Hmmm ... Yes and no. I see your point, cleansed is probably not a great choice of words, although it is a favorite word of the anti-Israel crowd and so maybe you shouldn't be surprised to see it turned around. Hamas DOES represent a prevailing point of view, or at least part of their ideology does. My issue with groups like this is that they do not pitch themselves as "freedom fighters" per se, although that's certainly a part of it. Rather, they overtly adopt a "wipe out Israel" stance, essentially adopting the same "genocidal" stance that many accuse the Israelis of. In this instance, it would seem, two wrongs really do make a right. In addition, Hamas uses terrorist tactics. The Isrealis have used such tactics as well, both historically and more recently. I'd argue that many of Isreali's actions involve a wantom disregard for civilian life, as opposed to overt attempts to kill civilians to acheive a political goal. If one adopts this latter view as the definition of terrorism senso stricto, Hamas clearly fits and Israel may or may not, depending on what you believe about their "true motives". Maybe ogre really does think the Palestinians are 100% at fault, and many of you guys seem to feel that the same extreme view is accurate, just flipped around. I reckon that the truth is more complex than 100% right or wrong either way. When has any conflict ever been that simple?
Personally, I'd blame Israel for continued settlement expansion and a refusal to withdraw to Israel's rightful pre-1967 borders. I'd blame Palestinian extremist elements for fanning the flames and giving the Israelis a reason to be afraid. Fear makes people do stupid things. Sorry, but shooting at someone who enters your lands to make war is one thing ... Lobbing a rocket into civilian areas is something else. Keep giving Isreal an excuse is a great way to prop up expansionist mindsets.
I’m always conflicted with that reasoning – I agree with you in theory, but…how else can they fight back? Palestinian pacifism may help to stop the fighting….and maybe, eventually, someday…contribute to easing the oppressive measures taken against them….but would that trickle down to Israeli withdrawl from Palestinian land? I have my doubts.
The definition of terrorism you speak of seems to have as much to do with scale as it does motives IMO. Either side can claim any motive for any action…But from a PR standpoint, it’s much easier to call IED and handheld rocket attacks ‘terrorism’, than it is for state-sponsored military actions, sanctions, blockades etc…. Those actions get to fall back on terms like ‘collateral damage’, ‘security’, and similar excuses – actions which, comparatively, make IED’s and rockets look like child’s play.
It does tie in to another point you made – that the extremist mindset seen on both sides is especially detrimental to the Palestinian cause in that it takes away from the freedom fighting side of their story – being seen as freedom fighters may be the difference in finding outside sympathy…. which, if gained from the Israeli and US public, could be the only chance they have of affecting change. Whereas Israeli extremism has less negative impact on Israel’s cause because they’re already in the position of power and are not so desperate to change the status quo.
It’s sad that lives hang in the balance of a f’n PR competition….the deeper pockets always prevail, with no regard for right and wrong.
you're 100% right, i shouldn't have used that word
i just hate when people accuse Israel of "cleansing"
let me rephrase:
when hamas attacks, israel is targeting hamas
Cool. I disagree with your last sentence, but I'm glad you can concede that you used the wrong word (and I'm more glad you don't actually feel that way).
Talking about eliminating the enemy is totally counterproductive….hearts and minds and all that, ya know?
I’m always conflicted with that reasoning – I agree with you in theory, but…how else can they fight back? Palestinian pacifism may help to stop the fighting….and maybe, eventually, someday…contribute to easing the oppressive measures taken against them….but would that trickle down to Israeli withdrawl from Palestinian land? I have my doubts.
Israel locks up the pacifists without a charge or trial, too
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
An IDF squad leader is quoted in the daily newspaper Ha'aretz as saying his soldiers interpreted the rules to mean "we should kill everyone there [in the centre of Gaza]. Everyone there is a terrorist."
this is a quote from a pissed off soldier that was complaining to his commander that they should kill everyone, this is actually pretty fked up but its not the overall policy of the idf
Israel tries to claim that virtually everything and everyone was an extension of Hamas and therefor a viable target so you can save the 'Israel doesn't kill innocent people' crap
what are you talking about?!?!
you're believing MORE of their lies ( http://www.takeapen.org/Takeapen/Templa ... 4&FID=1663 )
think logically for a second, if israel actually tries to claim everything and everyone is an extension of hamas don't you think A LOT more people would have died.
considering the density of the population, and the well know fact that hamas was using civilians and civilian buildings as shields and places to launch rockets, i think Israel did a great job in protecting the palestinian civilians, listen its war, it sucks so much that innocent palestinian civilians died , its very unfortunate i agree , but to say Israel is intentionally targeting all palestinians including civilians is just not right
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ2nYZyNpcU
Former British Army Colonel Richard Kemp discusses on BBC the Operation Cast Lead within Gaza. He speaks about the military challenges, IDF's conduct, the civilian casualties, and Hamas using the Gaza population as human shields. "I don't think that there has ever been a time in the history of warfare when any army has made more efforts to reduce civilian casualties and deaths of innocent people than the IDF is doing today in Gaza" .
get its act together? what does that even mean? we're talking about people's lives here. Israel is allowed to keep killing these people from Gaza until Hamas 'gets its act together'?
get its act together - as in:
1. recognize the Jewish people have a right to the land of Israel
2. denounce terror and violence
3. stop targeting civilians and hiding behind civilians
4. stop smuggling weapons into gaza
5. stop lying and brainwashing people
but to say Israel is intentionally targeting all palestinians including civilians is just not right
who are you trying to convince? yourself?
israel targets innocent palestinians every single day.
are you trying to convince me it's not intentional, and it's acceptable to you that israel can just arrest and imprison something like 40% of Palestinian men from the Occupied Territories, without any trial, without any charges laid against them. just brutally and cruelly arrested while their families are destroyed and traumatized forever.
and they can keep them there forever if they like. no trial, no charges, just fuck you, we will lock you up. suck it up right?
we can also talk about the Israeli army stopping ambulances at gunpoint to prevent sick people receiving care. old people. children. denying their basic human rights in every way they possibly can.
what a fucked up place. and you support that? how can you? is it because it's not your ass that's treated like that?
and that's just the tip of the iceberg. i could give you plenty of examples of Israels cruel and inhumane treatment against ordinary palestinian people.
Israel tries to claim that virtually everything and everyone was an extension of Hamas and therefor a viable target so you can save the 'Israel doesn't kill innocent people' crap
so everything that anyone says that accuses Israel of anything illegal is just a lie that the Hamas propaganda machine has been spreading, do I have that right? It's amazing how Hamas, which doesn't even have enough money to rebuild structures destroyed by Israel since last year, or money for food, medicine, etc - somehow, this organization, Hamas, is able to run one of the most extensive propaganda outlets in the world. Tell me, is Richard Goldstone, who authored the Goldstone Report that showed war crimes committed by Israel, a member of Hamas? They must have employed him, since obviously Israel does not do anything wrong.
think logically for a second, if israel actually tries to claim everything and everyone is an extension of hamas don't you think A LOT more people would have died.
how many people have to die in order for you to believe that Israel did attack civilian areas knowing civilians would die? put a number on it, is it 500 or a 1000? 5000 or 100,000?
considering the density of the population, and the well know fact that hamas was using civilians and civilian buildings as shields and places to launch rockets, i think Israel did a great job in protecting the palestinian civilians, listen its war, it sucks so much that innocent palestinian civilians died , its very unfortunate i agree , but to say Israel is intentionally targeting all palestinians including civilians is just not right
Go read the UN Goldstone Report which outlines perfectly the fact that Israel intentionally targeted schools, homes, mosques, etc. Israel also attacked buildings owned by the UN which had no trace of Hamas whatsoever. You have no evidence to verify any of your claims, they are just lies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ2nYZyNpcU
Former British Army Colonel Richard Kemp discusses on BBC the Operation Cast Lead within Gaza. He speaks about the military challenges, IDF's conduct, the civilian casualties, and Hamas using the Gaza population as human shields. "I don't think that there has ever been a time in the history of warfare when any army has made more efforts to reduce civilian casualties and deaths of innocent people than the IDF is doing today in Gaza" .
This guy has never even been to Gaza, he has no idea what the fuck he's talking about. Go ask a child living in Gaza what he thinks. There had been countless reports of Israel using white phosphorus, of them killing civilians holding white flags, killing mothers, children, elderly - hundreds of civilians were killed in Gaza during just 3 weeks. You should feel ashamed of yourself for defending that, it's disgusting.
oh my god, hahaha, you're insane if you believe anything that article says. even Israeli historians are now dispelling the fake history Zionists have been spewing for decades. Go read Ilan Pappe or Benny Morris or something.
get its act together? what does that even mean? we're talking about people's lives here. Israel is allowed to keep killing these people from Gaza until Hamas 'gets its act together'?
get its act together - as in:
1. recognize the Jewish people have a right to the land of Israel
2. denounce terror and violence
3. stop targeting civilians and hiding behind civilians
4. stop smuggling weapons into gaza
5. stop lying and brainwashing people
1. that is what you qualify as getting it's act together? that's just stupid. Jewish people DON'T have a right to the land of Israel and no one in their right mind will ever agree with that. You're telling me a Palestinian man whose family traces their roots back to Jaffa has no claim, while a Jewish boy whose family has never even set foot on Palestine can claim a right to Israel? That's the definition of unjust, of discrimination, and that is why Zionism is a racist and unjust ideology.
2. right after Israel does.
3. right after Israel does.
4. right after Israel gives up its F-16s and nuclear missiles.
5. right after Israel stops funding its billion dollar propaganda and lobbyist campaign in the US that forces Americans' complicity in supporting of the most brutal murderous regimes in the world.
The Palestinians are the ones subject to occupation. They have no reason to give up resistance until Israel begins to treat them humanely.
Hamas has accepted the same thing everyone in the world is calling for - a two state solution. Why is it that Israel refuses to adhere to international law and cease settlement expansion? Why is it that Israel refuses to acknowledge the Palestinians' legal rights to a state? Instead, Israel has chosen war and occupation. If a few rockets are sent their way, they should not be complaining. Resistance is what comes with occupation. Ask the US how they're doing in Iraq or Afghanistan. We will never win those wars, just as Israel will never conquer the Palestinians, it's time to recognize that and begin seeking a proper peace among them. Otherwise, Israel's war and destruction may eventually just catch up with it.
Israel is in an impossible situation of trying to eliminate their enemies who are targeting their civilians while keeping the innocent civilian population safe
I'd argue that many of Isreali's actions involve a wantom disregard for civilian life, as opposed to overt attempts to kill civilians to acheive a political goal.
Tell that to Rachel Corrie.
I'd argue that dropping a 20001b bomb on a residential building in the attempt to kill one Hamas leader is tantamount to an overt attempt to kill civilians.
I'd also argue that shelling heavily populated residential neighbourhoods for 3 weeks is tantamount to an overt attempt to kill civilians.
And I'd argue that shooting unarmed civilians waving white flags, bombing a U.N safe-house, shooting an unarmed man in a wheelchair and then running him over with a tank, shooting 12 year old boys throwing stones, bulldozing Palestinian homes when it is known that the occupants are still inside, dropping white phosphorous on heavily populated residential neighbourhoods e.t.c, is tantamount to an overt attempt to kill civilians.
considering the density of the population, and the well know fact that hamas was using civilians and civilian buildings as shields and places to launch rockets
Except they weren't using civilians and civilian buildings as shields. And posting a Youtube link won't change that fact.
Stop lying.
Report of the United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict
457. Other sources reviewed by the Mission confirm scepticism about the intensity of attacks on the Israeli armed forces by Palestinian armed groups in built-up areas. The Mission notes that a thread running through many of the Israeli soldiers’ testimonies collected by the Israeli NGO Breaking the Silence is that they had no encounters with Palestinian combatants.315 According to another NGO report, “Hamas fighters plainly were frustrated by their inability to engage in street battles”. 316 Generally, the Mission received relatively few reports of actual crossfire between the Israeli armed forces and Palestinian armed groups. This would also appear to be reflected in the low number of Israeli soldiers killed or injured during the ground offensive.317 The Mission also notes that in none of the incidents it investigated was there any indication that civilians were killed in crossfire between Palestinian armed groups and the Israeli armed forces.
473. The Mission did not find any evidence of civilians being forced to remain in their houses by Palestinian armed groups.
481. The Mission finds that the presence of Palestinian armed fighters in urban residential areas during the military operations is established. On the basis of the information it gathered, the Mission is unable to form an opinion on the exact nature or the intensity of their combat activities in urban residential areas that would have placed the civilian population and civilian objects at risk of attack. While reports reviewed by the Mission credibly indicate that members of Palestinian armed groups were not always dressed in a way that distinguished them from civilians, the Mission found no evidence that Palestinian combatants mingled with the civilian population with the intention of shielding themselves from attack.
484. The Mission is unable to make any determination on the general allegation that Palestinian armed groups used mosques for military purposes. It notes that, in the one incident it investigated of an Israeli attack on a mosque, it found no indication that the mosque was so used.
485. On the basis of the investigations it has conducted, the Mission did not find any evidence to support the allegations that hospital facilities were used by the Gaza authorities or by Palestinian armed groups to shield military activities and that ambulances were used to transport combatants or for other military purposes.
486. On the basis of the information it gathered, the Mission found no indication that the civilian population was forced by Hamas or Palestinian armed groups to remain in areas under attack from the Israeli armed forces.
Rachel Corrie chose to stand in front of a moving bulldozer, presumably to make her point. However valid her point was, there was probably a better way to make it. Sorry, but that's not the same thing as Israel bombing Lebanese or Palestinian civilians, who do not have a choice in the matter (unless maybe they choose to shelter militants). It may sound pretty crass, but I'll say it anyhow: If there is a heaven for principled but unintelligent activists, Rachel Corrie is there.
Rachel Corrie chose to stand in front of a moving bulldozer, presumably to make her point. However valid her point was, there was probably a better way to make it. Sorry, but that's not the same thing as Israel bombing Lebanese or Palestinian civilians, who do not have a choice in the matter (unless maybe they choose to shelter militants). It may sound pretty crass, but I'll say it anyhow: If there is a heaven for principled but unintelligent activists, Rachel Corrie is there.
Actually, she stood in front of a bulldozer in order to try and prevent a families home from being destroyed illegally by an illegal occupying army. She was wearing a bright orange jacket and was clearly visible to the driver of the U.S supplied Caterpillar bulldozer. I don't see anything unintelligent about her actions. Do you also think that Tom Hurndall was a moron for trying to save the lives of some Palestinian children under Israeli gunfire? He was shot in the head and killed by an Israeli sniper.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Hurndall
'His father told a British inquest that, according to ISM and Palestinian witnesses, Hurndall had seen a group of children playing and had noticed that bullets were hitt'ng the ground between them. Several children had run away but some were "paralysed with fear"[6] and Hurndall went to help them. Hurndall's father told the inquest: “Tom went to take one girl out of the line of fire, which he did successfully, but when he went back, as he knelt down [to collect another], he was shot.”[2]'
Jocelyn Hurndall - The Guardian, Saturday 10 January 2004
The Israeli army shot my son, and the toll continues to rise
In the pensive hours of the night, I am struck by the varying values that mankind chooses to allot to life - as was my son Tom.
Earlier this month, I read with mixed feelings the news that local Palestinian militia had dynamited an Israeli defence force watchtower in the town of Rafah, in the Gaza Strip. It was from this watchtower, which has been responsible for untold misery to many innocent families in Rafah, that Tom was shot in the head last April. At the time he was trying to help Palestinian children to safety. He now lies in a vegetative state in a hospital in London with no hope of recovery.
This week we learned that the Israeli soldier who has been arrested for the shooting is alleged to have smoked cannabis with his battalion. As last year was drawing to a close, a phone call from the British Foreign Office informed me that, under interrogation, this soldier has confessed to shooting my son, knowing he was an unarmed civilian. He claimed that the shot was meant as a "deterrent". From what? From rescuing children? Had he been so conditioned that an act of humanity could only inspire in him such a violent reaction?
I felt no sense of relief then but, for the first time, allowed myself to feel increasing anger. The IDF's inability to differentiate between friend and foe, truth and untruth, and to see themselves as they are seen, is clear to all.
I read the observations recorded in Tom's Middle-East journals. They show a young man determined to be open-minded, to understand and, above all, to make a difference. He had come to understand, as we do now, the customary illegal, inhuman retribution exacted by the IDF from this particular watchtower on the local community, little realising how it was to leave him a thread away from death.
It seems that life is cheap in the occupied territories. Different value attached to life depends on whether the victim happens to be Israeli, international or Palestinian. This has been exemplified recently by the reaction of the Israeli public to the shooting of an Israeli peace activist, fresh out of his three-year military police service, demonstrating against the illegal "security" fence. Two days later an announcement was made that a military police inquiry was to be held into the shooting. Questions were raised in the Knesset. This is in stark contrast to the six months of campaigning that it took for an inquiry to be launched into the shooting of Tom.
There have been thousands of killings in Palestine since the intifada, with only a handful having the benefit of an investigation. Now, a three-week occupation of Nablus (the largest city in Palestine) has left a further 19 people dead and dozens of homes and buildings destroyed, leaving scores of innocent people homeless, all on a pretext of searching for a terror suspect.
When will those responsible accept that it is illegal to collectively and obsessively punish a whole community? Has the hard-nosed Sharon government made connections between the horror of the Holocaust and the current brutal incursions? Countless insightful Israelis, Palestinians and people the world over have done so. Is it surprising that Israel was voted the most dangerous threat to world peace in a recent European Union poll?
It hurts me to hear the deafening silence of our own government. How can there have been no statement of condemnation or condolence for the innocent victims of Israel's mindless violence from our own prime minister, Tony Blair? The silence was only broken when on Christmas day the United States president "strongly condemned" the actions of the suicide bombers responsible for killing four Israeli soldiers at a bus stop just outside Tel Aviv. Does this double standard not underline the lack of regard in which both the British and US governments hold Palestinian life?
So I have questions to ask of Tony Blair. Does he regard the children of Palestine as children of a lesser god? Does he accept that such inaction is tantamount to complicity in the process of destroying any peace initiative in the Middle East? Mr Blair, you know now that an Israeli soldier has confessed to shooting in cold blood an unarmed British citizen who was trying to shepherd children away to safety. When will you be ready to openly condemn these actions?
· Jocelyn Hurndall is on the committee of the Thomas Hurndall Foundation, which campaigns for justice for the Palestinian people
An IDF squad leader is quoted in the daily newspaper Ha'aretz as saying his soldiers interpreted the rules to mean "we should kill everyone there [in the centre of Gaza]. Everyone there is a terrorist."
this is a quote from a pissed off soldier that was complaining to his commander that they should kill everyone, this is actually pretty fked up but its not the overall policy of the idf
and how do you know this??? so the IDF squad leader is lying? i suppose he's a part of hamas' propaganda campaign, eh?
Israel tries to claim that virtually everything and everyone was an extension of Hamas and therefor a viable target so you can save the 'Israel doesn't kill innocent people' crap
what are you talking about?!?!
you're believing MORE of their lies ( http://www.takeapen.org/Takeapen/Templa ... 4&FID=1663 )
think logically for a second, if israel actually tries to claim everything and everyone is an extension of hamas don't you think A LOT more people would have died.
B’Tselem, who i guess you will claim is the jewish arm of the Hamas propganda campagin, disagrees with you
http://www.btselem.org/Download/2009090 ... es_Eng.pdf
On 27 December 2008, the first day of the operation, the army bombed the main police
headquarters in Gaza City, killing 42 police cadets who were standing in formation. The same
day, Israel also bombed some 18 police stations in the Gaza Strip. In total, 248 police officers
were killed that day.
Israeli officials stated, in interviews with the media and in official announcements, that
attacks on the police were justified because police officers would in the future take part in
hostilities against Israel,***and that every object belonging to Hamas was a legitimate target,
regardless of the actions of the persons attacked.***
considering the density of the population, and the well know fact that hamas was using civilians and civilian buildings as shields and places to launch rockets, i think Israel did a great job in protecting the palestinian civilians, listen its war, it sucks so much that innocent palestinian civilians died , its very unfortunate i agree , but to say Israel is intentionally targeting all palestinians including civilians is just not right
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ2nYZyNpcU
Former British Army Colonel Richard Kemp discusses on BBC the Operation Cast Lead within Gaza. He speaks about the military challenges, IDF's conduct, the civilian casualties, and Hamas using the Gaza population as human shields. "I don't think that there has ever been a time in the history of warfare when any army has made more efforts to reduce civilian casualties and deaths of innocent people than the IDF is doing today in Gaza" .
ummmm, Goldstone, who is jewish and a zionist, has also said Israel used human shields.
are you saying the amount of force used in operation cast lead was justified??? they did such a great job they bombed UN buildings, refugee camps, Red Cross buildings... and tried to lie about some of it and changed their story a few times :roll:
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Many of the facts surrounding the Rachel Corrie incident remain obscure (e.g., whether or not the bulldozer operator indeed saw her). You guys think she is entirely worthy of admiration, so it is easy to assume that the bulldozer operator was a maniac, as opposed to a recent immigrant to Israel from Russia who swears up and down that he didn't see her (the other side of the story). Unless you were there, Brynzie, and I know you weren't, let's concede that the true facts are not clear.
And because you asked, no, I don't think that Tom Hurndall was an idiot. If that anecdote is indeed true, he's a hero. Of course, he was trying to rescue children, not a house.
Many of the facts surrounding the Rachel Corrie incident remain obscure (e.g., whether or not the bulldozer operator indeed saw her). You guys think she is entirely worthy of admiration, so it is easy to assume that the bulldozer operator was a maniac, as opposed to a recent immigrant to Israel from Russia who swears up and down that he didn't see her (the other side of the story). Unless you were there, Brynzie, and I know you weren't, let's concede that the true facts are not clear.
And because you asked, no, I don't think that Tom Hurndall was an idiot. If that anecdote is indeed true, he's a hero. Of course, he was trying to rescue children, not a house.
isnt the official Israeli version that the IDF was clearing brush and she was killed by debris she was hiding behind from the brush clearing and deny they were demolishing a home?
all this despite IDF regulations saying "drivers of the armored personnel carriers (APCs) that accompany bulldozers are responsible for directing the drivers towards their targets, because the Caterpillar D9 bulldozers have a restricted field of vision with several blind spots."
also, witness there claim: http://community.seattletimes.nwsource. ... otester17m
"When the bulldozer refused to stop or turn aside she climbed up onto the mound of dirt and rubble being gathered in front of it ... to look directly at the driver who kept on advancing,"
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Ogre, my friend(and I use that word loosely) are the biggest sheep on the farm. man I've read many of ur posts, and I've never read such dumb blantenly stupid comments. I know ur Jewish bro but man open up ur heart. Do u really believe everything u preech to us? I've asked u before a question about ur religion and u never answered me. So I'll ask it AGAIN- in the "true" Jewish faith, isn't it true that Jews in the world will NEVER have a land to call home until the messiah returns? I had a Jewish rabbi tell me that personally. I just dnt understand how after WWII any person of the Jewish faith can sit back and allow any human of ANY faith go through what the Palestinians are going through. And to be someone who actually defends it, man that says a lot about u as a human and a lot about ur heart if u even really have one. Wake the fuck up my brother, feel, see, learn, and truly BELIEVE.....
I've asked u before a question about ur religion and u never answered me. So I'll ask it AGAIN- in the "true" Jewish faith, isn't it true that Jews in the world will NEVER have a land to call home until the messiah returns? I had a Jewish rabbi tell me that personally.
doesn't their religion also say it's a sin to kill or uproot a tree? and yet they destroy Palestinian grooves repeatedly....
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
In all honesty, if you guys want to call the Jews on religious hypocrisy, we'd all better have a go at Islam too.
this is true in some cases, but a lot of people use the bible saying their god promised that land to them so they have a right to it. if it is true that it says they won't have this land until the 2nd coming or whatever then it's more of an issue
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
In all honesty, if you guys want to call the Jews on religious hypocrisy, we'd all better have a go at Islam too.
try it. i'm confident in what i know about islam to disprove anything you try to say anyway...
I'm with outlaw, I'll go heads up with anyone on Islam...remember this- Islam is the FASTEST growing religion in the world. Perfect, probably not, but as close to it as it can be. Shit, I'll bet one day mr vedder even converts. Hahaha
Benjamin Netanyahu: Israel will never quit settlements
Monday, 25 January 2010
The Israeli prime minister has taken part in tree-planting ceremonies in the West Bank while declaring Israel will never leave those areas.
Benjamin Netanyahu said the Jewish settlements blocs would always remain part of the state of Israel.
His remarks came hours after a visit by US envoy George Mitchell who is trying to reopen peace talks between Israel and Palestinians.
A Palestinian spokesman said the comments undermined peace negotiations.
"Our message is clear: We are planting here, we will stay here, we will build here. This place will be an inseparable part of Israel for eternity", the said.
Mr Netanyahu's comments have angered Palestinians, who want a state in the West Bank, Gaza Strip and east Jerusalem.
"This is an unacceptable act that destroys all the efforts being exerted by Senator Mitchell in order to bring back the parties to the negotiating table", Palestinian spokesman Nabil Abu Rudeina told the Associated Press.
Meanwhile, in the Jordanian capital Amman, Mr Mitchell emphasised the US commitment to the creation of an independent Palestinian state.
"We intend to continue to pursue our efforts until that objective is achieved", he told AP.
US attempts to revive peace talks have stalled over the Jewish settlement issue and the Palestinians' refusal to return to peace talks.
The Palestinians insist that Israel has a long-standing commitment under an existing peace plan to stop settlement growth.
But the Israeli government says it has temporarily curbed construction as a goodwill gesture.
The two sides appear no closer even to sitting in the same room, says the BBC's Tim Franks in Jerusalem.
In all honesty, if you guys want to call the Jews on religious hypocrisy, we'd all better have a go at Islam too.
try it. i'm confident in what i know about islam to disprove anything you try to say anyway...
I'm with outlaw, I'll go heads up with anyone on Islam...remember this- Islam is the FASTEST growing religion in the world. Perfect, probably not, but as close to it as it can be. Shit, I'll bet one day mr vedder even converts. Hahaha
First off, WTF? Islam is "close to a perfect religion"? What does that mean?
outlaw,
I am not knocking Islamic theology, although I actually do have a few problems with it. I was responding to the people in this thread who were saying things like knocking down trees is inconsistent with the Jewish faith. Sure, this is accurate. Suicide bombing is inconsistent with Islam, as well. My point: Let's not pretend that the Israelis are the only people over there who act in ways that are incongruent with their supposed faith. Although while you mention it, what is your deal? You are one of the most defensive people on here when it comes to the topic of Islam. Recent convert or something?
In all honesty, if you guys want to call the Jews on religious hypocrisy, we'd all better have a go at Islam too.
this is true in some cases, but a lot of people use the bible saying their god promised that land to them so they have a right to it. if it is true that it says they won't have this land until the 2nd coming or whatever then it's more of an issue
Look, someone can understand the intent behind my points. Thanks pepe.
Anyhow, my view is that no one should be using religious doctrine to shore up land claims. And yes, that means that I do have a problem with Israelis using this as the basis for statehood. My view of Israel is largely pragmatic. Its there, its not going anywhere, and everyone over there is going to have to learn to get along. I do feel that the least the Israelis can do is stick to the borders they were originally given.
Look, someone can understand the intent behind my points. Thanks pepe.
Anyhow, my view is that no one should be using religious doctrine to shore up land claims. And yes, that means that I do have a problem with Israelis using this as the basis for statehood. My view of Israel is largely pragmatic. Its there, its not going anywhere, and everyone over there is going to have to learn to get along. I do feel that the least the Israelis can do is stick to the borders they were originally given.
i can not understand your points, to me it seems you are shilling for the isreali government and their policies...good luck with them sticking to their borders...they are not honoring them now, nor will they ever with war hawks like netanyahu in office....land is the only REAL currency left in this shithole of a world we live in....land = value.....why should anyone expect the isrealis to stick to their original borders when clearly every move they make is an attempt to snatch more land and displace more palestinians??? how can you expect hamas to lay down when they are under the isreali thumb????????
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Comments
The definition of terrorism you speak of seems to have as much to do with scale as it does motives IMO. Either side can claim any motive for any action…But from a PR standpoint, it’s much easier to call IED and handheld rocket attacks ‘terrorism’, than it is for state-sponsored military actions, sanctions, blockades etc…. Those actions get to fall back on terms like ‘collateral damage’, ‘security’, and similar excuses – actions which, comparatively, make IED’s and rockets look like child’s play.
It does tie in to another point you made – that the extremist mindset seen on both sides is especially detrimental to the Palestinian cause in that it takes away from the freedom fighting side of their story – being seen as freedom fighters may be the difference in finding outside sympathy…. which, if gained from the Israeli and US public, could be the only chance they have of affecting change. Whereas Israeli extremism has less negative impact on Israel’s cause because they’re already in the position of power and are not so desperate to change the status quo.
It’s sad that lives hang in the balance of a f’n PR competition….the deeper pockets always prevail, with no regard for right and wrong.
Cool. I disagree with your last sentence, but I'm glad you can concede that you used the wrong word (and I'm more glad you don't actually feel that way).
Talking about eliminating the enemy is totally counterproductive….hearts and minds and all that, ya know?
Israel locks up the pacifists without a charge or trial, too
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=121003&p=2728514
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
you're believing MORE of their lies ( http://www.takeapen.org/Takeapen/Templa ... 4&FID=1663 )
think logically for a second, if israel actually tries to claim everything and everyone is an extension of hamas don't you think A LOT more people would have died.
considering the density of the population, and the well know fact that hamas was using civilians and civilian buildings as shields and places to launch rockets, i think Israel did a great job in protecting the palestinian civilians, listen its war, it sucks so much that innocent palestinian civilians died , its very unfortunate i agree , but to say Israel is intentionally targeting all palestinians including civilians is just not right
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ2nYZyNpcU
Former British Army Colonel Richard Kemp discusses on BBC the Operation Cast Lead within Gaza. He speaks about the military challenges, IDF's conduct, the civilian casualties, and Hamas using the Gaza population as human shields. "I don't think that there has ever been a time in the history of warfare when any army has made more efforts to reduce civilian casualties and deaths of innocent people than the IDF is doing today in Gaza" .
http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/167 ... nian-land/ get its act together - as in:
1. recognize the Jewish people have a right to the land of Israel
2. denounce terror and violence
3. stop targeting civilians and hiding behind civilians
4. stop smuggling weapons into gaza
5. stop lying and brainwashing people
israel targets innocent palestinians every single day.
are you trying to convince me it's not intentional, and it's acceptable to you that israel can just arrest and imprison something like 40% of Palestinian men from the Occupied Territories, without any trial, without any charges laid against them. just brutally and cruelly arrested while their families are destroyed and traumatized forever.
and they can keep them there forever if they like. no trial, no charges, just fuck you, we will lock you up. suck it up right?
we can also talk about the Israeli army stopping ambulances at gunpoint to prevent sick people receiving care. old people. children. denying their basic human rights in every way they possibly can.
what a fucked up place. and you support that? how can you? is it because it's not your ass that's treated like that?
and that's just the tip of the iceberg. i could give you plenty of examples of Israels cruel and inhumane treatment against ordinary palestinian people.
cruel motherfuckers.
2. right after Israel does.
3. right after Israel does.
4. right after Israel gives up its F-16s and nuclear missiles.
5. right after Israel stops funding its billion dollar propaganda and lobbyist campaign in the US that forces Americans' complicity in supporting of the most brutal murderous regimes in the world.
The Palestinians are the ones subject to occupation. They have no reason to give up resistance until Israel begins to treat them humanely.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/970807.html
Hamas has accepted the same thing everyone in the world is calling for - a two state solution. Why is it that Israel refuses to adhere to international law and cease settlement expansion? Why is it that Israel refuses to acknowledge the Palestinians' legal rights to a state? Instead, Israel has chosen war and occupation. If a few rockets are sent their way, they should not be complaining. Resistance is what comes with occupation. Ask the US how they're doing in Iraq or Afghanistan. We will never win those wars, just as Israel will never conquer the Palestinians, it's time to recognize that and begin seeking a proper peace among them. Otherwise, Israel's war and destruction may eventually just catch up with it.
Except you are fully aware that is a blatent lie.
In the case of the attack on Gaza last year; Killing an estimated 800 civilians, and 250 police recruits doesn't constitute targeting Hamas.
Just as killing 1000 Lebanese civilians in 2006 doesn't constitute targeting Hezbollah.
Care to eleborate?
Is that how you justify this?:
Tell that to Rachel Corrie.
I'd argue that dropping a 20001b bomb on a residential building in the attempt to kill one Hamas leader is tantamount to an overt attempt to kill civilians.
I'd also argue that shelling heavily populated residential neighbourhoods for 3 weeks is tantamount to an overt attempt to kill civilians.
And I'd argue that shooting unarmed civilians waving white flags, bombing a U.N safe-house, shooting an unarmed man in a wheelchair and then running him over with a tank, shooting 12 year old boys throwing stones, bulldozing Palestinian homes when it is known that the occupants are still inside, dropping white phosphorous on heavily populated residential neighbourhoods e.t.c, is tantamount to an overt attempt to kill civilians.
Except they weren't using civilians and civilian buildings as shields. And posting a Youtube link won't change that fact.
Stop lying.
Report of the United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict
http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hr ... Report.pdf
457. Other sources reviewed by the Mission confirm scepticism about the intensity of attacks on the Israeli armed forces by Palestinian armed groups in built-up areas. The Mission notes that a thread running through many of the Israeli soldiers’ testimonies collected by the Israeli NGO Breaking the Silence is that they had no encounters with Palestinian combatants.315 According to another NGO report, “Hamas fighters plainly were frustrated by their inability to engage in street battles”. 316 Generally, the Mission received relatively few reports of actual crossfire between the Israeli armed forces and Palestinian armed groups. This would also appear to be reflected in the low number of Israeli soldiers killed or injured during the ground offensive.317 The Mission also notes that in none of the incidents it investigated was there any indication that civilians were killed in crossfire between Palestinian armed groups and the Israeli armed forces.
473. The Mission did not find any evidence of civilians being forced to remain in their houses by Palestinian armed groups.
481. The Mission finds that the presence of Palestinian armed fighters in urban residential areas during the military operations is established. On the basis of the information it gathered, the Mission is unable to form an opinion on the exact nature or the intensity of their combat activities in urban residential areas that would have placed the civilian population and civilian objects at risk of attack. While reports reviewed by the Mission credibly indicate that members of Palestinian armed groups were not always dressed in a way that distinguished them from civilians, the Mission found no evidence that Palestinian combatants mingled with the civilian population with the intention of shielding themselves from attack.
484. The Mission is unable to make any determination on the general allegation that Palestinian armed groups used mosques for military purposes. It notes that, in the one incident it investigated of an Israeli attack on a mosque, it found no indication that the mosque was so used.
485. On the basis of the investigations it has conducted, the Mission did not find any evidence to support the allegations that hospital facilities were used by the Gaza authorities or by Palestinian armed groups to shield military activities and that ambulances were used to transport combatants or for other military purposes.
486. On the basis of the information it gathered, the Mission found no indication that the civilian population was forced by Hamas or Palestinian armed groups to remain in areas under attack from the Israeli armed forces.
http://moinansari.files.wordpress.com/2 ... ne_map.jpg
Actually, she stood in front of a bulldozer in order to try and prevent a families home from being destroyed illegally by an illegal occupying army. She was wearing a bright orange jacket and was clearly visible to the driver of the U.S supplied Caterpillar bulldozer. I don't see anything unintelligent about her actions. Do you also think that Tom Hurndall was a moron for trying to save the lives of some Palestinian children under Israeli gunfire? He was shot in the head and killed by an Israeli sniper.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Hurndall
'His father told a British inquest that, according to ISM and Palestinian witnesses, Hurndall had seen a group of children playing and had noticed that bullets were hitt'ng the ground between them. Several children had run away but some were "paralysed with fear"[6] and Hurndall went to help them. Hurndall's father told the inquest: “Tom went to take one girl out of the line of fire, which he did successfully, but when he went back, as he knelt down [to collect another], he was shot.”[2]'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/ja ... ment/print
What price a life?
Jocelyn Hurndall - The Guardian, Saturday 10 January 2004
The Israeli army shot my son, and the toll continues to rise
In the pensive hours of the night, I am struck by the varying values that mankind chooses to allot to life - as was my son Tom.
Earlier this month, I read with mixed feelings the news that local Palestinian militia had dynamited an Israeli defence force watchtower in the town of Rafah, in the Gaza Strip. It was from this watchtower, which has been responsible for untold misery to many innocent families in Rafah, that Tom was shot in the head last April. At the time he was trying to help Palestinian children to safety. He now lies in a vegetative state in a hospital in London with no hope of recovery.
This week we learned that the Israeli soldier who has been arrested for the shooting is alleged to have smoked cannabis with his battalion. As last year was drawing to a close, a phone call from the British Foreign Office informed me that, under interrogation, this soldier has confessed to shooting my son, knowing he was an unarmed civilian. He claimed that the shot was meant as a "deterrent". From what? From rescuing children? Had he been so conditioned that an act of humanity could only inspire in him such a violent reaction?
I felt no sense of relief then but, for the first time, allowed myself to feel increasing anger. The IDF's inability to differentiate between friend and foe, truth and untruth, and to see themselves as they are seen, is clear to all.
I read the observations recorded in Tom's Middle-East journals. They show a young man determined to be open-minded, to understand and, above all, to make a difference. He had come to understand, as we do now, the customary illegal, inhuman retribution exacted by the IDF from this particular watchtower on the local community, little realising how it was to leave him a thread away from death.
It seems that life is cheap in the occupied territories. Different value attached to life depends on whether the victim happens to be Israeli, international or Palestinian. This has been exemplified recently by the reaction of the Israeli public to the shooting of an Israeli peace activist, fresh out of his three-year military police service, demonstrating against the illegal "security" fence. Two days later an announcement was made that a military police inquiry was to be held into the shooting. Questions were raised in the Knesset. This is in stark contrast to the six months of campaigning that it took for an inquiry to be launched into the shooting of Tom.
There have been thousands of killings in Palestine since the intifada, with only a handful having the benefit of an investigation. Now, a three-week occupation of Nablus (the largest city in Palestine) has left a further 19 people dead and dozens of homes and buildings destroyed, leaving scores of innocent people homeless, all on a pretext of searching for a terror suspect.
When will those responsible accept that it is illegal to collectively and obsessively punish a whole community? Has the hard-nosed Sharon government made connections between the horror of the Holocaust and the current brutal incursions? Countless insightful Israelis, Palestinians and people the world over have done so. Is it surprising that Israel was voted the most dangerous threat to world peace in a recent European Union poll?
It hurts me to hear the deafening silence of our own government. How can there have been no statement of condemnation or condolence for the innocent victims of Israel's mindless violence from our own prime minister, Tony Blair? The silence was only broken when on Christmas day the United States president "strongly condemned" the actions of the suicide bombers responsible for killing four Israeli soldiers at a bus stop just outside Tel Aviv. Does this double standard not underline the lack of regard in which both the British and US governments hold Palestinian life?
So I have questions to ask of Tony Blair. Does he regard the children of Palestine as children of a lesser god? Does he accept that such inaction is tantamount to complicity in the process of destroying any peace initiative in the Middle East? Mr Blair, you know now that an Israeli soldier has confessed to shooting in cold blood an unarmed British citizen who was trying to shepherd children away to safety. When will you be ready to openly condemn these actions?
· Jocelyn Hurndall is on the committee of the Thomas Hurndall Foundation, which campaigns for justice for the Palestinian people
and how do you know this??? so the IDF squad leader is lying? i suppose he's a part of hamas' propaganda campaign, eh?
B’Tselem, who i guess you will claim is the jewish arm of the Hamas propganda campagin, disagrees with you
http://www.btselem.org/Download/2009090 ... es_Eng.pdf
On 27 December 2008, the first day of the operation, the army bombed the main police
headquarters in Gaza City, killing 42 police cadets who were standing in formation. The same
day, Israel also bombed some 18 police stations in the Gaza Strip. In total, 248 police officers
were killed that day.
Israeli officials stated, in interviews with the media and in official announcements, that
attacks on the police were justified because police officers would in the future take part in
hostilities against Israel,***and that every object belonging to Hamas was a legitimate target,
regardless of the actions of the persons attacked.***
ummmm, Goldstone, who is jewish and a zionist, has also said Israel used human shields.
are you saying the amount of force used in operation cast lead was justified??? they did such a great job they bombed UN buildings, refugee camps, Red Cross buildings... and tried to lie about some of it and changed their story a few times :roll:
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
And because you asked, no, I don't think that Tom Hurndall was an idiot. If that anecdote is indeed true, he's a hero. Of course, he was trying to rescue children, not a house.
isnt the official Israeli version that the IDF was clearing brush and she was killed by debris she was hiding behind from the brush clearing and deny they were demolishing a home?
all this despite IDF regulations saying "drivers of the armored personnel carriers (APCs) that accompany bulldozers are responsible for directing the drivers towards their targets, because the Caterpillar D9 bulldozers have a restricted field of vision with several blind spots."
also, witness there claim:
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource. ... otester17m
"When the bulldozer refused to stop or turn aside she climbed up onto the mound of dirt and rubble being gathered in front of it ... to look directly at the driver who kept on advancing,"
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
doesn't their religion also say it's a sin to kill or uproot a tree? and yet they destroy Palestinian grooves repeatedly....
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
this is true in some cases, but a lot of people use the bible saying their god promised that land to them so they have a right to it. if it is true that it says they won't have this land until the 2nd coming or whatever then it's more of an issue
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
I'm with outlaw, I'll go heads up with anyone on Islam...remember this- Islam is the FASTEST growing religion in the world. Perfect, probably not, but as close to it as it can be. Shit, I'll bet one day mr vedder even converts. Hahaha
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8478022.stm
Benjamin Netanyahu: Israel will never quit settlements
Monday, 25 January 2010
The Israeli prime minister has taken part in tree-planting ceremonies in the West Bank while declaring Israel will never leave those areas.
Benjamin Netanyahu said the Jewish settlements blocs would always remain part of the state of Israel.
His remarks came hours after a visit by US envoy George Mitchell who is trying to reopen peace talks between Israel and Palestinians.
A Palestinian spokesman said the comments undermined peace negotiations.
"Our message is clear: We are planting here, we will stay here, we will build here. This place will be an inseparable part of Israel for eternity", the said.
Mr Netanyahu's comments have angered Palestinians, who want a state in the West Bank, Gaza Strip and east Jerusalem.
"This is an unacceptable act that destroys all the efforts being exerted by Senator Mitchell in order to bring back the parties to the negotiating table", Palestinian spokesman Nabil Abu Rudeina told the Associated Press.
Meanwhile, in the Jordanian capital Amman, Mr Mitchell emphasised the US commitment to the creation of an independent Palestinian state.
"We intend to continue to pursue our efforts until that objective is achieved", he told AP.
US attempts to revive peace talks have stalled over the Jewish settlement issue and the Palestinians' refusal to return to peace talks.
The Palestinians insist that Israel has a long-standing commitment under an existing peace plan to stop settlement growth.
But the Israeli government says it has temporarily curbed construction as a goodwill gesture.
The two sides appear no closer even to sitting in the same room, says the BBC's Tim Franks in Jerusalem.
First off, WTF? Islam is "close to a perfect religion"? What does that mean?
outlaw,
I am not knocking Islamic theology, although I actually do have a few problems with it. I was responding to the people in this thread who were saying things like knocking down trees is inconsistent with the Jewish faith. Sure, this is accurate. Suicide bombing is inconsistent with Islam, as well. My point: Let's not pretend that the Israelis are the only people over there who act in ways that are incongruent with their supposed faith. Although while you mention it, what is your deal? You are one of the most defensive people on here when it comes to the topic of Islam. Recent convert or something?
Look, someone can understand the intent behind my points. Thanks pepe.
Anyhow, my view is that no one should be using religious doctrine to shore up land claims. And yes, that means that I do have a problem with Israelis using this as the basis for statehood. My view of Israel is largely pragmatic. Its there, its not going anywhere, and everyone over there is going to have to learn to get along. I do feel that the least the Israelis can do is stick to the borders they were originally given.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."