it...
2. Heidi - Healthcare costs are INCREASING under this "free market" system you support, not decreasing. Glad your not counting in inflation... and also because the methods and quality of health care change constantly and as a result are often not comparable.
3. Heidi - Do you or do you not believe we should have police departments, fire departments, health inspectors (like for restaurants), etc.? Those are all public services that we pay for with out tax money. So yes we should have them. Our money pays for their lives. So why should they not serve the public? I am not sure at what you are trying to get at.
4. I think we should save time and just kill all the poor people. Or maybe not give them (welfare,foodstamps,cellphones,section 8 housing) and they can learn what hard work is by getting a job and be able to provide for them selve, including healtcare. (not all poor, but before you get mad, but constant giving them privilges will only breed laziness.)
5. Much as some people like to hate on the poor, this really isn't even about poor people. The vast majority of the American public cannot afford to pay out-of-pocket for their own healthcare. So, Heidi, you are just one pink slip away from being unable to access medical care for your family (two pink slips, since your wife works). If that were to happen, would you refuse Medicaid for your children? Your right were all one pink slip away from this , if that would happen i would use my unemployment money to provide for my healthcare and and use my savings for any other itmes that were in need. That may come as a shock to you but we are responsible for what happens to us and i have prepared accordingly.
6. Sometimes I wish people actually would experience hardship so they can get a clue. Does that make me a bad person?
So the vewy few accounts of bad healthcare coverage is a a gernealization on the whole system. Its not a prefect system but you are acting like these tragic cases happen all the time and they don't, one story from obama does not encompas the whole population that have healtcare. I have experienced hardships and made it through them just fine.
A few accounts? How many millions of Americans don't have insurance (like 40 million)? It's not as if they wouldn't want it or couldn't use it, they are simply priced out of getting it. Also, if you have to pay for insurance out of pocket or any healthcare costs, it is ridiculously expensive and coverage is less and less. People don't realize how bad it is until the shoe is on the other foot..
So the vewy few accounts of bad healthcare coverage is a a gernealization on the whole system. Its not a prefect system but you are acting like these tragic cases happen all the time and they don't, one story from obama does not encompas the whole population that have healtcare. I have experienced hardships and made it through them just fine.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
A few accounts? How many millions of Americans don't have insurance (like 40 million)? It's not as if they wouldn't want it or couldn't use it, they are simply priced out of getting it. Also, if you have to pay for insurance out of pocket or any healthcare costs, it is ridiculously expensive and coverage is less and less. People don't realize how bad it is until the shoe is on the other foot..
So the vewy few accounts of bad healthcare coverage is a a gernealization on the whole system. Its not a prefect system but you are acting like these tragic cases happen all the time and they don't, one story from obama does not encompas the whole population that have healtcare. I have experienced hardships and made it through them just fine.
yeah your right, all those americans that don't have insurance its all because they can't afford it... Do you know all these 40 million personally, buecase i know a ton of people, especailly family they don't have insurce because they choose not to, they would rather pay when something comes up rather than paying insurance monthly, evening the costs out. So quit acting like all these people that don't have health insurance can't afford it. People don't realize how bad a acl or mcl tear is until they get an MRI... One major way of succeeding and getting out of the ghetto is by playing sports and getting college scholorships. Waiting 7- 10 months for a MRI could cost these kids scholorships... Way to look out for the poor minorities.
giving health care as a right will lead to an increase in demand for health care that will decrease the quality of care. Like is said waiting 7-10 months to get an MRI is not "health care" its "you'll have to wait a while to receive health care".
Do you think it's right for you to get an MRI right away causing someone else who needs it much more urgently to have to wait too long? Do you think it's right for this determination to be made based on who has more money? If so, do you think ER care should be provided the same way - we should triage people according to their bank statements rather than by medical necessity?
Who are you to decide who needs it more??? Oh wait you want to leave it up the gov who decides who get health care on a timely basis. So are they going to refuse care to elderly when they deem younger people need health care first? I think this determination should be made on who can provide for their own wellbeing. No one has yet to answer my food question... Is food a right? Why not? You can't live without food.
It's not up to me, you, the government, the insurance companies, or people's bank accounts to decide whose medical care is more urgently needed - and I never said it was. (READ people, READ!!) Medical care should be left entirely up to the medical professionals - and in this current system for which you're advocating, it's not.
So you think the ER line should put people in order of wealth? Amazing. Corporate America's most successful product - sheep. You know you wouldn't be at the front of that line, right? I really hope some day you get to experience such a system.
Yes, food is a right. This is why we have programs like food stamps. Now I'm sure you have some clever rebuttal that you've been waiting for the chance to use for the past few days.
It's not up to me, you, the government, the insurance companies, or people's bank accounts to decide whose medical care is more urgently needed - and I never said it was. (READ people, READ!!) Medical care should be left entirely up to the medical professionals - and in this current system for which you're advocating, it's not.
So you think the ER line should put people in order of wealth? Amazing. Corporate America's most successful product - sheep. You know you wouldn't be at the front of that line, right? I really hope some day you get to experience such a system.
Yes, food is a right. This is why we have programs like food stamps. Now I'm sure you have some clever rebuttal that you've been waiting for the chance to use for the past few days.
It is up to the medical professional and they are providing you a service that you have to pay for. The ER line should be on who needs to most care, but if one pays alot for their health care should they not get the same timely care, since they are actually paying for that good and service? You should receive that care that you can provide for your self. And please provide me a case where someone without insurance was turned down emergency care please?
So if it was determined that it would be only fair if everyone had a house, a car, and a big screen television, it would be ok? Let's say the government would have to take 75% of your paycheck to provide for these rights, would you be ok with it?
Once again services and goods are not a right. You don't have a right to any else's labor or property.
Rights aren't something that are granted, they are something that cannot be taken away, such as freedom of speech and the right to bear arms (in the US, anyway). If healthcare were to be declared a right, then the right to bear arms would also mean that the government should offer free firearms for every US citizen, or that the government should offer everyone free paper in order to express their ideas.
Not sure why you're bringing up "poor minorities" - quite frankly to me sounds a bit racist at worst case and a bit misguided at best case. Secondly, and only because you brought that issue into the conversation, more times than not, we have large poor populations, not from laziness, but as a result of your free market at work. The economic polarization and separation of wealth in our nation is at the highest since the turn of the 20th century and it is directly related to our system at work.. not people's effort or lack their of. Lastly, you keep saying who is the government to decide or decline people's test or healthcare... yet this is exactly what the private, for profit companies are doing to the population.. why is that ok with you, but jumping the gun on the government is not? See like you're ready to throw the book at the government before they even do anything wrong, while the system you support already enacts these types of policies?
And again, you keep saying healthcare and insurance is a service and a good, yet ignore the fact that it means your putting prices on people and their care.
yeah your right, all those americans that don't have insurance its all because they can't afford it... Do you know all these 40 million personally, buecase i know a ton of people, especailly family they don't have insurce because they choose not to, they would rather pay when something comes up rather than paying insurance monthly, evening the costs out. So quit acting like all these people that don't have health insurance can't afford it. People don't realize how bad a acl or mcl tear is until they get an MRI... One major way of succeeding and getting out of the ghetto is by playing sports and getting college scholorships. Waiting 7- 10 months for a MRI could cost these kids scholorships... Way to look out for the poor minorities.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
So if it was determined that it would be only fair if everyone had a house, a car, and a big screen television, it would be ok? Let's say the government would have to take 75% of your paycheck to provide for these rights, would you be ok with it?
Once again services and goods are not a right. You don't have a right to any else's labor or property.
Rights aren't something that are granted, they are something that cannot be taken away, such as freedom of speech and the right to bear arms (in the US, anyway). If healthcare were to be declared a right, then the right to bear arms would also mean that the government should offer free firearms for every US citizen, or that the government should offer everyone free paper in order to express their ideas.
Haha, wow...
I still can't believe you think having the right to live and the right to own "things" is the same thing.
So then again, why do people have the right to protection in regards to the law?
What about firemen? They show up to a blaze and only put it out based on your ability to pay. It is a service, after all.
Lawyers are a service i guess you shouldnt have the right to one
Glad your not counting in inflation... and also because the methods and quality of health care change constantly and as a result are often not comparable.
Inflation is not the reason healthcare costs are rising - greed is. For example, the most effective form of birth control in the world today just increased in cost from about $450 to $703 - just for the device, not including all the required associated medical care - though it costs only $10 (TEN DOLLARS) to produce. Do you really think they needed to increase wholesale cost overnight from 45 times the production cost to 70 times the production cost because of inflation?? Other forms of birth control - including one that is very similar to this one - didn't feel the need to increase their costs this way due to inflation. (This increase in cost has been quite prohibitive, by the way, making it impossible for many women - poor women, women who don't have health insurance, and women whose for-profit insurance companies refuse to cover such devices - to access the most reliable form of birth control, even through government & philanthropic systems.)
And the idea that the rise is costs is due to an increasing quality of healthcare is laughable. As for-profit healthcare systems & insurers have increased in this country, not only has the cost of medical care increased, but the quality of healthcare has decreased. We now spend more in per capita healthcare costs than any other nation and have some of the poorest health outcomes in the developed world. Even comparing different facilities within the same system, a study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association showed that for-profit renal dialysis centers have a 9% higher mortality rate than non-profit centers, despite having equivalent costs. Other studies have shown that privately-owned hospitals have costs that are 19% higher than non-profit hospitals but 2% higher death rates.
Some sources for you:
Devereaux PJ, Schünemann HJ, Ravindran N, Bhandari M, Garg AX, Choi PTL, et al . Comparison of mortality between private for-profit and private not-for-profit hemodialysis centers: a systematic review and meta-analysis. JAMA 2002;288:2449-57.
Devereaux PJ, Choi PTL, Lacchetti C, Weaver B, Schünemann HJ, Haines T, et al. A systematic review and meta-analysis of studies comparing mortality rates of private for-profit and private not-for-profit hospitals. CMAJ 2002;166:1399-406.
Devereaux PJ, Heels-Ansdell D, Lacchetti C, Haines T, Burns KEA, Cook DJ, et al. Payments for care at private for-profit and private not-for-profit hospitals: a systematic review and meta-analysis. CMAJ 2004;170:1817-24.
Those are all public services that we pay for with out tax money. So yes we should have them. Our money pays for their lives. So why should they not serve the public? I am not sure at what you are trying to get at.
You're saying since we pay police, etc. to provide a service, they should provide it. No shit. But the question is whether we should be paying them to provide it to begin with or whether individuals should be responsible for their own well-being. You have said repeatedly that individuals should be responsible for their own well-being. Therefore, you should be advocating for the abolition of ALL the publicly-funded systems that watch out for our well-being.
Or maybe not give them (welfare,foodstamps,cellphones,section 8 housing) and they can learn what hard work is by getting a job and be able to provide for them selve, including healtcare. (not all poor, but before you get mad, but constant giving them privilges will only breed laziness.)
Many hard-working people in our society - people who worker harder jobs and longer hours than you, even - do not make enough money to provide for themselves. And YOUR lifestyle depends on this system that does not allow for some people to get by on their own no matter how hard they work. Do you advocate for a living wage? Are you willing to pay the extra money for all your goods and services that would be needed to support it? Do you really not understand your culpability in all of this? Unless you fight for good wages and benefits for EVERYONE, YOU are just as responsible for their inability to pay their way as they are. And this doesn't even cover healthcare, which 98% people can't afford to pay out of pocket no matter how good their jobs are.
Your right were all one pink slip away from this , if that would happen i would use my unemployment money to provide for my healthcare and and use my savings for any other itmes that were in need. That may come as a shock to you but we are responsible for what happens to us and i have prepared accordingly.
The fact that you would take my hard-earned money in the form of an unemployment check aside, YOU HAVE NOT PREPARED ACCORDINGLY. Unless you are Bill Gates or Warren Buffet - and I'm guessing your not, since you still have to work - there is no possible way that you have enough money in your savings account to necessarily cover all possibly medical expenses your family could incur. No. Possible. Way. What you don't seem to get is that it doesn't matter how responsible you are; medical bills are without limits. How much money have you saved up so as to be responsible and prepare accordingly? $100,000? $500,000? $1,000,000? $10,000,000?? Guess what? Medical bills can be higher than that in this healthcare system.
So the vewy few accounts of bad healthcare coverage is a a gernealization on the whole system. Its not a prefect system but you are acting like these tragic cases happen all the time and they don't, one story from obama does not encompas the whole population that have healtcare. I have experienced hardships and made it through them just fine.
I'm not sure what "very few accounts of bad healthcare coverage" and "tragic cases" and "story from Obama" you're referring to. I'm not talking about Obama; I'm talking about our healthcare system in general and what I see EVERY SINGLE DAY working in our state hospital. The reality is that healthcare is too expensive for people to pay out-of-pocket and is only getting worse under this for-profit system.
And I don't care what kind of hardships you think you've experienced - if you made it through just fine then you haven't experienced hardship like many people face.
Not sure why you're bringing up "poor minorities" - quite frankly to me sounds a bit racist at worst case and a bit misguided at best case. Secondly, and only because you brought that issue into the conversation, more times than not, we have large poor populations, not from laziness, but as a result of your free market at work. The economic polarization and separation of wealth in our nation is at the highest since the turn of the 20th century and it is directly related to our system at work.. not people's effort or lack their of. Lastly, you keep saying who is the government to decide or decline people's test or healthcare... yet this is exactly what the private, for profit companies are doing to the population.. why is that ok with you, but jumping the gun on the government is not? See like you're ready to throw the book at the government before they even do anything wrong, while the system you support already enacts these types of policies?
And again, you keep saying healthcare and insurance is a service and a good, yet ignore the fact that it means your putting prices on people and their care.quote]
Because, name one gov run program that runs efficiently. I support no healthcare system, please find in my posts where i said i do. But i would much rather have a private service (with changes) than a gov one. And i am racist now because i said poor minorities???
It was an example, and i see you did not comment on.
Healthcare is a service and good, are you disputing that???
So should we make all organic foods available for everybody to afford since it is better for your health? Should we make that free also because some people can afford healthly food.
Great post SCB! Here connection is almost of a person winning the lotto telling everyone will be fine, cause they won.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
I didn't say you were a racist, I said it comes off as a that a bit with your comment. Minorities have nothing to do with any of this, and quite frankly all you did was take some far fetched extreme example and try and make it the prototypical example.. which is ridiculous. Many of your examples are merely things you believe or have experienced yet don't and aren't the basic for our society as a whole in any manner. And please refer to SCB's last post as he shoots your idea about rising costs better than I could.
And again, you keep saying healthcare and insurance is a service and a good, yet ignore the fact that it means your putting prices on people and their care.quote]
Because, name one gov run program that runs efficiently. I support no healthcare system, please find in my posts where i said i do. But i would much rather have a private service (with changes) than a gov one. And i am racist now because i said poor minorities???
It was an example, and i see you did not comment on.
Healthcare is a service and good, are you disputing that???
So should we make all organic foods available for everybody to afford since it is better for your health? Should we make that free also because some people can afford healthly food.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Please tell me what is not a right???
Why is food not a right?
WHy is shelter not a right?
According to the most widely accepted list of rights in the world, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which was agreed to by the United States:
(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
Further, according to the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, which has been ratified by 160 nations & which the U.S. signed but didn't ratify:
1. The States Parties to the present Covenant recognize the right of everyone to an adequate standard of living for himself and his family, including adequate food, clothing and housing, and to the continuous improvement of living conditions. The States Parties will take appropriate steps to ensure the realization of this right...
fundamental right of everyone to be free from hunger...
Article 12
1. The States Parties to the present Covenant recognize the right of everyone to the enjoyment of the highest attainable standard of physical and mental health.
2. The steps to be taken by the States Parties to the present Covenant to achieve the full realization of this right shall include those necessary for:
a. The provision for the reduction of the stillbirth-rate and of infant mortality and for the healthy development of the child;
b. The improvement of all aspects of environmental and industrial hygiene;
c. The prevention, treatment and control of epidemic, endemic, occupational and other diseases;
d. The creation of conditions which would assure to all medical service and medical attention in the event of sickness.
It's not up to me, you, the government, the insurance companies, or people's bank accounts to decide whose medical care is more urgently needed - and I never said it was. (READ people, READ!!) Medical care should be left entirely up to the medical professionals - and in this current system for which you're advocating, it's not.
So you think the ER line should put people in order of wealth? Amazing. Corporate America's most successful product - sheep. You know you wouldn't be at the front of that line, right? I really hope some day you get to experience such a system.
Yes, food is a right. This is why we have programs like food stamps. Now I'm sure you have some clever rebuttal that you've been waiting for the chance to use for the past few days.
It is up to the medical professional and they are providing you a service that you have to pay for. The ER line should be on who needs to most care, but if one pays alot for their health care should they not get the same timely care, since they are actually paying for that good and service? You should receive that care that you can provide for your self. And please provide me a case where someone without insurance was turned down emergency care please?
I can't decipher what you're trying to say here and I never said people without insurance are turned down emergency care. (Again... READ people, READ!!!)
reasons why the cost increases:
The current overuse of medical resources by patients, malpractice suits, the Impact of Third-Party Payment on Medical Spending.
I never said there weren't poor harder working people, working more hours than me. Sure there are. But we also all have the same opportunity to get whatever jobs we wanted. Its not my fault nor anybody else but theirs, They choose that job and field of education or lack there of. And i know many people personally that pay out of pock and have no insurance. And it is easily affordable, now they have no disease, or health issues, but some people are lucky like that, and other are not.
SCB - you do know that unemployment comes out of our pay checks right??? So i am entitled to unemployment, since i was paying into it when i am working. So yes I have prepared accordinly. And no i don't have the money to pay for serious medical expenses if i was unemployed. But there are many programs that you can get healthcare while unemployed. So there are options.
Also i have good health care coverage and i pay around $140 a pay check for it. So what less than 300 a month. This inclueds eye and dental. Are you telling me people can't afford 300 dollars a month?
And because i was able to rise out of my hardships makes mine less than people who don't, is that what your saying?
Because, name one gov run program that runs efficiently.
Again with the "I believed the bullshit hype" ignorance. NO ONE IS ADVOCATING FOR A GOVERNMENT-RUN HEALTHCARE SYSTEM. People are advocating for a government-PAID healthcare system. The government already pays for 60% of medical care in this country anyway - why not kick in the other 40% to save money?
I support no healthcare system, please find in my posts where i said i do. But i would much rather have a private service (with changes) than a gov one.
Please read your first sentence and then refer to your second sentence.
SCB, this seems to be another thread where it has winded out to me and you going back and forth. I really respect your opinions and educating answers on the subject. Someday we will agree on something, but that topic has yet to come up. thanks for having respectful answers and not emotional ones.
Great post SCB! Here connection is almost of a person winning the lotto telling everyone will be fine, cause they won.
Thanks. I was going to say the same to you, but you have too many great posts for me to keep up! Great analogy, by the way! :thumbup:
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
reasons why the cost increases:
The current overuse of medical resources by patients, malpractice suits, the Impact of Third-Party Payment on Medical Spending.
Are you quoting something else here?
1. Since you're saying the overuse of medical resources by patients is one reason medical costs are increasing, does that mean you think patients should be restricted from over-using medical resources??
2. Yes, malpractice suits are a big part of the problem. Do you know what would curb them? Single-payer healthcare.
3. What do you mean by "Impact of Third-Party Payment on Medical Spending"? It sounds like you're agreeing that it's the insurance companies' fault that medical costs are increasing.
I never said there weren't poor harder working people, working more hours than me. Sure there are. But we also all have the same opportunity to get whatever jobs we wanted. Its not my fault nor anybody else but theirs, They choose that job and field of education or lack there of.
The part I bolded is not true. Regardless, let's say everyone really had the opportunity to get the good jobs and they all chose to do that. Then who would do all those necessary "worse" jobs, with unlivable wages and no health insurance? SOMEBODY has to do those jobs. What about those people??
And i know many people personally that pay out of pock and have no insurance. And it is easily affordable, now they have no disease, or health issues, but some people are lucky like that, and other are not.
And no one knows whether or not they are one of the lucky ones, so everyone needs to be treated as if they're not.
SCB - you do know that unemployment comes out of our pay checks right??? So i am entitled to unemployment, since i was paying into it when i am working.
Yes, I'm aware of that. I'm also aware that if you and I both pay unemployment and I never collect it and you do, then you're taking my money.
So yes I have prepared accordinly. And no i don't have the money to pay for serious medical expenses if i was unemployed. But there are many programs that you can get healthcare while unemployed. So there are options.
Your first two sentences contradict one another. If you don't have the money to pay for serious medical expenses - and since you have no idea whether you will ever need to pay for serious medical expenses - then you have not, in fact, prepared accordingly. I'm sure you've done the best you can. But my entire point is: That's not good enough - not under a private system, anyway.
So what are these programs and do you support them? Medicare is for old people and disabled people. Medicaid is for children and pregnant women. And you don't seem to support these systems anyway. As for everyone else, they're generally fucked. The new healthcare reforms are making an attempt to close this gap to provide the care you seem to think everyone already has, but I thought you were against those. I think you greatly overestimate these "options" of which you speak.
Also i have good health care coverage and i pay around $140 a pay check for it. So what less than 300 a month. This inclueds eye and dental. Are you telling me people can't afford 300 dollars a month?
And because i was able to rise out of my hardships makes mine less than people who don't, is that what your saying?
I pay $180/month for health/eye/dental insurance just for me. And I have some of the best insurance of anyone I know. That's great for both of us that we have good health insurance - but it's absolutely not relevant to this conversation. Not everyone has such good insurance. So your suggestion that anyone could get good health insurance for themselves and their families for just $300 a month is absurd. Don't you understand that other people have different experiences than you do??
My cousin is divorced and has 4 kids. Her ex has to pay their health insurance as part of his child support (meaning it takes away from the money that would have gone directly to her). He pays $900/month for just the four kids - that doesn't even include himself, his new wife, or their 2 kids. And guess what? That only pays 60% of the bills. My cousin has to pay the other 40% of everything - medications, doctor's visits, surgeries, etc. - and one of her kids has health problems. Their experience is vastly different than yours.
And even if it really did only cost $300 to insure your family, $300 is too much money for a lot of people.
As for hardships, I'm saying that no matter how bad your hardships are, there are always people whose hardships are worse. Also, many hardships are harder to get out of than others and many people have less opportunity to get out of them. You just can't keep applying your experience to the lives of everyone else.
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our doctor's aren't bound in chains if that's what you think, forcibly treating patients on an inhumane basis
Rights are concepts, not actual goods & services.
If by similar you meant we have about a tenth of the people?
Also, you keep saying we're not putting a price on people and people's health yet keep mentioning how healthcare is goods and services. Contradictory.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Do you think it's right for you to get an MRI right away causing someone else who needs it much more urgently to have to wait too long? Do you think it's right for this determination to be made based on who has more money? If so, do you think ER care should be provided the same way - we should triage people according to their bank statements rather than by medical necessity?
I'm glad you can laugh. They make me cry.
1. How can people have such a lack of understanding of our healthcare system?? (It wouldn't be so bad if they didn't actually think they understood it.)
2. Heidi - Healthcare costs are INCREASING under this "free market" system you support, not decreasing.
3. Heidi - Do you or do you not believe we should have police departments, fire departments, health inspectors (like for restaurants), etc.?
4. I think we should save time and just kill all the poor people.
5. Much as some people like to hate on the poor, this really isn't even about poor people. The vast majority of the American public cannot afford to pay out-of-pocket for their own healthcare. So, Heidi, you are just one pink slip away from being unable to access medical care for your family (two pink slips, since your wife works). If that were to happen, would you refuse Medicaid for your children?
6. Sometimes I wish people actually would experience hardship so they can get a clue. Does that make me a bad person?
Why is food not a right?
WHy is shelter not a right?
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
It's not up to me, you, the government, the insurance companies, or people's bank accounts to decide whose medical care is more urgently needed - and I never said it was. (READ people, READ!!) Medical care should be left entirely up to the medical professionals - and in this current system for which you're advocating, it's not.
So you think the ER line should put people in order of wealth? Amazing. Corporate America's most successful product - sheep. You know you wouldn't be at the front of that line, right? I really hope some day you get to experience such a system.
Yes, food is a right. This is why we have programs like food stamps. Now I'm sure you have some clever rebuttal that you've been waiting for the chance to use for the past few days.
Once again services and goods are not a right. You don't have a right to any else's labor or property.
Rights aren't something that are granted, they are something that cannot be taken away, such as freedom of speech and the right to bear arms (in the US, anyway). If healthcare were to be declared a right, then the right to bear arms would also mean that the government should offer free firearms for every US citizen, or that the government should offer everyone free paper in order to express their ideas.
And again, you keep saying healthcare and insurance is a service and a good, yet ignore the fact that it means your putting prices on people and their care.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
I still can't believe you think having the right to live and the right to own "things" is the same thing.
So then again, why do people have the right to protection in regards to the law?
What about firemen? They show up to a blaze and only put it out based on your ability to pay. It is a service, after all.
Lawyers are a service i guess you shouldnt have the right to one
This sentence is not comprehensible.
Inflation is not the reason healthcare costs are rising - greed is. For example, the most effective form of birth control in the world today just increased in cost from about $450 to $703 - just for the device, not including all the required associated medical care - though it costs only $10 (TEN DOLLARS) to produce. Do you really think they needed to increase wholesale cost overnight from 45 times the production cost to 70 times the production cost because of inflation?? Other forms of birth control - including one that is very similar to this one - didn't feel the need to increase their costs this way due to inflation. (This increase in cost has been quite prohibitive, by the way, making it impossible for many women - poor women, women who don't have health insurance, and women whose for-profit insurance companies refuse to cover such devices - to access the most reliable form of birth control, even through government & philanthropic systems.)
And the idea that the rise is costs is due to an increasing quality of healthcare is laughable. As for-profit healthcare systems & insurers have increased in this country, not only has the cost of medical care increased, but the quality of healthcare has decreased. We now spend more in per capita healthcare costs than any other nation and have some of the poorest health outcomes in the developed world. Even comparing different facilities within the same system, a study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association showed that for-profit renal dialysis centers have a 9% higher mortality rate than non-profit centers, despite having equivalent costs. Other studies have shown that privately-owned hospitals have costs that are 19% higher than non-profit hospitals but 2% higher death rates.
Some sources for you:
Devereaux PJ, Schünemann HJ, Ravindran N, Bhandari M, Garg AX, Choi PTL, et al . Comparison of mortality between private for-profit and private not-for-profit hemodialysis centers: a systematic review and meta-analysis. JAMA 2002;288:2449-57.
Devereaux PJ, Choi PTL, Lacchetti C, Weaver B, Schünemann HJ, Haines T, et al. A systematic review and meta-analysis of studies comparing mortality rates of private for-profit and private not-for-profit hospitals. CMAJ 2002;166:1399-406.
Devereaux PJ, Heels-Ansdell D, Lacchetti C, Haines T, Burns KEA, Cook DJ, et al. Payments for care at private for-profit and private not-for-profit hospitals: a systematic review and meta-analysis. CMAJ 2004;170:1817-24.
You're saying since we pay police, etc. to provide a service, they should provide it. No shit. But the question is whether we should be paying them to provide it to begin with or whether individuals should be responsible for their own well-being. You have said repeatedly that individuals should be responsible for their own well-being. Therefore, you should be advocating for the abolition of ALL the publicly-funded systems that watch out for our well-being.
Many hard-working people in our society - people who worker harder jobs and longer hours than you, even - do not make enough money to provide for themselves. And YOUR lifestyle depends on this system that does not allow for some people to get by on their own no matter how hard they work. Do you advocate for a living wage? Are you willing to pay the extra money for all your goods and services that would be needed to support it? Do you really not understand your culpability in all of this? Unless you fight for good wages and benefits for EVERYONE, YOU are just as responsible for their inability to pay their way as they are. And this doesn't even cover healthcare, which 98% people can't afford to pay out of pocket no matter how good their jobs are.
The fact that you would take my hard-earned money in the form of an unemployment check aside, YOU HAVE NOT PREPARED ACCORDINGLY. Unless you are Bill Gates or Warren Buffet - and I'm guessing your not, since you still have to work - there is no possible way that you have enough money in your savings account to necessarily cover all possibly medical expenses your family could incur. No. Possible. Way. What you don't seem to get is that it doesn't matter how responsible you are; medical bills are without limits. How much money have you saved up so as to be responsible and prepare accordingly? $100,000? $500,000? $1,000,000? $10,000,000?? Guess what? Medical bills can be higher than that in this healthcare system.
I'm not sure what "very few accounts of bad healthcare coverage" and "tragic cases" and "story from Obama" you're referring to. I'm not talking about Obama; I'm talking about our healthcare system in general and what I see EVERY SINGLE DAY working in our state hospital. The reality is that healthcare is too expensive for people to pay out-of-pocket and is only getting worse under this for-profit system.
And I don't care what kind of hardships you think you've experienced - if you made it through just fine then you haven't experienced hardship like many people face.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
According to the most widely accepted list of rights in the world, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which was agreed to by the United States:
Further, according to the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, which has been ratified by 160 nations & which the U.S. signed but didn't ratify:
I can't decipher what you're trying to say here and I never said people without insurance are turned down emergency care. (Again... READ people, READ!!!)
The current overuse of medical resources by patients, malpractice suits, the Impact of Third-Party Payment on Medical Spending.
I never said there weren't poor harder working people, working more hours than me. Sure there are. But we also all have the same opportunity to get whatever jobs we wanted. Its not my fault nor anybody else but theirs, They choose that job and field of education or lack there of. And i know many people personally that pay out of pock and have no insurance. And it is easily affordable, now they have no disease, or health issues, but some people are lucky like that, and other are not.
SCB - you do know that unemployment comes out of our pay checks right??? So i am entitled to unemployment, since i was paying into it when i am working. So yes I have prepared accordinly. And no i don't have the money to pay for serious medical expenses if i was unemployed. But there are many programs that you can get healthcare while unemployed. So there are options.
Also i have good health care coverage and i pay around $140 a pay check for it. So what less than 300 a month. This inclueds eye and dental. Are you telling me people can't afford 300 dollars a month?
And because i was able to rise out of my hardships makes mine less than people who don't, is that what your saying?
Again with the "I believed the bullshit hype" ignorance. NO ONE IS ADVOCATING FOR A GOVERNMENT-RUN HEALTHCARE SYSTEM. People are advocating for a government-PAID healthcare system. The government already pays for 60% of medical care in this country anyway - why not kick in the other 40% to save money?
Please read your first sentence and then refer to your second sentence.
Thanks. I was going to say the same to you, but you have too many great posts for me to keep up! Great analogy, by the way! :thumbup:
Says the dude who wants an MRI on demand.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Are you quoting something else here?
1. Since you're saying the overuse of medical resources by patients is one reason medical costs are increasing, does that mean you think patients should be restricted from over-using medical resources??
2. Yes, malpractice suits are a big part of the problem. Do you know what would curb them? Single-payer healthcare.
3. What do you mean by "Impact of Third-Party Payment on Medical Spending"? It sounds like you're agreeing that it's the insurance companies' fault that medical costs are increasing.
The part I bolded is not true. Regardless, let's say everyone really had the opportunity to get the good jobs and they all chose to do that. Then who would do all those necessary "worse" jobs, with unlivable wages and no health insurance? SOMEBODY has to do those jobs. What about those people??
And no one knows whether or not they are one of the lucky ones, so everyone needs to be treated as if they're not.
Yes, I'm aware of that. I'm also aware that if you and I both pay unemployment and I never collect it and you do, then you're taking my money.
Your first two sentences contradict one another. If you don't have the money to pay for serious medical expenses - and since you have no idea whether you will ever need to pay for serious medical expenses - then you have not, in fact, prepared accordingly. I'm sure you've done the best you can. But my entire point is: That's not good enough - not under a private system, anyway.
So what are these programs and do you support them? Medicare is for old people and disabled people. Medicaid is for children and pregnant women. And you don't seem to support these systems anyway. As for everyone else, they're generally fucked. The new healthcare reforms are making an attempt to close this gap to provide the care you seem to think everyone already has, but I thought you were against those. I think you greatly overestimate these "options" of which you speak.
I pay $180/month for health/eye/dental insurance just for me. And I have some of the best insurance of anyone I know. That's great for both of us that we have good health insurance - but it's absolutely not relevant to this conversation. Not everyone has such good insurance. So your suggestion that anyone could get good health insurance for themselves and their families for just $300 a month is absurd. Don't you understand that other people have different experiences than you do??
My cousin is divorced and has 4 kids. Her ex has to pay their health insurance as part of his child support (meaning it takes away from the money that would have gone directly to her). He pays $900/month for just the four kids - that doesn't even include himself, his new wife, or their 2 kids. And guess what? That only pays 60% of the bills. My cousin has to pay the other 40% of everything - medications, doctor's visits, surgeries, etc. - and one of her kids has health problems. Their experience is vastly different than yours.
And even if it really did only cost $300 to insure your family, $300 is too much money for a lot of people.
As for hardships, I'm saying that no matter how bad your hardships are, there are always people whose hardships are worse. Also, many hardships are harder to get out of than others and many people have less opportunity to get out of them. You just can't keep applying your experience to the lives of everyone else.