MAKE MARIJUANA LEGAL

Kel Varnsen

Drowned Out wrote:

FiveB247x wrote:

What people need to figure out is that these drugs will never be legal... if anything we need to adjust the justice system to properly correct the penalties and long term criminalization/treatment programs of those who get caught. And yes, as goose points out, it turns into a socio-economic project to sweep the poor minorities to jail.

A defeatist attitude only empowers those employing bad policy.
I dont think there should be ANY penalities for drug use.
Tax and regulate weed via growing permits only...while I feel that concerns about driving and working impaired are grossly exaggerated, I strongly feel that they need to develop more practical testing for mj impairment. If these are major concerns, a test that detects use in the past several weeks (essentially testing for ANY use, not impairment) is not fair to anyone.
I support legalization of everything else too...
Tax and regulate every other drug similarly to alcohol, with ALL proceeds (and budget savings realized by ending the war on drugs) going directly to education/harm reduction, and healthcare programs.

Except like I mentioned in a previous post, how do you get the sellers to pay their taxes? I mean if someone today has a grow op set up with the lights and all the equipment and they are making money dealing. If marijuana was legalized tomorrow how exactly would you enforce the law so that that the dealers pay their taxes? I mean this is something that is already pretty much done in secret and its not like dealers would be writing out receipts. It would be like me selling my couch to a friend and then the government thinking I would claim the money I made as income.

Drowned Out

Kel Varnsen wrote:

Except like I mentioned in a previous post, how do you get the sellers to pay their taxes? I mean if someone today has a grow op set up with the lights and all the equipment and they are making money dealing. If marijuana was legalized tomorrow how exactly would you enforce the law so that that the dealers pay their taxes? I mean this is something that is already pretty much done in secret and its not like dealers would be writing out receipts. It would be like me selling my couch to a friend and then the government thinking I would claim the money I made as income.

In my scenario, I'd hope there would be no sellers,and if there were, they would not be taxed.
If the government can't keep their hands out of the cookie jar...Sell grow licenses, and if the public thinks it's necessary, implement penalities for growing without one.
It's a plant...it can be grown anywhere...the supply could be big enough that there would be no market to make a profit.
"manufactured" drugs like coke, heroin, E, and meth should be regulated for purity and user safety.

ryanevolution

The debate always becomes centered on recreational use and growing it for smoking. The issue is NOT that at all. It was made illegal because of its industrial uses and that it was and is the biggest thret to major industries such as oil (and every product it makes), cotton and all textiles ("america's fabric" yeah right), and paper.


Also STOP calling it the racist fictitious wordsound "marijuana". It is cannabis or hemp.

ryanevolution

...And how could I forget, also a huge threat to the pharma industry.

FiveB247x

Also, a very valid point. So much money and industry goes into the drug business.. whether it's for growers, sellers, transporters, buyers or on the legal side police, government and similar. The whole - just legalize it and tax it, is a pipe dream with no real thought out plan behind it in logistics. Not saying that's really the most rational or reasonable point for it's legalization or not, but it certainly is a fair one to point out.

Kel Varnsen wrote:

Except like I mentioned in a previous post, how do you get the sellers to pay their taxes? I mean if someone today has a grow op set up with the lights and all the equipment and they are making money dealing. If marijuana was legalized tomorrow how exactly would you enforce the law so that that the dealers pay their taxes? I mean this is something that is already pretty much done in secret and its not like dealers would be writing out receipts. It would be like me selling my couch to a friend and then the government thinking I would claim the money I made as income.

mysticweed

ryanevolution wrote:

The debate always becomes centered on recreational use and growing it for smoking. The issue is NOT that at all. It was made illegal because of its industrial uses and that it was and is the biggest thret to major industries such as oil (and every product it makes), cotton and all textiles ("america's fabric" yeah right), and paper.


Also STOP calling it the racist fictitious wordsound "marijuana". It is cannabis or hemp.

Racist?? I think not. And it's Cannabis Sativa. Hemp is too broad. I prefer to just call it weed, which is also a broad term, but people always know what I mean.
Peace brother.

Drowned Out

ryanevolution wrote:

The debate always becomes centered on recreational use and growing it for smoking. The issue is NOT that at all. It was made illegal because of its industrial uses and that it was and is the biggest thret to major industries such as oil (and every product it makes), cotton and all textiles ("america's fabric" yeah right), and paper.


Also STOP calling it the racist fictitious wordsound "marijuana". It is cannabis or hemp.

The debate is centred on rec use because people's misunderstandings about it are what KEEP it illegal (misunderstanding or conditioning, take your pick)...for all intents and purposes, hemp and weed have become two completely separate issues.
(Hemp illegality, while not as detrimental on a personal/human level, is actually the bigger travesty IMO....)

How is the word marijuana racist? I know it was a Spanish word used to tie it to American xenophobia at the time...but just cause it was used to tie it to a race, doesn't mean that it's meaning is racist? It's a commonly used name for it, nothing more or less.....or am I missing something?

FiveB247x

But why would people who currently sell or use drugs, and already disregard the law and in some terms their own well-being and safety, all of a sudden want to work through the government or some official industry? What is the benefit to them in this scenario?

Drowned Out wrote:

In my scenario, I'd hope there would be no sellers,and if there were, they would not be taxed.
If the government can't keep their hands out of the cookie jar...Sell grow licenses, and if the public thinks it's necessary, implement penalities for growing without one.
It's a plant...it can be grown anywhere...the supply could be big enough that there would be no market to make a profit.
"manufactured" drugs like coke, heroin, E, and meth should be regulated for purity and user safety.

florence151

Decriminalized in Massachusetts. $100- ticket for under 1 ounce. No criminal record, no jail, no tying up the courts with the time and expense of prosecuting this minor infraction.

Speaking of Massachusetts, our new Senator Brown broke ranks with the Republican party and voted for the recent jobs bill. Hmmm. Have to say I'm listening closer to him now. Will he be someone who can bridge the ideological gap dividing Washington and judge bills on their merit?

Kel Varnsen

FiveB247x wrote:

But why would people who currently sell or use drugs, and already disregard the law and in some terms their own well-being and safety, all of a sudden want to work through the government or some official industry? What is the benefit to them in this scenario?

That's what I wonder. Especailly in a legalized scenario there would be increased competition, which would mean lower profit margins, which would mean if you are a grower/seller and you can make some extra cash by not paying taxes on something you are selling in secret why wouldn't you.

mysticweed

florence151 wrote:

Decriminalized in Massachusetts. $100- ticket for under 1 ounce. No criminal record, no jail, no tying up the courts with the time and expense of prosecuting this minor infraction.

Speaking of Massachusetts, our new Senator Brown broke ranks with the Republican party and voted for the recent jobs bill. Hmmm. Have to say I'm listening closer to him now. Will he be someone who can bridge the ideological gap dividing Washington and judge bills on their merit?

Now THAT"'S what I'm talking about! Maybe my subject should have read DECRIMINALIZE MARIJUANA.
Thanks florence151

FiveB247x

Exactly, and the only real benefit of this scenario would be for security or well-being/safety but the people who do these things do not care about this matter, as they wouldn't be in this area if they did.

Kel Varnsen wrote:

That's what I wonder. Especailly in a legalized scenario there would be increased competition, which would mean lower profit margins, which would mean if you are a grower/seller and you can make some extra cash by not paying taxes on something you are selling in secret why wouldn't you.

Kel Varnsen

FiveB247x wrote:

Exactly, and the only real benefit of this scenario would be for security or well-being/safety but the people who do these things do not care about this matter, as they wouldn't be in this area if they did.

Not to mention right now people who are running huge operations are probably already laundering their money, so it is probably already being taxed at least once before it can be clean and used as legitimate money. So for those people legalizing and taxing wouldn't create an additional tax revenue.

JOEJOEJOE

I think they should totally legalize it, but add the same excise taxes as they do for liquor. Making it legal would, in a sense, transfer a huge portion of the profits from the dealers to the state/local taxing authorities (via the taxes).

The prices that dealers charge have a built-in added profit because of the risk involved, so, if legalized, the prices would probably go down, or at worst, stay the same.

Kel Varnsen

JOEJOEJOE wrote:

I think they should totally legalize it, but add the same excise taxes as they do for liquor. Making it legal would, in a sense, transfer a huge portion of the profits from the dealers to the state/local taxing authorities (via the taxes).

Except as has been mentioned the dealers probably wouldn't pay the taxes. It is easy to tax liquor since it is generally produced by large or at least medium sized corporations at fixed sites and sold in legitimate places like liquor stores. Pot can be grown by some guy with some lights in his basement. How do you get him to pay his taxes? And if you are using law enforcement people to chase down tax cheats, it kind of cuts into the whole "save money by not having to enforce the law" concept.

JOEJOEJOE wrote:

The prices that dealers charge have a built-in added profit because of the risk involved, so, if legalized, the prices would probably go down, or at worst, stay the same.

Price would probably go down because supply would probably go up. But if prices are dropping then this is all the more reason why the people selling probably wouldn't pay tax on their sales.

Godfather.

JOEJOEJOE wrote:

I think they should totally legalize it, but add the same excise taxes as they do for liquor. Making it legal would, in a sense, transfer a huge portion of the profits from the dealers to the state/local taxing authorities (via the taxes).

The prices that dealers charge have a built-in added profit because of the risk involved, so, if legalized, the prices would probably go down, or at worst, stay the same.

if it's legalized for medical only then I think the price will jump quite a bit.

Godfather.

Drowned Out

FiveB247x wrote:

But why would people who currently sell or use drugs, and already disregard the law and in some terms their own well-being and safety, all of a sudden want to work through the government or some official industry? What is the benefit to them in this scenario?

Maybe I’m not being clear. I’m talking about letting everyone grow their own. You’d think that most users would either grow their own for free (or the cost of a grow license), or know someone well who was growing themselves….the market would eat itself. No benefit to the big dealers/commercial growers; they’re cut out in this scenario.

Kel Varnsen wrote:

FiveB247x wrote:

Exactly, and the only real benefit of this scenario would be for security or well-being/safety but the people who do these things do not care about this matter, as they wouldn't be in this area if they did.

Not to mention right now people who are running huge operations are probably already laundering their money, so it is probably already being taxed at least once before it can be clean and used as legitimate money. So for those people legalizing and taxing wouldn't create an additional tax revenue.

I would guess that very very little weed money (percentage-wise) is being laundered. It’s not necessary until you’re into multi-million dollar values, and the bulk of the people who operate at that level (outside of shady government and law enforcement), are members of organized crime…organized crime tends to use weed as international trade bait for harder drugs…in other words…if it’s bein laundered, it’s likely being done in tax-sheltered countries, or the hard drug source countries (Afghanistan, Columbia etc)…

florence151 wrote:

Decriminalized in Massachusetts. $100- ticket for under 1 ounce. No criminal record, no jail, no tying up the courts with the time and expense of prosecuting this minor infraction.

Decrim bills are hugely hypocritical…they decrease possession penalties while usually increasing manufacture/distribution penalties. How does that make sense? How do you get your 1 ounce without dealing with someone who’s breaking the law? So you have 28 grams, he has 29…it’s fair for him to go to jail, but not you? This scenario DOES create more competition on the black market.

FiveB247x

This does not happen in any other industry..so why would we assume it would be so with this?

Drowned Out wrote:

Maybe I’m not being clear. I’m talking about letting everyone grow their own. You’d think that most users would either grow their own for free (or the cost of a grow license), or know someone well who was growing themselves….the market would eat itself. No benefit to the big dealers/commercial growers; they’re cut out in this scenario.

JOEJOEJOE

Kel Varnsen wrote:

Drowned Out wrote:

FiveB247x wrote:

What people need to figure out is that these drugs will never be legal... if anything we need to adjust the justice system to properly correct the penalties and long term criminalization/treatment programs of those who get caught. And yes, as goose points out, it turns into a socio-economic project to sweep the poor minorities to jail.

A defeatist attitude only empowers those employing bad policy.
I dont think there should be ANY penalities for drug use.
Tax and regulate weed via growing permits only...while I feel that concerns about driving and working impaired are grossly exaggerated, I strongly feel that they need to develop more practical testing for mj impairment. If these are major concerns, a test that detects use in the past several weeks (essentially testing for ANY use, not impairment) is not fair to anyone.
I support legalization of everything else too...
Tax and regulate every other drug similarly to alcohol, with ALL proceeds (and budget savings realized by ending the war on drugs) going directly to education/harm reduction, and healthcare programs.

Except like I mentioned in a previous post, how do you get the sellers to pay their taxes? I mean if someone today has a grow op set up with the lights and all the equipment and they are making money dealing. If marijuana was legalized tomorrow how exactly would you enforce the law so that that the dealers pay their taxes? I mean this is something that is already pretty much done in secret and its not like dealers would be writing out receipts. It would be like me selling my couch to a friend and then the government thinking I would claim the money I made as income.

There is no way to fully collect taxes on the dealers' revenue, but if legalized, more legit vendors will pop-up, and hopefully, users will buy from the legit vendors. To help ensure proper tax collection, the govt would have to pass a law and make the penalty for being an "unlicensed vendor" very high. Same principal as the liquor industry.

g under p

*LEGALIZE IT* then TAX IT.

Peace