I haven't seen to many chicks wearing minis in some of the arab states. Or walking with a man who isn't their husband. Or hanging out with men at a social get together. Or praying in the same mosque with the men. With all that in mind I would say that France can make the law. Whether they "understand" or not.
I'm curious what arab states you've been to. or are you basing this off of hollywood movies and media portrayals?
obviously France CAN make the law. I don't think anyone is disputing whether or not they have the physical ability to. we're discussing the moral issue here.
Unfortunately outlaw, even flow is right. Even in what some would consider quite moderate/progressive arab countries (eg morocco). I have friends living this - educated young single women....
I haven't seen to many chicks wearing minis in some of the arab states. Or walking with a man who isn't their husband. Or hanging out with men at a social get together. Or praying in the same mosque with the men. With all that in mind I would say that France can make the law. Whether they "understand" or not.
I'm curious what arab states you've been to. or are you basing this off of hollywood movies and media portrayals?
obviously France CAN make the law. I don't think anyone is disputing whether or not they have the physical ability to. we're discussing the moral issue here.
Unfortunately outlaw, even flow is right. Even in what some would consider quite moderate/progressive arab countries (eg morocco). I have friends living this - educated young single women....
lol, no, he's not. i've lived in arab countries before and I could tell from what he said that he's basing it off of bullshit, it's a complete exaggeration
thing is, i fail to see how this is even relevant. mini skirts may not be common in arab states but they aren't banned. and even in some like saudi arabia if you want to argue that you can get in trouble for wearing a mini skirt, such arab countries are under brutal, oppressive dictatorships right now. is france not a liberal democracy? if france releases a statement saying they are changing from being a liberal democracy where people enjoy all equal rights to a brutal, oppressive secular regime, that would be a different story. the idea is that a specific group of people are being targeted here based on their inability to express their religious observations...
to all the people who are concerned about the 'security' aspect, i hope you are just as concerned about the people who wear sunglasses and hoodies pulled up on their head, because i sure as shit couldn't tell you what they actually looked liked underneath either.
security is a weak excuse. it's Islamophobia, that's what it is. you are scared. people fear what they don't understand.
i think the majority of us agree that the only security issue is where you need to be identified (banks, airports, passport photos etc)
they can wear whatever they want otherwise...they could walk around with a giant cardboard box on their head for all i care (which in my opinion is just as ridiculous as the veil... as for me the issue isn't what they wear but the fact that they are forced or told that they must wear it... what a tradition! all women must cover their faces in public :roll: )
do you really believe honestly, that the majority of conservatives and bigots who applaud this move care about women's rights? the fact is that this law denies women the right to choose what they wear, and that is every bit as wrong as men denying women the right to choose what they wear.
By "us" i meant the people commenting in this thread... I don't mean most of us "conservatives and bigots"... i'm not a conservative or bigot... Come to think, I don't even know exactly what you're trying to convince me of, because all I was pointing out is you're preaching to the wrong crowd... ie, most of us have already said veils are just as much a security issue in banks and airports as sunglasses and hoods... I was just saying, most of us agree with you on that... :shock:
Unfortunately outlaw, even flow is right. Even in what some would consider quite moderate/progressive arab countries (eg morocco). I have friends living this - educated young single women....
lol, no, he's not. i've lived in arab countries before and I could tell from what he said that he's basing it off of bullshit,..
Well, I guess you can tell my friend Hamida in Morocco who has to have her brother sign her lease because she is a single woman and no landlord would let her do it that it's complete bullshit. I guess you can also tell my friend Karima in Algeria that the next time she gets spat on because she is wearing a skirt too short that it's bullshit. Or maybe when same Karima goes in a cafe with a man that is not a male relative gets insulted and thrown out and, yes, spat on again that it's bullshit.
I don't know if you're a woman or man, white or arab but the examples above are real ones and not uncommon for single arab women. I could walk around in a mini-skirt & low cleavage with as many men as I want in morocco without any problems. But that's because the men would think that I'm a whore anyway so why bother. I know North Africa very, very well. Whilst Morocco, for example, has gone a long, long way for women's rights, it still has a long way to go. Both from a legislative and 'tradition' point of view.
the identification issue has been discussed, so apart from that, what about the Muslim women who wear the veil by choice in their normal day to day activities. what should we tell them?
that they are deluded? that they lack the ability to make this decision for themselves because they have been brainwashed? that they are simply aiding in their own oppression? that laws like this are designed to "liberate" them?
the fact is that this law denies women the right to choose what they wear, and isn't that every bit as wrong as men denying women the right to choose what they wear???
the identification issue has been discussed, so apart from that, what about the Muslim women who wear the veil by choice in their normal day to day activities. what should we tell them?
that they are deluded? that they lack the ability to make this decision for themselves because they have been brainwashed? that they are simply aiding in their own oppression? that laws like this are designed to "liberate" them?
the fact is that this law denies women the right to choose what they wear, and isn't that every bit as wrong as men denying women the right to choose what they wear???
yes theyre deluded. the reason they need to cover up is to stop the temptation of men. when are we going to stop kowtowing to this kind of bullshit. if men cant handle a bit of skin then lets deal with THEM, lets not make women cover up to satisfy some stupid men and their lack of control, ok??? women have to stand up for themselves and say , you know what guys?? it is not acceptable that we are made to cover up cause yuo cant control your urges. and dont get me started on the religious aspect of this bullshit.
hear my name
take a good look
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hold my hand
lie beside me
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But there are some women who cover their heads or faces because they believe it is religious, no?
I haven't met any. Those I know cover because if they don't, they will get abuse from their men folk. For them, is self-preservation. This 'tradition' of full covering dates from before Islam.
Instead of looking at France, let's look at Afghanistan for example. Before the Taliban were a force to reckon with, women were quite liberated and the chadri was hardly seen. Since, the Taliban are enforcing their rule to wear it and women who never wore one, now do - for their own safety (not a legal/religious requirement). For the western world, what has happened to women in Afghanistan was seen as a huge step backwards for them - the full covering being a symbol of womens' oppression and one of the obvious signs of the Taliban's suppressive regime. To the other 'extreme' Tunisia has BANNED the wearing of the veil in state institutions, schools, etc (though not in the street). Whereas in countries such as Afghanistan, Iran, etc. women are harrassed if not covered, in Tunisia they can be harrassed if they are. What is right?
the identification issue has been discussed, so apart from that, what about the Muslim women who wear the veil by choice in their normal day to day activities. what should we tell them?
that they are deluded? that they lack the ability to make this decision for themselves because they have been brainwashed? that they are simply aiding in their own oppression? that laws like this are designed to "liberate" them?
the fact is that this law denies women the right to choose what they wear, and isn't that every bit as wrong as men denying women the right to choose what they wear???
yes theyre deluded. the reason they need to cover up is to stop the temptation of men. when are we going to stop kowtowing to this kind of bullshit. if men cant handle a bit of skin then lets deal with THEM, lets not make women cover up to satisfy some stupid men and their lack of control, ok??? women have to stand up for themselves and say , you know what guys?? it is not acceptable that we are made to cover up cause yuo cant control your urges. and dont get me started on the religious aspect of this bullshit.
i said the Muslim women/girls who cover up by choice. their choice. not because someone has told them to. not because some man expects them to. who are we to tell them what they should or shouldn't do or how they should or should not feel.
the identification issue has been discussed, so apart from that, what about the Muslim women who wear the veil by choice in their normal day to day activities. what should we tell them?
that they are deluded? that they lack the ability to make this decision for themselves because they have been brainwashed? that they are simply aiding in their own oppression? that laws like this are designed to "liberate" them?
the fact is that this law denies women the right to choose what they wear, and isn't that every bit as wrong as men denying women the right to choose what they wear???
The Qur'an requires modest dress equally from men and women (should we be looking at the religious requirements).
TA - if the woman wears the burqa ENTIRELY by choice, fair enough. Most of them don't though.
the identification issue has been discussed, so apart from that, what about the Muslim women who wear the veil by choice in their normal day to day activities. what should we tell them?
that they are deluded? that they lack the ability to make this decision for themselves because they have been brainwashed? that they are simply aiding in their own oppression? that laws like this are designed to "liberate" them?
the fact is that this law denies women the right to choose what they wear, and isn't that every bit as wrong as men denying women the right to choose what they wear???
The Qur'an requires modest dress equally from men and women (should we be looking at the religious requirements).
TA - if the woman wears the burqa ENTIRELY by choice, fair enough. Most of them don't though.
that's the point i was making. the law will apply to everyone. not just the ones who feel 'forced' to wear the burqa.
the identification issue has been discussed, so apart from that, what about the Muslim women who wear the veil by choice in their normal day to day activities. what should we tell them?
that they are deluded? that they lack the ability to make this decision for themselves because they have been brainwashed? that they are simply aiding in their own oppression? that laws like this are designed to "liberate" them?
the fact is that this law denies women the right to choose what they wear, and isn't that every bit as wrong as men denying women the right to choose what they wear???
yes theyre deluded. the reason they need to cover up is to stop the temptation of men. when are we going to stop kowtowing to this kind of bullshit. if men cant handle a bit of skin then lets deal with THEM, lets not make women cover up to satisfy some stupid men and their lack of control, ok??? women have to stand up for themselves and say , you know what guys?? it is not acceptable that we are made to cover up cause yuo cant control your urges. and dont get me started on the religious aspect of this bullshit.
i said the Muslim women/girls who cover up by choice. their choice. not because someone has told them to. not because some man expects them to. who are we to tell them what they should or shouldn't do or how they should or should not feel.
by choice? bwahahahahaha. what choice would that be??? the choice supposedly laid out in the quran, is that the choice you speak of???? if you think that 'someone' has not 'told' them whether or not to cover up then im afraid youre as deluded as they are. ýou did notice you said MUSLIM women/girls, right? in this context choice is oxymoronic.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
that's the point i was making. the law will apply to everyone. not just the ones who feel 'forced' to wear the burqa.
That's the problem with laws. Again, this law does not specify muslim veil but all face covering in public places (like in Belgium) but we know the french government (amongst others) has spoken out about full covering and how it was seen in the country (oppression of women).
I worked with arab women from 'traditional' households which, under Belgian law, were victims of domestic abuse but, for the traditional arab male, their ways were perfectly normal. The mother of one of my friends was covered from head to toe from age 11 to 78. When aged 78 her husband died she had the option of staying put but living with her youngest brother (and thus still under the thumb of a male). She chose to uproot herself, leave all friends, etc to move to Belgium to be with her daughter and experience a bit of freedom. She was ecstatic she did not have to wear the burka anymore - she felt so liberated (and even wanted to wear a short skirt!!!).
It's a difficult issue. Does one alienate a few for the 'better' of the majority? A poster said that one needs to adapt to the ways of the host country. How far does this 'adaptation' need to go? I cover myself a bit more (ie shoulders, scarf...) if I go to a country where that's the norm, should we expect the reverse?
by choice? bwahahahahaha. what choice would that be??? the choice supposedly laid out in the quran, is that the choice you speak of???? if you think that 'someone' has not 'told' them whether or not to cover up then im afraid youre as deluded as they are. ýou did notice you said MUSLIM women/girls, right? in this context choice is oxymoronic.
no, you said they're deluded, and the reason they need to cover up is to stop the temptation of men. i said some women choose. it's not always about men not being able to handle a bit of skin..to use your words.
HEBAH AHMED assessed the weather before she stepped out of her minivan. “It’s windy,” she said with a sigh, tucking a loose bit of hair into her scarf. Her younger sister, Sarah, watched out the window as dust devils danced across the parking lot. “Oh, great,” she said, “I’m going to look like the flying nun.”
Hebah, who is 32, and Sarah, 28, do wear religious attire, but of the Islamic sort: a loose outer garment called a jilbab; a khimar, a head covering that drapes to the fingertips; and a niqab, a scarf that covers most of the face. Before the shopping trip, they consulted by phone to make sure they didn’t wear the same color. “Otherwise, we start to look like a cult,” Sarah explained.
When Hebah yanked open the van’s door, the wind filled her loose-fitting garments like a sail. Her 6-year-old daughter, Khadijah Leseman, laughed. Hebah unloaded Khadijah and her 2-year-old son, Saulih, while struggling to hold her khimar and niqab in place.
The wind whipped Sarah’s navy-blue jilbab like a sheet on a clothesline as she wrangled a shopping cart. Her 3-year-old son, Eesa Soliman, stayed close at her side, lost in the billowing fabric.
Most people in the parking lot stopped to stare.
If the sisters were aware that all eyes were on them, they gave no signs. In the supermarket, they ignored the curious glances in the produce section, the startled double takes by the baked goods and the scowls near the cereal. They glided along the aisles, stopping to compare prices on spaghetti sauce.
Two Hispanic children gasped and ran behind their mother. “Why are they dressed that way?” the girl asked her mother in Spanish. “Islam,” the woman said, also telling the child that the women were from Saudi Arabia.
Hebah, who is from Tennessee, smiled at the girl, but all that could be seen of her face were the lines around the eyes that signaled a grin. After nearly a decade under the veil, she and her sister know full well that they are a source of fascination — and many other reactions — to those around them.
Hebah said she has been kicked off planes by nervous flight attendants and shouted down in a Wal-Mart by angry shoppers who called her a terrorist. Her sister was threatened by a stranger in a picnic area who claimed he had killed a woman in Afghanistan “who looked just like” her. When she joined the Curves gym near her home in Edgewood, N.M., some members threatened to quit. “They said Islamists were taking over,” Ms. Ahmed said.
Her choice to become so identifiably Muslim even rattled her parents, immigrants from Egypt.
“I was more surprised than anything,” said her father, Mohamed Ahmed, who lives in Houston with her mother, Mervat Ahmed. He said he raised his daughters with a deep sense of pride about their Muslim background, but nevertheless did not expect them to wear a hijab, a head scarf, let alone a niqab.
Raised in what she described as a “minimally religious” household by parents who wore typical American clothes, Hebah used to think that women who wore a niqab were crazy, she said.
“It looked like they were suffocating,” she said. “I thought, ‘There’s no way God meant for us to walk around the earth that way, so why would anyone do that to themselves?’ ” Now many people ask that same question of her.
HEBAH AHMED (her first name is pronounced HIB-ah) was born in Chattanooga, raised in Nashville and Houston, and speaks with a slight drawl. She played basketball for her Catholic high school, earned a master’s in mechanical engineering and once worked in the Gulf of Mexico oilfields.
She is not a Muslim Everywoman; it is not a role she would ever claim for herself. Her story is hers alone. But she was willing to spend several days with a reporter to give an idea of what American life looks like from behind the veil, a garment that has become a powerful symbol of culture clash.
All that’s visible of Ms. Ahmed when she ventures into mixed company are her deep brown eyes, some faint freckles where the sun hits the top of her nose, and her hands. She used to leave the house in jeans and T-shirt (she still can, under her jilbab), but that all changed after the 9/11 attacks. It shook her deeply that the people who had committed the horrifying acts had identified themselves as Muslims.
“I just kept thinking ‘Why would they do this in the name of Islam?’ ” she said. “Does my religion really say to do those horrible things?”
So she read the Koran and other Islamic texts and began attending Friday prayers at her local Islamic Center. While she found nothing that justified the attacks, she did find meaning in prayers about strength, piety and resolve. She saw them as guideposts for navigating the world.
“I was really questioning my life’s purpose,” Ms. Ahmed said. “And everything about the bigger picture. I just wasn’t about me and my career anymore.”
She also reacted to a backlash against Islam and the news that many American Muslim women were not covering for fear of being targeted. “It was all so wrong,” she said. She took it upon herself to provide a positive example of her embattled faith, in a way that was hard to ignore.
So on Sept. 17, 2001, she wore a hijab into the laboratory where she worked, along with her business attire.
“A co-worker said, ‘You need to wrap a big ol’ American flag around your head so people know what side you’re on,’ ” Ms. Ahmed said. “From then on, they never let up.”
Three months later, she quit her job and started wearing a niqab, covering her face from view when in the presence of men other than her husband.
“I do this because I want to be closer to God, I want to please him and I want to live a modest lifestyle,” said Ms. Ahmed, who asked that her appearance without a veil not be described. “I want to be tested in that way. The niqab is a constant reminder to do the right thing. It’s God-consciousness in my face.”
But there were secular motivations, too. In her job, she worked with all-male teams on oil rigs and in labs.
“No matter how smart I was, I wasn’t getting the respect I wanted,” she said. “They still hit on me, made crude remarks and even smacked me on the butt a couple times.”
Wearing the niqab is “liberating,” she said. “They have to deal with my brain because I don’t give them any other choice.”
Her first run-in with public opinion came, ordinarily enough, while driving.
“A woman in the car next to me was waving, honking, motioning for me to roll down my window,” she said. “I tried to ignore her, but finally, we both had to stop at a light. I rolled down the window and braced myself. Then she said ‘Excuse me, your burqa is caught in your door.’ That broke the ice.”
Her sister Sarah started wearing a niqab around the same time, while completing her engineering degree at Rice University. The learning curve was steep; both sisters found they needed to carry straws for drinking in public, but eating was another story. Once Sarah forgot she was wearing a niqab and took a bite of an ice cream cone. “Humiliating,” she said, shaking her head.
Breathing wasn’t as difficult as they had imagined, but Hebah had a hard time contending with all the material around her.
“I kept losing things or leaving them behind,” she said. “But it’s like when you first put on high heels or a bra. It’s not the most comfortable thing, but there’s a purpose, and you believe that purpose outweighs the discomfort.”
WOMEN who cover totally, called niqabis, make up a tiny sliver of the estimated three million to seven million Muslims in the United States, yet they have come to embody much of what Westerners find foreign about Islam. Hidden under yards of cloth, they are the most visceral reminders of the differences between East and West, and an indisputable sign that Islam is weaving its way into American culture.
In France, President Nicolas Sarkozy is backing a bill to ban women from publicly wearing the niqab and its more conservative cousin, the burqa, which covers the wearer’s eyes with a mesh panel. Similar legislation is being considered in the province of Quebec and Belgium.
In the United States, there have been flashpoints: in 2006, Ginnnah Muhammad, a plaintiff in a small claims case in Detroit, refused the judge’s request to take off her niqab during court proceedings and so her case was thrown out. She later found herself in front of the Michigan Supreme Court, arguing for her right to wear the niqab in court. The high court upheld the judge’s action.
Ms. Muhammad and five other American niqabis were interviewed for this article, in addition to the Ahmed sisters. All of them made the decision to wear the niqab when they were single. And, although the Muslim faith does not require women to cover their faces, all believe the niqab gave them a bit of extra credit in the eyes of God. “The more clothes you wear, the closer you are to God,” Ms. Muhammad said.
Menahal Begawala, 28, was raised in Queens, the daughter of Indian immigrants. She began covering her face at age 19. “I suppose there is some part of me that wants to make a statement, ‘I am a Muslim,’ ” she said.
She is a former grade school teacher now living in Irving, Tex. “I think I blow perceptions because I speak English, I’m educated and it’s my choice to cover,” Ms. Begawala said.
Sarah Zitterman, who as a teenager was a blond California surfer, converted to Islam after living in Zanzibar as a student. In Africa, she felt more at peace with the call to prayer than she ever did at church back home in San Diego. Now 30 and the mother of three in Fresno, Calif., Ms. Zitterman said that being white and American has made her experience under the niqab a little easier.
“It’s less scary for others,” she said. “But the hardest is when kids are frightened. If there’s no men around, I’ll uncover and say ‘Hey, I’m just a mommy — see?’ ”
Most of the niqabis interviewed said that they have received almost as much criticism at their local mosques as at their local malls. Many Muslim Americans do not like being associated with the niqab, saying it gives non-Muslims the wrong idea about their faith.
“The idea of covering one’s face is challenging, even in our community,” said Edina Lekovic, communications director of the Muslim Public Affairs Council in Los Angeles. “For more-mainstream Muslims, the understanding is that you dress modestly and cover everything but your hands and your face. So for a woman to choose to wear niqab is above and beyond what the Koran calls for.”
SARAH and Hebah Ahmed live only a few miles apart in Albuquerque’s East Mountains — Hebah off a winding dirt road with her children and husband, Zayd Chad Leseman, an assistant professor at the University of New Mexico; Sarah in a rural geodesic dome with her son and husband, Yasser Soliman, an engineer with Intel.
Hebah and her husband, who is from Moline, Ill., met as graduate students at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. By the time they were married in 2003, he had converted to Islam and taken the first name Zayd. People were often confused by the sight of the couple, she said, because he looks like “a corn-fed, Midwestern guy, then he’s walking with this covered women who’s dark — they can tell from my eyes.” She laughed and added, “They must wonder where he bought me.”
Mr. Leseman supports his wife’s decision to wear the niqab. “I am proud of my wife’s conviction to her beliefs, but it took some adjustment being out in public with her, especially with all the stares and comments,” he said.
Once, he said, “we wanted to go to my sister’s softball game, and my mother said ‘Yeah, right! Hebah will have to stay in the van.’ People think because her face is covered that her feelings are, too.”
The sisters make the 30-minute drive to Albuquerque a few times a week to grocery shop, attend prayers at the Islamic Center of New Mexico and drink smoothies at Satellite Coffee. The trunk of Hebah’s car is filled with pamphlets on Islam, English translations of the Koran and granola bars for her children.
When it comes to dealing with the public, she is a niqabi ambassador, friendly and outgoing. “I look at those run-ins with people as an opportunity to explain who I am and maybe shed some light on Islam,” Hebah said. “If they knew me or more about my faith, I’m sure they would think differently.”
She is used to explaining that a niqab is not a burqa and that no, she doesn’t wear it at home. In an all-female setting like Curves, one would not be able to identify a niqabi among the other women in workout gear. It does get hot under the jilbab, but as Sarah explained, it is “sort of like a self-contained air-conditioning unit that circulates cool air.”
Hebah has grown so used to her attire, she often forgets she has it on. “Sometimes I’ll pass a guy who’s looking at me, and I’m like ‘Is he checking me out?’” she said. “Then I’ll catch a glimpse of myself in a window and it’s like, ‘Uh, hello, Hebah — no.’ ”
WHILE driving on Interstate 40, heading home, Ms. Ahmed wedged her cellphone between her khimar and ear, then joked, “Look, a hands-free device.” Sarah rolled her eyes.
There are many types of niqabs, Hebah explained, pulling at least a half-dozen out of her closet. Pushing aside her worn copy of “Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus,” she made room for them on the bed.
Her niqabs were made by a seamstress in Egypt whom she met while visiting extended family, but many American niqabis buy their garments online. “You can’t get them here,” Hebah said. “I mean, the ones at the back of our local halal store — hideous.”
As she rummaged through her scarves, Khadijah tied one around her waist and twirled like a ballerina. Muslim women who cover usually wait until puberty to conceal their hair and bodies in public, but Khadijah likes to wear a hijab for dress-up — especially the pink one with sparkles.
Hebah said she wanted Khadijah “to be a confident female who is not victimized or abused.” She explained: “For me, the best way to do that is to do what I’m doing, and not just because Mama told her to, but because of her conviction. At the end of the day, she has to stand in front of God alone.”
When reminded that hers is a rocky path, and it would likely be the same for her daughter, Ms. Ahmed paused, then began to cry.
“People don’t understand,” she said, wiping a tear with the edge of her sleeve. “We’re really strong, but it takes a toll on you. Sometimes you think, ‘I just want to rest.’ ”
Sarah, helping her sister out, said: “We think of paradise at that point. Heaven is where we’re supposed to rest. That’s what gets us through.”
that's the point i was making. the law will apply to everyone. not just the ones who feel 'forced' to wear the burqa.
That's the problem with laws. Again, this law does not specify muslim veil but all face covering in public places (like in Belgium) but we know the french government (amongst others) has spoken out about full covering and how it was seen in the country (oppression of women).
I worked with arab women from 'traditional' households which, under Belgian law, were victims of domestic abuse but, for the traditional arab male, their ways were perfectly normal. The mother of one of my friends was covered from head to toe from age 11 to 78. When aged 78 her husband died she had the option of staying put but living with her youngest brother (and thus still under the thumb of a male). She chose to uproot herself, leave all friends, etc to move to Belgium to be with her daughter and experience a bit of freedom. She was ecstatic she did not have to wear the burka anymore - she felt so liberated (and even wanted to wear a short skirt!!!).
It's a difficult issue. Does one alienate a few for the 'better' of the majority? A poster said that one needs to adapt to the ways of the host country. How far does this 'adaptation' need to go? I cover myself a bit more (ie shoulders, scarf...) if I go to a country where that's the norm, should we expect the reverse?
i understand what you are saying. that's a great story . maybe i'm not explaining myself properly because i'm not saying that some of these women are not oppressed. i'm just saying that we should keep in mind that it's not the same for everyone.
Not your typical burka wearers TA. Again, I can't help but noticing they call this type of attire as 'religious', which I shall repeat, it's not! This type of 'dress' has it's root way before Islam.
These women have made a choice, a defiant one. But I will allow myself to question motives and interpretation though I respect what they are trying to achieve.
"She also reacted to a backlash against Islam and the news that many American Muslim women were not covering for fear of being targeted. " Should this 'backlash' not have happened, would she be covering herself? Also, how many American muslims in full gear are there in the USA?
"So she read the Koran and other Islamic texts and began attending Friday prayers at her local Islamic Center. While she found nothing that justified the attacks, she did find meaning in prayers about strength, piety and resolve." Finding religion in moment of trouble/doubt. "“I was really questioning my life’s purpose,”
Misconceptions - “The more clothes you wear, the closer you are to God,”
These women have made a choice, a defiant one. But I will allow myself to question motives and interpretation though I respect what they are trying to achieve.
don't we all make choices, in some way or another at some stage in our lives? defiant or not?
and as long as that choice is not harming anyone else or themselves, i'll defend anyones right for that.
I understand TA, but could one restrict the choice of an extremely small minority to enable the liberation and freedom of a majority? The wearing of the burqa or similar coverings is not even well perceived with the majority of practicing muslims. As I said, a difficult issue and I don't know that the right thing to do is.
Looking at women's rights, all I know is what I have seen and heard from the women I worked with (none of which covered themselves willingly or knew of others covering themselves willingly), what I have personally experienced in muslim countries and what my very good arab female friends have experienced in so-called progressive muslim countries. I'm very aware that similar issues exist in non muslim countries (change burqa to mini skirt for example, keep the oppression/abuse from fathers/husbands, etc.) but in those cases, there are laws to protect the women.
What I do resent is the cowardice of these governments passing the laws, not calling them what they are. As both the Belgian and French government openly criticised full face covering, giving their reasons, then they should openly pass a law to ban them (like in Tunisia and Turkey), calling it what it is - ie law to ban full islamic face covering - and not disguise it under something else. They have a law banning obvious religious attire in state institutions, schools, etc. - and it's called that. So why pussyfoot around the burqa (and other full coverings)? Unconstitutional?
Well, I guess you can tell my friend Hamida in Morocco who has to have her brother sign her lease because she is a single woman and no landlord would let her do it that it's complete bullshit. I guess you can also tell my friend Karima in Algeria that the next time she gets spat on because she is wearing a skirt too short that it's bullshit. Or maybe when same Karima goes in a cafe with a man that is not a male relative gets insulted and thrown out and, yes, spat on again that it's bullshit.
I don't know if you're a woman or man, white or arab but the examples above are real ones and not uncommon for single arab women. I could walk around in a mini-skirt & low cleavage with as many men as I want in morocco without any problems. But that's because the men would think that I'm a whore anyway so why bother. I know North Africa very, very well. Whilst Morocco, for example, has gone a long, long way for women's rights, it still has a long way to go. Both from a legislative and 'tradition' point of view.
well, I have not been to either Morocco or Algeria. I know in Egypt both of those stories would not apply whatsoever so your knowledge of North Africa falls short there. Additionally, we're talking about government-sanctioned bans here. not only that, but we're talking about a government-sanctioned ban in a liberal democracy where freedom and equality are said to reign supreme, with a law that targets specifically one group of people. if women wearing burqa's were facing discrimination from the people that's one thing, but from the government something else entirely.
But there are some women who cover their heads or faces because they believe it is religious, no?
I haven't met any. Those I know cover because if they don't, they will get abuse from their men folk. For them, is self-preservation. This 'tradition' of full covering dates from before Islam.
ah, so your expertise on this subject is based off of "I haven't met any, so it's not religious." I'm glad it's finally been pinpointed out. so all your islamic rulings that you have been giving have been based off of you not meeting anyone who wears it because they believe it is religious - well guess what, I've met several women who wear it because they believe it is religious. Additionally, I know from experience that there are conversations regarding what is required in Islam regarding the veil - is it simply headscarf or full burqa, etc
Instead of looking at France, let's look at Afghanistan for example. Before the Taliban were a force to reckon with, women were quite liberated and the chadri was hardly seen. Since, the Taliban are enforcing their rule to wear it and women who never wore one, now do - for their own safety (not a legal/religious requirement). For the western world, what has happened to women in Afghanistan was seen as a huge step backwards for them - the full covering being a symbol of womens' oppression and one of the obvious signs of the Taliban's suppressive regime. To the other 'extreme' Tunisia has BANNED the wearing of the veil in state institutions, schools, etc (though not in the street). Whereas in countries such as Afghanistan, Iran, etc. women are harrassed if not covered, in Tunisia they can be harrassed if they are. What is right?
haha, "instead of looking at the liberal democracy France, let's look at war-torn afghanistan." how is this applicable? the issue here is that in France, people should have the freedom to wear what they want. I understand that many women are forced to wear it by their husbands and that is wrong, but those who wear it because they want to should be punished now? it's like since women get beaten by their husbands, we should outlaw marriage. Also, either of those cases is wrong. harrassing people in general because they don't follow a certain standard should be considered wrong. also in tunisia did they ban the full burqa, or just a headscarf? if they banned the headscarf that's absolutely wrong, if just the burqa then it's understandable to do it in state institutions to an extent
TA - if the woman wears the burqa ENTIRELY by choice, fair enough. Most of them don't though.
oh? most of them don't? is this again based off of those you've met? since when it is appropriate to start claiming things as fact based off of polling the people you've met.
But there are some women who cover their heads or faces because they believe it is religious, no?
I haven't met any.
+1
They're a REAL minority.
Generally, they don't choose. Some of them say it's a choice, because they have to agree with men and they can't say the contrary.
My friend Leila (she's French, but her father is Algerian), has been oppressed by him for many years.
And because of her past and the way her mother was treated too, she hates any form of oppression and, to her, the veil is a sign of it.
the veil as in simply a headscarf or the full veil (burqa)? there is a difference.
and those who wear it by choice are a real minority? really? i've met many people who wear the burqa, many of them tell me they do it by choice. that's not to say it's not true that only a real minority do it by choice, maybe i just happened to meet many of them, but i have a hard time just accepting that
yes theyre deluded. the reason they need to cover up is to stop the temptation of men. when are we going to stop kowtowing to this kind of bullshit. if men cant handle a bit of skin then lets deal with THEM, lets not make women cover up to satisfy some stupid men and their lack of control, ok??? women have to stand up for themselves and say , you know what guys?? it is not acceptable that we are made to cover up cause yuo cant control your urges. and dont get me started on the religious aspect of this bullshit.
i said the Muslim women/girls who cover up by choice. their choice. not because someone has told them to. not because some man expects them to. who are we to tell them what they should or shouldn't do or how they should or should not feel.
by choice? bwahahahahaha. what choice would that be??? the choice supposedly laid out in the quran, is that the choice you speak of???? if you think that 'someone' has not 'told' them whether or not to cover up then im afraid youre as deluded as they are. ýou did notice you said MUSLIM women/girls, right? in this context choice is oxymoronic.
your intolerance to religion is very apparent, no need to make it any more so. and your arrogant way in making yourself 'better' than these women is extremely disrespectful and borderline racist (by saying 'they're deluded' because they have a certain belief you don't agree with, which implies that you think you are superior to them). if you don't like it that's fine but to deny others the right to express is inappropriate. by denying certain women who choose to wear this the right to, or by calling them 'deluded' because they choose to (and yes it is a choice, just like religion itself is a choice), you're no better than the men who force certain other women to wear these things against their will.
the fact is that this law denies women the right to choose what they wear, and isn't that every bit as wrong as men denying women the right to choose what they wear???
But there are some women who cover their heads or faces because they believe it is religious, no?
I haven't met any. Those I know cover because if they don't, they will get abuse from their men folk. For them, is self-preservation. This 'tradition' of full covering dates from before Islam.
Instead of looking at France, let's look at Afghanistan for example. Before the Taliban were a force to reckon with, women were quite liberated and the chadri was hardly seen. Since, the Taliban are enforcing their rule to wear it and women who never wore one, now do - for their own safety (not a legal/religious requirement). For the western world, what has happened to women in Afghanistan was seen as a huge step backwards for them - the full covering being a symbol of womens' oppression and one of the obvious signs of the Taliban's suppressive regime. To the other 'extreme' Tunisia has BANNED the wearing of the veil in state institutions, schools, etc (though not in the street). Whereas in countries such as Afghanistan, Iran, etc. women are harrassed if not covered, in Tunisia they can be harrassed if they are. What is right?
I think we're not looking at this from the same perspective. I know there are misogynist cultures, with which i disagree, that more or less force women to cover themselves. But I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about women who chose to cover themselves, for whatever reason. I could have sworn for some of them it was religious, but I'll have to double-check. Regardless, I think women should be able to wear whatever they want to wear. So neither Afghanistan or Tunisia are right, in my opinion. (Maybe we are talking about the same thing. )
this is getting ridiculous. Ayatollah Redrock has now ruled that full covering is not religious. Thank you Mr Ayatollah for your islamic ruling
:roll: you're getting a bit flippant here. It's a fact. As the Qur'an does not dictate the wearing of the burqa (or other similar garments) in order to follow the faith it is not necessary for religious observation (as opposed to the wearing of the daastar which is mandatory). Simple. Should women with to define the wearing of this kind of garment as religious, that is fine.
Egypt may seem OK on the surface, but it has changed in the past 15 years or so and you can see it in the streets. I'm white (very!) but tan easily. Because of my features, as my tan gets darker, I have been 'mistaken' as a 'native' and have definitely been treated differently at the end of my stay where it was not obvious I was not from their country. Also, though the constitution, though is does say equal rights for both and no discrimination, women are still under a male dominated/controlled system - for example, they still can't travel abroad without their husband's permission (by law), some professions are still out of bounds for the (by law), etc.
Shall I rephrase North Africa and say Maghreb (though it means the same thing) to clarify that my knowledge of North Africa did not specifically include Egypt (though I have visited the country several times).
oh? most of them don't? is this again based off of those you've met? since when it is appropriate to start claiming things as fact based off of polling the people you've met.
If you cared to read outlaw, this is what I said:
"Looking at women's rights, all I know is what I have seen and heard from the women I worked with (none of which covered themselves willingly or knew of others covering themselves willingly), what I have personally experienced in muslim countries and what my very good arab female friends have experienced in so-called progressive muslim countries. I'm very aware that similar issues exist in non muslim countries (change burqa to mini skirt for example, keep the oppression/abuse from fathers/husbands, etc.) but in those cases, there are laws to protect the women."
These women were not just women I 'met' or polled - you are being very dismissive of the hardship these women suffer (yes, suffer). They were women from extremely traditional households having major issues with adapting in Belgium. As I said before, what they were experiencing were paramount to domestic abuse (for which we have laws against) but were deemed perfectly natural from the men in the family. These weren't off the cuff conversations, the women were followed for months on end and stories told were similar.
EDIT: I would also like to add that these women were not seeking help (in secret) for themselves as they had sort of accepted their fate many years ago, but primarily for their daughters so they did not have to live the way their mother did (think how it is for, all of a sudden, an 11/12 year old not being able to go out like she did before but have to cover herself from head to toe, knowing it could be for life, on top of the 'servitude' the womenfolk are under). They also did it for their sons, hoping they could 'break the cycle'.
this is getting ridiculous. Ayatollah Redrock has now ruled that full covering is not religious. Thank you Mr Ayatollah for your islamic ruling
:roll: you're getting a bit flippant here. It's a fact. As the Qur'an does not dictate the wearing of the burqa (or other similar garments) in order to follow the faith it is not necessary for religious observation (as opposed to the wearing of the daastar which is mandatory). Simple. Should women with to define the wearing of this kind of garment as religious, that is fine.
I don't know where you're getting this information from but actually the Qur'an mandates the wearing of a khimar for women. khimar is a word that is interpreted in many ways by Islamic scholars. most agree that it means headscarf. some contend that it simply means the covering up of the body, others that it includes the face. additionally, I believe one of Muhammad's wives wore a burqa, which is why it became a religious symbol and some people argue that it is religiously obligatory. i personally disagree and think it doesn't make any sense. but my point is if others believe it, who am I to say that they can't wear it? also your argument that because the burqa/hijab were around before Islam it is not religious falls flat as well because of that line in the Qur'an, and because of its religious significance in Islamic history in general.
Egypt may seem OK on the surface, but it has changed in the past 15 years or so and you can see it in the streets. I'm white (very!) but tan easily. Because of my features, as my tan gets darker, I have been 'mistaken' as a 'native' and have definitely been treated differently at the end of my stay where it was not obvious I was not from their country. Also, though the constitution, though is does say equal rights for both and no discrimination, women are still under a male dominated/controlled system - for example, they still can't travel abroad without their husband's permission (by law), some professions are still out of bounds for the (by law), etc.
Shall I rephrase North Africa and say Maghreb (though it means the same thing) to clarify that my knowledge of North Africa did not specifically include Egypt (though I have visited the country several times).
I lived in Egypt for a year and have visited several times and I disagree with the article. The first paragraph claims "It's no secret that in Egypt religious conservatism is growing. The only people denying this fact are the conservatives themselves, who tell us that we are on a path to hell in blind imitation of the west." it's funny that because I deny this I'm considered a conservative when in reality I'm nothing close to what you'd consider religious. but it actually is becoming super westernized, I was just in Egypt a few weeks ago and went out with a bunch of people I knew there, including girls, and we were not harassed or anything. in fact, I saw many men and women out together. this is not to suggest that there is not any oppression going on in Egypt - there are certainly religious people who are less tolerant of that and I'm sure some women face discrimination. but this is largely exaggerated (Egypt is nothing like, for example, Saudi Arabia where fucking even movie theaters are banned and women can't drive)... I also have a lot more issues with the article that I won't get into right now, but a lot of it is definitely exaggerated instances (for example with the al-Azhar imam who said niqab had nothing to do with Islam, much of the controversy surrounding this issue was not simply what he said but the fact that he went up to a girl wearing it and ripped it off her face....)
regardless, my main issue with the discussion of arab countries is I don't see how this should affect women's freedom to wear the burqa in France. western people may see it as a symbol of oppression but I think this is a very ignorant way of looking at things. if you want to liberate women then western governments should stop supporting the dictatorial regimes in the middle east rather than force women to have to remove something some of them chose to wear. and i absolutely agree that it is wrong for a man to force his wife or female relative to wear the burqa, and that part of the law should absolutely stay (though 'force' should be made more apparent by exactly what they mean so there are no loopholes).
Comments
Unfortunately outlaw, even flow is right. Even in what some would consider quite moderate/progressive arab countries (eg morocco). I have friends living this - educated young single women....
thing is, i fail to see how this is even relevant. mini skirts may not be common in arab states but they aren't banned. and even in some like saudi arabia if you want to argue that you can get in trouble for wearing a mini skirt, such arab countries are under brutal, oppressive dictatorships right now. is france not a liberal democracy? if france releases a statement saying they are changing from being a liberal democracy where people enjoy all equal rights to a brutal, oppressive secular regime, that would be a different story. the idea is that a specific group of people are being targeted here based on their inability to express their religious observations...
I don't know if you're a woman or man, white or arab but the examples above are real ones and not uncommon for single arab women. I could walk around in a mini-skirt & low cleavage with as many men as I want in morocco without any problems. But that's because the men would think that I'm a whore anyway so why bother. I know North Africa very, very well. Whilst Morocco, for example, has gone a long, long way for women's rights, it still has a long way to go. Both from a legislative and 'tradition' point of view.
Again, they can express their religious observations. Full covering is not religious.
But there are some women who cover their heads or faces because they believe it is religious, no?
that they are deluded? that they lack the ability to make this decision for themselves because they have been brainwashed? that they are simply aiding in their own oppression? that laws like this are designed to "liberate" them?
the fact is that this law denies women the right to choose what they wear, and isn't that every bit as wrong as men denying women the right to choose what they wear???
yes theyre deluded. the reason they need to cover up is to stop the temptation of men. when are we going to stop kowtowing to this kind of bullshit. if men cant handle a bit of skin then lets deal with THEM, lets not make women cover up to satisfy some stupid men and their lack of control, ok??? women have to stand up for themselves and say , you know what guys?? it is not acceptable that we are made to cover up cause yuo cant control your urges. and dont get me started on the religious aspect of this bullshit.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I haven't met any. Those I know cover because if they don't, they will get abuse from their men folk. For them, is self-preservation. This 'tradition' of full covering dates from before Islam.
Instead of looking at France, let's look at Afghanistan for example. Before the Taliban were a force to reckon with, women were quite liberated and the chadri was hardly seen. Since, the Taliban are enforcing their rule to wear it and women who never wore one, now do - for their own safety (not a legal/religious requirement). For the western world, what has happened to women in Afghanistan was seen as a huge step backwards for them - the full covering being a symbol of womens' oppression and one of the obvious signs of the Taliban's suppressive regime. To the other 'extreme' Tunisia has BANNED the wearing of the veil in state institutions, schools, etc (though not in the street). Whereas in countries such as Afghanistan, Iran, etc. women are harrassed if not covered, in Tunisia they can be harrassed if they are. What is right?
The Qur'an requires modest dress equally from men and women (should we be looking at the religious requirements).
TA - if the woman wears the burqa ENTIRELY by choice, fair enough. Most of them don't though.
+1
They're a REAL minority.
Generally, they don't choose. Some of them say it's a choice, because they have to agree with men and they can't say the contrary.
My friend Leila (she's French, but her father is Algerian), has been oppressed by him for many years.
And because of her past and the way her mother was treated too, she hates any form of oppression and, to her, the veil is a sign of it.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/ZaRoFF/95885951739?created#!/profile.php?id=100001560978213
by choice? bwahahahahaha. what choice would that be??? the choice supposedly laid out in the quran, is that the choice you speak of???? if you think that 'someone' has not 'told' them whether or not to cover up then im afraid youre as deluded as they are. ýou did notice you said MUSLIM women/girls, right? in this context choice is oxymoronic.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
That's the problem with laws. Again, this law does not specify muslim veil but all face covering in public places (like in Belgium) but we know the french government (amongst others) has spoken out about full covering and how it was seen in the country (oppression of women).
I worked with arab women from 'traditional' households which, under Belgian law, were victims of domestic abuse but, for the traditional arab male, their ways were perfectly normal. The mother of one of my friends was covered from head to toe from age 11 to 78. When aged 78 her husband died she had the option of staying put but living with her youngest brother (and thus still under the thumb of a male). She chose to uproot herself, leave all friends, etc to move to Belgium to be with her daughter and experience a bit of freedom. She was ecstatic she did not have to wear the burka anymore - she felt so liberated (and even wanted to wear a short skirt!!!).
It's a difficult issue. Does one alienate a few for the 'better' of the majority? A poster said that one needs to adapt to the ways of the host country. How far does this 'adaptation' need to go? I cover myself a bit more (ie shoulders, scarf...) if I go to a country where that's the norm, should we expect the reverse?
HEBAH AHMED assessed the weather before she stepped out of her minivan. “It’s windy,” she said with a sigh, tucking a loose bit of hair into her scarf. Her younger sister, Sarah, watched out the window as dust devils danced across the parking lot. “Oh, great,” she said, “I’m going to look like the flying nun.”
Hebah, who is 32, and Sarah, 28, do wear religious attire, but of the Islamic sort: a loose outer garment called a jilbab; a khimar, a head covering that drapes to the fingertips; and a niqab, a scarf that covers most of the face. Before the shopping trip, they consulted by phone to make sure they didn’t wear the same color. “Otherwise, we start to look like a cult,” Sarah explained.
When Hebah yanked open the van’s door, the wind filled her loose-fitting garments like a sail. Her 6-year-old daughter, Khadijah Leseman, laughed. Hebah unloaded Khadijah and her 2-year-old son, Saulih, while struggling to hold her khimar and niqab in place.
The wind whipped Sarah’s navy-blue jilbab like a sheet on a clothesline as she wrangled a shopping cart. Her 3-year-old son, Eesa Soliman, stayed close at her side, lost in the billowing fabric.
Most people in the parking lot stopped to stare.
If the sisters were aware that all eyes were on them, they gave no signs. In the supermarket, they ignored the curious glances in the produce section, the startled double takes by the baked goods and the scowls near the cereal. They glided along the aisles, stopping to compare prices on spaghetti sauce.
Two Hispanic children gasped and ran behind their mother. “Why are they dressed that way?” the girl asked her mother in Spanish. “Islam,” the woman said, also telling the child that the women were from Saudi Arabia.
Hebah, who is from Tennessee, smiled at the girl, but all that could be seen of her face were the lines around the eyes that signaled a grin. After nearly a decade under the veil, she and her sister know full well that they are a source of fascination — and many other reactions — to those around them.
Hebah said she has been kicked off planes by nervous flight attendants and shouted down in a Wal-Mart by angry shoppers who called her a terrorist. Her sister was threatened by a stranger in a picnic area who claimed he had killed a woman in Afghanistan “who looked just like” her. When she joined the Curves gym near her home in Edgewood, N.M., some members threatened to quit. “They said Islamists were taking over,” Ms. Ahmed said.
Her choice to become so identifiably Muslim even rattled her parents, immigrants from Egypt.
“I was more surprised than anything,” said her father, Mohamed Ahmed, who lives in Houston with her mother, Mervat Ahmed. He said he raised his daughters with a deep sense of pride about their Muslim background, but nevertheless did not expect them to wear a hijab, a head scarf, let alone a niqab.
Raised in what she described as a “minimally religious” household by parents who wore typical American clothes, Hebah used to think that women who wore a niqab were crazy, she said.
“It looked like they were suffocating,” she said. “I thought, ‘There’s no way God meant for us to walk around the earth that way, so why would anyone do that to themselves?’ ” Now many people ask that same question of her.
HEBAH AHMED (her first name is pronounced HIB-ah) was born in Chattanooga, raised in Nashville and Houston, and speaks with a slight drawl. She played basketball for her Catholic high school, earned a master’s in mechanical engineering and once worked in the Gulf of Mexico oilfields.
She is not a Muslim Everywoman; it is not a role she would ever claim for herself. Her story is hers alone. But she was willing to spend several days with a reporter to give an idea of what American life looks like from behind the veil, a garment that has become a powerful symbol of culture clash.
All that’s visible of Ms. Ahmed when she ventures into mixed company are her deep brown eyes, some faint freckles where the sun hits the top of her nose, and her hands. She used to leave the house in jeans and T-shirt (she still can, under her jilbab), but that all changed after the 9/11 attacks. It shook her deeply that the people who had committed the horrifying acts had identified themselves as Muslims.
“I just kept thinking ‘Why would they do this in the name of Islam?’ ” she said. “Does my religion really say to do those horrible things?”
So she read the Koran and other Islamic texts and began attending Friday prayers at her local Islamic Center. While she found nothing that justified the attacks, she did find meaning in prayers about strength, piety and resolve. She saw them as guideposts for navigating the world.
“I was really questioning my life’s purpose,” Ms. Ahmed said. “And everything about the bigger picture. I just wasn’t about me and my career anymore.”
She also reacted to a backlash against Islam and the news that many American Muslim women were not covering for fear of being targeted. “It was all so wrong,” she said. She took it upon herself to provide a positive example of her embattled faith, in a way that was hard to ignore.
So on Sept. 17, 2001, she wore a hijab into the laboratory where she worked, along with her business attire.
“A co-worker said, ‘You need to wrap a big ol’ American flag around your head so people know what side you’re on,’ ” Ms. Ahmed said. “From then on, they never let up.”
Three months later, she quit her job and started wearing a niqab, covering her face from view when in the presence of men other than her husband.
“I do this because I want to be closer to God, I want to please him and I want to live a modest lifestyle,” said Ms. Ahmed, who asked that her appearance without a veil not be described. “I want to be tested in that way. The niqab is a constant reminder to do the right thing. It’s God-consciousness in my face.”
But there were secular motivations, too. In her job, she worked with all-male teams on oil rigs and in labs.
“No matter how smart I was, I wasn’t getting the respect I wanted,” she said. “They still hit on me, made crude remarks and even smacked me on the butt a couple times.”
Wearing the niqab is “liberating,” she said. “They have to deal with my brain because I don’t give them any other choice.”
Her first run-in with public opinion came, ordinarily enough, while driving.
“A woman in the car next to me was waving, honking, motioning for me to roll down my window,” she said. “I tried to ignore her, but finally, we both had to stop at a light. I rolled down the window and braced myself. Then she said ‘Excuse me, your burqa is caught in your door.’ That broke the ice.”
Her sister Sarah started wearing a niqab around the same time, while completing her engineering degree at Rice University. The learning curve was steep; both sisters found they needed to carry straws for drinking in public, but eating was another story. Once Sarah forgot she was wearing a niqab and took a bite of an ice cream cone. “Humiliating,” she said, shaking her head.
Breathing wasn’t as difficult as they had imagined, but Hebah had a hard time contending with all the material around her.
“I kept losing things or leaving them behind,” she said. “But it’s like when you first put on high heels or a bra. It’s not the most comfortable thing, but there’s a purpose, and you believe that purpose outweighs the discomfort.”
WOMEN who cover totally, called niqabis, make up a tiny sliver of the estimated three million to seven million Muslims in the United States, yet they have come to embody much of what Westerners find foreign about Islam. Hidden under yards of cloth, they are the most visceral reminders of the differences between East and West, and an indisputable sign that Islam is weaving its way into American culture.
In France, President Nicolas Sarkozy is backing a bill to ban women from publicly wearing the niqab and its more conservative cousin, the burqa, which covers the wearer’s eyes with a mesh panel. Similar legislation is being considered in the province of Quebec and Belgium.
In the United States, there have been flashpoints: in 2006, Ginnnah Muhammad, a plaintiff in a small claims case in Detroit, refused the judge’s request to take off her niqab during court proceedings and so her case was thrown out. She later found herself in front of the Michigan Supreme Court, arguing for her right to wear the niqab in court. The high court upheld the judge’s action.
Ms. Muhammad and five other American niqabis were interviewed for this article, in addition to the Ahmed sisters. All of them made the decision to wear the niqab when they were single. And, although the Muslim faith does not require women to cover their faces, all believe the niqab gave them a bit of extra credit in the eyes of God. “The more clothes you wear, the closer you are to God,” Ms. Muhammad said.
Menahal Begawala, 28, was raised in Queens, the daughter of Indian immigrants. She began covering her face at age 19. “I suppose there is some part of me that wants to make a statement, ‘I am a Muslim,’ ” she said.
She is a former grade school teacher now living in Irving, Tex. “I think I blow perceptions because I speak English, I’m educated and it’s my choice to cover,” Ms. Begawala said.
Sarah Zitterman, who as a teenager was a blond California surfer, converted to Islam after living in Zanzibar as a student. In Africa, she felt more at peace with the call to prayer than she ever did at church back home in San Diego. Now 30 and the mother of three in Fresno, Calif., Ms. Zitterman said that being white and American has made her experience under the niqab a little easier.
“It’s less scary for others,” she said. “But the hardest is when kids are frightened. If there’s no men around, I’ll uncover and say ‘Hey, I’m just a mommy — see?’ ”
Most of the niqabis interviewed said that they have received almost as much criticism at their local mosques as at their local malls. Many Muslim Americans do not like being associated with the niqab, saying it gives non-Muslims the wrong idea about their faith.
“The idea of covering one’s face is challenging, even in our community,” said Edina Lekovic, communications director of the Muslim Public Affairs Council in Los Angeles. “For more-mainstream Muslims, the understanding is that you dress modestly and cover everything but your hands and your face. So for a woman to choose to wear niqab is above and beyond what the Koran calls for.”
SARAH and Hebah Ahmed live only a few miles apart in Albuquerque’s East Mountains — Hebah off a winding dirt road with her children and husband, Zayd Chad Leseman, an assistant professor at the University of New Mexico; Sarah in a rural geodesic dome with her son and husband, Yasser Soliman, an engineer with Intel.
Hebah and her husband, who is from Moline, Ill., met as graduate students at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. By the time they were married in 2003, he had converted to Islam and taken the first name Zayd. People were often confused by the sight of the couple, she said, because he looks like “a corn-fed, Midwestern guy, then he’s walking with this covered women who’s dark — they can tell from my eyes.” She laughed and added, “They must wonder where he bought me.”
Mr. Leseman supports his wife’s decision to wear the niqab. “I am proud of my wife’s conviction to her beliefs, but it took some adjustment being out in public with her, especially with all the stares and comments,” he said.
Once, he said, “we wanted to go to my sister’s softball game, and my mother said ‘Yeah, right! Hebah will have to stay in the van.’ People think because her face is covered that her feelings are, too.”
The sisters make the 30-minute drive to Albuquerque a few times a week to grocery shop, attend prayers at the Islamic Center of New Mexico and drink smoothies at Satellite Coffee. The trunk of Hebah’s car is filled with pamphlets on Islam, English translations of the Koran and granola bars for her children.
When it comes to dealing with the public, she is a niqabi ambassador, friendly and outgoing. “I look at those run-ins with people as an opportunity to explain who I am and maybe shed some light on Islam,” Hebah said. “If they knew me or more about my faith, I’m sure they would think differently.”
She is used to explaining that a niqab is not a burqa and that no, she doesn’t wear it at home. In an all-female setting like Curves, one would not be able to identify a niqabi among the other women in workout gear. It does get hot under the jilbab, but as Sarah explained, it is “sort of like a self-contained air-conditioning unit that circulates cool air.”
Hebah has grown so used to her attire, she often forgets she has it on. “Sometimes I’ll pass a guy who’s looking at me, and I’m like ‘Is he checking me out?’” she said. “Then I’ll catch a glimpse of myself in a window and it’s like, ‘Uh, hello, Hebah — no.’ ”
WHILE driving on Interstate 40, heading home, Ms. Ahmed wedged her cellphone between her khimar and ear, then joked, “Look, a hands-free device.” Sarah rolled her eyes.
There are many types of niqabs, Hebah explained, pulling at least a half-dozen out of her closet. Pushing aside her worn copy of “Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus,” she made room for them on the bed.
Her niqabs were made by a seamstress in Egypt whom she met while visiting extended family, but many American niqabis buy their garments online. “You can’t get them here,” Hebah said. “I mean, the ones at the back of our local halal store — hideous.”
As she rummaged through her scarves, Khadijah tied one around her waist and twirled like a ballerina. Muslim women who cover usually wait until puberty to conceal their hair and bodies in public, but Khadijah likes to wear a hijab for dress-up — especially the pink one with sparkles.
Hebah said she wanted Khadijah “to be a confident female who is not victimized or abused.” She explained: “For me, the best way to do that is to do what I’m doing, and not just because Mama told her to, but because of her conviction. At the end of the day, she has to stand in front of God alone.”
When reminded that hers is a rocky path, and it would likely be the same for her daughter, Ms. Ahmed paused, then began to cry.
“People don’t understand,” she said, wiping a tear with the edge of her sleeve. “We’re really strong, but it takes a toll on you. Sometimes you think, ‘I just want to rest.’ ”
Sarah, helping her sister out, said: “We think of paradise at that point. Heaven is where we’re supposed to rest. That’s what gets us through.”
These women have made a choice, a defiant one. But I will allow myself to question motives and interpretation though I respect what they are trying to achieve.
"She also reacted to a backlash against Islam and the news that many American Muslim women were not covering for fear of being targeted. " Should this 'backlash' not have happened, would she be covering herself? Also, how many American muslims in full gear are there in the USA?
"So she read the Koran and other Islamic texts and began attending Friday prayers at her local Islamic Center. While she found nothing that justified the attacks, she did find meaning in prayers about strength, piety and resolve." Finding religion in moment of trouble/doubt. "“I was really questioning my life’s purpose,”
Misconceptions - “The more clothes you wear, the closer you are to God,”
and as long as that choice is not harming anyone else or themselves, i'll defend anyones right for that.
Looking at women's rights, all I know is what I have seen and heard from the women I worked with (none of which covered themselves willingly or knew of others covering themselves willingly), what I have personally experienced in muslim countries and what my very good arab female friends have experienced in so-called progressive muslim countries. I'm very aware that similar issues exist in non muslim countries (change burqa to mini skirt for example, keep the oppression/abuse from fathers/husbands, etc.) but in those cases, there are laws to protect the women.
What I do resent is the cowardice of these governments passing the laws, not calling them what they are. As both the Belgian and French government openly criticised full face covering, giving their reasons, then they should openly pass a law to ban them (like in Tunisia and Turkey), calling it what it is - ie law to ban full islamic face covering - and not disguise it under something else. They have a law banning obvious religious attire in state institutions, schools, etc. - and it's called that. So why pussyfoot around the burqa (and other full coverings)? Unconstitutional?
this is getting ridiculous. Ayatollah Redrock has now ruled that full covering is not religious. Thank you Mr Ayatollah for your islamic ruling
haha, "instead of looking at the liberal democracy France, let's look at war-torn afghanistan." how is this applicable? the issue here is that in France, people should have the freedom to wear what they want. I understand that many women are forced to wear it by their husbands and that is wrong, but those who wear it because they want to should be punished now? it's like since women get beaten by their husbands, we should outlaw marriage. Also, either of those cases is wrong. harrassing people in general because they don't follow a certain standard should be considered wrong. also in tunisia did they ban the full burqa, or just a headscarf? if they banned the headscarf that's absolutely wrong, if just the burqa then it's understandable to do it in state institutions to an extent
and those who wear it by choice are a real minority? really? i've met many people who wear the burqa, many of them tell me they do it by choice. that's not to say it's not true that only a real minority do it by choice, maybe i just happened to meet many of them, but i have a hard time just accepting that
Amen!
I think we're not looking at this from the same perspective. I know there are misogynist cultures, with which i disagree, that more or less force women to cover themselves. But I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about women who chose to cover themselves, for whatever reason. I could have sworn for some of them it was religious, but I'll have to double-check. Regardless, I think women should be able to wear whatever they want to wear. So neither Afghanistan or Tunisia are right, in my opinion. (Maybe we are talking about the same thing.
:roll: you're getting a bit flippant here. It's a fact. As the Qur'an does not dictate the wearing of the burqa (or other similar garments) in order to follow the faith it is not necessary for religious observation (as opposed to the wearing of the daastar which is mandatory). Simple. Should women with to define the wearing of this kind of garment as religious, that is fine.
Egypt may seem OK on the surface, but it has changed in the past 15 years or so and you can see it in the streets. I'm white (very!) but tan easily. Because of my features, as my tan gets darker, I have been 'mistaken' as a 'native' and have definitely been treated differently at the end of my stay where it was not obvious I was not from their country. Also, though the constitution, though is does say equal rights for both and no discrimination, women are still under a male dominated/controlled system - for example, they still can't travel abroad without their husband's permission (by law), some professions are still out of bounds for the (by law), etc.
This article describes some of the noticeable changes:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... tism-women
Shall I rephrase North Africa and say Maghreb (though it means the same thing) to clarify that my knowledge of North Africa did not specifically include Egypt (though I have visited the country several times).
If you cared to read outlaw, this is what I said:
"Looking at women's rights, all I know is what I have seen and heard from the women I worked with (none of which covered themselves willingly or knew of others covering themselves willingly), what I have personally experienced in muslim countries and what my very good arab female friends have experienced in so-called progressive muslim countries. I'm very aware that similar issues exist in non muslim countries (change burqa to mini skirt for example, keep the oppression/abuse from fathers/husbands, etc.) but in those cases, there are laws to protect the women."
These women were not just women I 'met' or polled - you are being very dismissive of the hardship these women suffer (yes, suffer). They were women from extremely traditional households having major issues with adapting in Belgium. As I said before, what they were experiencing were paramount to domestic abuse (for which we have laws against) but were deemed perfectly natural from the men in the family. These weren't off the cuff conversations, the women were followed for months on end and stories told were similar.
EDIT: I would also like to add that these women were not seeking help (in secret) for themselves as they had sort of accepted their fate many years ago, but primarily for their daughters so they did not have to live the way their mother did (think how it is for, all of a sudden, an 11/12 year old not being able to go out like she did before but have to cover herself from head to toe, knowing it could be for life, on top of the 'servitude' the womenfolk are under). They also did it for their sons, hoping they could 'break the cycle'.
I believe women should legally be able to go topless as men can. But there is legislation against that.
I lived in Egypt for a year and have visited several times and I disagree with the article. The first paragraph claims "It's no secret that in Egypt religious conservatism is growing. The only people denying this fact are the conservatives themselves, who tell us that we are on a path to hell in blind imitation of the west." it's funny that because I deny this I'm considered a conservative when in reality I'm nothing close to what you'd consider religious. but it actually is becoming super westernized, I was just in Egypt a few weeks ago and went out with a bunch of people I knew there, including girls, and we were not harassed or anything. in fact, I saw many men and women out together. this is not to suggest that there is not any oppression going on in Egypt - there are certainly religious people who are less tolerant of that and I'm sure some women face discrimination. but this is largely exaggerated (Egypt is nothing like, for example, Saudi Arabia where fucking even movie theaters are banned and women can't drive)... I also have a lot more issues with the article that I won't get into right now, but a lot of it is definitely exaggerated instances (for example with the al-Azhar imam who said niqab had nothing to do with Islam, much of the controversy surrounding this issue was not simply what he said but the fact that he went up to a girl wearing it and ripped it off her face....)
regardless, my main issue with the discussion of arab countries is I don't see how this should affect women's freedom to wear the burqa in France. western people may see it as a symbol of oppression but I think this is a very ignorant way of looking at things. if you want to liberate women then western governments should stop supporting the dictatorial regimes in the middle east rather than force women to have to remove something some of them chose to wear. and i absolutely agree that it is wrong for a man to force his wife or female relative to wear the burqa, and that part of the law should absolutely stay (though 'force' should be made more apparent by exactly what they mean so there are no loopholes).