Well let me see, yes I am a Jew, I grew up going to intensive Jewish day schools and summer camps my entire life where I had a dual curriculum studying a full load of Jewish courses in addition to all the secular courses. My family is religious and I've gone to synagogue every week on Friday night and Saturday morning my whole life. My father is a university professor in Jewish studies (as is his sister), and my mother runs a Jewish non-profit, and their entire circle of friends are Jewish many of them leading academics in Jewish fields, who would come over for Sabbath meals and spend hours discussing Jewish subjects. So yes, I feel very qualified in saying that I know more about Judaism and Jewish history then anyone else here, because quite frankly I know more about Judaism and Jewish history than most Jews.
As for Israel, yeah, I think the fact that I've spent truly significant amounts of time actually living in Israel, that my cousin was a supreme court justice and attorney general in Israel, and actually knew personally and has told me about many of the major Israeli historical figures, that I have friends and family who have served or who are serving in the IDF, that I've spent time in the West Bank and actually met with and spoken to at length Israeli-Arabs and Palestinians who actually live here, and that I devote a great deal of my time reading widely about Israel, and that I make a strong effort to read not just those sources that re-enforce my preexisting opinions, yeah, I think that is a fairly strong basis on which to say that I know more about Israel than anyone else here.
do you use any of your influences to raise awareness or campaign against Israel's illegal occupation of the Palestinians or the illegal settlements? i ask this because quite often you will make a comment that you agree with some of the things i say.
if i had a supreme court justice and attorney general as a cousin, or a father who was a professor at a university or friends in the IDF, i would be wanting to ensure that my voice was being heard and using their positions to make sure it was.
And virtually every word you contribute to the conversation is unadulterated Palestinian propaganda, gleaned from a handful of radical leftists way out beyond the furthest fringe of rational opinion, supported by a partial (at best) and twisted recounting of history that bears very little resemblance to "fact."
Such as the following? But then in your topsy turvy world I suppose the U.N are also radical leftists way out beyond the furthest fringe of rational opinion, as are Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, B'Tselem, and Richard Goldstone, and the whole of the international community - excluding the U.S and Israel.
Vote on Peaceful Settlement of Palestine Question
November 26, 2008, the United Nations General Assembly, as it does every year, voted on a resolution to end the Israel Palestine conflict. The GA/ 10791 (documents A/63/L.35; A/63/L.36) called for a two state settlement on the 1967 borders, East Jerusalem for the Palestinian State (west for Israel), and a “just” resolution to the refugee problem
The draft resolution on the peaceful settlement of the question of Palestine (document A/63/L.35) was adopted by a recorded vote of 164 in favour to 7 against, with 3 abstentions, as follows:
In favour: Afghanistan, Albania, Algeria, Andorra, Angola, Antigua and Barbuda, Argentina, Armenia, Austria, Azerbaijan, Bahamas, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Barbados, Belarus, Belgium, Benin, Bhutan, Bolivia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Botswana, Brazil, Brunei Darussalam, Bulgaria, Burundi, Cambodia, Cape Verde, Central African Republic, Chile, China, Colombia, Comoros, Congo, Costa Rica, Côte d’Ivoire, Croatia, Cuba, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, Denmark, Djibouti, Dominica, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Egypt, El Salvador, Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia, Fiji, Finland, France, Gabon, Gambia, Georgia, Germany, Ghana, Greece, Grenada, Guatemala, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Guyana, Haiti, Honduras, Hungary, Iceland, India, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Ireland, Italy, Jamaica, Japan, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Kenya, Kuwait, Kyrgyzstan, Lao People’s Democratic Republic, Latvia, Lebanon, Lesotho, Liberia, Libya, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malaysia, Maldives, Mali, Malta, Mauritania, Mauritius, Mexico, Monaco, Mongolia, Montenegro, Morocco, Mozambique, Myanmar, Namibia, Nepal, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Nigeria, Norway, Oman, Pakistan, Panama, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Qatar, Republic of Korea, Republic of Moldova, Romania, Russian Federation, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Samoa, San Marino, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Serbia, Singapore, Slovakia, Slovenia, Solomon Islands, Somalia, South Africa, Spain, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Suriname, Swaziland, Sweden, Switzerland, Syria, Tajikistan, Thailand, The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Timor-Leste, Togo, Trinidad and Tobago, Tunisia, Turkey, Uganda, Ukraine, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom, Uruguay, Uzbekistan, Venezuela, Viet Nam, Yemen, Zambia, Zimbabwe.
Against: Australia, Israel, Marshall Islands, Micronesia (Federated States of), Nauru, Palau, United States.
When you weigh in on the situation in Gaza, from what i've seen, its always to paint Israel in a positive light. In a sense what you post is pure propaganda, as there is reality and there is your point of view. That is why you are a target. End support for Israel, I could respect that man.
Israel is a racist zionist militant State, conducting a siege against an impoverished group of people, brutalizing and terrorizing every day. that is reality.
Man, against my better judgment, here goes ...
Commy, I do not unilaterally support Israel. In fact, I have recently taken great pains to explain that I HAVE changed my views on the topic quite a lot since I first started posting here in like, 2001? Sure, you've probably seen me do what you perceive as defending Israel, although my overall perspective is summarized here:
http://forums.pearljam.com/viewtopic.ph ... 1&start=30
You know, I just said this to someone over PMs and I might as well say it publically too ....
I argue about some of the details that a peace plan does or does not need to feature, and apparently this sends the message that Israeli actions like the assault on Gaza in 2006 are excusable. I do not wish to be misunderstood: I do believe that Israel holds most of the cards here. The Palestinians are an oppressed people who deserve basic levels of self-determination. ... They deserve food, shelter, and dignity. They do not deserve to be corralled in Gaza and the West Bank and killed. Any peace plan will require that Israel make some pretty drastic changes, including a withdrawal to proper borders and cessation of settlement expansion. Me arguing that Hamas might need to make some changes as well (e.g., officially recognize Israel) does not mean that Hamas or the Palestinians in general are responsible for what is going on: The argument is largely a pragmatic one, based on knowledge about how people compromise. Because people have trouble seeing this point, I am going to let it go and just acknowledge that the Palestinians are not ultimately at fault here. There may be things they can do to ease the peace process, but they did not choose to be oppressed. There was a time when I naively felt that it really all was about terrorism, and that position is simple and incorrect.
That's still how I feel (and no, I am not suggesting that you need to remember or read all my posts). However, I have no qualms about pointing out changes in Israeli behavior that I view as positive, and yes ... Israel could have turned Gaza into a cauldron again when that Thai worker was killed, as they did in 2006, and they did not. This is a good thing, and saying so does not make me a propagandist. You are too free and loose with that term. A lot of the stuff you agree with fits the definition as well.
i honestly don't get you.
you say all of that, and i agree with a lot of what you are saying (not all), but you never agree with or support any of my posts where i am mentioning things that disturb me about the whole situation. you are continually jumping in and defending yosis views. that is why you are perceived as defending Israel.
i have always tried to be fair. if i agree with yosi i say so, (it doesn't happen very often but it has happened). and i most definitely do not say one thing and practice another, which to me, looks like what you are doing here.
i never lose sight of what i'm fighting for, it's always there for me. it's not about being the loudest or the smartest or the wittiest on the message board. i'm not here to make friends or jump in and gang up on people. it's those beautiful, ordinary Palestians that are the victims of Israel's ongoing illegal, brutal, inhuman, cruel and systematic destruction that i fight for. just ordinary people like you and i.
it's pretty obvious that i care more about them than you or yosi. i get that some people don't care enough about the situation and are passionate about different things. i don't see it as always a bad thing, because there are plenty of other people suffering in all walks of life. for me though, this is the issue that is closest to my heart. i've already mentioned the reasons why.
anyone who "pretends'' to be interested by debating in these threads, and then turns a blind eye to what is happening, is just fooling themselves and has blood on their hands too.
Well, if you'd like me to pipe up more and acknowledge my agreement with your points, sure, no problem. Just the other day I did just that, when you mentioned how much the suffering of Palestinian kids bothers you. I probably do err on the side of arguing more than agreeing, which in all honesty seems to be the overall trend here. Anyhow, I am rather curious about what you disagree with here. THAT sounds contrary in the same way you are accusing me of being! Seriously, what did I just say that was so problematic? Its almost like people cannot break into your and Byrnzie's anti-Israel version of the Circle of Friends, if there is even one measly whiff of trying to see Israel's side, such that it is. Not that this is my goal. I've told you before that I like and respect you, but I don't get why you seem to be concerned about my motives. I do agree with much of what you say and I will point that out as needed.
Well let me see, yes I am a Jew, I grew up going to intensive Jewish day schools and summer camps my entire life where I had a dual curriculum studying a full load of Jewish courses in addition to all the secular courses. My family is religious and I've gone to synagogue every week on Friday night and Saturday morning my whole life. My father is a university professor in Jewish studies (as is his sister), and my mother runs a Jewish non-profit, and their entire circle of friends are Jewish many of them leading academics in Jewish fields, who would come over for Sabbath meals and spend hours discussing Jewish subjects. So yes, I feel very qualified in saying that I know more about Judaism and Jewish history then anyone else here, because quite frankly I know more about Judaism and Jewish history than most Jews.
As for Israel, yeah, I think the fact that I've spent truly significant amounts of time actually living in Israel, that my cousin was a supreme court justice and attorney general in Israel, and actually knew personally and has told me about many of the major Israeli historical figures, that I have friends and family who have served or who are serving in the IDF, that I've spent time in the West Bank and actually met with and spoken to at length Israeli-Arabs and Palestinians who actually live here, and that I devote a great deal of my time reading widely about Israel, and that I make a strong effort to read not just those sources that re-enforce my preexisting opinions, yeah, I think that is a fairly strong basis on which to say that I know more about Israel than anyone else here.
do you use any of your influences to raise awareness or campaign against Israel's illegal occupation of the Palestinians or the illegal settlements? i ask this because quite often you will make a comment that you agree with some of the things i say.
if i had a supreme court justice and attorney general as a cousin, or a father who was a professor at a university or friends in the IDF, i would be wanting to ensure that my voice was being heard and using their positions to make sure it was.
My cousin (former supreme court justice) is a part of the Israeli left-wing. He is a man of supreme moral principle who has in the past staked his career on upholding the law and protecting the rights of Palestinians, including those of captured terrorists known to have personally murdered Israeli civilians. So no, I don't use my influence with him because he doesn't need any convincing by me about how bad the occupation is.
My cousins in the IDF are both in elite special forces units and there is no way in hell that I am going to be filling their heads with politics. They are literally laying their lives on the line for their country. I've known them all their lives, and I trust that they have their moral wits about them and won't be killing anyone that they don't have to kill (and hopefully they won't have to kill anyone). What is important to me is that they stay alive, which in this case will depend on them remaining focused and trusting in their commanders. I will not be distracting them in any way with politics. In any case they know all about the politics, which are unavoidable in this country, and they both have siblings who have been very involved in Israeli-Palestinian dialogue and peace initiatives. So again, no, I will not be using my influence with them.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
To take a step back and to try to put a frame on our disagreements for a second. I think we all agree about where we'd like things to get to. Everyone would like to see a peace accord that would create a viable Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza, and, obviously, end the occupation. Our disagreements seem to be, essentially, over who is at fault for the fact that we haven't gotten there yet. Many of you seem to feel that Israel is the only guilty party, while Reborn (I hope that you don't mind my including you here) and I feel that both sides are to blame. At the end of the day what we are arguing about is either history (which is kind of dumb cause there isn't anything that can be done about history, it's just a blame game), or the exact details of a final accord (which is clearly less important than that an accord be reached, and anyways the details will clearly be worked out between the parties once there is a will on both sides to make peace). The shame of this is that in reality we all want the same thing, but we scream and yell at each other because, in my opinion, many of the people here insist on discussing this issue in purely black and white terms, which creates a dynamic wherein one is either in complete agreement or else one is some combination of racist, imperialist, heartless, murder-supporting bastard.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
To take a step back and to try to put a frame on our disagreements for a second. I think we all agree about where we'd like things to get to. Everyone would like to see a peace accord that would create a viable Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza, and, obviously, end the occupation. Our disagreements seem to be, essentially, over who is at fault for the fact that we haven't gotten there yet. Many of you seem to feel that Israel is the only guilty party, while Reborn (I hope that you don't mind my including you here) and I feel that both sides are to blame. At the end of the day what we are arguing about is either history (which is kind of dumb cause there isn't anything that can be done about history, it's just a blame game), or the exact details of a final accord (which is clearly less important than that an accord be reached, and anyways the details will clearly be worked out between the parties once there is a will on both sides to make peace). The shame of this is that in reality we all want the same thing, but we scream and yell at each other because, in my opinion, many of the people here insist on discussing this issue in purely black and white terms, which creates a dynamic wherein one is either in complete agreement or else one is some combination of racist, imperialist, heartless, murder-supporting bastard.
It's simply a case of sticking to the facts, as opposed to simply throwing around personal opinions. For example, international law is perfectly unambiguous. We could do worse than to focus our attention on it and see how it applies to what both the Israelis and Palestinians are entitled to.
To take a step back and to try to put a frame on our disagreements for a second. I think we all agree about where we'd like things to get to. Everyone would like to see a peace accord that would create a viable Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza, and, obviously, end the occupation. Our disagreements seem to be, essentially, over who is at fault for the fact that we haven't gotten there yet. Many of you seem to feel that Israel is the only guilty party, while Reborn (I hope that you don't mind my including you here) and I feel that both sides are to blame. At the end of the day what we are arguing about is either history (which is kind of dumb cause there isn't anything that can be done about history, it's just a blame game), or the exact details of a final accord (which is clearly less important than that an accord be reached, and anyways the details will clearly be worked out between the parties once there is a will on both sides to make peace). The shame of this is that in reality we all want the same thing, but we scream and yell at each other because, in my opinion, many of the people here insist on discussing this issue in purely black and white terms, which creates a dynamic wherein one is either in complete agreement or else one is some combination of racist, imperialist, heartless, murder-supporting bastard.
Pretty much, although apparently I am not allowed to agree with you. You and I may differ in terms of how much blame we attribute to the Israeli side (or we may not), but I am in complete 100% agreement with your views of discussing the issue in black-and-white terms. This is why the arguments continue, and why things periodically flare up into personal attacks.
BornagainFixer, you can agree with whoever the fuck you want. Trust me when I say "we already k ew your position." it's just funny how when yosi isn't around for like a day or two, you seem to have slightly different attitude towards the situation. You seem to blame Israel a little more. But once yosi is around, your views go back. You have this way of talking and you think we can't see through it, but we do. Atleast yosi has his OWN thoughts whereas you either agree with this or that thread. Hence why I "was" calling you Joe the plummer.
Byrnzie, we don't agree on the facts. You say I give my opinion unsubstantiated by fact, while I say that you give other people's opinions unsubstantiated by fact.
As for international law, to speak crudely for a second, I don't give a damn. I firmly disagree with the idea that a tyranny of the majority is just, and quite frankly I see no reason to respect international law. It is not a legal system that carries with it enforcements, so there is no need to respect it as one respects the law of the land, because not to do so carries practical consequences. And I do not think that one can make a case that international law must be respected for the sake of order, because again, the world is a jungle, and the only nations bound by international law are those that choose to bind themselves. So what is left is the idea that "international law" should be respected because it carries moral weight. But that is in essence the same as saying that if everybody thinks something then it must be morally right. Given the utter immorality and hypocrisy of most of the world's nations I find this argument totally unconvincing. You say that the UN says such and such and therefore Israel is in violation of international law and is criminal and immoral. I say that the UN is a ridiculous organization that presumes to speak as the moral voice of humanity while counting as members some of the most immoral regimes on the face of the planet. When Russia, China, Saudi Arabia, Iran and a bunch of other moral luminaries get together to condemn Israel through UN resolution I simply say that those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. So please, stop with this pathetic moral bullying. If you want to say that something is immoral simply do so. Don't give me this garbage about UN resolutions. I expect Israel to act morally because it is the right thing to do, not because China says so. Perhaps one day once we're all dead and buried there will be some sort of universal human government and international law will actually mean something. For now just give it a rest.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Byrnzie, we don't agree on the facts. You say I give my opinion unsubstantiated by fact, while I say that you give other people's opinions unsubstantiated by fact.
As for international law, to speak crudely for a second, I don't give a damn. I firmly disagree with the idea that a tyranny of the majority is just, and quite frankly I see no reason to respect international law. It is not a legal system that carries with it enforcements, so there is no need to respect it as one respects the law of the land, because not to do so carries practical consequences. And I do not think that one can make a case that international law must be respected for the sake of order, because again, the world is a jungle, and the only nations bound by international law are those that choose to bind themselves.
Israel is a signatory to the U.N charter, and is therefore bound by it's rules. If you choose to behave as a pariah state then that's your business, but it's certainly nothing to be proud of.
The draft resolution on the peaceful settlement of the question of Palestine (document A/63/L.35) was adopted by a recorded vote of 164 in favour to 7 against, with 3 abstentions, as follows:
In favour: Afghanistan, Albania, Algeria, Andorra, Angola, Antigua and Barbuda, Argentina, Armenia, Austria, Azerbaijan, Bahamas, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Barbados, Belarus, Belgium, Benin, Bhutan, Bolivia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Botswana, Brazil, Brunei Darussalam, Bulgaria, Burundi, Cambodia, Cape Verde, Central African Republic, Chile, China, Colombia, Comoros, Congo, Costa Rica, Côte d’Ivoire, Croatia, Cuba, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, Denmark, Djibouti, Dominica, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Egypt, El Salvador, Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia, Fiji, Finland, France, Gabon, Gambia, Georgia, Germany, Ghana, Greece, Grenada, Guatemala, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Guyana, Haiti, Honduras, Hungary, Iceland, India, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Ireland, Italy, Jamaica, Japan, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Kenya, Kuwait, Kyrgyzstan, Lao People’s Democratic Republic, Latvia, Lebanon, Lesotho, Liberia, Libya, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malaysia, Maldives, Mali, Malta, Mauritania, Mauritius, Mexico, Monaco, Mongolia, Montenegro, Morocco, Mozambique, Myanmar, Namibia, Nepal, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Nigeria, Norway, Oman, Pakistan, Panama, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Qatar, Republic of Korea, Republic of Moldova, Romania, Russian Federation, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Samoa, San Marino, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Serbia, Singapore, Slovakia, Slovenia, Solomon Islands, Somalia, South Africa, Spain, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Suriname, Swaziland, Sweden, Switzerland, Syria, Tajikistan, Thailand, The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Timor-Leste, Togo, Trinidad and Tobago, Tunisia, Turkey, Uganda, Ukraine, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom, Uruguay, Uzbekistan, Venezuela, Viet Nam, Yemen, Zambia, Zimbabwe.
Against: Australia, Israel, Marshall Islands, Micronesia (Federated States of), Nauru, Palau, United States.
Don't be a dipshit, badbrains. I said the exact same things while yosi was gone that I say now. Look whose talking ... I've yet to see you add anything new beyond unnecessary personal attacks.
Oh, and let's be clear on one thing ... You call me Joe the Plummer because you're a bigoted asshole, it has nothing to do with my position on this topic.
Don't be a dipshit, badbrains. I said the exact same things while yosi was gone that I say now. Look whose talking ... I've yet to see you add anything new beyond unnecessary personal attacks.
You done barking little puppy??? Is it my turn to piss on you in this pissing match Joe? Me a bigoted asshole? If it comes to me being a bigoted asshole to YOU, ok I'll buy it. First off Joe, I don't like you, never have never will. I am a bigoted assholes to people like you. But here's the thing Joe, I don't deny it nor pretend to be buddies with some dumb shit like you. Me a dipshit to? Sure why not, I won't deny that either..so what's next puppy Joe??? Put your tail between your legs and go hide in your cage you dumb ass sheep...bark bark bark, ruff ruff ruff....
Its almost like people cannot break into your and Byrnzie's anti-Israel version of the Circle of Friends, if there is even one measly whiff of trying to see Israel's side, such that it is.
To take a step back and to try to put a frame on our disagreements for a second. I think we all agree about where we'd like things to get to. Everyone would like to see a peace accord that would create a viable Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza, and, obviously, end the occupation. Our disagreements seem to be, essentially, over who is at fault for the fact that we haven't gotten there yet. Many of you seem to feel that Israel is the only guilty party, while Reborn (I hope that you don't mind my including you here) and I feel that both sides are to blame. At the end of the day what we are arguing about is either history (which is kind of dumb cause there isn't anything that can be done about history, it's just a blame game), or the exact details of a final accord (which is clearly less important than that an accord be reached, and anyways the details will clearly be worked out between the parties once there is a will on both sides to make peace). The shame of this is that in reality we all want the same thing, but we scream and yell at each other because, in my opinion, many of the people here insist on discussing this issue in purely black and white terms, which creates a dynamic wherein one is either in complete agreement or else one is some combination of racist, imperialist, heartless, murder-supporting bastard.
i'll make it really, really clear for both of you.
you say to me i'm not forthcoming "if there is even one measly whiff of trying to see Israel's side, such that it is".
there is nothing that either of you, or anyone else could say to me, that will ever in my eyes, justify the ongoing illegal and brutal occupation that the Palestinians are subjected to every single day.
there is nothing either of you can say to me, that will convince me that Israel has the right to imprison an entire population of people.
there is no damn justification at all. you can bring up every fact, every link, every god damn conversation in the history of the situation, but there is NOTHING that the Palestinians have ever done that justifies this.
not a damn thing.
i'm passed talking about anything you bring up that takes focus away from what it really happening to the Palestinian people. i don't care about pages and pages of fighting over insignificant, irrelevant crap that is doing nothing at all to ease the suffering of those people.
Don't be a dipshit, badbrains. I said the exact same things while yosi was gone that I say now. Look whose talking ... I've yet to see you add anything new beyond unnecessary personal attacks.
You done barking little puppy??? Is it my turn to piss on you in this pissing match Joe? Me a bigoted asshole? If it comes to me being a bigoted asshole to YOU, ok I'll buy it. First off Joe, I don't like you, never have never will. I am a bigoted assholes to people like you. But here's the thing Joe, I don't deny it nor pretend to be buddies with some dumb shit like you. Me a dipshit to? Sure why not, I won't deny that either..so what's next puppy Joe??? Put your tail between your legs and go hide in your cage you dumb ass sheep...bark bark bark, ruff ruff ruff....
I don't like you either, although Lord knows I've tried to see some merit. At the end of the day, you're either really immature and you'll grow out of it, or you're retarded and you won't. Either way, leave me the fuck alone. This is like the fourth time you've singled me out for your bullshit, and its not amusing. It probably makes more sense that you stop responding to my posts, and I'll stop responding to yours. Go find a political cartoon to be mad about or something, asshat. And I am well past the point where I am going to be polite, because that hasn't worked the last four times you got on my case. Fuck off, and do it now.
i'm passed talking about anything you bring up that takes focus away from what it really happening to the Palestinian people. i don't care about pages and pages of fighting over insignificant, irrelevant crap that is doing nothing at all to ease the suffering of those people.
Well, as promised, I agree with you. It is pages and pages of junk that does pale in comparison to the real suffering taking place.
i'm passed talking about anything you bring up that takes focus away from what it really happening to the Palestinian people. i don't care about pages and pages of fighting over insignificant, irrelevant crap that is doing nothing at all to ease the suffering of those people.
The suffering which could be eased so easily if only Israel would comply with the UN resolutions trying to help out the Palestinians.
But, when one knows where Israel stands, as so nicely illustrated by the erudit and learned Yosi who seems to speak for Israel, one understands this suffering will go on for a long, long time.
As for international law, to speak crudely for a second, I don't give a damn. .... and quite frankly I see no reason to respect international law. It is not a legal system that carries with it enforcements, so there is no need to respect it.......
Puts into perspective what the US has done to a country which has not complied with UN resolution, ie Iraq and the consequences of non compliance and what the US is doing to another country (ie Israel) that doesn't comply. One gets bombed and razed, another gets a teeny weeny slap on the wrist but full financial and military (via armement) support. Disgusting.
Concrete and REAL actions need to be taken to help Palestinians, not just those for show. Putting aside all the other, bigger picture 'musts' in order to comply with UN resolutions, people need to be fed, cared for (medically), factories need to be able to work providing materials, food, etc. Homes, hospitals, schools need to be rebuilt, etc. For this, goods need to get through, bombs need to stop falling. Israel needs to do the right thing.
I think Badbrains should invade Rebornfixers house, build a patio (settlements) all around it and claim the right of self-determination if he doesn't like it.
If Rebornfixer gets desperate and resorts to violence then Badbrains can rain a cloud of baking powder (white phosphorous) down upon him and his family.
If Rebornfixer takes the matter to the local authorities (The U.N) Badbrains can simply claim that his ancestors lived there 2000 years ago and only stayed abroad for so long because the food was better.
Triumphant, I have never tried to justify the occupation, and if you believe that I have than you have misunderstood me. I simply don't subscribe to the radically simplistic notions that this conflict is entirely Israel's fault, and that this conflict is easily solved. I think the settlements were a mistake from the outset and I would never try to justify them. That said, ending the occupation is not a simple matter. I understand that many of you believe that it is, but to be frank, if you think that you are living in a fantasy world.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
I think Badbrains should invade Rebornfixers house, build a patio (settlements) all around it and claim the right of self-determination if he doesn't like it.
If Rebornfixer gets desperate and resorts to violence then Badbrains can rain a cloud of baking powder (white phosphorous) down upon him and his family.
If Rebornfixer takes the matter to the local authorities (The U.N) Badbrains can simply claim that his ancestors lived there 2000 years ago and only stayed abroad for so long because the food was better.
It's nice to see this little puppy Joe hasn't stopped barking. You're such a dumbass, Hamas on me? You? A clown like you can never get Hamas on anybody. Mayb humus but NOT Hamas. You, little puppy, have no teeth to bite. Nor do you have any brains or soul to live by. I'll happily "fuck off" but making fun of your lame ass is much more fun. Byrnzie was making fun if you and your dumbass thinks he has your back. Now if you can excuse me for now, I have to clean up the mess bornagaindumbshit made since he went all HUMUS on me yesterday......dude, little puppy Joe, I shit bigger than you. Ya I probably have a big ass to shit out of but it beats your big mouth that says NOTHING but sure as hell barks a lot...so come on little puppy, you can bark now......ruff ruff little puppy, don't forget to clean your shit...oh and here's me going to fuck off cuz Joe the plummer said to..... :roll:
It's nice to see this little puppy Joe hasn't stopped barking. You're such a dumbass, Hamas on me? You? A clown like you can never get Hamas on anybody. Mayb humus but NOT Hamas. You, little puppy, have no teeth to bite. Nor do you have any brains or soul to live by. I'll happily "fuck off" but making fun of your lame ass is much more fun. Byrnzie was making fun if you and your dumbass thinks he has your back. Now if you can excuse me for now, I have to clean up the mess bornagaindumbshit made since he went all HUMUS on me yesterday......dude, little puppy Joe, I shit bigger than you. Ya I probably have a big ass to shit out of but it beats your big mouth that says NOTHING but sure as hell barks a lot...so come on little puppy, you can bark now......ruff ruff little puppy, don't forget to clean your shit...oh and here's me going to fuck off cuz Joe the plummer said to..... :roll:
I just ran this through Google translator: The dialect came back as "douchebag".
It's nice to see this little puppy Joe hasn't stopped barking. You're such a dumbass, Hamas on me? You? A clown like you can never get Hamas on anybody. Mayb humus but NOT Hamas. You, little puppy, have no teeth to bite. Nor do you have any brains or soul to live by. I'll happily "fuck off" but making fun of your lame ass is much more fun. Byrnzie was making fun if you and your dumbass thinks he has your back. Now if you can excuse me for now, I have to clean up the mess bornagaindumbshit made since he went all HUMUS on me yesterday......dude, little puppy Joe, I shit bigger than you. Ya I probably have a big ass to shit out of but it beats your big mouth that says NOTHING but sure as hell barks a lot...so come on little puppy, you can bark now......ruff ruff little puppy, don't forget to clean your shit...oh and here's me going to fuck off cuz Joe the plummer said to..... :roll:
I just ran this through Google translator: The dialect came back as "douchebag".
Blah blah blah, or is it bark bark bark....dude, calm down bro, I'm making you some more hummus so you can go hummus on me again....do you prefer it spicey or regular Joe? I forgot how you like it...
Blah blah blah, or is it bark bark bark....dude, calm down bro, I'm making you some more hummus so you can go hummus on me again....do you prefer it spicey or regular Joe? I forgot how you like it...
Nope, that's not going to work. I've tried bantering with you in a good-natured way numerous times before, and you have yet to revise your behavior. So, as stated before ... You don't like me, I don't like you. End of story.
If you care to explain WHY you've got such a problem with me, go for it. But no, it has nothing to do with my arguments on here. My position has been pretty consistent over the last five or six months. Yes, I like and respect yosi. I also happen to like and respect a few people on here who have the complete opposite viewpoint as he does. If this makes me wishy-washy, so be it. I am not a black-and-white thinker. There is merit in multiple perspectives, sometimes.
So you're saying that my hummus isn't good enough for you?? Do you prefer baba ganoush instead?? Potato knish?? Tell me and I'll make it for you. Us Muslims have great hospitality... You can even bring a date if you have one.... :roll:
So you're saying that my hummus isn't good enough for you?? Do you prefer baba ganoush instead?? Potato knish?? Tell me and I'll make it for you. Us Muslims have great hospitality... You can even bring a date if you have one.... :roll:
So you're saying that my hummus isn't good enough for you?? Do you prefer baba ganoush instead?? Potato knish?? Tell me and I'll make it for you. Us Muslims have great hospitality... You can even bring a date if you have one.... :roll:
Ooo, I was waiting for the infamous eye roll.
Since you love MY eyes so much, :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Don't tell me gf how much U love MY eyes cuz she'll get real pissed and fuck u up. She's a very jealous woman. changed it to green in honor of the kush I just had
Comments
if i had a supreme court justice and attorney general as a cousin, or a father who was a professor at a university or friends in the IDF, i would be wanting to ensure that my voice was being heard and using their positions to make sure it was.
Such as the following? But then in your topsy turvy world I suppose the U.N are also radical leftists way out beyond the furthest fringe of rational opinion, as are Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, B'Tselem, and Richard Goldstone, and the whole of the international community - excluding the U.S and Israel.
Vote on Peaceful Settlement of Palestine Question
November 26, 2008, the United Nations General Assembly, as it does every year, voted on a resolution to end the Israel Palestine conflict. The GA/ 10791 (documents A/63/L.35; A/63/L.36) called for a two state settlement on the 1967 borders, East Jerusalem for the Palestinian State (west for Israel), and a “just” resolution to the refugee problem
The draft resolution on the peaceful settlement of the question of Palestine (document A/63/L.35) was adopted by a recorded vote of 164 in favour to 7 against, with 3 abstentions, as follows:
In favour: Afghanistan, Albania, Algeria, Andorra, Angola, Antigua and Barbuda, Argentina, Armenia, Austria, Azerbaijan, Bahamas, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Barbados, Belarus, Belgium, Benin, Bhutan, Bolivia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Botswana, Brazil, Brunei Darussalam, Bulgaria, Burundi, Cambodia, Cape Verde, Central African Republic, Chile, China, Colombia, Comoros, Congo, Costa Rica, Côte d’Ivoire, Croatia, Cuba, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, Denmark, Djibouti, Dominica, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Egypt, El Salvador, Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia, Fiji, Finland, France, Gabon, Gambia, Georgia, Germany, Ghana, Greece, Grenada, Guatemala, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Guyana, Haiti, Honduras, Hungary, Iceland, India, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Ireland, Italy, Jamaica, Japan, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Kenya, Kuwait, Kyrgyzstan, Lao People’s Democratic Republic, Latvia, Lebanon, Lesotho, Liberia, Libya, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malaysia, Maldives, Mali, Malta, Mauritania, Mauritius, Mexico, Monaco, Mongolia, Montenegro, Morocco, Mozambique, Myanmar, Namibia, Nepal, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Nigeria, Norway, Oman, Pakistan, Panama, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Qatar, Republic of Korea, Republic of Moldova, Romania, Russian Federation, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Samoa, San Marino, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Serbia, Singapore, Slovakia, Slovenia, Solomon Islands, Somalia, South Africa, Spain, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Suriname, Swaziland, Sweden, Switzerland, Syria, Tajikistan, Thailand, The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Timor-Leste, Togo, Trinidad and Tobago, Tunisia, Turkey, Uganda, Ukraine, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom, Uruguay, Uzbekistan, Venezuela, Viet Nam, Yemen, Zambia, Zimbabwe.
Against: Australia, Israel, Marshall Islands, Micronesia (Federated States of), Nauru, Palau, United States.
you say all of that, and i agree with a lot of what you are saying (not all), but you never agree with or support any of my posts where i am mentioning things that disturb me about the whole situation. you are continually jumping in and defending yosis views. that is why you are perceived as defending Israel.
i have always tried to be fair. if i agree with yosi i say so, (it doesn't happen very often but it has happened). and i most definitely do not say one thing and practice another, which to me, looks like what you are doing here.
i never lose sight of what i'm fighting for, it's always there for me. it's not about being the loudest or the smartest or the wittiest on the message board. i'm not here to make friends or jump in and gang up on people. it's those beautiful, ordinary Palestians that are the victims of Israel's ongoing illegal, brutal, inhuman, cruel and systematic destruction that i fight for. just ordinary people like you and i.
it's pretty obvious that i care more about them than you or yosi. i get that some people don't care enough about the situation and are passionate about different things. i don't see it as always a bad thing, because there are plenty of other people suffering in all walks of life. for me though, this is the issue that is closest to my heart. i've already mentioned the reasons why.
anyone who "pretends'' to be interested by debating in these threads, and then turns a blind eye to what is happening, is just fooling themselves and has blood on their hands too.
My cousin (former supreme court justice) is a part of the Israeli left-wing. He is a man of supreme moral principle who has in the past staked his career on upholding the law and protecting the rights of Palestinians, including those of captured terrorists known to have personally murdered Israeli civilians. So no, I don't use my influence with him because he doesn't need any convincing by me about how bad the occupation is.
My cousins in the IDF are both in elite special forces units and there is no way in hell that I am going to be filling their heads with politics. They are literally laying their lives on the line for their country. I've known them all their lives, and I trust that they have their moral wits about them and won't be killing anyone that they don't have to kill (and hopefully they won't have to kill anyone). What is important to me is that they stay alive, which in this case will depend on them remaining focused and trusting in their commanders. I will not be distracting them in any way with politics. In any case they know all about the politics, which are unavoidable in this country, and they both have siblings who have been very involved in Israeli-Palestinian dialogue and peace initiatives. So again, no, I will not be using my influence with them.
It's simply a case of sticking to the facts, as opposed to simply throwing around personal opinions. For example, international law is perfectly unambiguous. We could do worse than to focus our attention on it and see how it applies to what both the Israelis and Palestinians are entitled to.
Pretty much, although apparently I am not allowed to agree with you.
As for international law, to speak crudely for a second, I don't give a damn. I firmly disagree with the idea that a tyranny of the majority is just, and quite frankly I see no reason to respect international law. It is not a legal system that carries with it enforcements, so there is no need to respect it as one respects the law of the land, because not to do so carries practical consequences. And I do not think that one can make a case that international law must be respected for the sake of order, because again, the world is a jungle, and the only nations bound by international law are those that choose to bind themselves. So what is left is the idea that "international law" should be respected because it carries moral weight. But that is in essence the same as saying that if everybody thinks something then it must be morally right. Given the utter immorality and hypocrisy of most of the world's nations I find this argument totally unconvincing. You say that the UN says such and such and therefore Israel is in violation of international law and is criminal and immoral. I say that the UN is a ridiculous organization that presumes to speak as the moral voice of humanity while counting as members some of the most immoral regimes on the face of the planet. When Russia, China, Saudi Arabia, Iran and a bunch of other moral luminaries get together to condemn Israel through UN resolution I simply say that those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. So please, stop with this pathetic moral bullying. If you want to say that something is immoral simply do so. Don't give me this garbage about UN resolutions. I expect Israel to act morally because it is the right thing to do, not because China says so. Perhaps one day once we're all dead and buried there will be some sort of universal human government and international law will actually mean something. For now just give it a rest.
Israel is a signatory to the U.N charter, and is therefore bound by it's rules. If you choose to behave as a pariah state then that's your business, but it's certainly nothing to be proud of.
The draft resolution on the peaceful settlement of the question of Palestine (document A/63/L.35) was adopted by a recorded vote of 164 in favour to 7 against, with 3 abstentions, as follows:
In favour: Afghanistan, Albania, Algeria, Andorra, Angola, Antigua and Barbuda, Argentina, Armenia, Austria, Azerbaijan, Bahamas, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Barbados, Belarus, Belgium, Benin, Bhutan, Bolivia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Botswana, Brazil, Brunei Darussalam, Bulgaria, Burundi, Cambodia, Cape Verde, Central African Republic, Chile, China, Colombia, Comoros, Congo, Costa Rica, Côte d’Ivoire, Croatia, Cuba, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, Denmark, Djibouti, Dominica, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Egypt, El Salvador, Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia, Fiji, Finland, France, Gabon, Gambia, Georgia, Germany, Ghana, Greece, Grenada, Guatemala, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Guyana, Haiti, Honduras, Hungary, Iceland, India, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Ireland, Italy, Jamaica, Japan, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Kenya, Kuwait, Kyrgyzstan, Lao People’s Democratic Republic, Latvia, Lebanon, Lesotho, Liberia, Libya, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malaysia, Maldives, Mali, Malta, Mauritania, Mauritius, Mexico, Monaco, Mongolia, Montenegro, Morocco, Mozambique, Myanmar, Namibia, Nepal, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Nigeria, Norway, Oman, Pakistan, Panama, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Qatar, Republic of Korea, Republic of Moldova, Romania, Russian Federation, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Samoa, San Marino, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Serbia, Singapore, Slovakia, Slovenia, Solomon Islands, Somalia, South Africa, Spain, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Suriname, Swaziland, Sweden, Switzerland, Syria, Tajikistan, Thailand, The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Timor-Leste, Togo, Trinidad and Tobago, Tunisia, Turkey, Uganda, Ukraine, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom, Uruguay, Uzbekistan, Venezuela, Viet Nam, Yemen, Zambia, Zimbabwe.
Against: Australia, Israel, Marshall Islands, Micronesia (Federated States of), Nauru, Palau, United States.
You done barking little puppy??? Is it my turn to piss on you in this pissing match Joe? Me a bigoted asshole? If it comes to me being a bigoted asshole to YOU, ok I'll buy it. First off Joe, I don't like you, never have never will. I am a bigoted assholes to people like you. But here's the thing Joe, I don't deny it nor pretend to be buddies with some dumb shit like you. Me a dipshit to? Sure why not, I won't deny that either..so what's next puppy Joe??? Put your tail between your legs and go hide in your cage you dumb ass sheep...bark bark bark, ruff ruff ruff....
you say to me i'm not forthcoming "if there is even one measly whiff of trying to see Israel's side, such that it is".
there is nothing that either of you, or anyone else could say to me, that will ever in my eyes, justify the ongoing illegal and brutal occupation that the Palestinians are subjected to every single day.
there is nothing either of you can say to me, that will convince me that Israel has the right to imprison an entire population of people.
there is no damn justification at all. you can bring up every fact, every link, every god damn conversation in the history of the situation, but there is NOTHING that the Palestinians have ever done that justifies this.
not a damn thing.
i'm passed talking about anything you bring up that takes focus away from what it really happening to the Palestinian people. i don't care about pages and pages of fighting over insignificant, irrelevant crap that is doing nothing at all to ease the suffering of those people.
I don't like you either, although Lord knows I've tried to see some merit. At the end of the day, you're either really immature and you'll grow out of it, or you're retarded and you won't. Either way, leave me the fuck alone. This is like the fourth time you've singled me out for your bullshit, and its not amusing. It probably makes more sense that you stop responding to my posts, and I'll stop responding to yours. Go find a political cartoon to be mad about or something, asshat. And I am well past the point where I am going to be polite, because that hasn't worked the last four times you got on my case. Fuck off, and do it now.
Well, as promised, I agree with you. It is pages and pages of junk that does pale in comparison to the real suffering taking place.
The suffering which could be eased so easily if only Israel would comply with the UN resolutions trying to help out the Palestinians.
But, when one knows where Israel stands, as so nicely illustrated by the erudit and learned Yosi who seems to speak for Israel, one understands this suffering will go on for a long, long time.
Puts into perspective what the US has done to a country which has not complied with UN resolution, ie Iraq and the consequences of non compliance and what the US is doing to another country (ie Israel) that doesn't comply. One gets bombed and razed, another gets a teeny weeny slap on the wrist but full financial and military (via armement) support. Disgusting.
Concrete and REAL actions need to be taken to help Palestinians, not just those for show. Putting aside all the other, bigger picture 'musts' in order to comply with UN resolutions, people need to be fed, cared for (medically), factories need to be able to work providing materials, food, etc. Homes, hospitals, schools need to be rebuilt, etc. For this, goods need to get through, bombs need to stop falling. Israel needs to do the right thing.
If Rebornfixer gets desperate and resorts to violence then Badbrains can rain a cloud of baking powder (white phosphorous) down upon him and his family.
If Rebornfixer takes the matter to the local authorities (The U.N) Badbrains can simply claim that his ancestors lived there 2000 years ago and only stayed abroad for so long because the food was better.
I did get all Hamas on him yesterday, didn't I?
I just ran this through Google translator: The dialect came back as "douchebag".
Blah blah blah, or is it bark bark bark....dude, calm down bro, I'm making you some more hummus so you can go hummus on me again....do you prefer it spicey or regular Joe? I forgot how you like it...
Nope, that's not going to work. I've tried bantering with you in a good-natured way numerous times before, and you have yet to revise your behavior. So, as stated before ... You don't like me, I don't like you. End of story.
If you care to explain WHY you've got such a problem with me, go for it. But no, it has nothing to do with my arguments on here. My position has been pretty consistent over the last five or six months. Yes, I like and respect yosi. I also happen to like and respect a few people on here who have the complete opposite viewpoint as he does. If this makes me wishy-washy, so be it. I am not a black-and-white thinker. There is merit in multiple perspectives, sometimes.
Ooo, I was waiting for the infamous eye roll.
Since you love MY eyes so much, :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Don't tell me gf how much U love MY eyes cuz she'll get real pissed and fuck u up. She's a very jealous woman.