Baseball desperately needs it. I think what they will end up doing is having a 5th ump upstairs and will buzz down when that get it wrong. It won't be like current home run reviews. Too many bad calls that impact games though.
i dunno. i'm okay with hr calls. but this is how it starts. replay in football was okay at first. now it takes forever. they're even reviewing way too many last second shots/close 3 point plays in the nba too much.
the human element is one of the cool old school things that separated this sport from the rest.
i wouldn't put it past bud selig to find a way to screw this up.
I don't know. Look at the twins play in 2009 against the yankees. That can't happen in sports with that much on the line. Football review is horrible but if baseball can figure out a system where they figure it out in real time, I am all for it. Have a 5th ump who calls or buzzes down immediately. I mean umps can already be overruled by other umps so why not have one that can review plays immediately.
I don't know. Look at the twins play in 2009 against the yankees. That can't happen in sports with that much on the line. Football review is horrible but if baseball can figure out a system where they figure it out in real time, I am all for it. Have a 5th ump who calls or buzzes down immediately. I mean umps can already be overruled by other umps so why not have one that can review plays immediately.
Everyone complains about slowing the game down with replays but they don't say a word when a manager comes out and argues for 5-10 minutes on a call that isnt going to be changed
I'd rather have that time spent reviewing the call and getting it right
My drinking team has a hockey problem
The ONLY thing better than a glass of beer is tea with Miss McGill
A protuberance of flesh above the waistband of a tight pair of trousers
I don't know. Look at the twins play in 2009 against the yankees. That can't happen in sports with that much on the line. Football review is horrible but if baseball can figure out a system where they figure it out in real time, I am all for it. Have a 5th ump who calls or buzzes down immediately. I mean umps can already be overruled by other umps so why not have one that can review plays immediately.
Everyone complains about slowing the game down with replays but they don't say a word when a manager comes out and argues for 5-10 minutes on a call that isnt going to be changed
I'd rather have that time spent reviewing the call and getting it right
that's more entertaining than watching a dude watch tv
I don't know. Look at the twins play in 2009 against the yankees. That can't happen in sports with that much on the line. Football review is horrible but if baseball can figure out a system where they figure it out in real time, I am all for it. Have a 5th ump who calls or buzzes down immediately. I mean umps can already be overruled by other umps so why not have one that can review plays immediately.
yeah i remember that play. there was also that play in the '85 series was it? that close play at first that the ump completely missed. phils/dodgers back in '77 or so had a similar bad call happen.
shit happens. every once in a while an ump will miss a call. the overwhelming majority of times they will get it right. we've gotten along fine for well over a century without replay.
even with the bad call by jim joyce last year...baseball's the only sport i know of that can create that touching storyline where people actually felt bad for both joyce and galarragra. they both handled it with such class. it turned into a great moment imo.
it's an imperfect game. i'm okay with it........i can see your yankees/sox games lasting 7 hours 10 years from now.
I hear what you are saying and I agree to an extent. I have been against replay in baseball until recently. I just thinking the technology is there and it can be done quickly, why not get it right.
Do agree about the Joyce play, but as touching as it was, dude should have a perfect game.
Agreed, more people will remember him because of how it happened but the guy did something only a handful of players in baseball history have done, and he's not in the books for it.
I don't want games to be slowed down at all but if they can't get it right quickly, get it right.
Agreed, more people will remember him because of how it happened but the guy did something only a handful of players in baseball history have done, and he's not in the books for it.
I don't want games to be slowed down at all but if they can't get it right quickly, get it right.
i'm with you...guess my point is no other sport has been able to get it right and have zero faith bud selig will find a way.
Could be a pretty serious injury for mauer. That would be incredibly sad. They need to get him off catcher asap.
I know a team with a couple surplus catching prospects and i know a team with a pitcher i would love to have. No montero, no banuelos, all others are available.
Could be a pretty serious injury for mauer. That would be incredibly sad. They need to get him off catcher asap.
I know a team with a couple surplus catching prospects and i know a team with a pitcher i would love to have. No montero, no banuelos, all others are available.
i post on the board of a band that doesn't exsist anymore .......i need my head examined.......
Really??? I know my boy is guilty...but come on, fuckers :roll: . you got what you got, after 7+ years of trying.
Updated: April 14, 2011, 6:32 PM ET Feds ponder move in Barry Bonds case
SAN FRANCISCO -- After years of investigation, three weeks of trial and millions of dollars spent pursuing Barry Bonds, federal prosecutors were back where they started Thursday -- deciding whether to try to prove the home run king's records were built with steroids and lies.
On Wednesday, the jury that was to finally decide whether Bonds deceived a grand jury in 2003 when he denied knowingly using performance-enhancing drugs instead left the issue deeply unresolved.
The panel of eight women and four men convicted Bonds of obstructing justice but deadlocked on the three charges at the heart of the government's perjury case, including two counts of lying about the use of steroids and human growth hormone. U.S. District Judge Susan Illston declared a mistrial on those three charges.
Now, prosecutors must weigh whether to spend still more money, and staff time, conducting another trial. They typically take into account a hung jury's vote when making such a call, but legal analysts warn that the Bonds trial was very different from the typical criminal case and the usual practices don't apply to such a high-profile defendant.
What's more, the jury's vote on the deadlocked counts were inconsistent. A majority of jurors voted to acquit Bonds on the drug-related charges while voting 11-1 to convict him of lying about never receiving injections from anyone but his doctor.
Further, the judge who would preside over the new trial has been showing impatience with a case that reaches back to Dec. 4, 2003. That's the day Bonds testified before a grand jury investigating an international sports doping ring centered at the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative, also known as BALCO.
Amid the confusion and frustration of Wednesday's muddled verdict, Illston sharply cut off Assistant U.S. Attorney Matthew Parrella's argument that the government need not decide immediately about a new trial.
"The trial is over and we don't need any more speeches," she said.
It wasn't the first time she displayed displeasure with the prosecution during the trial -- and the more than three years Bonds has been under indictment.
But the judge did agree that prosecutors could decide later about a new trial. She set a May 20 hearing to discuss that issue and to schedule a sentencing date for Bonds.
An obvious calculation will be whether it's worth the effort.
Vermont Law School professor Michael McCann and others who followed the trial said it's impossible to put an exact dollar figure on the government's expenditure in pursuit of Bonds. The government doesn't do its accounting on a per-defendant basis. Still, it's clear the figure is substantial, he said.
"The government has spent millions of dollars and hours and is being questioned over whether that time and money could have been better spent elsewhere," said McCann, who specializes in sports law. "There's also a fatigue factor setting in."
Indeed, outside pressure is mounting. Rep. Jack Kingston of Georgia recently questioned at a congressional hearing whether top BALCO investigator Jeff Novitzky was motivated by trying to bring down a celebrity.
"What bothers me is that you've got a very powerful federal government that has the money and time and resources to ruin someone's reputation," Kingston told The Associated Press after the verdict. "Why did it take eight years to get to this point on Barry Bonds? And with all the problems we've got, why are we sitting here at the end of an eight-year investigation?"
Analysts and observers are split over the wisdom of a retrial, with U.S. Attorney Melinda Haag only saying in a written statement that a decision would be made as soon as possible.
"A retrial is warranted," said Stanford University law professor William Gould, who as chair of the National Labor Relations Board cast the decisive vote to end the baseball strike of the 1990s. "At a minimum, they should retry Bonds on his injection testimony."
Gould said that the "the government was fighting with one hand behind its back" because Bonds' former personal trainer Greg Anderson refused to testify. Prosecutors allege Anderson supplied Bonds with performance-enhancing drugs, but the judge excluded that evidence from the trial because the trainer wouldn't take the witness stand. Anderson spent the duration of the trial in prison on contempt charges and his lawyer Mark Geragos said he will never testify against Bonds.
"The government will be satisfied with the one felony conviction," said defense attorney William Keane, "especially given the hurdle they had to overcome because of Anderson."
Keane represented former track coach Trevor Graham, who was charged with three counts of lying to BALCO investigators. After a trial in front of Illston, a jury found Graham guilty on one charge but deadlocked on two others. Illston declared a mistrial on those two charges, which prosecutors dropped in July 2008 after Graham agreed not to appeal his conviction.
Keane said he doubted the government would offer Bonds a similar deal -- or that Bonds would agree to such an arrangement.
"There's been too much baggage," Keane said.
Bonds attorney Dennis Riordan is already contesting the obstruction charge. Riordan on Wednesday asked Illston to toss out the guilty verdict on several grounds. The judge will rule on the request later, after both sides submit legal arguments.
At least eight of the 12 jurors said prosecutors failed to show that Bonds knew he was taking steroids and human growth hormone. Prosecutors must also wrestle with jurors who pointed to credibility gaps with a trio of key government witnesses -- Bonds' ex-business partner Steve Hoskins and ex-mistress Kimberly Bell, both of whom came off as somewhat bitter, and Bonds' personal shopper, Kathy Hoskins, who is Steve's sister.
Jury foreman Fred Jacob of Marin City said it would take more evidence than prosecutors presented to convict Bonds on those remaining charges.
"This cost the citizens a lot of money to bring him to court," Jacob said. "They're going to have to even do more homework than they already did."
If I had known then what I know now...
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The standards are high in a court of law, as they should be. For the Hall, it's a judgment call. Scoundrels and cheats are already in. So are foul-tempered jerks. Bonds may be all three. He is also one of the three greatest players I ever saw in his prime, along with Alex Rodriguez and Rickey Henderson. A baseball Hall of Fame would be empty without Bonds.
While I do believe Bonds took steroids (whether it was knowingly or not doesn't much matter to me, though if I had to guess, I think he knows everything that goes in his body), I don't believe all steroid users should be excluded from the Hall of Fame. I'm not here to sit in moral judgment of another human being.
Rickey Henderson is my favorite athelete of all time. By far. Most underrated offensive player in MLB history. He and KGJ are best non-juice offensive players of my generation.
Baseball desperately needs it. I think what they will end up doing is having a 5th ump upstairs and will buzz down when that get it wrong. It won't be like current home run reviews. Too many bad calls that impact games though.
i dunno. i'm okay with hr calls. but this is how it starts. replay in football was okay at first. now it takes forever. they're even reviewing way too many last second shots/close 3 point plays in the nba too much.
the human element is one of the cool old school things that separated this sport from the rest.
i wouldn't put it past bud selig to find a way to screw this up.
gotta agree with juggs here. Replay sucks. NFL still cant get calls right...and it takes forever.
replay would eliminate manager arguments. that would be a travesty
keep it as is. add a 5th, 6th, or 7th ump in need be. just please no replay
Could be a pretty serious injury for mauer. That would be incredibly sad. They need to get him off catcher asap.
I know a team with a couple surplus catching prospects and i know a team with a pitcher i would love to have. No montero, no banuelos, all others are available.
he's always hurt. the twins suck anyway. the central divisions in both leagues need to be eliminated. go back to 2 divisions in each league and eliminate interleague play. the central teams are a bye come playoff time.
Psyched that my two fave teams have the best records so far.
Go Phillies & Rockies!
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Rickey Henderson is my favorite athelete of all time. By far. Most underrated offensive player in MLB history. He and KGJ are best non-juice offensive players of my generation.
rickey henderson? non-juice? the circumstantial evidence would lead me to think otherwise :?
but he's in the HOF and even if he wasn't a user, I think you'll agree that some users will slip in...and, in my mind, that's not fair to the ones who will be forever excluded. hell, just note it on their plaques -PED user, whatever.
If I had known then what I know now...
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Rickey Henderson is my favorite athelete of all time. By far. Most underrated offensive player in MLB history. He and KGJ are best non-juice offensive players of my generation.
rickey henderson? non-juice? the circumstantial evidence would lead me to think otherwise :?
but he's in the HOF and even if he wasn't a user, I think you'll agree that some users will slip in...and, in my mind, that's not fair to the ones who will be forever excluded. hell, just note it on their plaques -PED user, whatever.
look at his stats from 1981. they didn't have juice back then. then 1990. no balco yet.
Rickey Henderson...Ken Griffey. Two best non-juicers of my generation (I'm 33)
look at his stats from 1981. they didn't have juice back then. then 1990. no balco yet.
actually, they did. NFLers were taking roids in the 60s. Look at rickey's phyique; look who he played with. I'm just saying...
don't get me wrong, though. He was a special player in any circumstance.
If I had known then what I know now...
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
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Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
I don't know. Look at the twins play in 2009 against the yankees. That can't happen in sports with that much on the line. Football review is horrible but if baseball can figure out a system where they figure it out in real time, I am all for it. Have a 5th ump who calls or buzzes down immediately. I mean umps can already be overruled by other umps so why not have one that can review plays immediately.
Everyone complains about slowing the game down with replays but they don't say a word when a manager comes out and argues for 5-10 minutes on a call that isnt going to be changed
I'd rather have that time spent reviewing the call and getting it right
Lou Pinella argument > Replay.
Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
I don't know. Look at the twins play in 2009 against the yankees. That can't happen in sports with that much on the line. Football review is horrible but if baseball can figure out a system where they figure it out in real time, I am all for it. Have a 5th ump who calls or buzzes down immediately. I mean umps can already be overruled by other umps so why not have one that can review plays immediately.
Everyone complains about slowing the game down with replays but they don't say a word when a manager comes out and argues for 5-10 minutes on a call that isnt going to be changed
I'd rather have that time spent reviewing the call and getting it right
Lou Pinella argument > Replay.
It may be longer, but it's also 100% more entertaining
I loved watching Bobby Cox give an umpire a piece of his mind (and some spit and some dirt)
Rickey Henderson is my favorite athelete of all time. By far. Most underrated offensive player in MLB history. He and KGJ are best non-juice offensive players of my generation.
rickey henderson? non-juice? the circumstantial evidence would lead me to think otherwise :?
but he's in the HOF and even if he wasn't a user, I think you'll agree that some users will slip in...and, in my mind, that's not fair to the ones who will be forever excluded. hell, just note it on their plaques -PED user, whatever.
look at his stats from 1981. they didn't have juice back then. then 1990. no balco yet.
Rickey Henderson...Ken Griffey. Two best non-juicers of my generation (I'm 33)
and mike leake, with his $425K salary, can't afford to pay for T-SHIRTS :roll:
If I had known then what I know now...
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Comments
i dunno. i'm okay with hr calls. but this is how it starts. replay in football was okay at first. now it takes forever. they're even reviewing way too many last second shots/close 3 point plays in the nba too much.
the human element is one of the cool old school things that separated this sport from the rest.
i wouldn't put it past bud selig to find a way to screw this up.
now jeags, lets be fair...what has bud ever screwed up?
oh yeah :(
Everyone complains about slowing the game down with replays but they don't say a word when a manager comes out and argues for 5-10 minutes on a call that isnt going to be changed
I'd rather have that time spent reviewing the call and getting it right
The ONLY thing better than a glass of beer is tea with Miss McGill
A protuberance of flesh above the waistband of a tight pair of trousers
that's more entertaining than watching a dude watch tv
yeah i remember that play. there was also that play in the '85 series was it? that close play at first that the ump completely missed. phils/dodgers back in '77 or so had a similar bad call happen.
shit happens. every once in a while an ump will miss a call. the overwhelming majority of times they will get it right. we've gotten along fine for well over a century without replay.
even with the bad call by jim joyce last year...baseball's the only sport i know of that can create that touching storyline where people actually felt bad for both joyce and galarragra. they both handled it with such class. it turned into a great moment imo.
it's an imperfect game. i'm okay with it........i can see your yankees/sox games lasting 7 hours 10 years from now.
Do agree about the Joyce play, but as touching as it was, dude should have a perfect game.
agreed.....however people will talk/debate about this for far longer than they would have talked about his perfect game.
I don't want games to be slowed down at all but if they can't get it right quickly, get it right.
i'm with you...guess my point is no other sport has been able to get it right and have zero faith bud selig will find a way.
I know a team with a couple surplus catching prospects and i know a team with a pitcher i would love to have. No montero, no banuelos, all others are available.
Updated: April 14, 2011, 6:32 PM ET
Feds ponder move in Barry Bonds case
SAN FRANCISCO -- After years of investigation, three weeks of trial and millions of dollars spent pursuing Barry Bonds, federal prosecutors were back where they started Thursday -- deciding whether to try to prove the home run king's records were built with steroids and lies.
On Wednesday, the jury that was to finally decide whether Bonds deceived a grand jury in 2003 when he denied knowingly using performance-enhancing drugs instead left the issue deeply unresolved.
The panel of eight women and four men convicted Bonds of obstructing justice but deadlocked on the three charges at the heart of the government's perjury case, including two counts of lying about the use of steroids and human growth hormone. U.S. District Judge Susan Illston declared a mistrial on those three charges.
Now, prosecutors must weigh whether to spend still more money, and staff time, conducting another trial. They typically take into account a hung jury's vote when making such a call, but legal analysts warn that the Bonds trial was very different from the typical criminal case and the usual practices don't apply to such a high-profile defendant.
What's more, the jury's vote on the deadlocked counts were inconsistent. A majority of jurors voted to acquit Bonds on the drug-related charges while voting 11-1 to convict him of lying about never receiving injections from anyone but his doctor.
Further, the judge who would preside over the new trial has been showing impatience with a case that reaches back to Dec. 4, 2003. That's the day Bonds testified before a grand jury investigating an international sports doping ring centered at the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative, also known as BALCO.
Amid the confusion and frustration of Wednesday's muddled verdict, Illston sharply cut off Assistant U.S. Attorney Matthew Parrella's argument that the government need not decide immediately about a new trial.
"The trial is over and we don't need any more speeches," she said.
It wasn't the first time she displayed displeasure with the prosecution during the trial -- and the more than three years Bonds has been under indictment.
But the judge did agree that prosecutors could decide later about a new trial. She set a May 20 hearing to discuss that issue and to schedule a sentencing date for Bonds.
An obvious calculation will be whether it's worth the effort.
Vermont Law School professor Michael McCann and others who followed the trial said it's impossible to put an exact dollar figure on the government's expenditure in pursuit of Bonds. The government doesn't do its accounting on a per-defendant basis. Still, it's clear the figure is substantial, he said.
"The government has spent millions of dollars and hours and is being questioned over whether that time and money could have been better spent elsewhere," said McCann, who specializes in sports law. "There's also a fatigue factor setting in."
Indeed, outside pressure is mounting. Rep. Jack Kingston of Georgia recently questioned at a congressional hearing whether top BALCO investigator Jeff Novitzky was motivated by trying to bring down a celebrity.
"What bothers me is that you've got a very powerful federal government that has the money and time and resources to ruin someone's reputation," Kingston told The Associated Press after the verdict. "Why did it take eight years to get to this point on Barry Bonds? And with all the problems we've got, why are we sitting here at the end of an eight-year investigation?"
Analysts and observers are split over the wisdom of a retrial, with U.S. Attorney Melinda Haag only saying in a written statement that a decision would be made as soon as possible.
"A retrial is warranted," said Stanford University law professor William Gould, who as chair of the National Labor Relations Board cast the decisive vote to end the baseball strike of the 1990s. "At a minimum, they should retry Bonds on his injection testimony."
Gould said that the "the government was fighting with one hand behind its back" because Bonds' former personal trainer Greg Anderson refused to testify. Prosecutors allege Anderson supplied Bonds with performance-enhancing drugs, but the judge excluded that evidence from the trial because the trainer wouldn't take the witness stand. Anderson spent the duration of the trial in prison on contempt charges and his lawyer Mark Geragos said he will never testify against Bonds.
"The government will be satisfied with the one felony conviction," said defense attorney William Keane, "especially given the hurdle they had to overcome because of Anderson."
Keane represented former track coach Trevor Graham, who was charged with three counts of lying to BALCO investigators. After a trial in front of Illston, a jury found Graham guilty on one charge but deadlocked on two others. Illston declared a mistrial on those two charges, which prosecutors dropped in July 2008 after Graham agreed not to appeal his conviction.
Keane said he doubted the government would offer Bonds a similar deal -- or that Bonds would agree to such an arrangement.
"There's been too much baggage," Keane said.
Bonds attorney Dennis Riordan is already contesting the obstruction charge. Riordan on Wednesday asked Illston to toss out the guilty verdict on several grounds. The judge will rule on the request later, after both sides submit legal arguments.
At least eight of the 12 jurors said prosecutors failed to show that Bonds knew he was taking steroids and human growth hormone. Prosecutors must also wrestle with jurors who pointed to credibility gaps with a trio of key government witnesses -- Bonds' ex-business partner Steve Hoskins and ex-mistress Kimberly Bell, both of whom came off as somewhat bitter, and Bonds' personal shopper, Kathy Hoskins, who is Steve's sister.
Jury foreman Fred Jacob of Marin City said it would take more evidence than prosecutors presented to convict Bonds on those remaining charges.
"This cost the citizens a lot of money to bring him to court," Jacob said. "They're going to have to even do more homework than they already did."
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
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Columbus 10
EV LA 11
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Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
Rickey Henderson is my favorite athelete of all time. By far. Most underrated offensive player in MLB history. He and KGJ are best non-juice offensive players of my generation.
gotta agree with juggs here. Replay sucks. NFL still cant get calls right...and it takes forever.
replay would eliminate manager arguments. that would be a travesty
keep it as is. add a 5th, 6th, or 7th ump in need be. just please no replay
he's always hurt. the twins suck anyway. the central divisions in both leagues need to be eliminated. go back to 2 divisions in each league and eliminate interleague play. the central teams are a bye come playoff time.
Go Phillies & Rockies!
but he's in the HOF and even if he wasn't a user, I think you'll agree that some users will slip in...and, in my mind, that's not fair to the ones who will be forever excluded. hell, just note it on their plaques -PED user, whatever.
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
look at his stats from 1981. they didn't have juice back then. then 1990. no balco yet.
Rickey Henderson...Ken Griffey. Two best non-juicers of my generation (I'm 33)
don't get me wrong, though. He was a special player in any circumstance.
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
I loved watching Bobby Cox give an umpire a piece of his mind (and some spit and some dirt)
such BS
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St. Paul 14, Denver 14
I got some beachfront property in New Mexico...
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