MAKE MARIJUANA LEGAL

Drowned Out

FiveB247x wrote:

This does not happen in any other industry..so why would we assume it would be so with this?

But what is a comparable industry? What other self-perpetuating product can be manufactured, in a closet, in large enough quantities to supply yourself, and your family and friends?

I realize my scenario is a pipe dream ….the only way the average non-smoker, after decades of anti-drug programming, would go for legalization is to be enticed by dollar signs (taxes)…

JOEJOEJOE is right that we’d have to hugely crack down on illegit suppliers…This does nothing to address one of my main problems with prohibition: strict regulation and control of a PLANT….

Still, if it’s going to be legalized and taxed, we better allow growing for personal use (similar to non-commercial home-brewing/distilling in the alcohol industry) – if that’s the case, sign me up. But if you’re just going to allow the government to dictate the market 100%?...no thanks.

acrossssSsssshittt

lettinggo wrote:

Not just for medical use, although that would be a start for the 36 states that don't. Anyone over the age of 21 can buy gallons of booze. Pot is FAR less harmful to the body and the brain than alcohol. I know that fun is often poked at "stoners". And while moderation is always the key, having been around both, I prefer the company of stoners to that of drunks.
. . .I'm just saying

i hear you ... and screw moderation too... i've spent my teen years and thereafter, stoned on hash, and not to "escape" from shit either ... rather I've always felt, and delved deep into everythin more due to it... and ultimately for the better...

Drowned Out

acrossOceans wrote:

lettinggo wrote:

Not just for medical use, although that would be a start for the 36 states that don't. Anyone over the age of 21 can buy gallons of booze. Pot is FAR less harmful to the body and the brain than alcohol. I know that fun is often poked at "stoners". And while moderation is always the key, having been around both, I prefer the company of stoners to that of drunks.
. . .I'm just saying

i hear you ... and screw moderation too... i've spent my teen years and thereafter, stoned on hash, and not to "escape" from shit either ... rather I've always felt, and delved deep into everythin more due to it... and ultimately for the better...

ALL THINGS IN MODERATION.....INCLUDING MODERATION

acrossssSsssshittt

Drowned Out wrote:

acrossOceans wrote:

lettinggo wrote:

Not just for medical use, although that would be a start for the 36 states that don't. Anyone over the age of 21 can buy gallons of booze. Pot is FAR less harmful to the body and the brain than alcohol. I know that fun is often poked at "stoners". And while moderation is always the key, having been around both, I prefer the company of stoners to that of drunks.
. . .I'm just saying

i hear you ... and screw moderation too... i've spent my teen years and thereafter, stoned on hash, and not to "escape" from shit either ... rather I've always felt, and delved deep into everythin more due to it... and ultimately for the better...

ALL THINGS IN MODERATION.....INCLUDING MODERATION

well that's a nice twisted statement which i interpret to mean screw moderaion:) i guess livin life in the extreme just makes more sense to me... else you end up not really feeling or experiencin fuck all... whether love, sorrow, joy, pain, madness, and everythin else... hell, that;s just me

FiveB247x

Also, albeit marijuana may not currently have some terrible record of effects like other drugs or vices, but I'm sure if we legalized it in some fashion it would be abused by our society to the point it would have serious repercussions.

Drowned Out wrote:

I realize my scenario is a pipe dream ….the only way the average non-smoker, after decades of anti-drug programming, would go for legalization is to be enticed by dollar signs (taxes)…

JOEJOEJOE is right that we’d have to hugely crack down on illegit suppliers…This does nothing to address one of my main problems with prohibition: strict regulation and control of a PLANT….

Still, if it’s going to be legalized and taxed, we better allow growing for personal use (similar to non-commercial home-brewing/distilling in the alcohol industry) – if that’s the case, sign me up. But if you’re just going to allow the government to dictate the market 100%?...no thanks.

KDH12

FiveB247x wrote:

Also, albeit marijuana may not currently have some terrible record of effects like other drugs or vices, but I'm sure if we legalized it in some fashion it would be abused by our society to the point it would have serious repercussions.

Drowned Out wrote:

I realize my scenario is a pipe dream ….the only way the average non-smoker, after decades of anti-drug programming, would go for legalization is to be enticed by dollar signs (taxes)…

JOEJOEJOE is right that we’d have to hugely crack down on illegit suppliers…This does nothing to address one of my main problems with prohibition: strict regulation and control of a PLANT….

Still, if it’s going to be legalized and taxed, we better allow growing for personal use (similar to non-commercial home-brewing/distilling in the alcohol industry) – if that’s the case, sign me up. But if you’re just going to allow the government to dictate the market 100%?...no thanks.

you don't think it is already abused in our society?

when it comes to drug use there are two classifications 'abuse' or 'dependence'

and a report just came out this week that more older adults are abusing pot more now then ever

FiveB247x

I meant more in terms of negative effects and results. Other drugs have more crime, proven health issues, od's, drunk driving and all the other results... marijuana doesn't have these kind of effects or atleast anywhere near the same level or degree. Of course "abuse" or "dependence" are negative, but you could probably say the same of prescription meds as well.

KDH12 wrote:

you don't think it is already abused in our society?

when it comes to drug use there are two classifications 'abuse' or 'dependence'

and a report just came out this week that more older adults are abusing pot more now then ever

KDH12

FiveB247x wrote:

I meant more in terms of negative effects and results. Other drugs have more crime, proven health issues, od's, drunk driving and all the other results... marijuana doesn't have these kind of effects or atleast anywhere near the same level or degree. Of course "abuse" or "dependence" are negative, but you could probably say the same of prescription meds as well.

you are confusing because this and you say this

FiveB247x wrote:

but I'm sure if we legalized it in some fashion it would be abused by our society to the point it would have serious repercussions.

Kel Varnsen

JOEJOEJOE wrote:

There is no way to fully collect taxes on the dealers' revenue, but if legalized, more legit vendors will pop-up, and hopefully, users will buy from the legit vendors. To help ensure proper tax collection, the govt would have to pass a law and make the penalty for being an "unlicensed vendor" very high. Same principal as the liquor industry.

Execpt any new legit growers would have start up costs that the illegal growers would have already paid for. So if someone was buying from a legit source they would have to pay extra both to cover the taxes and to cover the overhead and start up costs. The idea of having penalties for unlicensed vendors would just mean all those law enforcement people would stop with the "war on drugs" and start the "war on drug sellers who cheat on their taxes".

FiveB247x

Yes I do think that, but comparatively, the serious repercussions of marijuana are not anywhere near those of other drugs or even alcohol. And just to be clear, I do not think we should legalize any drugs, but if we did, what would the effects be? Possible long term health issues, probably somewhere along the lines of minor ones smoking cigarettes cause right? Or perhaps it becomes widespread and accepted for use, and we have a generation of lazy, infertile, stoners? But other than that, what would the real effects be compared to those of hard drugs or even cigarettes and alcohol? That's the point I was trying to convey. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

KDH12 wrote:

FiveB247x wrote:

I meant more in terms of negative effects and results. Other drugs have more crime, proven health issues, od's, drunk driving and all the other results... marijuana doesn't have these kind of effects or atleast anywhere near the same level or degree. Of course "abuse" or "dependence" are negative, but you could probably say the same of prescription meds as well.

you are confusing because this and you say this

FiveB247x wrote:

but I'm sure if we legalized it in some fashion it would be abused by our society to the point it would have serious repercussions.

brandon10

Kel Varnsen wrote:

JOEJOEJOE wrote:

There is no way to fully collect taxes on the dealers' revenue, but if legalized, more legit vendors will pop-up, and hopefully, users will buy from the legit vendors. To help ensure proper tax collection, the govt would have to pass a law and make the penalty for being an "unlicensed vendor" very high. Same principal as the liquor industry.

Execpt any new legit growers would have start up costs that the illegal growers would have already paid for. So if someone was buying from a legit source they would have to pay extra both to cover the taxes and to cover the overhead and start up costs. The idea of having penalties for unlicensed vendors would just mean all those law enforcement people would stop with the "war on drugs" and start the "war on drug sellers who cheat on their taxes".

Kel, I don't think you get it. If you could buy your weed at the corner store or pharmacy would you continue to buy from your shady dealer? There would just need to be fines or criminality in growing your own for taxation to work.

It would be easy to tax. And if the government ran the industry there would be some crazy good weed. I don't even smoke weed anymore and I find the whole idea kind of exciting.

Kel Varnsen

brandon10 wrote:

Kel Varnsen wrote:

JOEJOEJOE wrote:

There is no way to fully collect taxes on the dealers' revenue, but if legalized, more legit vendors will pop-up, and hopefully, users will buy from the legit vendors. To help ensure proper tax collection, the govt would have to pass a law and make the penalty for being an "unlicensed vendor" very high. Same principal as the liquor industry.

Execpt any new legit growers would have start up costs that the illegal growers would have already paid for. So if someone was buying from a legit source they would have to pay extra both to cover the taxes and to cover the overhead and start up costs. The idea of having penalties for unlicensed vendors would just mean all those law enforcement people would stop with the "war on drugs" and start the "war on drug sellers who cheat on their taxes".

Kel, I don't think you get it. If you could buy your weed at the corner store or pharmacy would you continue to buy from your shady dealer? There would just need to be fines or criminality in growing your own for taxation to work.

But if the shady dealer can sell for way cheaper because of no taxes and minimal overhead and already has an operation and connections set up, what motivation is there for his customers to go to a corner store? In Ontario tax free illegal cigarettes are a huge market because they are easy to get and way cheaper from getting them from a store. And the whole illegal cigarettes black market has way less of a built in infrastructure compared to what grow ops and pot dealers have now.

FiveB247x

I see your point but at the same time, the cost of marijuana will decrease if it went through legality.. the cost of cigarettes has risen mostly because of tax.. not because it is hard to get. So even at worst case scenario, the legalized marijuana would be at the same cost through legal channels compared to the scenario your describing.

Kel Varnsen wrote:

But if the shady dealer can sell for way cheaper because of no taxes and minimal overhead and already has an operation and connections set up, what motivation is there for his customers to go to a corner store? In Ontario tax free illegal cigarettes are a huge market because they are easy to get and way cheaper from getting them from a store. And the whole illegal cigarettes black market has way less of a built in infrastructure compared to what grow ops and pot dealers have now.

Drowned Out

KDH12 wrote:

you don't think it is already abused in our society?
when it comes to drug use there are two classifications 'abuse' or 'dependence'
and a report just came out this week that more older adults are abusing pot more now then ever

Does it matter?
Whether a user is abusing a drug, especially in the sense you mention it - as half of a black and white definition of drug use, is a subjective opinion. "Dependency" has some science to it at least...but guess what? No physical dependency issues with weed (and before you say it: mental dependency can apply to anything).....
So unless you're willing to apply this to all intoxicating substances, and back it up by supporting prohibition of them...and until we can become this utopian society where anti-intoxication morality has won the evolutionary battle, this approach to the debate is pretty much irrelevant.

Drowned Out

I'm confused too...
First, you say this:

FiveB247x wrote:

Yes I do think that, but comparatively, the serious repercussions of marijuana are not anywhere near those of other drugs or even alcohol.

You then follow with this:

FiveB247x wrote:

And just to be clear, I do not think we should legalize any drugs,

So do you support the prohibition of alcohol? Because if you're worried about repercussions, you should be worried about same with alcohol use, right?
If you don't support legalization after making your admissions, what IS your stance?
do we need stricter enforcement of the war on drugs?

how can you objectively say you don't think we should legalize any drugs, the follow it with this question:

FiveB247x wrote:

but if we did, what would the effects be?

Is this where your argument changes from my health to your morality?

FiveB247x wrote:

Possible long term health issues, probably somewhere along the lines of minor ones smoking cigarettes cause right? Or perhaps it becomes widespread and accepted for use,

Perhaps it becomes widespread and accepted...perhaps it loses it's rebellious appeal and with all the funding going to education and treatment ( :roll: ) , use goes down....either way, is enforcing your stance with criminalization and imprisonment on such a large portion of the population your idea of justice?

FiveB247x wrote:

and we have a generation of lazy, infertile, stoners? But other than that, what would the real effects be compared to those of hard drugs or even cigarettes and alcohol? That's the point I was trying to convey. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

Your post asks all of these questions in an admission of ignorance... yet this whole post plays devil's advocate in support of your admittedly ignorant opinions.....while using inflammatory language (again) and promoting stereotypes...

clearly trolling...? :roll:

Drowned Out

Kel Varnsen wrote:

brandon10 wrote:

Kel, I don't think you get it. If you could buy your weed at the corner store or pharmacy would you continue to buy from your shady dealer? There would just need to be fines or criminality in growing your own for taxation to work.

But if the shady dealer can sell for way cheaper because of no taxes and minimal overhead and already has an operation and connections set up, what motivation is there for his customers to go to a corner store? In Ontario tax free illegal cigarettes are a huge market because they are easy to get and way cheaper from getting them from a store. And the whole illegal cigarettes black market has way less of a built in infrastructure compared to what grow ops and pot dealers have now.

If weed was legalized in a regulated and commercialized sense, with extra harsh enforcement targeting illegal grows, the current expert pot growers would likely be working for Budweiser or Pfizer or Phillip Morris or whichever fuckin corporate industry was the one that successfully lobbied for the laws to change, within six months. The fact that they have a couple lights and stolen hydro would give them zero advantage once it became a legit industry....pot would be mass-produced and probably filled with toxic chemicals much like tobacco is, in no time.
So again...I could only get behind the legal/tax scenario with a huge amount of personal discretion applied...

I think taking the drug debate from a 'war', to a healthcare issue, only to turn it all over to the corporate interests that supported the war, would be like one step forward, two back...

FiveB247x

Sorry if you don't like my comments, but I responded to the issue at hand with the actual notion of if we have society as it is now... but merely added the legalization of marijuana. Perhaps in fantasy land you can dissect my comments in some other manner.. but here, in the US, we have legal markets and industries which encompass the tobacco and alcohol. My comments are based on what we actually do and how we monitor and react as a result. I never said I was for the legalization of drugs, but did ask and comment many ways in which if it did occur, what it may result or look like. Good day sir.


clearly trolling...? :roll:[/quote]

Drowned Out

FiveB247x wrote:

Sorry if you don't like my comments, but I responded to the issue at hand with the actual notion of if we have society as it is now... but merely added the legalization of marijuana.

The issues you raise are based on the premise that pot use would increase dramatically if it were legalized. While there is conflicting data on this assumption, none of it shows any kind of significant increase....

You could have easily made your points without the 'lazy, infertile stoners' comment. Trolling, plain and simple.

FiveB247x wrote:

Perhaps in fantasy land you can dissect my comments in some other manner.. but here, in the US, we have legal markets and industries which encompass the tobacco and alcohol. My comments are based on what we actually do and how we monitor and react as a result. I never said I was for the legalization of drugs, but did ask and comment many ways in which if it did occur, what it may result or look like. Good day sir.

huh? I honestly have no idea what you're trying to say in the bolded part.

ok, maybe I overwhelmed you with all the questions...can you answer just the two then:
If you don't support legalization after making your admissions, what IS your stance?
do we need stricter enforcement of the war on drugs?



and feel free to dissect me all you want if I start making contradictory, nonsensical comments.

FiveB247x

Please do provide legitimate research data proving this fact.. I'm curious to see it and what it is actually based upon.

Also, your response is merely attacking my comments as if you think I'm against the legalization of this drug. I honestly do not care, but if I had a preference, I would not legalize marijuana or any other current illegal drugs. I think at best we can adjust the criminal aspects of these things though - something I mentioned previously. Not sure why you're saying I'm trolling or similar.

Drowned Out wrote:

The issues you raise are based on the premise that pot use would increase dramatically if it were legalized. While there is conflicting data on this assumption, none of it shows any kind of significant increase....

Drowned Out

FiveB247x wrote:

Please do provide legitimate research data proving this fact.. I'm curious to see it and what it is actually based upon.....

I'm talking about studies I've read based on what's been done in the Netherlands. It's too late for me to start looking for them now, but I know that for years, the pro-legalization movement cited the 'Dutch experiment' as proof that use does not increase due to reforms. But...I also read that they clamped down on the coffee shops in Amsterdam in the past few years, partially because new studies had conflicted with that. I honestly don't know who funded which study, nor the local political influences behind any of the findings, but from what I remember, it was not a very significant increase, even if it was legit. I can look for them tomorrow if you are too lazy

FiveB247x wrote:

Also, your response is merely attacking my comments as if you think I'm against the legalization of this drug. I honestly do not care, but if I had a preference, I would not legalize marijuana or any other current illegal drugs. I think at best we can adjust the criminal aspects of these things though - something I mentioned previously..

holy...re-read what you just typed....do you see what I mean about contradictory statements?
Can you clarify what you mean by adjusting the criminal aspects? You did pay lip service to the notion earlier in the thread, but didn't give any detail other than admitting a need for it.
What adjustments? You either maintain the status quo, with harsher or less severe penalties...or you decrim or legalize. Do you have another option? I 'attack' your opinion because I disagree with it, and feel confident in my reasons for said disagreements. You haven't said anything to change my mind, yet...

FiveB247x wrote:

Not sure why you're saying I'm trolling or similar.....

You could have easily made your points without the 'lazy, infertile stoners' comment. Trolling, plain and simple.