14 years and counting...

mrussel1

unsung said:

But you're right,  it doesn't apply to the children of ambassadors.  

bootlegger10

mrussel1 said:

unsung said:

But you're right,  it doesn't apply to the children of ambassadors.  

What would “foreigners, aliens” refer to?  Is it a run on sentence where it is a foreigner who belongs to the family of an ambassador,  or is it in addition to the children of ambassadors?  Since it doesn’t use “or” anywhere in the sentence I would interpret it that all babies born in the US are citizens unless born to a foreign diplomat.   

Of course the above is not written legislation where grammar would be heavily reviewed, but is a verbal record.

mrussel1

bootlegger10 said:

mrussel1 said:

unsung said:

But you're right,  it doesn't apply to the children of ambassadors.  

What would “foreigners, aliens” refer to?  Is it a run on sentence where it is a foreigner who belongs to the family of an ambassador,  or is it in addition to the children of ambassadors?  Since it doesn’t use “or” anywhere in the sentence I would interpret it that all babies born in the US are citizens unless born to a foreign diplomat.   

Of course the above is not written legislation where grammar would be heavily reviewed, but is a verbal record.

But it's irrelevant what one person felt when about the legislation,  the text of the amendment is what matters.  Second,  most importantly,  the potus stating that he can waive it away with an EO is the very definition of totalitarianism.  The constitution and its amendments are the bedrock of our foundation.  Does the the potus get to waive away the first and second with a pen too?  Please tell me you see the danger in his statements. 

The Juggler

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

My opinion is that Team Trump Treason should stop blowing it out his ass as most illegal immigrants arrive by air and overstay their visas, not by pouring over the southern border and he and his family should stop selling condos and apartments to Russians coming here to have anchor babies. Why aren’t we closing the airports? You know, invasion.

Every source I’ve seen puts over 50% of illegal immigrants coming from Mexico, and about 70% coming from Mexico/Central America.
So yes, most are coming through the southern border.

Care to share your sources?

unsung

Ledbetterman10

I think birthright citizenship is dumb as hell. But Trump can't just get rid of it through an executive order. Although...it is fun to see Trump basically say "Fuck the constitution" because conservatives fucking love the constitution. It puts the Paul Ryans of the world in a tough spot where they have to defend both the constitution, and the president who's never read it. 

tempo_n_groove

Ledbetterman10 said:

I think birthright citizenship is dumb as hell. But Trump can't just get rid of it through an executive order. Although...it is fun to see Trump basically say "Fuck the constitution" because conservatives fucking love the constitution. It puts the Paul Ryans of the world in a tough spot where they have to defend both the constitution, and the president who's never read it. 

Every Executive Order a President does is like an F U to the constitution and congress and the senate.

It's what a president does to move his agenda along when they know it won't pass through as a bipartisan bill.

HughFreakingDillon

tempo_n_groove said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

I think birthright citizenship is dumb as hell. But Trump can't just get rid of it through an executive order. Although...it is fun to see Trump basically say "Fuck the constitution" because conservatives fucking love the constitution. It puts the Paul Ryans of the world in a tough spot where they have to defend both the constitution, and the president who's never read it. 

Every Executive Order a President does is like an F U to the constitution and congress and the senate.

It's what a president does to move his agenda along when they know it won't pass through as a bipartisan bill.

didn't Obama sign a shitload of EO's?

Halifax2TheMax

HughFreakingDillon said:

tempo_n_groove said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

I think birthright citizenship is dumb as hell. But Trump can't just get rid of it through an executive order. Although...it is fun to see Trump basically say "Fuck the constitution" because conservatives fucking love the constitution. It puts the Paul Ryans of the world in a tough spot where they have to defend both the constitution, and the president who's never read it. 

Every Executive Order a President does is like an F U to the constitution and congress and the senate.

It's what a president does to move his agenda along when they know it won't pass through as a bipartisan bill.

didn't Obama sign a shitload of EO's?

Typically EOs have had some legislative or judicial precedent behind them and the EO is written in a way to rely on precendent. Its a confirmed right of the executive and I don't have an issue with it being used. However, I do have an issue with how its used. This Administration is justy going willy nilly and not even trying the legislative process first, like Obama did with healthcare, the environment, etc., etc. You want to cancel birthright citizenship? Negotiate it as part of a broader immigration bill, compromise and get it done. And no, there still won't be a wall. But these repub firebrands don't want to do, and don't know how to, and the moderates who do are afraid of being primaried from the right.

To those who want to get rid of birthright citizenship, what determines citizenship?

mrussel1

Halifax2TheMax said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

tempo_n_groove said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

I think birthright citizenship is dumb as hell. But Trump can't just get rid of it through an executive order. Although...it is fun to see Trump basically say "Fuck the constitution" because conservatives fucking love the constitution. It puts the Paul Ryans of the world in a tough spot where they have to defend both the constitution, and the president who's never read it. 

Every Executive Order a President does is like an F U to the constitution and congress and the senate.

It's what a president does to move his agenda along when they know it won't pass through as a bipartisan bill.

didn't Obama sign a shitload of EO's?

Typically EOs have had some legislative or judicial precedent behind them and the EO is written in a way to rely on precendent. Its a confirmed right of the executive and I don't have an issue with it being used. However, I do have an issue with how its used. This Administration is justy going willy nilly and not even trying the legislative process first, like Obama did with healthcare, the environment, etc., etc. You want to cancel birthright citizenship? Negotiate it as part of a broader immigration bill, compromise and get it done. And no, there still won't be a wall. But these repub firebrands don't want to do, and don't know how to, and the moderates who do are afraid of being primaried from the right.

To those who want to get rid of birthright citizenship, what determines citizenship?

You can't negotiate it to get it done, and it can't be part of a bipartisan agreement.  It either needs to be ratified by 2/3 of the states (and Congress) OR there needs to be a Constitutional Convention.  

Halifax2TheMax

mrussel1 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

tempo_n_groove said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

I think birthright citizenship is dumb as hell. But Trump can't just get rid of it through an executive order. Although...it is fun to see Trump basically say "Fuck the constitution" because conservatives fucking love the constitution. It puts the Paul Ryans of the world in a tough spot where they have to defend both the constitution, and the president who's never read it. 

Every Executive Order a President does is like an F U to the constitution and congress and the senate.

It's what a president does to move his agenda along when they know it won't pass through as a bipartisan bill.

didn't Obama sign a shitload of EO's?

Typically EOs have had some legislative or judicial precedent behind them and the EO is written in a way to rely on precendent. Its a confirmed right of the executive and I don't have an issue with it being used. However, I do have an issue with how its used. This Administration is justy going willy nilly and not even trying the legislative process first, like Obama did with healthcare, the environment, etc., etc. You want to cancel birthright citizenship? Negotiate it as part of a broader immigration bill, compromise and get it done. And no, there still won't be a wall. But these repub firebrands don't want to do, and don't know how to, and the moderates who do are afraid of being primaried from the right.

To those who want to get rid of birthright citizenship, what determines citizenship?

You can't negotiate it to get it done, and it can't be part of a bipartisan agreement.  It either needs to be ratified by 2/3 of the states (and Congress) OR there needs to be a Constitutional Convention.  

I understand that an EO cannot remove birthright citizenship. I was referring to EOs in general and what they address. They don't typically try to address an amendment to the constitution. But Team Trump Treason doesn't know that. And an amendment to the constitution needs to be passed by 2/3rds of congress, both houses, first and then 2/3rds of the states. Or a constitutional convention. And EOs have  acheck in the judiciary but we know how thats going.

mrussel1

Halifax2TheMax said:

mrussel1 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

tempo_n_groove said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

I think birthright citizenship is dumb as hell. But Trump can't just get rid of it through an executive order. Although...it is fun to see Trump basically say "Fuck the constitution" because conservatives fucking love the constitution. It puts the Paul Ryans of the world in a tough spot where they have to defend both the constitution, and the president who's never read it. 

Every Executive Order a President does is like an F U to the constitution and congress and the senate.

It's what a president does to move his agenda along when they know it won't pass through as a bipartisan bill.

didn't Obama sign a shitload of EO's?

Typically EOs have had some legislative or judicial precedent behind them and the EO is written in a way to rely on precendent. Its a confirmed right of the executive and I don't have an issue with it being used. However, I do have an issue with how its used. This Administration is justy going willy nilly and not even trying the legislative process first, like Obama did with healthcare, the environment, etc., etc. You want to cancel birthright citizenship? Negotiate it as part of a broader immigration bill, compromise and get it done. And no, there still won't be a wall. But these repub firebrands don't want to do, and don't know how to, and the moderates who do are afraid of being primaried from the right.

To those who want to get rid of birthright citizenship, what determines citizenship?

You can't negotiate it to get it done, and it can't be part of a bipartisan agreement.  It either needs to be ratified by 2/3 of the states (and Congress) OR there needs to be a Constitutional Convention.  

I understand that an EO cannot remove birthright citizenship. I was referring to EOs in general and what they address. They don't typically try to address an amendment to the constitution. But Team Trump Treason doesn't know that. And an amendment to the constitution needs to be passed by 2/3rds of congress, both houses, first and then 2/3rds of the states. Or a constitutional convention. And EOs have  acheck in the judiciary but we know how thats going.

Ok I see.  Because you were talking about immigration, I thought you meant putting the 14th through legislation.  

bootlegger10

mrussel1 said:

bootlegger10 said:

mrussel1 said:

unsung said:

But you're right,  it doesn't apply to the children of ambassadors.  

What would “foreigners, aliens” refer to?  Is it a run on sentence where it is a foreigner who belongs to the family of an ambassador,  or is it in addition to the children of ambassadors?  Since it doesn’t use “or” anywhere in the sentence I would interpret it that all babies born in the US are citizens unless born to a foreign diplomat.   

Of course the above is not written legislation where grammar would be heavily reviewed, but is a verbal record.

But it's irrelevant what one person felt when about the legislation,  the text of the amendment is what matters.  Second,  most importantly,  the potus stating that he can waive it away with an EO is the very definition of totalitarianism.  The constitution and its amendments are the bedrock of our foundation.  Does the the potus get to waive away the first and second with a pen too?  Please tell me you see the danger in his statements. 

The text is what is being debated.  I don't think the President can or should do an executive order, but the language isn't 100% clear in the amendment, which is why you would look at the debates and discussions that led to it to interpret it.  I don't think we should change the current interpretation either, but I can see both sides of the argument. 

Bentleyspop

HughFreakingDillon said:

tempo_n_groove said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

I think birthright citizenship is dumb as hell. But Trump can't just get rid of it through an executive order. Although...it is fun to see Trump basically say "Fuck the constitution" because conservatives fucking love the constitution. It puts the Paul Ryans of the world in a tough spot where they have to defend both the constitution, and the president who's never read it. 

Every Executive Order a President does is like an F U to the constitution and congress and the senate.

It's what a president does to move his agenda along when they know it won't pass through as a bipartisan bill.

didn't Obama sign a shitload of EO's?

#	President	Total Executive Orders
41	George H. W. Bush	166
42	Bill Clinton	364
43	George W. Bush	291
44	Barack Obama	276

PJ_Soul

Bentleyspop said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

tempo_n_groove said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

I think birthright citizenship is dumb as hell. But Trump can't just get rid of it through an executive order. Although...it is fun to see Trump basically say "Fuck the constitution" because conservatives fucking love the constitution. It puts the Paul Ryans of the world in a tough spot where they have to defend both the constitution, and the president who's never read it. 

Every Executive Order a President does is like an F U to the constitution and congress and the senate.

It's what a president does to move his agenda along when they know it won't pass through as a bipartisan bill.

didn't Obama sign a shitload of EO's?

#	President	Total Executive Orders
41	George H. W. Bush	166
42	Bill Clinton	364
43	George W. Bush	291
44	Barack Obama	276

And right now Trump is on pace to out-Executive Order every single one of them.

Halifax2TheMax

bootlegger10 said:

mrussel1 said:

bootlegger10 said:

mrussel1 said:

unsung said:

But you're right,  it doesn't apply to the children of ambassadors.  

What would “foreigners, aliens” refer to?  Is it a run on sentence where it is a foreigner who belongs to the family of an ambassador,  or is it in addition to the children of ambassadors?  Since it doesn’t use “or” anywhere in the sentence I would interpret it that all babies born in the US are citizens unless born to a foreign diplomat.   

Of course the above is not written legislation where grammar would be heavily reviewed, but is a verbal record.

But it's irrelevant what one person felt when about the legislation,  the text of the amendment is what matters.  Second,  most importantly,  the potus stating that he can waive it away with an EO is the very definition of totalitarianism.  The constitution and its amendments are the bedrock of our foundation.  Does the the potus get to waive away the first and second with a pen too?  Please tell me you see the danger in his statements. 

The text is what is being debated.  I don't think the President can or should do an executive order, but the language isn't 100% clear in the amendment, which is why you would look at the debates and discussions that led to it to interpret it.  I don't think we should change the current interpretation either, but I can see both sides of the argument. 

More importantly than the text of debates, you would look for judicial precedent and rulings from previous challenges. This was done previously and the court decided it means what it means, this codifying the law. You need to have an EO that challenges the interpretation on a different premise in order to have a better shot at the court ruling the EO is constitutional. An EO something like, “No child born to a mother and father, both of whom are not or we’re not US citizens by age 16, prior to birth of the child in any US state or territory, shall not be granted a social security number, nor be a citizen, effective immediately.” Then legal challenges can be filed, arguments will be made, wind its way up to the Supreme Court and a decision rendered. As opposed to just issuing an EO that strikes the particular language in question. Can’t do that.

Halifax2TheMax

And how it’s written matters. A lot. Words selected, punctuation used and where as it’s all open to interpretation, “child” versus “person” or something other than “parents.” What about a citizen giving birth in surrogacy for a foreigner, single woman?

And define “citizen.”

cincybearcat

PJ_Soul said:

Bentleyspop said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

tempo_n_groove said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

I think birthright citizenship is dumb as hell. But Trump can't just get rid of it through an executive order. Although...it is fun to see Trump basically say "Fuck the constitution" because conservatives fucking love the constitution. It puts the Paul Ryans of the world in a tough spot where they have to defend both the constitution, and the president who's never read it. 

Every Executive Order a President does is like an F U to the constitution and congress and the senate.

It's what a president does to move his agenda along when they know it won't pass through as a bipartisan bill.

didn't Obama sign a shitload of EO's?

#	President	Total Executive Orders
41	George H. W. Bush	166
42	Bill Clinton	364
43	George W. Bush	291
44	Barack Obama	276

And right now Trump is on pace to out-Executive Order every single one of them.

But he'll never catch FDR!

PJ_Soul

cincybearcat said:

PJ_Soul said:

Bentleyspop said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

tempo_n_groove said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

I think birthright citizenship is dumb as hell. But Trump can't just get rid of it through an executive order. Although...it is fun to see Trump basically say "Fuck the constitution" because conservatives fucking love the constitution. It puts the Paul Ryans of the world in a tough spot where they have to defend both the constitution, and the president who's never read it. 

Every Executive Order a President does is like an F U to the constitution and congress and the senate.

It's what a president does to move his agenda along when they know it won't pass through as a bipartisan bill.

didn't Obama sign a shitload of EO's?

#	President	Total Executive Orders
41	George H. W. Bush	166
42	Bill Clinton	364
43	George W. Bush	291
44	Barack Obama	276

And right now Trump is on pace to out-Executive Order every single one of them.

But he'll never catch FDR!

Because he'll never have have a good enough reason to.

2-feign-reluctance

As the husband of an immigrant, now US citizen, my opinion on it is favorable.

PJ_Soul

Once 20 year olds in college who have never been outside of the USA start getting kicked out of the country, I doubt so many people will be in favour of a such a thing.