Israel opens dam to flood Palestinians out of their homes...

yosi

catefrances wrote:

yosi wrote:

It's complicated. I grew up in a house that was very observant, so yeah we were religious, but it was also a very intellectual household that looked at religion with a critical eye. So, for example, I grew up in a house that readily accepted that the bible was written by people, probably by multiple people over a very long period of editing. So essentially I grew up in a house that was religious, but approached religion in a very open and non-dogmatic way. For me Judaism is one of many ways of accessing the divine, but more importantly religious practice plays a significant cultural role within Jewish communities, binding everyone together through shared ritual and custom. It preserves our history through texts and traditions and holidays. I mean basically Judaism isn't really like other religions because it isn't just a religion, it's an entire culture and heritage and history. This is going to be a flawed analogy, but it's like maybe if you took the Church of England, and mixed in English history and English folk customs and like all the little cultural things that bind the English together and make them recognize themselves as authentically English. I don't know, it's kind of hard to sum up your entire identity.

thank you.

No problem.

Byrnzie

yosi wrote:

JEWISH NATIONAL HOMELAND, WHERE IS IT IF NOT ISRAEL?

yosi wrote:

My Jewishness is a national trait based in history, culture, and ethnicity, and not primarily in religion. I leave it to you to decide where your homeland is, just as I would ask others to leave that decision to me rather than to preach arrogantly about what it is and is not acceptable for me to believe.

I think this article pretty much nails it:

http://www.counterpunch.org/neumann10142009.html

A Suppressed Talk on the Israel/Palestine Conflict
Fearsome Words?

By MICHAEL NEUMANN
October 14, 2009

In April of this year I was invited by the Canada-Palestine Parliamentary Association to speak at one of their meetings. The meeting was to have taken place in the Parliament building in Ottawa, where I have spoken previously without incident. John Ivison, in the National Post newspaper, published a not particularly vicious or unbalanced attack on me, deploring the invitation. After this, without any contact with me and without seeing the content of my talk, the meeting was 'postponed'. It is now clear that the postponement was permanent.

This might seem spineless, but it involved more than the National Post article.

Ivison reports that Alykhan Velshi, director of communications for Immigration Minister, Jason Kenney, had the following to say:

"In a free country like Canada, Mr. Neumann has the right to air his noxious views. The corollary, of course, is that we can and must criticize them. Neumann's farrago of cant, conspiracy theory and hate are completely repugnant to our government, and we make no apology for saying so."

Bob Rae (former Ontario premier, former head of the New Democratic Party, now a high-ranking Liberal Party leader) is reported to have been '"surprised and disappointed" that the parliamentary group thought Mr. Neumann had something positive to contribute'.

Here is the alleged farago of cant, conspiracy theory and hate - unaltered since before the attacks. Readers may judge for themselves whether the allegations have merit.

* * *

Nationalism and the Israel-Palestine Conflict

For a brief period in the 1970s I worked in the Vancouver used book trade. I got to know a legend among booksellers - Bill Hoffer. Bill was a skilled purveyor of Canadian first editions and a great bluffer. Once I found him in earnest and extended conversation with one of 'his' authors; later I asked Bill whether the guy's stuff was any good. "I don't read it," said Bill, "I just sell it.".

Bill told me that the secret of the used book business was 'gaining moral ascendency' over the customers (whom he called 'civilians'). This meant making them feel like you were more knowledgeable about and more committed to whatever they were interested in. Intimidate the customer a bit, and your business flourishes.

The Israelis gained moral ascendancy long ago; some reputed people called 'the Arabs' never had it. This involved more than PR skills. It also involved terrible confusions about nationalism. They're the secret weapon of the Zionists and the secret weakness of 'the Arabs'.

Zionist ideology has always departed from a question: every people has its state; why not the Jews? A 'no' answer would tie you to that evil of evils, antisemitism. The rights of 'the Jewish people' meant Israel had a morally titanic 'right to exist'. It meant that the relentless expansion of Jewish settlement was, far from a mortal threat to the non-Jewish inhabitants of the area, the mere completion of the long Jewish Odyssey. It was just part of the long journey home.

As for the Palestinians, they described themselves as Arabs. This sounded like they *had* a home; it was the whole Arab world. If their 'Arab brothers' would not take them in, well, that was no fault of the Zionists. So if the Palestinians were squeezed ever further into unlivable enclaves, it was the Arabs who were to blame. The Arabs would rather dispute a tiny strip of their vast possessions than grant the Jews their little homeland.

These claims - we're just a people like any other, we just want to go home - are the last bastion of lsrael's crumbling moral stature. It is hard to imagine a more inappropriate public relations ploy. Israel's rhetoric of peoples and homelands constitute a rejection of everything we ought to have learned from the Nazi era. The confusions that sustain them not only raise racial crusading to a moral imperative; in other ways they bring unjust disrepute and demoralization on the entire so-called Arab world.

If we cannot see the harm in talk of peoples and homelands, it is because our obsession with antisemitism has blinded us to the true origins of Nazi ideology. Before the Nazis, antisemitism was prevalent all over Western Europe. There were ugly incidents, one or two outrageous miscarriages of justice, but no genocide and nothing remotely resembling the peasant pogroms of Russia and the Ukraine. As for Germany, my Jewish parents, born and raised there, staunchly maintained that it was the least antisemitic country in all of pre-Nazi Europe. Why then is the Nazi genocide attributed to antisemitism, which clearly was necessary but not sufficient to produce it? And what about the aspects of Nazi ethnic cleansing that antisemitism can't possibly explain - the genocide against the gypsies and the planned extermination of thirty million Slavs, many of whom died as 'subhumans' in inhuman prison camps?

There was an ideology sufficient to drive all those atrocities. It fairly stares us in the face. It was not devised by Hitler, but by 19th Century Romantics - poets and pseudo-historians from Scandinavia across Central Europe and down into the Italian Peninsula and the Balkans. It was not the Nazis, but Woodrow Wilson who made it a fixture of contemporary politics. This was the ideology of ethnic nationalism.

Before proceeding let me forestall a predictable objection. I intend to trace the ravages of ethnic nationalism, not by any means to make Zionists into Nazis. It is entirely unnecessary to take this false step, which would obscure rather than clarify the repellent aspects of Zionism. The offspring of ethnic nationalism are a nasty brood, but of course the Nazis were in a league of their own.

Wilson legitimized this atrocious doctrine during the peace negotiations that ended the First World War. Wilson's own secretary of state, Robert Lansing, anticipated its consequences all too accurately:

"The more I think about the President's declaration as to the right of 'self-determination,' the more convinced I am of the danger of putting such ideas into the minds of certain races. It is bound to be the basis of impossible demands on the Peace Congress and create trouble in many lands.

"What effect will it have on the Irish, the Indians, the Egyptians, and the nationalists among the Boers? Will it not breed discontent, disorder, and rebellion? Will not the Mohammedans of Syria and Palestine and possibly of Morocco and Tripoli rely on it? How can it be harmonized with Zionism, to which the President is practically committed?

"The phrase is simply loaded with dynamite. It will raise hopes which can never be realized. It will, I fear, cost thousands of lives. In the end it is bound to be discredited, to be called the dream of an idealist who failed to realize the danger until too late to check those who attempt to put the principle in force. What a calamity that the phrase was ever uttered! What misery it will cause!"

For his prescience Lansing incurred Wilson's disfavour and was forced to resign. He seemed a fussy old spoilsport, unwilling to grant peoples their rights - peoples, or, as he puts it in the language of his era, races. Could he not see the progressive implications of Wilson's doctrine? Did he not understand that the self-determination of peoples - races, ethnic groups - was a sacred human right?

Well, one person did, the person who wrote:

"If the race is in danger of being oppressed or even exterminated the question of legality is only of secondary importance. The established power may in such a case employ only those means which are recognized as 'legal'. yet the instinct of self-preservation on the part of the oppressed will always justify, to the highest degree, the employment of all possible resources.

"Only on the recognition of this principle was it possible for those struggles to be carried through, of which history furnishes magnificent examples in abundance, against foreign bondage or oppression at home.

"Human rights are above the rights of the State."

Ah, human rights, which belong not only to individuals but to 'peoples'. This champion of human rights was Adolf Hitler, writing in Mein Kampf. (Murphy translation, line 4084, Volume I, chapter iii)

Hitler 'understood' that peoples had a right to their homeland. The 'national' part of National Socialism was not civic nationalism, the nationalism that calls on French, German, American, Italian or Spanish *citizens* to cherish and defend their countries. It was ethnic nationalism, the nationalism of 'peoples', races, who did not have a homeland, or who had suffered a diaspora or historic wrongs. Hitler held that the German people had suffered both and was threatened with extinction. The Germans wanted their homeland back, all of it. Every other people had its homeland; why not the Germans?

Of course this was nonsense. The 'German people' was a bit of a fiction, and the borders of their 'homeland' were founded largely on historical myths irrelevant to contemporary rights and wrongs. But despite the most awful and obvious fulfilment of Lansing's worst nightmare, we have never abandoned Wilson's and Hitler's endorsement of ethnic nationalism. It infects even our condemnations of 'the Germans' for the Nazi era.

To condemn 'the Germans' means this: even if you'd spent the war in an orphanage because your parents had died in street battles with the Nazi black shirts, you would share in Germany's collective guilt. You share in it not because of anything you have done, but because you were, by birth, a German. We might call this 'collective responsibility', but that's just a respectable name for racial guilt, the guilt of a 'people'. From the rubble of the Nazi empire, the rubbish of ethnic nationalism rises up and takes an honoured place among our orthodoxies. From this rubbish comes the right of a fictitiously collective 'Jewish people' to a 'homeland'.

That link is explicit. The Nazi conception of a Jewish people lies at the heart of Israel's famous right of return. Don't take my word for it. Listen instead to the AMERICAN-ISRAELI COOPERATIVE ENTERPRISE (AICE), which describes itself as "a nonpartisan organization to strengthen the U.S.-Israel relationship by emphasizing the fundamentals of the alliance - the values our nations share". To explain in what sense 'Jews' have a right to return to their homeland, the AICE states that "At present, the definition is based on Hitler's Nuremberg Laws: the right of Return is granted to any individual with one Jewish grandparent, or who is married to someone with one Jewish grandparent. As a result, thousands of people with no meaningful connection to the Jewish people theoretically have the right to immigrate." AICE neglects to mention that such persons also have the actual right to immigrate, and to obtain citizenship. On the other hand, a stateless Palestinian refugee, perhaps living a precarious existence in France, has no such right of return, even if his ancestors inhabited Palestine itself for a thousand years. Palestine, it seems, is not is the 'homeland' of Palestinians, but only of the Jews.

'Jew', in other words, does not refer to those who espouse Judaism or embrace Jewish culture. 'Jew' means 'of Jewish ancestry'. In virtually every Canadian jurisdiction, ancestry is explicitly cited as a prohibited ground of discrimination. Ancestry is just a contemporary stand-in for the older notion of race and is generally used in references to racial discrimination.(**) Like skin colour, it's something you cannot change, and therefore a particularly repugnant basis for determining civic status.

For the homeland to *belong* to the Jews is for them to have *sovereignty* there. Thus Article 7(a) of Israel's Basic Law stipulates that "A candidates' list shall not participate in the elections to the Knesset if its objects or actions, expressly or by implication, include... negation of the existence of the State of Israel as the state of the Jewish people." The Jewish people, in other words, are sovereign, and hold the power of life and death over all non-Jewish inhabitants under state control. Lest this seem overdramatic, note how the Israeli ministry of justice commented on a court case in March 2009: "The State of Israel is at war with the Palestinian people, people against people, collective against collective."(***)

So a miracle appears among us. The very ideology of homelands and peoples under whose auspices the Jews were all but exterminated has become the sustaining ideology of Israel, a state devoted to Jewish ethnic sovereignty. This is why we always hear that Israel - not Israelis - has a right to exist. What matters are not the citizens of a state, but the state itself, the totemic icon of 'the Jewish people'. The fatal confusion that legitimized ethnic nationalism at the Paris Peace Conference now legitimizes Israel itself. When Zionists suggest that the French and Germans have a right to their states, they conveniently forget that this means the *inhabitants* of France and Germany, not those of some French or German *ancestry*, not a 'people' in the sense of an ethnic group. (The world was outraged when it suspected that Britain's 'patrial' immigration laws were designed to favor those of ethnically British ancestry.) But 'the Jewish people' have a right to their state, and this is supposed to be some lofty ideal. Why? Because ethnic nationalism has taken on the cloak of civic nationalism, and we are too stupid to notice. Had ethnic nationalism not shed a single drop of blood, we should still be ashamed for crediting its mystique of peoples, historical wrongs, collective vices and virtues, ineluctable destinies. Abstractions and myths that could not even gain entrance to a university's ivory towers flow daily from the lips of supposedly practical people.

Zionists bought into ethnic nationalism because it served them well. 'Arabs' bought into it too, partly as a reaction to Zionist colonization. It has not been enough to say: the Zionists wish to impose racial sovereignty on these Palestinian individuals; this in unacceptable. One must also ask: are not the Palestinians a people? is Palestine not their homeland? do they not also have a right of self-determination? But if ethnic nationalism has given the Palestinians some chance at meeting the Zionists on their own terms, it has on the whole served 'the Arabs', and therefore the Palestinians, badly.

In the Middle East, ethnic nationalism has always been greeted with polite acceptance and a certain embarrassment. The idea that all Arabic speakers shared in being Arabs began life, like most ethnic nationalisms, as an almost literary adventure. It originates in Syria, where progressive Christians developed it to counter Ottoman rule. The British, through T.E. Lawrence 'of Arabia' quickly seized on it enrol some inhabitants of the Arabian peninsula in the same cause. After 1919, the Syrian and Arabian strains of this doctrine met in uneasy coexistence. The British installed Arabian rulers in Syria/Lebanon and Jordan, not without complaints that their new subjects were 'not Arabs'! It was again the British, in the 1940s, who presided over the foundation of an 'Arab League', partly as a move to keep the French from re-establishing their position in Lebanon.

One of the League's founding members was Egypt. This might bring a smile to some of you who know the Middle East, because you have heard Egyptians make disparaging remarks about 'the Arabs' who frequent the nightclubs along the Nile, or listened to an elderly Egyptian tell you the story of just when he first discovered he was an 'Arab'. But the myth of an Arab people is more than a successful British ploy. It took deep roots when Gamel Abdel Nasser fashioned it into a ideology of resistance to Western colonialism, not to mention a convenient tool for extending Egyptian power. As an oppositional creed, everyone from Berbers who hate 'the Arabs' to Egyptians who despise them to Palestinians who feel abandoned by them will proudly claim their Arab identity against the insults and depradations of the West.

Yet all know better. There are inhabitants of the Arabian peninsula who may plausibly be called Arabs. Most other Arabic speakers have little in common with these 'Arabians', and little sympathy for their culture or traditions. As for 'Arab nationalism', no longer is there a Nasser to fashion it into a progressive force; it has withered on the vine. Yet if Arab ethnic nationalism never gained enough force to harm others, it gained enough prominence to put the so-called Arab world at the losing end of moral ascendency.

The Arabs, understood as the ensemble of Arabic speakers, are by no stretch of the imagination 'a people'. They pay a heavy price for this dubious self-description. On the one hand, it associates every Arabic speaker with every crime of every other Arabic speaker - this holds even for some whose native tongue isn't Arabic but who live in officially 'Arab' countries. It is as if the Sudanese 'Arab' militias were the armies of a 'people' encompassing the Syrians of Tyre and the Berbers of Marrakesh.

Perhaps this bad press is a mere annoyance. But there is worse. Not only the rest of the world but 'the Arabs' themselves have come think they are somehow a hopeless case: why on earth can't they unite? Why don't they do more for the Palestinians? Why the endless bickering and mistrust? 'The Arabs' in these respects seem like perennial losers incapable of self-government, markedly inferior to 'the Jews'. This impression is only partly countered by savvy remarks about an 'Arab street', always on the verge of rising up against their rotten rulers, yet never, it seems, more genuinely committed to the Palestinians than a fan club to their favorite football team. To the extent that unsustainable attempts at constructing an Arab identity have contributed to the decline of Middle East secularism, they have also contributed to the rise of fanatical religious extremists. This too has hurt the Arabic-speaking world.

Not only does Arab nationalism make 'the Arabs' look bad; it also obscures what is good. When Arab states support and sustain the Palestinians, it is much more from genuine altruism than from bogus racial solidarity. But to the extent that Arabs do not do all that is expected of them - do not take in the Palestinians, do not invite them in as fellow-Arabs, the reason is simple. The Palestinians are not fellow-Arabs. They have no home, no 'homeland' if you like, but Palestine. Wondering why their 'brother Arabs' do not to take them in makes as much sense as wondering why Northern Irish Protestants would not welcome as brothers their 'fellow Anglophones' from Dublin or Watts or the slums of Kingston, Jamaica.

The ethnic nationalism of the Zionists is a big success; that of 'the Arabs', to their credit, a big failure. Perhaps we overestimate the extent to which the West can contribute to resolving the Israel/Palestine conflict, not least because we are so dead set in regarding the 'Arab world' - which has given Israel a bloody nose on more than one occasion - as a bunch of losers. But certainly Western peacekeeping initiatives, especially from Canada and the US, are undermined by the painfully obvious efforts of our leaders not to adore the Israelis too passionately, and not to despise 'the Arabs' too thoroughly. Unfortunately 'the Arabs', now fond of their fictitious identity, are complicit in creating this bias.

This has to change, but it cannot change without abandoning the revolting principles we have so blindly espoused. That will not be easy. We are so bemused by the lovely vision of peoples determining themselves, we cannot see that ethnic self-determination is, in the real world, a quest for racial sovereignty, not a bid to enter some international folk dancing festival. We take the Zionist adoration of Israel, its commitment to racially Jewish rule of Palestine, as a paean to freedom and human rights. We look up to Israel for precisely what should make us abhor it. The 'self-determination of peoples' is a poison set in the very heart of our humanitarian ideologies. Neutralize it and Israel will lose its moral ascendency.


Michael Neumann is a professor of philosophy at a Canadian university. He is the author of What's Left: Radical Politics and the Radical Psyche and The Case Against Israel. He also contributed the essay, "What is Anti-Semitism", to CounterPunch's book, The Politics of Anti-Semitism. He can be reached at <!-- e --><a href="mailto:mneumann@live.com">mneumann@live.com</a><!-- e -->

yosi

You have a problem with Israel, period. I get it. There is no point in offering a response to this. We aren't going to agree, so I'm just going to leave it alone.

Byrnzie

yosi wrote:

You have a problem with Israel, period. I get it. There is no point in offering a response to this. We aren't going to agree, so I'm just going to leave it alone.

You mean you are incapable of offering a response to the points made in this article.

As I said above, this article nails it.

And, no, I don't have a problem with Israel per se. I have a problem with the occupation post '67. A full and immediate withdrawal to those borders is the very least the Israelis can do.

yosi

Byrnzie wrote:

yosi wrote:

You have a problem with Israel, period. I get it. There is no point in offering a response to this. We aren't going to agree, so I'm just going to leave it alone.

You mean you are incapable of offering a response to the points made in this article.

As I said above, this article nails it.

And, no, I don't have a problem with Israel per se. I have a problem with the occupation post '67. A full and immediate withdrawal to those borders is the very least the Israelis can do.

That is so disingenuous. You post an article that says that essentially the very principles underpinning Israel's legitimacy are bullshit, but then say your problem is solely with the occupation and not with Israel. I'm calling bullshit. I'm not going to engage in an argument with you about whether nationalism is a legitimate philosophy. You clearly seem to think it isn't, and I feel it is. We aren't going to agree. Give it a rest.

Byrnzie

yosi wrote:

That is so disingenuous. You post an article that says that essentially the very principles underpinning Israel's legitimacy are bullshit, but then say your problem is solely with the occupation and not with Israel. I'm calling bullshit. I'm not going to engage in an argument with you about whether nationalism is a legitimate philosophy. You clearly seem to think it isn't, and I feel it is. We aren't going to agree. Give it a rest.

'Ethnic nationalism', not 'Nationalism'. This article makes a sound point that the basic principles behind the Zionist brand of ethnic nationalism are no different to the basic principles that underpinned the ethnic nationalism of the Nazis.

And this has nothing to do with what I think. Try taking me out of the equation. I'm simply interested in the facts.

And, yes, this article makes it clear, as does his book 'The Case Against Israel', that the very principles underpinning Israel's legitimacy are bullshit. But Michael Neumann also points out in his book that he is against the occupation and that he recognizes that Israel now has a right to remain within it's 1948 - or 1949 - borders.

yosi

If you are interested in facts please provide facts and not opinions. Again, opinions are not facts just because you happen to agree with the opinion. And again I'm not going to get into an argument about nationalism with you. It is too large of a topic and there is utterly no point.

yosi

A question for all those so enraged by Palestinian deaths: where is your rage at Hamas, which fights without uniforms and from within dense civilian populations? By doing so they are cynically putting civilians directly in the line of fire. If they donned uniforms and fought along a front line, as armies do, civilians would be largely out of harms way. So where is your rage for Hamas? It would seem that you are more interested in bashing Israel than bashing those responsible for the deaths of Palestinian innocents, in which case you would be enraged at Israel and Hamas in equal measure.

Byrnzie

yosi wrote:

A question for all those so enraged by Palestinian deaths: where is your rage at Hamas, which fights without uniforms and from within dense civilian populations? By doing so they are cynically putting civilians directly in the line of fire. If they donned uniforms and fought along a front line, as armies do, civilians would be largely out of harms way. So where is your rage for Hamas? It would seem that you are more interested in bashing Israel than bashing those responsible for the deaths of Palestinian innocents, in which case you would be enraged at Israel and Hamas in equal measure.

Israel puts civilians directly in the line of fire by creating more and more illegal settlements in the midst of those whose land they've stolen.
The Israelis have a right to defend themselves, but this does not apply to the Occupied territories.

http://www.un.org/documents/ga/res/42/a42r159.htm
General Assembly
94th plenary meeting - 7 December 1987

8. Also urges all States, unilaterally and in co-operation with other States, as well as relevant United Nations organs, to contribute to the progressive elimination of the causes underlying international terrorism and to pay special attention to all situations, including colonialism, racism and situations involving mass and flagrant violations of human rights and fundamental freedoms and those involving alien domination and occupation, that may give rise to international terrorism and may endanger international peace and security;


14. Considers that nothing in the present resolution could in any way prejudice the right to self-determination, freedom and independence, as derived from the Charter of the United Nations, of peoples forcibly deprived of that right referred to in the Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations, particularly peoples under colonial and racist regimes and foreign occupation or other forms of colonial domination, nor, in accordance with the principles of the Charter and in conformity with the above-mentioned Declaration, the right of these peoples to struggle to this end and to seek and receive support;


http://www.pchrgaza.org/files/PressR/En ... -2009.html
'The State of Israel is not entitled to invoke Article 51 of the UN Charter (the right to self defense) with respect to the occupied Palestinian territory.'

yosi

That is not an answer to the question. You have simply attempted to change the topic. If you don't care about Hamas' tactics that directly endanger Palestinians then I have to ask whether you really care about the Palestinians at all or simply hate Israel.

Let me spell this out for you. Israel's rights are beside the point. Hamas knows that when they attack Israel, Israel will respond. By adopting the tactic of not wearing uniforms and fighting from within the civilian population, so that Israel cannot easily distinguish between combatants and civilians, Hamas is knowingly putting civilians directly in the line of fire. If you care at all about the lives of Palestinians how can this not enrage you?

TriumphantAngel

yosi wrote:

A question for all those so enraged by Palestinian deaths: where is your rage at Hamas, which fights without uniforms and from within dense civilian populations? By doing so they are cynically putting civilians directly in the line of fire. If they donned uniforms and fought along a front line, as armies do, civilians would be largely out of harms way. So where is your rage for Hamas? It would seem that you are more interested in bashing Israel than bashing those responsible for the deaths of Palestinian innocents, in which case you would be enraged at Israel and Hamas in equal measure.

i've have never claimed that i support Hamas, but i can assure you that i do not have equal measures of rage against them. it's not even close to comparable. perhaps i'm just more realistic than you. think about what is happening right now. Israel is brutally occupying the Palestinian people. to me, it seems like all you are doing by asking that question, is to shift attention from Israels disgusting crimes.

i wish people would stop trying to distract from the real issue by using the both sides are to blame argument. it's old, it's tired, it's a lie and it's wrong. you simply cannot blame both sides equally. there is only one side occupying the other.

you also said "Hamas are cynically putting civilians directly in the line of fire." you know what i don't get? where is all this so called "evidence" of Hamas using all those people as human shields. where is it? if so many of the casualties happen because Hamas was deliberately using civilians, where the hell is all this evidence. i'm sure amongst all the billions of dollars we give to fund the brutal occupation, Israel must have some pretty damn fancy and sophisticated cameras or spying equipment yeah? another thing that i don't understand is why Israel didn't allow reporters to enter Gaza while they carried out their massacre. wouldn't they want the rest of the world to see Hamas putting civillians directly in the line of fire? so where is it?

Hamas is not even the issue yosi. how many times have they said they'd be willing to accept a two-state solution, and said they'd be willing to fuck off the rockets, and make peace with Israel if they withdraw to the '67 borders?

stop apologizing for Israel's repulsive behaviour. stop making excuses for them. why isn't it an acceptable principle that those doing the killing should be held responsible for it?

the people that are living in Gaza are not there because they want to be there or because of Hamas. why are they there yosi? because they are trapped in their open air prison that Israel drove them to. caged in like animals and they have nowhere to go. no way out. they can't leave.

i'm getting tired of my long assed posts. i feel like i'm saying the same thing over and over. look, the only one that can fix things is Israel. and that's not gonna happen any damn time soon while the bully keeps blaming the victim.

yosi

I'm really very sorry but you can and should blame both sides, especially when we're talking about Hamas. Do you know when Hamas really started to get going with attacks against Israelis? 1994, right after the Oslo process got going. Think about that for a second. Here you have a fundamentalist Islamic organization, whose charter calls for the destruction of Israel, and they start to carry out suicide bombings at exactly the moment when a peace process is starting that had the promise at the time to bring a negotiated end to the occupation. Hamas has always done everything it can to undermine the peace process, and its reasons are plain. They do not want peace with Israel. Their charter says this explicitly, as do their leaders on an almost daily basis.

As for evidence of Hamas' cynical exploitation of the civilian population, it is copious. To begin with every human rights organization worth its salt has cited Hamas' in this regard for blame. And in point of fact Israel regularly films every target before they bomb it. I'm betting you didn't know this, but during the Gaza offensive Hamas would regularly take up positions inside civilian buildings from which they would fire on Israeli targets. Israel would then call the residents of the building to tell them to leave because they were about to return fire. Hamas would then force all the residents to go up onto the roof knowing that Israeli drones would be filming the target and that Israel would not bomb the building with the civilians standing on the rooftop. In order to combat this Israel built a special missile that had no explosive charge and would not cause damage that they could fire at the building without causing anyone harm so as to make clear to the civilians the seriousness of Israel's intention to return fire and get them to leave before they got hurt. This happened repeatedly, and was filmed repeatedly.

As for Hamas saying they would be willing to accept peace, this is simply a useful distortion of what they have actually said. What they said was that they would accept a long-term ceasefire if Israel would return to the '67 border. And at the same time Hamas' leaders keep affirming that they will never recognize Israel's legitimate right to exist. So why would Israel ever accept such a deal. They'd be giving up everything that they would have given up in the Oslo peace accords, to an organization pledged to their destruction, and they wouldn't even get a peace treaty in return. All they'd get is a cease-fire. That's just insane!

Look, we have our disagreements, but you seem like a good guy. I'm really shocked that you are throwing your hat in with Hamas here. These are really, really bad guys. I mean this is like radical-left-willful-blindness-in-the-face-of-Stalinism shit. Disagree with Israeli policy all you want. Don't cut Israel any slack. But seriously, in Hamas you're allying yourself (so to speak) with some of the worst people imaginable, or at the very least excusing their actions. I would really recommend that you find as much information as you can about these guys before so cavalierly giving them a free pass.

yosi

A few choice quotes taken directly from the Hamas charter, which is still the defining document for the Hamas movement, and which Hamas refuses on principle to ammend:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up."

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

I mean for gods sake, these guys are quoting the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion"! They are straight up anti-semites, who believe that they have a divine mandate from god to redeem Islamic land from infidels. Are these really the kind of people you want to be giving a free ride to? This is not a zero sum game. Blame Israel all you want, but maybe, in the interest of intellectual honesty, fairness, balance, decency, whatever, reserve some outrage for these guys as well.

TriumphantAngel

yosi wrote:

Look, we have our disagreements, but you seem like a good guy. I'm really shocked that you are throwing your hat in with Hamas here. These are really, really bad guys. I mean this is like radical-left-willful-blindness-in-the-face-of-Stalinism shit. Disagree with Israeli policy all you want. Don't cut Israel any slack. But seriously, in Hamas you're allying yourself (so to speak) with some of the worst people imaginable, or at the very least excusing their actions. I would really recommend that you find as much information as you can about these guys before so cavalierly giving them a free pass.

don't put words in my mouth please. the first 8 words of my post.

i've have never claimed that i support Hamas

let me make it real simple for you.

I do not support Hamas. I don't give a shit about Hamas. i care about the ordinary Palestinian people that Israel are brutally and inhumanely treating while they continue with their illegal occupation. by trying to equally apportion blame between Hamas and Israel, all you are doing is trying to shift attention from Israels disgusting crimes.

yosi

Here's what wikipedia has to say about Hamas' ceasefire offer:

The New York Times's Steven Erlanger contends that Hamas excludes the possibility of permanent reconciliation with Israel. "Since the Prophet Muhammad made a temporary hudna, or truce, with the Jews about 1,400 years ago, Hamas allows the idea. But no one in Hamas says he would make a peace treaty with Israel or permanently give up any part of Palestine.".[47] Mkhaimer Abusada, a political scientist at Al Azhar University writes that Hamas talks "of hudna, not of peace or reconciliation with Israel. They believe over time they will be strong enough to liberate all historic Palestine.”[47]

That sounds like a real willingness to make peace. :roll:

TriumphantAngel

yosi wrote:

in the interest of intellectual honesty, fairness, balance, decency, whatever, reserve some outrage for these guys as well.

stop putting words in my mouth. where do i say there is no outrage for Hamas. i don't. i said..

i've have never claimed that i support Hamas, but i can assure you that i do not have equal measures of rage against them.

TriumphantAngel

perhaps you could answer the same question that i answered (to which you clearly didn't like my response).

do you hold equal rage for Israel and Hmas?

just curious.

yosi

Yes, I suppose I am trying to shift some blame onto Hamas, but rightly so. You are outraged that 1,300 Palestinians were killed in Gaza last year. Well, Hamas shares a large part of the blame for that. That is simply the truth. All I'm saying is that for all the talk on this thread about caring for the Palestinians, all the rage is directed at only one offending party when the truth is that there are many offending parties. Another example: why is it that aside from Jordan the Arab world has kept Palestinians living in refugee camps for 60 YEARS! There were millions of refugees in the years after WWII, and many of them could not or would not go back to the homes they had left. All of these were absorbed by other countries except for the Palestinians who have been denied the right to citizenship, and have been forced to live in squalor in refugee camps. Why? Because the refugees are a politically useful tool to use against Israel. The Palestinians have gotten royally fucked by everyone. What bothers me is that only Israel gets blamed for it. Maybe Israel deserves most of the blame, and maybe it doesn't. But it doesn't deserve all of the blame, and I think it is curious that those people who claim to care about the Palestinians are entirely unwilling to address the full scope of the situation, and are only interested in raging at Israel.

yosi

TriumphantAngel wrote:

perhaps you could answer the same question that i answered (to which you clearly didn't like my response).

do you hold equal rage for Israel and Hmas?

just curious.

No I don't. I have a lot more anger for Hamas.

TriumphantAngel

yosi wrote:

those people who claim to care about the Palestinians

wow.

you have no idea. really.

it's pointless debating with you.