what are your thought's on out-sourcing America

he still stands

It is fairly evident to see the problems with free trade. The basic principles of comparative advantage leading to the conclusion that free trade will be advantageous for ALL are totally incorrect in today's world. Why? Assumption #1 - labor is highly mobile - I can go to country X to work if I see an opportunity in my trade/craft/skill. This is pretty much impossible in most industries. Assumption #2 - capital is immobile. In the service economies this is completely untrue and that is why you get calls from "Slumdog Millionaire" when you telephone a call center.

These assumptions may have been true in the 19th century when David Ricardo drew up all those pretty graphs that prove the theory of comparative advantage, but not today.

There are also these nasty little things called "negative externalities" due to free trade. Pollution would be a good example. The system requires an endlessly increasing amount of production and consumption of finite goods. Not only is it bad for the environment, it is a self-defeating system. It cannot continue forever.

Godfather.

why are Americans unwilling to work for a lower wage ?....simple ! we can't afford to earn the same wage
a illegal day worker is willing to work for,we don't run back across the border where the cost of living is
1/3 what it cost Americans to survive.

all this back and forth reasoning is not the answer, America needs to be self-sufficient again and stop giving
away everything our father's and their father's before them built for us.

Godfather.

he still stands

Godfather. wrote:

why are Americans unwilling to work for a lower wage ?....simple ! we can't afford to earn the same wage
a illegal day worker is willing to work for,we don't run back across the border where the cost of living is
1/3 what it cost Americans to survive.

Cost of living is huge... $4,200 just for my damn property taxes every year. I married into $30k of debt (mostly college tuition) which is another $340 per month... 2 car payments, $150 per month just for electricity... I don't even have TV anymore because for a basic service it was $75 per month. I have a 7-month old and everytime I go grocery shopping it is $200 for a 1.5 weeks of food. Ridiculous.

You have to make $60k in a household just to get by! And my wife is unemployed...

aerial

Godfather. wrote:

why are Americans unwilling to work for a lower wage ?....simple ! we can't afford to earn the same wage
a illegal day worker is willing to work for,we don't run back across the border where the cost of living is
1/3 what it cost Americans to survive.

all this back and forth reasoning is not the answer, America needs to be self-sufficient again and stop giving
away everything our father's and their father's before them built for us.

Godfather.

+1

Kel Varnsen

know1 wrote:

I view people as people. If a company wants to move their manufacturing elsewhere, then those people probably need the jobs worse than the Americans do.

Let's put it this way: If there is 1 job available, why should someone in America get it over someone in China. Are Americans more deserving?

That's sort of what I always thought. I mean yea it sucks that someone in your country loses their job. But why do they think of it as their job that can be stolen and not just a job. I think with more jobs going to more countries it spreads the wealth around more and more people can get by. I mean look at how much money went to Indonesia after the Tsunami. I bet if they had more people working and a more developed economy then they probably wouldn't have needed as much aid from other countries. Giving those people jobs is the first step in building up their economy.

Cosmo

prfctlefts wrote:

Don't blame the foreigners ? Obviously you don't know jack shit about the constuction trade. So a contractor is suppose to lower his prices to compete with abunch of illegals ? For what ? So he can go into more debt and lay off his workers,and then what loose his business ? :roll: Oh I know I know these are jobs that Americans wont do right ?

You have no idea how many contractors have stories like these. And the funny thing is most of the homowners that hire illegals to work for them usually end up regretting it, because a lot of them don't know what the hell they are doing and don't even have ins.

. I have nothing against someone coming here and wanting to make a better life for themselves and their families but get in line and do it the right way.

...
Who... exactly... is HIRING these workers?
General Contractors and sub-contractors... AMERICAN Contractors.
Why?
Because he has to cut cost to get work because the consumer... AMERICAN consumer want their kitchen remodel to be a affordable as possible. Sure, they may regret the shoddy workmanship... but, that's what you get when your top priority is money.
...
And where are the choruses of 'Letting the market decide' supporters? This is exactly what the market does... what the unregulated market does. It screws workers.

know1

he still stands wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

why are Americans unwilling to work for a lower wage ?....simple ! we can't afford to earn the same wage
a illegal day worker is willing to work for,we don't run back across the border where the cost of living is
1/3 what it cost Americans to survive.

Cost of living is huge... $4,200 just for my damn property taxes every year. I married into $30k of debt (mostly college tuition) which is another $340 per month... 2 car payments, $150 per month just for electricity... I don't even have TV anymore because for a basic service it was $75 per month. I have a 7-month old and everytime I go grocery shopping it is $200 for a 1.5 weeks of food. Ridiculous.

You have to make $60k in a household just to get by! And my wife is unemployed...

Not true. Most of the things you mentioned were choices you made - college tuition, car payments, etc. Those are not necessities.

know1

Kel Varnsen wrote:

know1 wrote:

I view people as people. If a company wants to move their manufacturing elsewhere, then those people probably need the jobs worse than the Americans do.

Let's put it this way: If there is 1 job available, why should someone in America get it over someone in China. Are Americans more deserving?

That's sort of what I always thought. I mean yea it sucks that someone in your country loses their job. But why do they think of it as their job that can be stolen and not just a job. I think with more jobs going to more countries it spreads the wealth around more and more people can get by. I mean look at how much money went to Indonesia after the Tsunami. I bet if they had more people working and a more developed economy then they probably wouldn't have needed as much aid from other countries. Giving those people jobs is the first step in building up their economy.

This is exactly what I think.

aerial

Kel Varnsen wrote:

know1 wrote:

I view people as people. If a company wants to move their manufacturing elsewhere, then those people probably need the jobs worse than the Americans do.

Let's put it this way: If there is 1 job available, why should someone in America get it over someone in China. Are Americans more deserving?

That's sort of what I always thought. I mean yea it sucks that someone in your country loses their job. But why do they think of it as their job that can be stolen and not just a job. I think with more jobs going to more countries it spreads the wealth around more and more people can get by. I mean look at how much money went to Indonesia after the Tsunami. I bet if they had more people working and a more developed economy then they probably wouldn't have needed as much aid from other countries. Giving those people jobs is the first step in building up their economy.

Do you have a job?

aerial

know1 wrote:

he still stands wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

why are Americans unwilling to work for a lower wage ?....simple ! we can't afford to earn the same wage
a illegal day worker is willing to work for,we don't run back across the border where the cost of living is
1/3 what it cost Americans to survive.

Cost of living is huge... $4,200 just for my damn property taxes every year. I married into $30k of debt (mostly college tuition) which is another $340 per month... 2 car payments, $150 per month just for electricity... I don't even have TV anymore because for a basic service it was $75 per month. I have a 7-month old and everytime I go grocery shopping it is $200 for a 1.5 weeks of food. Ridiculous.

You have to make $60k in a household just to get by! And my wife is unemployed...

Not true. Most of the things you mentioned were choices you made - college tuition, car payments, etc. Those are not necessities.

Are you kidding? :roll:

flywallyfly

Kel Varnsen wrote:

know1 wrote:

I view people as people. If a company wants to move their manufacturing elsewhere, then those people probably need the jobs worse than the Americans do.

Let's put it this way: If there is 1 job available, why should someone in America get it over someone in China. Are Americans more deserving?

That's sort of what I always thought. I mean yea it sucks that someone in your country loses their job. But why do they think of it as their job that can be stolen and not just a job. I think with more jobs going to more countries it spreads the wealth around more and more people can get by. I mean look at how much money went to Indonesia after the Tsunami. I bet if they had more people working and a more developed economy then they probably wouldn't have needed as much aid from other countries. Giving those people jobs is the first step in building up their economy.

But it doesnt spread the wealth around. The workers get paid shit in these third world countries and the fatcat CEO's here in the U.S. get wealthier by paying them so little. These job losses to overseas workers has absolutely no altruistic meaning behind them.

he still stands

know1 wrote:

he still stands wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

why are Americans unwilling to work for a lower wage ?....simple ! we can't afford to earn the same wage
a illegal day worker is willing to work for,we don't run back across the border where the cost of living is
1/3 what it cost Americans to survive.

Cost of living is huge... $4,200 just for my damn property taxes every year. I married into $30k of debt (mostly college tuition) which is another $340 per month... 2 car payments, $150 per month just for electricity... I don't even have TV anymore because for a basic service it was $75 per month. I have a 7-month old and everytime I go grocery shopping it is $200 for a 1.5 weeks of food. Ridiculous.

You have to make $60k in a household just to get by! And my wife is unemployed...

Not true. Most of the things you mentioned were choices you made - college tuition, car payments, etc. Those are not necessities.

you live somewhere? you pay property taxes... either directly or indirectly (if you rent you pay it indirectly)

I was told from day 1 that I should go to college by teachers, guidance counselors, parents, etc. Weren't you? I make $10k more per year with the degree so it pays off... but it is hard to pay off when my wife got laid off and found out she was pregnant in the same week.

Over 90% of households own a car... unless you live in NYC or Chicago or LA it is required to get around. I could not work in this city without a car. Which means I have to pay $150 for insurance per month and $200 for gas.

Electricity is a choice? Not by my standards...

Food... a choice? I haven't bought name-brand stuff in years... a baby is expensive to feed.

I don't even have a fucking TV...

Cosmo

Godfather. wrote:

why are Americans unwilling to work for a lower wage ?....simple ! we can't afford to earn the same wage
a illegal day worker is willing to work for,we don't run back across the border where the cost of living is
1/3 what it cost Americans to survive.

all this back and forth reasoning is not the answer, America needs to be self-sufficient again and stop giving
away everything our father's and their father's before them built for us.

Godfather.

...
I hate to break this to you... but, employment is not a right.
If the skills you possess are equal to that of an uneducated former farmhand from Mexico can do... you need to compete for those jobs, with those workers, for those wages. You're a free market capitalist, right? Isn't that just the market in action... captialism to the core?
...
It is easy to pick on the immigrant worker... they are the weakest link. and it's getting okay to blame the greedy business owners who hire these workers to keep costs down. But, no one ever seems to blame themselves... for BUYING these services and taking advantage of low cost to do business.

Kel Varnsen

flywallyfly wrote:

Kel Varnsen wrote:

know1 wrote:

I view people as people. If a company wants to move their manufacturing elsewhere, then those people probably need the jobs worse than the Americans do.

Let's put it this way: If there is 1 job available, why should someone in America get it over someone in China. Are Americans more deserving?

That's sort of what I always thought. I mean yea it sucks that someone in your country loses their job. But why do they think of it as their job that can be stolen and not just a job. I think with more jobs going to more countries it spreads the wealth around more and more people can get by. I mean look at how much money went to Indonesia after the Tsunami. I bet if they had more people working and a more developed economy then they probably wouldn't have needed as much aid from other countries. Giving those people jobs is the first step in building up their economy.

But it doesnt spread the wealth around. The workers get paid shit in these third world countries and the fatcat CEO's here in the U.S. get wealthier by paying them so little. These job losses to overseas workers has absolutely no altruistic meaning behind them.

They may get paid shit compared to you or me, but when your cost of living is next to nothing a tiny wage actually means something. Not to mention you have to start somewhere. It is not like as soon as the industrial revolution happened that workers were making $20 an hour in North America and Europe.

know1

Kel Varnsen wrote:

flywallyfly wrote:

But it doesnt spread the wealth around. The workers get paid shit in these third world countries and the fatcat CEO's here in the U.S. get wealthier by paying them so little. These job losses to overseas workers has absolutely no altruistic meaning behind them.

They may get paid shit compared to you or me, but when your cost of living is next to nothing a tiny wage actually means something. Not to mention you have to start somewhere. It is not like as soon as the industrial revolution happened that workers were making $20 an hour in North America and Europe.

Exactly. And once those workers get the industry into their country and make the country's economy depend on it, then they can organize, form unions, etc., and work to improve conditions. But if you're sitting there with nothing and scraping by with no prospects and a company comes in and wants to offer you a wage for work....and you take that opportunity, then it likely means that you are better off than you were before. That's progress for those people.

Cosmo

After the Gold Rush in California... when the mines dried up... the miners had to make a choice. Either keep being a gold miner and go to where gold mining is done... or get a different type of job.
Same goes here. If you want to work in a factory that makes plastic hairbrushes... you either need to go to China, where plastic hairbrushes are made... or go into a new line of work.
If you want the jobs that are going to illegals... uneducated, unskilled workers... you have to compete with them for those jobs... at the going market rate.

know1

Cosmo wrote:

After the Gold Rush in California... when the mines dried up... the miners had to make a choice. Either keep being a gold miner and go to where gold mining is done... or get a different type of job.
Same goes here. If you want to work in a factory that makes plastic hairbrushes... you either need to go to China, where plastic hairbrushes are made... or go into a new line of work.
If you want the jobs that are going to illegals... uneducated, unskilled workers... you have to compete with them for those jobs... at the going market rate.

Amen. I've been saying things like this for years, but it's difficult to find anyone who will agree.

know1

he still stands wrote:

you live somewhere? you pay property taxes... either directly or indirectly (if you rent you pay it indirectly)

I was told from day 1 that I should go to college by teachers, guidance counselors, parents, etc. Weren't you? I make $10k more per year with the degree so it pays off... but it is hard to pay off when my wife got laid off and found out she was pregnant in the same week.

Over 90% of households own a car... unless you live in NYC or Chicago or LA it is required to get around. I could not work in this city without a car. Which means I have to pay $150 for insurance per month and $200 for gas.

Electricity is a choice? Not by my standards...

Food... a choice? I haven't bought name-brand stuff in years... a baby is expensive to feed.

I don't even have a fucking TV...

I went to college and did have some small loans. Before I bought a new car or did anything else, I paid them off. If I went back, I would find a way to do it without the loans. Just because people tell you to go to college doesn't mean you should borrow to do it.

I own 2 cars. They are both paid off and were used vehicles when I bought this one. I am currently saving up a car payment every month so I can pay cash for the next one.

I didn't say electricity or food were a choice, although the types of food you buy are choices.

aerial

know1 wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

After the Gold Rush in California... when the mines dried up... the miners had to make a choice. Either keep being a gold miner and go to where gold mining is done... or get a different type of job.
Same goes here. If you want to work in a factory that makes plastic hairbrushes... you either need to go to China, where plastic hairbrushes are made... or go into a new line of work.
If you want the jobs that are going to illegals... uneducated, unskilled workers... you have to compete with them for those jobs... at the going market rate.

Amen. I've been saying things like this for years, but it's difficult to find anyone who will agree.

I think your missing the point of the post......The gold mines were not sent out of the country....and it is not just the unskilled and uneducated losing their jobs to illegals or foreign countries.........

Godfather.

Cosmo wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

why are Americans unwilling to work for a lower wage ?....simple ! we can't afford to earn the same wage
a illegal day worker is willing to work for,we don't run back across the border where the cost of living is
1/3 what it cost Americans to survive.

all this back and forth reasoning is not the answer, America needs to be self-sufficient again and stop giving
away everything our father's and their father's before them built for us.

Godfather.

...
I hate to break this to you... but, employment is not a right.
If the skills you possess are equal to that of an uneducated former farmhand from Mexico can do... you need to compete for those jobs, with those workers, for those wages. You're a free market capitalist, right? Isn't that just the market in action... captialism to the core?
...
It is easy to pick on the immigrant worker... they are the weakest link. and it's getting okay to blame the greedy business owners who hire these workers to keep costs down. But, no one ever seems to blame themselves... for BUYING these services and taking advantage of low cost to do business.

this has taken quite a jump from out-sourcing.
when something like the economy is broken it can not be fixed with a few bucks and a promise from a politician,it needs to be over hauled top to bottom and illegal worker's are not the whole problem but they
are on the list to fix what is wrong with this economy....just one of many thing's.
and BTW you don't need to break anything to me I've been around the block a few times but thanks anyway

Godfather.
in a