Israel opens dam to flood Palestinians out of their homes...

Byrnzie

TriumphantAngel wrote:

http://www.annainthemiddleeast.com/

Thanks for posting. I'd not heard of this woman before.

redrock

yosi wrote:

I am a zionist because I believe that the Jewish people should have a sovereign state in their historic homeland. Period. That's it. .

What claim do jews have to a 'historic homeland'? Is this claim based on the biblical 'land of Israel'? A lot of jews seem to think so. But this is the land supposedly promised to Abraham and his descendants by 'god'. What kind of claim is this?

yosi wrote:

What we learned from thousands of years of getting the shit kicked out of us, culminating in the Holocaust.... Jews in Germany thought the world was different then too, and then they got rounded up and shipped off to be gased. So I'm very sorry if we didn't take the same lesson away from WWII, but hey, the world looks real different when you're the one in the gas chambers.

Please... let's stop this victim mentality. Is this the only thing that 'make' the jews? Would jews be nothing without having to refer to the holocaust to justify everything? Look a bit closer at the holocaust. The jews were not the only ones. The polish people (about 2million killed), the Roma, the mentally ill/retarded, the physically disabled, non-whites, not to mention those with 'deviant sexuality'. Do they keep going on about how their people suffered and they should be treated accordingly to make amends? No they don't.

yosi

[/quote]
yosi,

when does the mandate of victimhood expire? at what point does the Nazi genocide of Europe's Jews cease to excuse the state of Israel from the demands of international law and of common humanity?[/quote]

Christ, listen, I've got shit to do, and I'm really tired of repeating myself over and over again. No excuses. No justifications. I'm trying to convey to you a mindset. An emotional reality. I'm trying to convey that there are real people on both sides of this conflict, that everyone involved in this fucked up affair is so hurt and so traumatized that they often have trouble seeing the common humanity in the other side. I got set off because quite frankly I don't think a lot of you guys really know what the fuck you're talking about. This is not some abstract subject for me. We're talking about a place I love, and people I hold dear. So maybe you don't care when someone on this thread says they live in a "satanic rogue state" or compares them to nazis, but for me that is just about the most insulting, revolting, and simply wrong thing you could possibly say. You guys sit here all day quoting Chomsky and Finkelstein and whomever, and look, you're entitled to your opinions, but it's like an echo chamber in here. You all just re-enforce each others vitriol without ever bringing in anything that approaches a different perspective. So I tried to come in and show you how an Israeli looks at this shit, that for them this isn't about grabbing land, or water, or killing their enemies, its about trying to live their lives normally without having to worry that at any time they could be killed by a terrorist or their country could be attacked by a neighbor. Israelis hate that they have to serve in the military, they hate that they can't disentangle themselves from the Palestinians, most of them would like nothing more than peace. Unfortunately years and years and years of unrelenting violence has eroded pretty much all of their trust in their neighbors, and I really can't say I blame them. You people act as if this is some sort of black and white moral issue, that just because Israel is strong and the Palestinians weak that that is all you have to know about the issue. The reason Israel has built up that army is because they've been forced to fight non-stop from the moment the state came into existence. Its like you take a puppy and then you torture the fuck out of it its entire life and force it into dog fights, and you know what happens, that puppy wins and wins and stays alive, but it becomes one mean bitch. And now you're turning around and blaming Israel for everything. Well, all of Israel's neighbors didn't have to invade the country the minute independence was declared. They didn't have to preach Israel's destruction for 50 years, cut off the country's access to trade, mass for war, invade it, send terrorists across the border to kill its citizens. Has Israel sometimes been the aggressor? Yes. Do they treat the Palestinians like shit? Yes. But what is so fucking infuriating is that you guys pretend that half the story isn't there. It's easier that way. No complexity, no nuance. Just big bad Israel killing people. Well you know what, you guys don't know shit. In this story there are no good guys and bad guys. Nobody is pure, everybody has blood on their hands. But what really gets me is that you people are so out of touch with reality that you can't even recognize practical necessity. So one last time, here's how it is. The occupation and the settlements should end. I deeply believe that. Not just because they are bad for the Palestinians, but because they are bad for Israel. But, the only practical way that can happen is if both sides can sit down and hammer out an agreement, which can only happen if the needs of both parties are met, which means first of all that both parties' needs have to be recognized. Israel will end the occupation, dismantle almost all the settlements, they will probably provide some sort of secure connection between the West Bank and Gaza, and they will probably agree to pour a lot of money into the new Palestinian state to help build functioning institutions and a stable economy. The Palestinians will have to give up violence, police their own extremists, and what's the most difficult, try to come to grips with the fact that Israel exists and isn't going away, which means that they will have to give up on the right of return. The two sides will have to agree on water and borders and a fuck-ton other shit as well. But that's what has got to happen. That is the only way this shit ends. So if you really care about what is best for the Palestinians, and not just about screaming self-righteously on some band site, you should get out there and try to push the Palestinians back to the table. I'll do the same with Israel from my end.

Ok, that was a giant waste of time, but I think I've gotten this out of my system for a while. Peace all, I don't think I'll be back for a while, at least until I get really really bored again. Have fun running your mouths in this sad little echo chamber you've constructed for yourselves. Hopefully some of you will realize eventually that there is a real world outside the web, and it tends to defy the easy black and white depictions you guys throw around on here. Peace.

yosi

redrock wrote:

yosi wrote:

I am a zionist because I believe that the Jewish people should have a sovereign state in their historic homeland. Period. That's it. .

What claim do jews have to a 'historic homeland'? Is this claim based on the biblical 'land of Israel'? A lot of jews seem to think so. But this is the land supposedly promised to Abraham and his descendants by 'god'. What kind of claim is this?

yosi wrote:

What we learned from thousands of years of getting the shit kicked out of us, culminating in the Holocaust.... Jews in Germany thought the world was different then too, and then they got rounded up and shipped off to be gased. So I'm very sorry if we didn't take the same lesson away from WWII, but hey, the world looks real different when you're the one in the gas chambers.

Please... let's stop this victim mentality. Is this the only thing that 'make' the jews? Would jews be nothing without having to refer to the holocaust to justify everything? Look a bit closer at the holocaust. The jews were not the only ones. The polish people (about 2million killed), the Roma, the mentally ill/retarded, the physically disabled, non-whites, not to mention those with 'deviant sexuality'. Do they keep going on about how their people suffered and they should be treated accordingly to make amends? No they don't.

You misunderstand. Not asking for special treatment. Saying that we finally learned not to ask for special treatment. Used to be we'd never defend ourselves, always go to the king for protection, and that often did not work out too well. Took a while but we've learned to be like every other nation on earth. People fuck with you, you fuck people up. Self-defense, self-reliance. No favors, just acceptance that we have the same right to defend ourselves and live in peace as everyone else.

redrock

yosi wrote:

You misunderstand. Not asking for special treatment..

But the jewish people are the ones that keep on bringing up the holocaust and their suffering in order to justify their demands and justify their actions.

yosi wrote:

......just acceptance that we have the same right to defend ourselves and live in peace as everyone else.

Israel is far from just defending itself.

I would still like to hear what you (or anyone claiming the same) may have to say on the 'historical homeland' bit of my post.

yosi

redrock wrote:

yosi wrote:

You misunderstand. Not asking for special treatment..

But the jewish people are the ones that keep on bringing up the holocaust and their suffering in order to justify their demands and justify their actions.

yosi wrote:

......just acceptance that we have the same right to defend ourselves and live in peace as everyone else.

Israel is far from just defending itself.

I would still like to hear what you (or anyone claiming the same) may have to say on the 'historical homeland' bit of my post.

Ok, I'll address that, but please don't attack me if you don't like my answer. The claim that Israel is the Jewish homeland arises from history, not the bible. I do not take the bible (at least the first five books (only talking Old Testament here)) to be a literal historical document, and I don't take seriously anyone who does. Leaving the bible aside entirely, and forgetting God, who/which I frankly approach with a great deal of skepticism, the Jewish people/Hebrews/Nation of Israel, whatever you want to call our ancestors, lived in and ruled the land of Israel thousands of years ago. This is a historical claim based in thousands of years of unbroken cultural transmission, historical documents from the time, and archeology. Judaism is literally the product of the land of Israel. The holidays are all keyed to the seasons and agricultural calendar in Israel. The Temple was in Jerusalem, and its ruins are still to this day the physical point to which Jews pray. Now don't misunderstand. I'm bringing in religion as being culturally important. I am not saying anything about any sort of divine right. Now the Jewish people were expelled from our land, but we have never stopped hoping to return (although there was always a small Jewish population that remained in Israel). Israel runs through our entire cultural heritage. So when I say that Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people, I am talking about a historical fact. The Jewish people was born in Israel, our entire cultural heritage revolves around Israel, and we have never stopped hoping to return to the land from which we were forcibly expelled. Notice that I have not said anything about the Palestinians, or about conflicting rights. I am not having that discussion right now, so please don't come back at me that the Palestinians were living there. I am providing a narrow answer as I see it to a narrow question.

fuck

yosi wrote:

Look I'd like to see the occupation ended also, but you don't seem to realize that Israelis are looking out for themselves. From where they are sitting they tried to end the occupation, and would still like to, but until they are convinced that doing so isn't going to put them in mortal danger they aren't going to do it. Palestinian terrorism only makes them dig in even harder.

the occupation began long before any "terrorism" and when did Israel ever try to end the occupation? I hope you don't mean Oslo, cause that was a joke.

fuck

darthvedder81 wrote:

It's funny how the progressive types get so up in arms about fighting anti-semetism but when it comes to them, you know, protecting their homeland from terrorist psychos they are told to fuck themselves.

Palestinian terrorist psychos:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_O5OuU90ru-Y/R ... /aaaab.jpg

fuck

Pepe Silvia wrote:

this was published 7 hours ago:

7 hours?! pepe, please, let's not concern ourselves with what is the PAST. 7 hours is far too long to even consider. we must look towards the future!

Pepe Silvia

yosi wrote:

Christ, listen, I've got shit to do, and I'm really tired of repeating myself over and over again. No excuses. No justifications. I'm trying to convey to you a mindset. An emotional reality. I'm trying to convey that there are real people on both sides of this conflict, that everyone involved in this fucked up affair is so hurt and so traumatized that they often have trouble seeing the common humanity in the other side. I got set off because quite frankly I don't think a lot of you guys really know what the fuck you're talking about. This is not some abstract subject for me. We're talking about a place I love, and people I hold dear. So maybe you don't care when someone on this thread says they live in a "satanic rogue state" or compares them to nazis, but for me that is just about the most insulting, revolting, and simply wrong thing you could possibly say. You guys sit here all day quoting Chomsky and Finkelstein and whomever, and look, you're entitled to your opinions, but it's like an echo chamber in here. You all just re-enforce each others vitriol without ever bringing in anything that approaches a different perspective. So I tried to come in and show you how an Israeli looks at this shit, that for them this isn't about grabbing land, or water, or killing their enemies, its about trying to live their lives normally without having to worry that at any time they could be killed by a terrorist or their country could be attacked by a neighbor. Israelis hate that they have to serve in the military, they hate that they can't disentangle themselves from the Palestinians, most of them would like nothing more than peace. Unfortunately years and years and years of unrelenting violence has eroded pretty much all of their trust in their neighbors, and I really can't say I blame them. You people act as if this is some sort of black and white moral issue, that just because Israel is strong and the Palestinians weak that that is all you have to know about the issue. The reason Israel has built up that army is because they've been forced to fight non-stop from the moment the state came into existence. Its like you take a puppy and then you torture the fuck out of it its entire life and force it into dog fights, and you know what happens, that puppy wins and wins and stays alive, but it becomes one mean bitch. And now you're turning around and blaming Israel for everything. Well, all of Israel's neighbors didn't have to invade the country the minute independence was declared. They didn't have to preach Israel's destruction for 50 years, cut off the country's access to trade, mass for war, invade it, send terrorists across the border to kill its citizens. Has Israel sometimes been the aggressor? Yes. Do they treat the Palestinians like shit? Yes. But what is so fucking infuriating is that you guys pretend that half the story isn't there. It's easier that way. No complexity, no nuance. Just big bad Israel killing people. Well you know what, you guys don't know shit. In this story there are no good guys and bad guys. Nobody is pure, everybody has blood on their hands. But what really gets me is that you people are so out of touch with reality that you can't even recognize practical necessity. So one last time, here's how it is. The occupation and the settlements should end. I deeply believe that. Not just because they are bad for the Palestinians, but because they are bad for Israel. But, the only practical way that can happen is if both sides can sit down and hammer out an agreement, which can only happen if the needs of both parties are met, which means first of all that both parties' needs have to be recognized. Israel will end the occupation, dismantle almost all the settlements, they will probably provide some sort of secure connection between the West Bank and Gaza, and they will probably agree to pour a lot of money into the new Palestinian state to help build functioning institutions and a stable economy. The Palestinians will have to give up violence, police their own extremists, and what's the most difficult, try to come to grips with the fact that Israel exists and isn't going away, which means that they will have to give up on the right of return. The two sides will have to agree on water and borders and a fuck-ton other shit as well. But that's what has got to happen. That is the only way this shit ends. So if you really care about what is best for the Palestinians, and not just about screaming self-righteously on some band site, you should get out there and try to push the Palestinians back to the table. I'll do the same with Israel from my end.

Ok, that was a giant waste of time, but I think I've gotten this out of my system for a while. Peace all, I don't think I'll be back for a while, at least until I get really really bored again. Have fun running your mouths in this sad little echo chamber you've constructed for yourselves. Hopefully some of you will realize eventually that there is a real world outside the web, and it tends to defy the easy black and white depictions you guys throw around on here. Peace.

http://www.scottishpsc.org.uk/index.php ... mid=200514

Auschwitz survivor: ‘Israel acts like Nazis’

Exclusive: Graeme Murray and Chris Watt

Published on 24 Jan 2010

One of the last remaining Auschwitz survivors has launched a blistering attack on Israel over its occupation of Palestine as he began a lecture tour of Scotland.



Dr Hajo Meyer, 86, who survived 10 months in the Nazi death camp, spoke out as his 10-day tour of the UK and Ireland – taking in three Scottish venues – got under way. His comments sparked a furious reaction from hardline Jewish lobby groups, with Dr Meyer branded an “anti-Semite” and accused of abusing his position as a Holocaust survivor.

Dr Meyer also attended hearings at Edinburgh Sheriff Court on Thursday, where five pro-Palestine campaigners are accused of racially aggravated conduct after disrupting a concert by the Jerusalem Quartet at the city’s Queen’s Hall.

Speaking as his tour got under way, Dr Meyer said there were parallels between the treatment of Jews by Germans in the Second World War and the current treatment of Palestinians by Israelis.

He said: “The Israelis tried to dehumanise the Palestinians, just like the Nazis tried to dehumanise me. Nobody should dehumanise any other and those who try to dehumanise another are not human.

“It may be that Israel is not the most cruel country in the world … but one thing I know for sure is that Israel is the world champion in pretending to be civilised and cultured.”

Dr Meyer was born in 1924 in Bielefeld, Germany. He was not allowed to attend school there after November 1938. He then fled to the Netherlands, alone. In 1944, after a year in the underground, he was caught by the Gestapo and survived 10 months at Auschwitz concentration camp in Poland.

He now lives in the Netherlands, and is the author of three books on Judaism, the Holocaust and Zionism.

Dr Meyer also insisted the definition of “anti-Semitic” had now changed, saying: “Formerly an anti-Semite was somebody who hated Jews because they were Jews and had a Jewish soul. But nowadays an anti-Semite is somebody who is hated by Jews.”

A spokesman for the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network, of which Dr Meyer is a member, said criticising Israel was “not the same” as criticising Jews.

Mick Napier , Scottish Palestine ­Solidarity Campaign chairman and one of the five demonstrators facing charges when the court case continues in March, said: “Palestinians are happy to have him as an ally in their cause.

“Hajo knows that Israel has a long history of abusing the tragic history of the Holocaust in order to suppress legitimate criticism of its own crimes.

“Especially since Gaza, people are no longer taken in by their claim that anyone that criticises Israel is anti-Semitic.”

Dr Meyer’s claims met with a furious reaction from pro-Israel groups, who branded him “a disgrace”.

Jonathan Hoffman, co-vice-chairman of the Zionist Federation, said: “I shall be telling him he is abusing his status as a survivor, and I shall be telling him that if Israel had been created 10 years earlier, millions of lives might have been saved.

“Whether he is a survivor or not, to use Nazi comparisons in relation to Israel’s policies is anti-Semitic, unquestionably.”

The tour was cynically timed, Mr Hoffman added, to coincide with Holocaust Memorial Day on January 27.

Dr Ezra Golombok, Scottish spokesman for the Israel Information Office, accused the anti-zionist lobby of “exploiting” Dr Meyer, who he described as someone “who’s got into a situation he doesn’t understand”.

“This is a propaganda exercise by Mick Napier and his friends, and nothing more. It’s preposterous to compare Israel with Nazi tactics.”

The lecture series, entitled Never Again – For Anyone, continues until January 30.

fuck

yosi wrote:

The Palestinians should give up violence, they should accept Israel's right to exist, and they should give up the right of return, which amounts to a demand that Israel commit demographic suicide. That's it. I do understand why Israel should stop expanding settlements. I said that I think there should be a complete building freeze. What I don't understand is why such a freeze has to be a precondition for negotiations. It never has been a precondition before, so why is it now?

And what about the Jewish "right of return," where any Jew, no matter what, is allowed to move to Israel and receive citizenship? Should that be abandoned by Israelis?

Palestinians will never abandon the right of return. And Israel does not have a "right" to exist. It's a country built over the blood of thousands of Palestinians. It's obvious that it is here and it's not going anywhere but what I don't understand is the obsession with this whole notion of "they must recognize our right to exist before we talk to them" whereas when someone suggests the Israelis stop expanding settlements, you think it's a weak notion.

Settlements steal land, water, etc from Palestinians. On the other hand, the Palestinians' 'recognition' thing is just a stupid ploy to further halt the peace process.

Not just that, but you're so contradictory, it's hilarious. Throughout all your posts you try to keep this "moderate" sense of being against settlements and wanting the occupation to end, and then you go and defend them. You suggest that Israel has a right to land in the West Bank, that a settlement freeze is unnecessary, etc, but the truth is it's not only illegal, but the exclusive settlements in the West Bank are also some of the main causes of this issue. a continuation of stealing land, building exclusive roads, stealing areas for irrigation, water, etc, will not lead to peace and must be abandoned before any attempts at such.

fuck

anyway, i don't have time to read all these other posts but i remember you mentioning a few times how the Israelis wanted peace during Oslo and I think you may have even mentioned that settlement expansion slowed down during these years. Just so you know, settlement expansion almost tripled during these years - it was the fastest growing rate for them, ever.

Pepe Silvia

_outlaw wrote:

anyway, i don't have time to read all these other posts but i remember you mentioning a few times how the Israelis wanted peace during Oslo and I think you may have even mentioned that settlement expansion slowed down during these years. Just so you know, settlement expansion almost tripled during these years - it was the fastest growing rate for them, ever.

bah, what meaningless jibber jabber!! you just can't comprehend that the Palestinians forced Israel to expand the settlements! ya see, they are so scared that more and more fight back after decades of dehumanizing abuse they left Israel with no other choice but to expand these for security purposes...ya see, if they just keep bringing in more Israelis after a while those pesky Palestinians will be completely displaced or leave from all the abuse. those selfish fucking Palestinians, who the fuck do they think they are!?

rebornFixer

TriumphantAngel wrote:

don't you ever insinuate again that i would perhaps become a suicide bomber and blow up kids. that is the most revolting, disgusting, thing i have EVER had directed at me. totally out of line.

rebornFixer wrote:

TriumphantAngel wrote:

i think i would too Rachel....

I'm not Rachel, but because she's not here, I'll ask instead ... You would what? Use violent resistance? If so, what form? Become a suicide bomber and blow up someone else's kids?

For the record, I made no such insinuation. I asked a question. If you aren't prepared to justify or empathize with violent disgusting acts, great. That was my point. That's the part that gets lost in all these discussions. At the end of the day, some of these actions are SICK. THIS is why I can agree with many of the points about Israel's role here, but still feel the need to pipe up every once in a while and remind people that its not 100% one-sided.

NoK

yosi wrote:

Ok, I'll address that, but please don't attack me if you don't like my answer. The claim that Israel is the Jewish homeland arises from history, not the bible. I do not take the bible (at least the first five books (only talking Old Testament here)) to be a literal historical document, and I don't take seriously anyone who does. Leaving the bible aside entirely, and forgetting God, who/which I frankly approach with a great deal of skepticism, the Jewish people/Hebrews/Nation of Israel, whatever you want to call our ancestors, lived in and ruled the land of Israel thousands of years ago. This is a historical claim based in thousands of years of unbroken cultural transmission, historical documents from the time, and archeology. Judaism is literally the product of the land of Israel. The holidays are all keyed to the seasons and agricultural calendar in Israel. The Temple was in Jerusalem, and its ruins are still to this day the physical point to which Jews pray. Now don't misunderstand. I'm bringing in religion as being culturally important. I am not saying anything about any sort of divine right. Now the Jewish people were expelled from our land, but we have never stopped hoping to return (although there was always a small Jewish population that remained in Israel). Israel runs through our entire cultural heritage. So when I say that Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people, I am talking about a historical fact. The Jewish people was born in Israel, our entire cultural heritage revolves around Israel, and we have never stopped hoping to return to the land from which we were forcibly expelled. Notice that I have not said anything about the Palestinians, or about conflicting rights. I am not having that discussion right now, so please don't come back at me that the Palestinians were living there. I am providing a narrow answer as I see it to a narrow question.

Shlomo Sand shits all over that theory. He provides a valid alternative to what you Zionists use as an argument.

In fact one thing he does say is this:

The chance that someone who lives in Hebron today and speaks Arabic is a direct descendant of a Jew in ancient times is 1000 times greater than the possibility that I am descended from a Jew, Shlomo Sand declared.

And I believe their is also genetic evidence to support his argument.

He does say this in support of Israel:

And he told them that just because Israel had begun with a great crime did not mean that it had not begun. “Even a child that was born from a rape has a right to live. ’48 was a rape. But something happened in history. We have to correct and repair a lot of things.”

Byrnzie

yosi wrote:

The claim that Israel is the Jewish homeland arises from history, not the bible. I do not take the bible (at least the first five books (only talking Old Testament here)) to be a literal historical document, and I don't take seriously anyone who does. Leaving the bible aside entirely, and forgetting God, who/which I frankly approach with a great deal of skepticism, the Jewish people/Hebrews/Nation of Israel, whatever you want to call our ancestors, lived in and ruled the land of Israel thousands of years ago. This is a historical claim based in thousands of years of unbroken cultural transmission, historical documents from the time, and archeology. Judaism is literally the product of the land of Israel. The holidays are all keyed to the seasons and agricultural calendar in Israel. The Temple was in Jerusalem, and its ruins are still to this day the physical point to which Jews pray. Now don't misunderstand. I'm bringing in religion as being culturally important. I am not saying anything about any sort of divine right. Now the Jewish people were expelled from our land, but we have never stopped hoping to return (although there was always a small Jewish population that remained in Israel). Israel runs through our entire cultural heritage. So when I say that Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people, I am talking about a historical fact. The Jewish people was born in Israel, our entire cultural heritage revolves around Israel, and we have never stopped hoping to return to the land from which we were forcibly expelled. Notice that I have not said anything about the Palestinians, or about conflicting rights. I am not having that discussion right now, so please don't come back at me that the Palestinians were living there. I am providing a narrow answer as I see it to a narrow question.

Michael Neumann:
'In the case of a Jewish claim to Palestine, the claims are themselves dubious. Here it is not necessary to have decided on a truth, which may elude researchers forever. It is enough to show that there is serious controversy, and that is easily done. One account of recent findings can be found in 'The Bible Unearthed: Archeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the origin of It's sacred Texts'. It's authors are Israel Finkelstein, director of an archeological institute at Tel Aviv Uuniversity, and Neil Asher Silberman, director of a Belgian archeological institute and a contributing editor to 'Archeology' magazine. These writers display no political agenda and repeat to the point of saturation their admiration and respect for the Bible. Asher and Silberman introduce their work with the claim that:

"The historical sage contained in the Bible - from Abraham's encounter with God and his journey to Canaan, to Moses's delverance of the children of Israe from bondage, to the rise and fall of the Kingdom of Israel and Judah - was not a miraculous revelation, but a brilliant product of the human imagination."

This is the authors' exceedingly polite way of saying that the Biblical accounts are sometimes nonsense, sometimes deliberate lies, exaggerations, and distortions. The status of the Biblical Kingdom is particularly relevant to the Jewish claims to Palestine. One of Asher and Silberman's more devastating findings is that:

"The Biblical borders of the land of Israel as outlined in the book of Joshua had seemingly assumed a sacred inviolability...the Bible pictures a stormy but basically continuous Israelite occupation of the land of Israel all the way to the Assyrian conquest. But a reexamination of the archelogical evidence...points to a period of a few decades [in which Israel existed], between around 835-800B.C.E..."

In other words, they find that the "Great" Jewish Kingdom existed in something like their fabled extent for a tiny fraction of the period traditionally alleged. Even then, their boundaries nver came close to the "Greater Israel" of contemporary Jewish fundamentalism. The rest of the time. Judah and Israel are thought to have been, for the most part, very primitive entities, devoid of literate culture or substantial administrative structure, extending to only a small, landlocked part of what is now called Palestine. The great structures of the Biblical era are, all of them, attributed to Canaanite cultures. Moreover, the inhabitants of Biblical Israel and Judah seem to have, for most of the time and for the most part, practitioners of Canaanite religions rather than Judaism, or of various syncretic cults. These "Israelites" were not, that is, "Jewish" in one important sense of the term. The authors refer to the Biblical Kingdom at it existed as a "a multi-ethnic society." The idea that such a past could validate a Jewish historical claim to Palestine is simply ludicrous, even if it could be shown - which it cannot - that today's Jews are in some legal sense, heirs to the ancient Israelite Kingdoms.'

Byrnzie

yosi wrote:

Ok, I'll address that, but please don't attack me if you don't like my answer. The claim that Israel is the Jewish homeland arises from history, not the bible. I do not take the bible (at least the first five books (only talking Old Testament here)) to be a literal historical document, and I don't take seriously anyone who does. Leaving the bible aside entirely, and forgetting God, who/which I frankly approach with a great deal of skepticism, the Jewish people/Hebrews/Nation of Israel, whatever you want to call our ancestors, lived in and ruled the land of Israel thousands of years ago. This is a historical claim based in thousands of years of unbroken cultural transmission, historical documents from the time, and archeology. Judaism is literally the product of the land of Israel. The holidays are all keyed to the seasons and agricultural calendar in Israel. The Temple was in Jerusalem, and its ruins are still to this day the physical point to which Jews pray. Now don't misunderstand. I'm bringing in religion as being culturally important. I am not saying anything about any sort of divine right. Now the Jewish people were expelled from our land, but we have never stopped hoping to return (although there was always a small Jewish population that remained in Israel). Israel runs through our entire cultural heritage. So when I say that Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people, I am talking about a historical fact. The Jewish people was born in Israel, our entire cultural heritage revolves around Israel, and we have never stopped hoping to return to the land from which we were forcibly expelled. Notice that I have not said anything about the Palestinians, or about conflicting rights. I am not having that discussion right now, so please don't come back at me that the Palestinians were living there. I am providing a narrow answer as I see it to a narrow question.

A debatable claim going back 2000 years does not entitle you to the land of Israel. It's been discovered that Vikings lived in Newfoundland in the Americas prior to Columbus landing there. Do you think that Norway therefore has a legitimate claim to ownership of the U.S?

yosi

_outlaw wrote:

yosi wrote:

The Palestinians should give up violence, they should accept Israel's right to exist, and they should give up the right of return, which amounts to a demand that Israel commit demographic suicide. That's it. I do understand why Israel should stop expanding settlements. I said that I think there should be a complete building freeze. What I don't understand is why such a freeze has to be a precondition for negotiations. It never has been a precondition before, so why is it now?

And what about the Jewish "right of return," where any Jew, no matter what, is allowed to move to Israel and receive citizenship? Should that be abandoned by Israelis?

Palestinians will never abandon the right of return. And Israel does not have a "right" to exist. It's a country built over the blood of thousands of Palestinians. It's obvious that it is here and it's not going anywhere but what I don't understand is the obsession with this whole notion of "they must recognize our right to exist before we talk to them" whereas when someone suggests the Israelis stop expanding settlements, you think it's a weak notion.

Settlements steal land, water, etc from Palestinians. On the other hand, the Palestinians' 'recognition' thing is just a stupid ploy to further halt the peace process.

Not just that, but you're so contradictory, it's hilarious. Throughout all your posts you try to keep this "moderate" sense of being against settlements and wanting the occupation to end, and then you go and defend them. You suggest that Israel has a right to land in the West Bank, that a settlement freeze is unnecessary, etc, but the truth is it's not only illegal, but the exclusive settlements in the West Bank are also some of the main causes of this issue. a continuation of stealing land, building exclusive roads, stealing areas for irrigation, water, etc, will not lead to peace and must be abandoned before any attempts at such.

If the occupation is the primary cause of this conflict, the "ur" cause if you will, then please explain to me why there was terrorism against Israel before there was an occupation. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is just part of the larger Israeli-Arab conflict, which long predates the occupation, though since 1973 it has become the central front. Israelis know there own history. They know that they were under constant attack before there was ever an occupation. Why should they believe that anything has changed?

yosi

I'm not Rachel, but because she's not here, I'll ask instead ... You would what? Use violent resistance? If so, what form? Become a suicide bomber and blow up someone else's kids?[/quote][/quote]

For the record, I made no such insinuation. I asked a question. If you aren't prepared to justify or empathize with violent disgusting acts, great. That was my point. That's the part that gets lost in all these discussions. At the end of the day, some of these actions are SICK. THIS is why I can agree with many of the points about Israel's role here, but still feel the need to pipe up every once in a while and remind people that its not 100% one-sided.[/quote]

Thank you. A sane voice.

Byrnzie

NoK wrote:

And he told them that just because Israel had begun with a great crime did not mean that it had not begun. “Even a child that was born from a rape has a right to live. ’48 was a rape. But something happened in history. We have to correct and repair a lot of things.”

True. Israel isn't going anywhere. But why compound one crime with another crime. The occupation of the West Bank and the blockade of Gaza have to end.