French MPs vote to ban full veil

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Comments

  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    ok... but they are worn for reasons based on a religious culture.

    I wouldn't say so. Very few actually wear the burka. It's a question of modesty and old, male dominated traditions, not really the modern muslim faith.
  • haffajappa
    haffajappa British Columbia Posts: 5,955
    Like i said apart from where security comes into question they should be allowed to wear whatever they want....


    ...but I gotta say, what a shitty tradition where women are meant to cover their entire faces or their heads. Men should have to wear them too then... I'm not trying to bash anyone's religion or tradition or whatever, but some people are just brainwashed from birth on what they have to do - especially in their servitude to man :roll:
    live pearl jam is best pearl jam
  • Hub.
    Hub. Posts: 1,991
    For those who read French (From, Le Monde, an important newspaper) :
    La dignité de l'homme exige qu'il porte la burqa

    par Pierrette Fleutiaux

    LE MONDE du 04/07/09

    Si j'étais un homme pieux, voici ce que je proposerais. La femme est un être faible, soumis à toutes les tentations, nous le savons depuis la nuit des temps. Elle est concupiscente, tout entière la proie de pulsions condamnables. Son corps aspire à celui de l'homme, la société doit maîtriser ce corps, dès son plus jeune âge. La burqa peut sembler une réponse appropriée. Contraindre les mouvements de la femme, la ramener à la modestie, encadrer les désirs sauvages qui lui sont naturels, qui troublent son esprit et corrompent la société, relève du devoir de l'homme respectueux de l'ordre divin.


    Cependant, peut-être avons-nous fait erreur non pas dans l'interprétation de la loi divine, mais dans les moyens de la mieux appliquer. En effet, les yeux de la femme, même derrière un grillage, même dans la fente du niqab, restent libres. La vision périphérique en est certes limitée, mais la perversité naturelle de la femme lui fera trouver le moyen de contourner ce léger handicap. La femme en burqa continue de voir. On imagine quelles turpitudes alors peuvent agiter son esprit. Cachée sous son voile intégral, la femme peut encore se livrer à la débauche mentale.

    Une solution serait de l'aveugler totalement, par le moyen d'un bandeau ou tout autre moyen non cruel mais efficace. Cette solution est à écarter : la femme ne pourrait plus en effet accomplir les tâches auxquelles la destine sa condition subalterne : nourrir l'homme et ses fils, conduire les fils de l'homme à l'école, et faire toutes choses qui dégagent l'homme des tâches matérielles, facilitent l'exercice de son vouloir et son étude des textes sacrés.

    Je soumets ici une modeste proposition à mes frères. Que les hommes portent la burqa, qu'ils s'approprient ce vêtement que dévoie trop facilement la femme. L'homme est beau, l'homme est la création première de Dieu, la femme le désire indécemment. Ne lui donnant pas la liberté de convoiter, ne tentons pas sa faible nature.

    Voyez l'homme derrière lequel marche la femme en burqa. Même voilée, justement parce que voilée, elle a toute licence de contempler les bras que montrent les chemisettes d'été, les pieds dans les sandales, les fesses agiles et les jambes qui se devinent sous les pantalons, les poitrines mâles et les visages nobles. L'homme croit avoir mis la femme à l'abri de tout danger dans sa prison portative de la burqa. En réalité, il lui accorde une liberté scandaleuse.

    L'homme en burqa brisera net l'élan pervers de la femme. Ces yeux brillants, qui transpercent le voile le plus épais, se heurteront à un mur. Ainsi privée dans la journée, elle n'en sera dans sa maison que plus portée à répondre aux besoins sexuels légitimes de son époux.

    Que la femme aille dans la rue dans les atours aguicheurs qu'elle ne manquera pas de se choisir. Son regard s'épuisera sur les autres femmes, elle y verra comme dans un miroir sa propre indécence, sa futilité même la détournera de toute compétition malsaine avec l'homme. Quant à cette exposition de la féminité, elle ne saurait nuire à l'homme. Il s'y verra conforté dans son incontestable supériorité. Il saura, dans les autres burqas, reconnaître les hommes pieux et respectueux de la loi, et ainsi renforcera nécessairement la belle et indispensable communauté masculine.

    ORDRE DIVIN

    Repoussons cette croyance absurde qu'il faudrait voiler les femmes pour que les hommes ne soient pas portés à désirer celles d'autrui. Une telle croyance est mécréante : elle accrédite l'idée que l'homme a été créé libidineux, violeur par nature et faible devant ses désirs. Et que, devant toute femme passant sous ses yeux, s'éveille aussitôt en lui la pulsion de lui sauter sur le râble pour consommer l'oeuvre de chair. L'homme a en lui la force de l'âme et le respect naturel de l'ordre divin. L'homme n'a rien à craindre des misérables appâts de la femme.

    Enfin, reconnaissons qu'il y a grand danger à abandonner les fils de l'homme aux soins de la femme. Son faible entendement ne peut que leur nuire. A l'homme de prendre en charge l'homme dans le nourrisson, à lui de le langer, le nourrir, le soigner. Une fois sa tâche reproductive accomplie, que la femme dirige ses agissements erratiques vers l'extérieur, qu'elle s'en aille piailler dans les assemblées publiques, mais que ses miasmes ne corrompent plus le foyer sacré de l'homme. La dignité de l'homme exige qu'il porte la burqa. La burqa est faite pour l'homme.

    @LEMONDE
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    Good read Hub. So tongue in cheek but such a role reversal may open up some eyes!
  • Jason P
    Jason P Posts: 19,327
    Hub. wrote:
    For those who read French (From, Le Monde, an important newspaper) :
    La dignité de l'homme exige qu'il porte la burqa

    par Pierrette Fleutiaux

    LE MONDE du 04/07/09

    Si j'étais un homme pieux, voici ce que je proposerais. La femme est un être faible, soumis à toutes les tentations, nous le savons depuis la nuit des temps. Elle est concupiscente, tout entière la proie de pulsions condamnables. Son corps aspire à celui de l'homme, la société doit maîtriser ce corps, dès son plus jeune âge. La burqa peut sembler une réponse appropriée. Contraindre les mouvements de la femme, la ramener à la modestie, encadrer les désirs sauvages qui lui sont naturels, qui troublent son esprit et corrompent la société, relève du devoir de l'homme respectueux de l'ordre divin.


    Cependant, peut-être avons-nous fait erreur non pas dans l'interprétation de la loi divine, mais dans les moyens de la mieux appliquer. En effet, les yeux de la femme, même derrière un grillage, même dans la fente du niqab, restent libres. La vision périphérique en est certes limitée, mais la perversité naturelle de la femme lui fera trouver le moyen de contourner ce léger handicap. La femme en burqa continue de voir. On imagine quelles turpitudes alors peuvent agiter son esprit. Cachée sous son voile intégral, la femme peut encore se livrer à la débauche mentale.

    Une solution serait de l'aveugler totalement, par le moyen d'un bandeau ou tout autre moyen non cruel mais efficace. Cette solution est à écarter : la femme ne pourrait plus en effet accomplir les tâches auxquelles la destine sa condition subalterne : nourrir l'homme et ses fils, conduire les fils de l'homme à l'école, et faire toutes choses qui dégagent l'homme des tâches matérielles, facilitent l'exercice de son vouloir et son étude des textes sacrés.

    Je soumets ici une modeste proposition à mes frères. Que les hommes portent la burqa, qu'ils s'approprient ce vêtement que dévoie trop facilement la femme. L'homme est beau, l'homme est la création première de Dieu, la femme le désire indécemment. Ne lui donnant pas la liberté de convoiter, ne tentons pas sa faible nature.

    Voyez l'homme derrière lequel marche la femme en burqa. Même voilée, justement parce que voilée, elle a toute licence de contempler les bras que montrent les chemisettes d'été, les pieds dans les sandales, les fesses agiles et les jambes qui se devinent sous les pantalons, les poitrines mâles et les visages nobles. L'homme croit avoir mis la femme à l'abri de tout danger dans sa prison portative de la burqa. En réalité, il lui accorde une liberté scandaleuse.

    L'homme en burqa brisera net l'élan pervers de la femme. Ces yeux brillants, qui transpercent le voile le plus épais, se heurteront à un mur. Ainsi privée dans la journée, elle n'en sera dans sa maison que plus portée à répondre aux besoins sexuels légitimes de son époux.

    Que la femme aille dans la rue dans les atours aguicheurs qu'elle ne manquera pas de se choisir. Son regard s'épuisera sur les autres femmes, elle y verra comme dans un miroir sa propre indécence, sa futilité même la détournera de toute compétition malsaine avec l'homme. Quant à cette exposition de la féminité, elle ne saurait nuire à l'homme. Il s'y verra conforté dans son incontestable supériorité. Il saura, dans les autres burqas, reconnaître les hommes pieux et respectueux de la loi, et ainsi renforcera nécessairement la belle et indispensable communauté masculine.

    ORDRE DIVIN

    Repoussons cette croyance absurde qu'il faudrait voiler les femmes pour que les hommes ne soient pas portés à désirer celles d'autrui. Une telle croyance est mécréante : elle accrédite l'idée que l'homme a été créé libidineux, violeur par nature et faible devant ses désirs. Et que, devant toute femme passant sous ses yeux, s'éveille aussitôt en lui la pulsion de lui sauter sur le râble pour consommer l'oeuvre de chair. L'homme a en lui la force de l'âme et le respect naturel de l'ordre divin. L'homme n'a rien à craindre des misérables appâts de la femme.

    Enfin, reconnaissons qu'il y a grand danger à abandonner les fils de l'homme aux soins de la femme. Son faible entendement ne peut que leur nuire. A l'homme de prendre en charge l'homme dans le nourrisson, à lui de le langer, le nourrir, le soigner. Une fois sa tâche reproductive accomplie, que la femme dirige ses agissements erratiques vers l'extérieur, qu'elle s'en aille piailler dans les assemblées publiques, mais que ses miasmes ne corrompent plus le foyer sacré de l'homme. La dignité de l'homme exige qu'il porte la burqa. La burqa est faite pour l'homme.

    @LEMONDE
    What's it all mean, Basil???
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  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    Why is it sickening?

    I'm not starting an argument here, but it really fucks me off how reactions change.

    What is the difference between having to adhere with, what is basically, socially acceptable dress codes and conduct in one country and yet not in another?

    For example, when it is really hot could men walk round in jeans but no shirt in every country? No they couldn't. So does that make one country right and one wrong? People are free to live in whatever country they choose, but they should be mindful of the fact that they need to adapt to traditions, culture and society in general.

    To do otherwise, for example to wear a full burka, instantly alienates you from the majority. Add on to this stereotypical views and you start to create suspicion, unease and, in extreme cases, hate and prejudice. These opinions may have been created by many different types of stimuli and the resultant reaction the wrong one, but it causes a reaction nonetheless.
    this is sickening because it is restricting one's ability for religious expression. I'm not sure in which country a man is not allowed to walk around without a shirt, but even so, you wouldn't be doing so with a religious motive.

    to wear a burka alienates you from the majority? i did not know people are forced to do what the majority does, what kind of fucking sick logic is that?? i guess we should just restrict freedom of religion in general, since being a muslim alienates you from the majority. "Add on to this stereotypical views and you start to create suspicion, unease and, in extreme cases, hate and prejudice." so what do you do? rather than target and try to stop stereotypes and hate and prejudice, you force the people who have done nothing wrong to remove something they choose to wear. how is france just a liberal country if it's restricting other people's freedom?

    if people don't like looking at someone who's wearing a burka, go sit somewhere else, but don't force the person to remove it, it's sickening. all this not mentioning that only 2000 people in the country wear it. how often in a country with what 70 million or something are you likely to run into one.
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    Does the fact that its a burka donned for religious reasons make it more valid than if it's a dew rag worn because you like the way you look in it?
    yes. it is a difference.
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    It seems to me that there are several issues being discussed here:

    1. Security - People can't be identified if you can't see their faces.

    2. Security - People don't feel safe around others who display these cultural symbols.

    3. Choice - Women should not be forced to conform to sexist ideologies.

    4. Choice - Women should not be allowed to dress this way even if they want to.

    5. Nationalism - Foreigners should conform to the styles of the culture of the country they live in.

    Et cetera.

    Personally, I think #2, #4, & # 5 are bullshit. #2. The world should not be forced to conform to the ideologies and fears of close-minded bigots. This is not analogous to gang symbols & the violence associated with them. #4. I think the problem here is that people impose their own ideologies onto all women, assuming that no one would want to dress this way. But some women do want to, of their own free will. Saying they can't wear veils is no different than saying they can't wear shorts or saying women can't wear pants. #5. Same old shit from the same old people. :roll:

    I agree with #1 & #3. #1.When entering high security areas, like banks or airports, people shouldn't be allowed to cover their faces. But there need not be a special law aimed at veils (if that's actually the case). This should just fall into the same category as sunglasses, hats, etc. The problem is that they seem to be picking on the dress of a certain culture. And that's a pretty big problem. #3. I agree that women shouldn't be forced to conform to sexist ideologies. I just think this kind of law does more harm than good. It would be like saying since it's sexist to believe that women's sole purpose is to have children, all women are banned from having children.

    Just my $0.02.
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    _outlaw wrote:
    this is sickening because it is restricting one's ability for religious expression.

    Again, the burka or the niqab are not a dictate of the muslim faith. They are not worn for religious expression (contrary to the dastaar). There is absolutely no need for a woman to wear one. Not many do and most of the ones I know who do is because of husbands, fathers, brothers. Not because they find it comfy, becoming, useful or anything like that.

    scb wrote:
    I agree with #1 & #3. #1.When entering high security areas, like banks or airports, people shouldn't be allowed to cover their faces. But there need not be a special law aimed at veils (if that's actually the case). This should just fall into the same category as sunglasses, hats, etc. The problem is that they seem to be picking on the dress of a certain culture.

    The veil is not mentioned at all in the law. It is for ALL articles of clothing, masks, balaklavas, etc. that completelycover the face. The main argument is a security one for all public places. Also, I guess, one could ask why in the street... because there are cameras tracking your every move everywhere...
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    Can you have your passport or drivers license picture wearing one?
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • Godfather.
    Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    Cosmo wrote:
    Can you have your passport or drivers license picture wearing one?

    :lol::lol::lol:

    Godfather.
  • blackredyellow
    blackredyellow Posts: 5,889
    Cosmo wrote:
    Can you have your passport or drivers license picture wearing one?

    I could be wrong, but I think for driver's licenses, there is some sort of exemption from getting your picture taken...

    I can't imagine that there is one for passports though...
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    Cosmo wrote:
    Can you have your passport or drivers license picture wearing one?

    I could be wrong, but I think for driver's licenses, there is some sort of exemption from getting your picture taken...

    I can't imagine that there is one for passports though...
    ...
    How can I get one of those exemptions? My drivers license picture looks like i'm stoned.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • Dirtie_Frank
    Dirtie_Frank Posts: 1,348
    Cosmo wrote:
    Cosmo wrote:
    Can you have your passport or drivers license picture wearing one?

    I could be wrong, but I think for driver's licenses, there is some sort of exemption from getting your picture taken...

    I can't imagine that there is one for passports though...
    ...
    How can I get one of those exemptions? My drivers license picture looks like i'm stoned.

    Well were you? :D
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  • Dirtie_Frank
    Dirtie_Frank Posts: 1,348
    Cosmo that might be good just in case you are stoned and pulled over the cop might not think anything of it. :lol:
    96 Randall's Island II
    98 CAA
    00 Virginia Beach;Camden I; Jones Beach III
    05 Borgata Night I; Wachovia Center
    06 Letterman Show; Webcast (guy in blue shirt), Camden I; DC
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    13 Wrigley Field
    16 Phillie II
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    Cosmo that might be good just in case you are stoned and pulled over the cop might not think anything of it. :lol:
    ...
    Great point... why didn't I think of that?
    Probably from being stoned.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • Hub.
    Hub. Posts: 1,991
    Cosmo wrote:
    Can you have your passport or drivers license picture wearing one?

    I'm not sure their husbands let them drive.
  • Dirtie_Frank
    Dirtie_Frank Posts: 1,348
    Hub. wrote:
    Cosmo wrote:
    Can you have your passport or drivers license picture wearing one?

    I'm not sure their husbands let them drive.

    I'm with them I get scared when my wife drives too. :o:lol:
    96 Randall's Island II
    98 CAA
    00 Virginia Beach;Camden I; Jones Beach III
    05 Borgata Night I; Wachovia Center
    06 Letterman Show; Webcast (guy in blue shirt), Camden I; DC
    08 Camden I; Camden II; DC
    09 Phillie III
    10 MSG II
    13 Wrigley Field
    16 Phillie II
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    redrock wrote:
    _outlaw wrote:
    this is sickening because it is restricting one's ability for religious expression.

    Again, the burka or the niqab are not a dictate of the muslim faith. They are not worn for religious expression (contrary to the dastaar). There is absolutely no need for a woman to wear one. Not many do and most of the ones I know who do is because of husbands, fathers, brothers. Not because they find it comfy, becoming, useful or anything like that.
    I agree that it's not a dictate of the muslim faith, but people have different interpretations and it is not our place to say what is and isn't part of the muslim faith to people who have different beliefs. I know people who wear it because they believe it is a religious/culture expression and with regards to the muslim faith, it is a very particular subject in general because culture is very intertwined with religion.
    scb wrote:
    I agree with #1 & #3. #1.When entering high security areas, like banks or airports, people shouldn't be allowed to cover their faces. But there need not be a special law aimed at veils (if that's actually the case). This should just fall into the same category as sunglasses, hats, etc. The problem is that they seem to be picking on the dress of a certain culture.

    The veil is not mentioned at all in the law. It is for ALL articles of clothing, masks, balaklavas, etc. that completelycover the face. The main argument is a security one for all public places. Also, I guess, one could ask why in the street... because there are cameras tracking your every move everywhere...
    the main argument from what i have seen has not been a security one whatsoever, and many comments from MPs and sarkozy himself were made regarding the veil itself. why are you acting as if the veil just happened to fall into a category of a bunch of other stuff? this has been a far larger issue than that. and even so, in public places it is not right to bar people from religious expression. the veil has not been such a security issue and this just limits people's freedom
  • Smellyman
    Smellyman Asia Posts: 4,528
    Godfather. wrote:
    _outlaw wrote:
    sickening

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/europe/10611398.stm

    I'm interested to hear thoughts on this... does anyone here actually support this? would anyone like to see something similar in the US? if so, why?

    it is what it is, there must be some concerns with this from the countries that will not allow it, not every country will give in to and bend over backward to make foreigners happy like the US dose.
    just a thought.

    Godfather.

    there is no Muslim French citizens?