MLB 2025 Season

HesCalledDyer

tempo_n_groove said:

HesCalledDyer said:

tempo_n_groove said:

HesCalledDyer said:

tempo_n_groove said:

HesCalledDyer said:

Strip their title, ban Lunlow, Hinch, & any other participant for life.  If we're gonna strip the 1919 White Sox, ban Shoeless Joe for life, ban Pete Rose for life, the same consistency needs to be delivered here. Send a fucking message.  Really think teams & owners give a flying fuck about not having an executive for a year, or losing a couple draft picks that'll likely never sniff the big leagues anyway, or some pocket change in the baseball world?

I mean, some girls who aren't even associated with nor employed by the league showed their boobs and they got a lifetime ban.

You can't compare what the Black sox and Rose did to what the Astros did.  It's not even close.

Sure you can, I just did. And you absolutely can compare the Astros to both.  It's about the punishment fitting the crime and being consistent for cheating the game of baseball on an organizational level.  That's exactly what the Black Sox did (minus Joe Jackson) and exactly what Rose did.  Cheated the game on an organizational level.  How is that not comparable?

Not a very compelling argument, sorry.

Betting on baseball does not equal stealing signs.

Stop comparing the two.  Cheating the game equals cheating the game. Period.

It's not making it equal though.

I think most will agree with me.

Are manslaughter and tax evasion equal?  No, but I can get 5 years for both.

tempo_n_groove

HesCalledDyer said:

tempo_n_groove said:

HesCalledDyer said:

tempo_n_groove said:

HesCalledDyer said:

tempo_n_groove said:

HesCalledDyer said:

Strip their title, ban Lunlow, Hinch, & any other participant for life.  If we're gonna strip the 1919 White Sox, ban Shoeless Joe for life, ban Pete Rose for life, the same consistency needs to be delivered here. Send a fucking message.  Really think teams & owners give a flying fuck about not having an executive for a year, or losing a couple draft picks that'll likely never sniff the big leagues anyway, or some pocket change in the baseball world?

I mean, some girls who aren't even associated with nor employed by the league showed their boobs and they got a lifetime ban.

You can't compare what the Black sox and Rose did to what the Astros did.  It's not even close.

Sure you can, I just did. And you absolutely can compare the Astros to both.  It's about the punishment fitting the crime and being consistent for cheating the game of baseball on an organizational level.  That's exactly what the Black Sox did (minus Joe Jackson) and exactly what Rose did.  Cheated the game on an organizational level.  How is that not comparable?

Not a very compelling argument, sorry.

Betting on baseball does not equal stealing signs.

Stop comparing the two.  Cheating the game equals cheating the game. Period.

It's not making it equal though.

I think most will agree with me.

Are manslaughter and tax evasion equal?  No, but I can get 5 years for both.

One is a felony and one is not...

We can go at this all day.  We should start a poll.  I'm curious actually.

mrussel1

tempo_n_groove said:

HesCalledDyer said:

tempo_n_groove said:

HesCalledDyer said:

tempo_n_groove said:

HesCalledDyer said:

tempo_n_groove said:

HesCalledDyer said:

Strip their title, ban Lunlow, Hinch, & any other participant for life.  If we're gonna strip the 1919 White Sox, ban Shoeless Joe for life, ban Pete Rose for life, the same consistency needs to be delivered here. Send a fucking message.  Really think teams & owners give a flying fuck about not having an executive for a year, or losing a couple draft picks that'll likely never sniff the big leagues anyway, or some pocket change in the baseball world?

I mean, some girls who aren't even associated with nor employed by the league showed their boobs and they got a lifetime ban.

You can't compare what the Black sox and Rose did to what the Astros did.  It's not even close.

Sure you can, I just did. And you absolutely can compare the Astros to both.  It's about the punishment fitting the crime and being consistent for cheating the game of baseball on an organizational level.  That's exactly what the Black Sox did (minus Joe Jackson) and exactly what Rose did.  Cheated the game on an organizational level.  How is that not comparable?

Not a very compelling argument, sorry.

Betting on baseball does not equal stealing signs.

Stop comparing the two.  Cheating the game equals cheating the game. Period.

It's not making it equal though.

I think most will agree with me.

Are manslaughter and tax evasion equal?  No, but I can get 5 years for both.

One is a felony and one is not...

We can go at this all day.  We should start a poll.  I'm curious actually.

what's the core question?

HesCalledDyer

mrussel1 said:

tempo_n_groove said:

HesCalledDyer said:

tempo_n_groove said:

HesCalledDyer said:

tempo_n_groove said:

HesCalledDyer said:

tempo_n_groove said:

HesCalledDyer said:

Strip their title, ban Lunlow, Hinch, & any other participant for life.  If we're gonna strip the 1919 White Sox, ban Shoeless Joe for life, ban Pete Rose for life, the same consistency needs to be delivered here. Send a fucking message.  Really think teams & owners give a flying fuck about not having an executive for a year, or losing a couple draft picks that'll likely never sniff the big leagues anyway, or some pocket change in the baseball world?

I mean, some girls who aren't even associated with nor employed by the league showed their boobs and they got a lifetime ban.

You can't compare what the Black sox and Rose did to what the Astros did.  It's not even close.

Sure you can, I just did. And you absolutely can compare the Astros to both.  It's about the punishment fitting the crime and being consistent for cheating the game of baseball on an organizational level.  That's exactly what the Black Sox did (minus Joe Jackson) and exactly what Rose did.  Cheated the game on an organizational level.  How is that not comparable?

Not a very compelling argument, sorry.

Betting on baseball does not equal stealing signs.

Stop comparing the two.  Cheating the game equals cheating the game. Period.

It's not making it equal though.

I think most will agree with me.

Are manslaughter and tax evasion equal?  No, but I can get 5 years for both.

One is a felony and one is not...

We can go at this all day.  We should start a poll.  I'm curious actually.

what's the core question?

Just a discussion on whether the punishment fits the crime or not.  All I said is if we are gonna ban Jackson & Rose for life the punishment for this should be as severe.  To which Chris argued that you can't compare the crimes.  It's not about comparing the crimes or the crimes being the exact same thing (or not), it's about scaring the shit out of everyone else from doing it again.

HesCalledDyer

tempo_n_groove said:

HesCalledDyer said:

tempo_n_groove said:

HesCalledDyer said:

tempo_n_groove said:

HesCalledDyer said:

tempo_n_groove said:

HesCalledDyer said:

Strip their title, ban Lunlow, Hinch, & any other participant for life.  If we're gonna strip the 1919 White Sox, ban Shoeless Joe for life, ban Pete Rose for life, the same consistency needs to be delivered here. Send a fucking message.  Really think teams & owners give a flying fuck about not having an executive for a year, or losing a couple draft picks that'll likely never sniff the big leagues anyway, or some pocket change in the baseball world?

I mean, some girls who aren't even associated with nor employed by the league showed their boobs and they got a lifetime ban.

You can't compare what the Black sox and Rose did to what the Astros did.  It's not even close.

Sure you can, I just did. And you absolutely can compare the Astros to both.  It's about the punishment fitting the crime and being consistent for cheating the game of baseball on an organizational level.  That's exactly what the Black Sox did (minus Joe Jackson) and exactly what Rose did.  Cheated the game on an organizational level.  How is that not comparable?

Not a very compelling argument, sorry.

Betting on baseball does not equal stealing signs.

Stop comparing the two.  Cheating the game equals cheating the game. Period.

It's not making it equal though.

I think most will agree with me.

Are manslaughter and tax evasion equal?  No, but I can get 5 years for both.

One is a felony and one is not...

We can go at this all day.  We should start a poll.  I'm curious actually.

I already said the two weren't equal crimes.  They can carry the same sentence though.

HesCalledDyer

Regardless, I think the punishment is weak and the World Series should be vacated.  I know why MLB won't even touch that, though as it opens up 29 other huge cans of worms.  At the very least, Hinch & Lunlow should get a lifetime ban.

Does anyone really think any team's front office is going to be deterred by this now?  Hell I'd take a one year suspension of Jed Hoyer & David Ross for another Cubs World Series title any day.

Jearlpam0925

My poll response is they are not the same and sign stealing should not be deserving of the Death Penalty.

pjsteelerfan

HesCalledDyer said:

Regardless, I think the punishment is weak and the World Series should be vacated.  I know why MLB won't even touch that, though as it opens up 29 other huge cans of worms.  At the very least, Hinch & Lunlow should get a lifetime ban.

Does anyone really think any team's front office is going to be deterred by this now?  Hell I'd take a one year suspension of Jed Hoyer & David Ross for another Cubs World Series title any day.

The punishment would much harsher if it happens again.  

mrussel1

HesCalledDyer said:

mrussel1 said:

tempo_n_groove said:

HesCalledDyer said:

tempo_n_groove said:

HesCalledDyer said:

tempo_n_groove said:

HesCalledDyer said:

tempo_n_groove said:

HesCalledDyer said:

Strip their title, ban Lunlow, Hinch, & any other participant for life.  If we're gonna strip the 1919 White Sox, ban Shoeless Joe for life, ban Pete Rose for life, the same consistency needs to be delivered here. Send a fucking message.  Really think teams & owners give a flying fuck about not having an executive for a year, or losing a couple draft picks that'll likely never sniff the big leagues anyway, or some pocket change in the baseball world?

I mean, some girls who aren't even associated with nor employed by the league showed their boobs and they got a lifetime ban.

You can't compare what the Black sox and Rose did to what the Astros did.  It's not even close.

Sure you can, I just did. And you absolutely can compare the Astros to both.  It's about the punishment fitting the crime and being consistent for cheating the game of baseball on an organizational level.  That's exactly what the Black Sox did (minus Joe Jackson) and exactly what Rose did.  Cheated the game on an organizational level.  How is that not comparable?

Not a very compelling argument, sorry.

Betting on baseball does not equal stealing signs.

Stop comparing the two.  Cheating the game equals cheating the game. Period.

It's not making it equal though.

I think most will agree with me.

Are manslaughter and tax evasion equal?  No, but I can get 5 years for both.

One is a felony and one is not...

We can go at this all day.  We should start a poll.  I'm curious actually.

what's the core question?

Just a discussion on whether the punishment fits the crime or not.  All I said is if we are gonna ban Jackson & Rose for life the punishment for this should be as severe.  To which Chris argued that you can't compare the crimes.  It's not about comparing the crimes or the crimes being the exact same thing (or not), it's about scaring the shit out of everyone else from doing it again.

Yeah I don't know that crimes need to be exact.  IMO, I think the punishment is weak sauce, particularly for the owner who gets out of it with a WS ring.  I do believe that that systematic stealing of signs, using technology, is a terrible crime in baseball.  When no one is on base, a battery has never had to run multiple signs and indicators.  It's one sign and pitch.  A batter knowing precisely what is coming is an enormous and unfair advantage, dramatically tipping the scales towards the batter.  The punishment should have been worse.

Ledbetterman10

So according to the investigation, the whole thing was player-driven. Hinch knew about the sign stealing, and TRIED to stop it by smashing the monitor that they were getting the signs from centerfield with, but it continued on. TRIED???? 

So basically, Hinch is Joe Paterno in this scenario. He knew something was wrong, did the bare minimum to try to stop it, and when it didn't stop, he just went on with his life. 

I think MLB was WAY too lenient here. Hinch and Lunlow should be banned for life. Not that anyone will ever hire them again, but still. And there should be discipline for the players if it was really player-driven. I suspected earlier that they were doing what they're told. But it seems they were the culprits. My gut says Bregman is at the center of this. Not sure why. Just seems like a shady little fuck. 

pjhawks

Ledbetterman10 said:

So according to the investigation, the whole thing was player-driven. Hinch knew about the sign stealing, and TRIED to stop it by smashing the monitor that they were getting the signs from centerfield with, but it continued on. TRIED???? 

So basically, Hinch is Joe Paterno in this scenario. He knew something was wrong, did the bare minimum to try to stop it, and when it didn't stop, he just went on with his life. 

I think MLB was WAY too lenient here. Hinch and Lunlow should be banned for life. Not that anyone will ever hire them again, but still. And there should be discipline for the players if it was really player-driven. I suspected earlier that they were doing what they're told. But it seems they were the culprits. My gut says Bregman is at the center of this. Not sure why. Just seems like a shady little fuck. 

my opinion is they have to punish the players involved in this. hand out suspensions. who cares if they are on other teams now. you cannot let individuals get away with cheating to steal a world series like this. oh and they should at the very least put an * on the World Series title for the Astros and probably the Red Sox.  

Jearlpam0925

Changing the subject - this is cool:  https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=F2E5D8FC5199DFAF!17003&ithint=file,xlsx&authkey=!ALD8BEbKmTajwcI

tbergs

I agree with the punishments given out at the administrative level, but they need to dig in further and shove this back on the players as well. If they need to interview more people and determine who were the key people driving this, then do it and suspend based on involvement. They came down hard without doing all the heavy lifting needed to hand out the proper justice all around. Maybe they thought this would satiate the naysayers in to ignoring punishment to the players or stripping the title, but I think they could easily push this down to individual players if they wanted.

Also strip the title and suspend the team from the playoffs for the upcoming year at least. Make these assholes start over with nothing. Sucks for anyone that just signed on to them, but I would wager they don't want to be associated with a cheating organization.

mrussel1

tbergs said:

I agree with the punishments given out at the administrative level, but they need to dig in further and shove this back on the players as well. If they need to interview more people and determine who were the key people driving this, then do it and suspend based on involvement. They came down hard without doing all the heavy lifting needed to hand out the proper justice all around. Maybe they thought this would satiate the naysayers in to ignoring punishment to the players or stripping the title, but I think they could easily push this down to individual players if they wanted.

Also strip the title and suspend the team from the playoffs for the upcoming year at least. Make these assholes start over with nothing. Sucks for anyone that just signed on to them, but I would wager they don't want to be associated with a cheating organization.

Few things...
1. According to ESPN, the players were given immunity in exchange for testimony.
2. MLBPA would be a real hurdle to the type of suspension people are discussing.
3. Suspending the teams from the playoffs would destroy the season and essentially destroy ticket sales and ad revenue for the year.  I don't see how that is any good.  Plus there are plenty of players on each team that were not on the team during the events in question.  

I do think the titles should be stripped.  Take down those pennants, remove the records, etc.  I'm sure the negative to it is the gaping holes in WS records that will remind everyone of this issue 50 years from now.  You will freeze the event in infamy, which I'm sure the league doesn't want.  

tbergs

mrussel1 said:

tbergs said:

I agree with the punishments given out at the administrative level, but they need to dig in further and shove this back on the players as well. If they need to interview more people and determine who were the key people driving this, then do it and suspend based on involvement. They came down hard without doing all the heavy lifting needed to hand out the proper justice all around. Maybe they thought this would satiate the naysayers in to ignoring punishment to the players or stripping the title, but I think they could easily push this down to individual players if they wanted.

Also strip the title and suspend the team from the playoffs for the upcoming year at least. Make these assholes start over with nothing. Sucks for anyone that just signed on to them, but I would wager they don't want to be associated with a cheating organization.

Few things...
1. According to ESPN, the players were given immunity in exchange for testimony.
2. MLBPA would be a real hurdle to the type of suspension people are discussing.
3. Suspending the teams from the playoffs would destroy the season and essentially destroy ticket sales and ad revenue for the year.  I don't see how that is any good.  Plus there are plenty of players on each team that were not on the team during the events in question.  

I do think the titles should be stripped.  Take down those pennants, remove the records, etc.  I'm sure the negative to it is the gaping holes in WS records that will remind everyone of this issue 50 years from now.  You will freeze the event in infamy, which I'm sure the league doesn't want.  

Good points. I know it is a shit storm if they take those actions and pretty much destroys the team for the year, but with the current penalties, it's just a bit embarrassing and they may be slightly ridiculed, but it's nothing that makes that WS go away or the chance to get another one this year. Does MLB really want the Astros to win the 2020 WS? What a fucking joke that would be. Hey everybody, we kind of got punished, but still were allowed to contend in the playoffs, not have any players get suspended and win a title. Trust us, we did it all on our own this year. I mean, what Penn State did was way worse, but they still got a 4 year post season ban. There needs to be a little more organizational pain inflicted here. So far people have been punished, but the team remains the same.

mrussel1

tbergs said:

mrussel1 said:

tbergs said:

I agree with the punishments given out at the administrative level, but they need to dig in further and shove this back on the players as well. If they need to interview more people and determine who were the key people driving this, then do it and suspend based on involvement. They came down hard without doing all the heavy lifting needed to hand out the proper justice all around. Maybe they thought this would satiate the naysayers in to ignoring punishment to the players or stripping the title, but I think they could easily push this down to individual players if they wanted.

Also strip the title and suspend the team from the playoffs for the upcoming year at least. Make these assholes start over with nothing. Sucks for anyone that just signed on to them, but I would wager they don't want to be associated with a cheating organization.

Few things...
1. According to ESPN, the players were given immunity in exchange for testimony.
2. MLBPA would be a real hurdle to the type of suspension people are discussing.
3. Suspending the teams from the playoffs would destroy the season and essentially destroy ticket sales and ad revenue for the year.  I don't see how that is any good.  Plus there are plenty of players on each team that were not on the team during the events in question.  

I do think the titles should be stripped.  Take down those pennants, remove the records, etc.  I'm sure the negative to it is the gaping holes in WS records that will remind everyone of this issue 50 years from now.  You will freeze the event in infamy, which I'm sure the league doesn't want.  

Good points. I know it is a shit storm if they take those actions and pretty much destroys the team for the year, but with the current penalties, it's just a bit embarrassing and they may be slightly ridiculed, but it's nothing that makes that WS go away or the chance to get another one this year. Does MLB really want the Astros to win the 2020 WS? What a fucking joke that would be. Hey everybody, we kind of got punished, but still were allowed to contend in the playoffs, not have any players get suspended and win a title. Trust us, we did it all on our own this year. I mean, what Penn State did was way worse, but they still got a 4 year post season ban. There needs to be a little more organizational pain inflicted here. So far people have been punished, but the team remains the same.

there's no good solution.  They already fined the club the max.  At the end of the day, people sort of forget that the commissioner works for the owners, so there's no doubt that they all had a say into this punishment, knowing full well it could be them one day.  

tempo_n_groove

tbergs said:

mrussel1 said:

tbergs said:

I agree with the punishments given out at the administrative level, but they need to dig in further and shove this back on the players as well. If they need to interview more people and determine who were the key people driving this, then do it and suspend based on involvement. They came down hard without doing all the heavy lifting needed to hand out the proper justice all around. Maybe they thought this would satiate the naysayers in to ignoring punishment to the players or stripping the title, but I think they could easily push this down to individual players if they wanted.

Also strip the title and suspend the team from the playoffs for the upcoming year at least. Make these assholes start over with nothing. Sucks for anyone that just signed on to them, but I would wager they don't want to be associated with a cheating organization.

Few things...
1. According to ESPN, the players were given immunity in exchange for testimony.
2. MLBPA would be a real hurdle to the type of suspension people are discussing.
3. Suspending the teams from the playoffs would destroy the season and essentially destroy ticket sales and ad revenue for the year.  I don't see how that is any good.  Plus there are plenty of players on each team that were not on the team during the events in question.  

I do think the titles should be stripped.  Take down those pennants, remove the records, etc.  I'm sure the negative to it is the gaping holes in WS records that will remind everyone of this issue 50 years from now.  You will freeze the event in infamy, which I'm sure the league doesn't want.  

Good points. I know it is a shit storm if they take those actions and pretty much destroys the team for the year, but with the current penalties, it's just a bit embarrassing and they may be slightly ridiculed, but it's nothing that makes that WS go away or the chance to get another one this year. Does MLB really want the Astros to win the 2020 WS? What a fucking joke that would be. Hey everybody, we kind of got punished, but still were allowed to contend in the playoffs, not have any players get suspended and win a title. Trust us, we did it all on our own this year. I mean, what Penn State did was way worse, but they still got a 4 year post season ban. There needs to be a little more organizational pain inflicted here. So far people have been punished, but the team remains the same.

Raping little boys should never be or try to be, in the same realm as anything but that.  Comparing it, though you said it does not compare, is  ridiculous...

If the Astros win next year it would be because of who they drafted, Correa, Bregman, Altuve, Springer, etc.

Something that everyone forgets is that the owners wrote the rules and the penalties being handed out are from them so that 5 mill is pocket change.  The Stros owner did do the right thing in firing the coach and the GM though.

Going after players and penalizing them is going to be a tough hoop to jump through.  They have immunity now so that is moot but, if they did then they would have to have enough evidence to convict them and I am not sure that would have been possible?

tempo_n_groove

A lot of good convo going on here though.  I like this.

Ledbetterman10

tbergs said:

I agree with the punishments given out at the administrative level, but they need to dig in further and shove this back on the players as well. If they need to interview more people and determine who were the key people driving this, then do it and suspend based on involvement. They came down hard without doing all the heavy lifting needed to hand out the proper justice all around. Maybe they thought this would satiate the naysayers in to ignoring punishment to the players or stripping the title, but I think they could easily push this down to individual players if they wanted.

Also strip the title and suspend the team from the playoffs for the upcoming year at least. Make these assholes start over with nothing. Sucks for anyone that just signed on to them, but I would wager they don't want to be associated with a cheating organization.

Agreed. Turn them have into the Indians at the beginning of the movie Major League. 

mrussel1

Ledbetterman10 said:

tbergs said:

I agree with the punishments given out at the administrative level, but they need to dig in further and shove this back on the players as well. If they need to interview more people and determine who were the key people driving this, then do it and suspend based on involvement. They came down hard without doing all the heavy lifting needed to hand out the proper justice all around. Maybe they thought this would satiate the naysayers in to ignoring punishment to the players or stripping the title, but I think they could easily push this down to individual players if they wanted.

Also strip the title and suspend the team from the playoffs for the upcoming year at least. Make these assholes start over with nothing. Sucks for anyone that just signed on to them, but I would wager they don't want to be associated with a cheating organization.

Agreed. Turn them have into the Indians at the beginning of the movie Major League. 

We had Willie Mays Hayes... aka Kenny Lofton.