Criticizing the US in Haiti

Dirtie_Frank

So since no one else is talking about it. Why is Venezuela and France calling US support to Haiti occupation. Would they rather out support go away? The US is there augmenting UN forces and Haiti police forces. I guess we can do nothing right.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2010/01/18/2010-01-18_hugo_chavez.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/18/AR2010011801850.html

philthehip

I think alot of nations will see the US helping as back handed support. They will look for the financial benefits that America may or may not be able to draw from this disaster. The countries foreign policies and its questionable food aid programme will fuel other countries to criticise the US. On a personal level Im very happy that you are all helping.

phillypjhead

I think it's awful generous of the American people that we are allowing our currency to be further devalued in order to assist Haiti. I mean, we are just going to print the $100 million we promised, right? We sure don't have it sitting around...

Cosmo

porchmonkey77 wrote:

I think it's awful generous of the American people that we are allowing our currency to be further devalued in order to assist Haiti. I mean, we are just going to print the $100 million we promised, right? We sure don't have it sitting around...

...
So.. are you saying that the United States can't afford to help?

Anon

I am. But there are a lot of things we can't afford, that isn't stopping us anyway.

phillypjhead

I'm saying the government doesn't have the money, not that our country doesn't. I am proud that our country will be the biggest private donors to Haiti. I am just lamenting the fact that the government doesn't have an extra $100 million and that they will therefore print the money which will further devalue the dollar. I heard today that we are projected to donate about $10 billion privately, which would be a few billion more than we gave to our own citizens for Katrina. America is the greatest force for good that the world has ever seen.

gimmesometruth27

porchmonkey77 wrote:

I'm saying the government doesn't have the money, not that our country doesn't. I am proud that our country will be the biggest private donors to Haiti. I am just lamenting the fact that the government doesn't have an extra $100 million and that they will therefore print the money which will further devalue the dollar. I heard today that we are projected to donate about $10 billion privately, which would be a few billion more than we gave to our own citizens for Katrina. America is the greatest force for good that the world has ever seen.

the government and the country having the money is the exact same thing. federal money is federal money...private donations are private donations...

america is the greatest force for good that the world has ever seen????

ahem, iraq...

cough...afghanistan

cough cough...gitmo torture...

hiroshima, nagasaki, tacit support of isreal,

raping the environment and polluting the environment,

etc, etc, etc...

WaveCameCrashin

are gimmie and brynzie the same person ??

WaveCameCrashin

Dirtie_Frank wrote:

So since no one else is talking about it. Why is Venezuela and France calling US support to Haiti occupation. Would they rather out support go away? The US is there augmenting UN forces and Haiti police forces. I guess we can do nothing right.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2010/01/18/2010-01-18_hugo_chavez.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/18/AR2010011801850.html

Fuck Hugo Chavez.. Who do you think would help the most if Venezuela if they ever had a natural diaster ? We would of course. What the hell does he expect us to do ? just air drop everything and leave ? There is complete lawlessness right now in Hati. There has to be some order,and How come no one is talking about all the children that are being adopted by us and the Dutch.

gimmesometruth27

prfctlefts wrote:

are gimmie and brynzie the same person ??

no.

i'm sorry that you think that the US deserves a fucking medal every time we do what is EXPECTED of us...do you get a bonus at your job for showing up on time and doing the work you are supposed to do? no i don't, because i am EXPECTED to do those things. if you go above and beyond expectations then you reap the rewards. same thing, if you are fucking up at work you would hear about it in a review. same thing here, we are fucking up other things in this world while we are helping in Haiti. you have to be able to think critically of your country. most intellectuals do that and most dolts are incapable of that. you must see the bad with the good and try to improve the bad while maintaining the good.

people on here that think like you go on and on about all the good we do yet ignore the bad. while you all are busy patting yourself on the back there are a bunch of other countries that hate you for it...for taking credit for things you are EXPECTED to do...

dunkman

porchmonkey77 wrote:

America is the greatest force for good that the world has ever seen.

then the world is blind.

Jeanwah

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

porchmonkey77 wrote:

I'm saying the government doesn't have the money, not that our country doesn't. I am proud that our country will be the biggest private donors to Haiti. I am just lamenting the fact that the government doesn't have an extra $100 million and that they will therefore print the money which will further devalue the dollar. I heard today that we are projected to donate about $10 billion privately, which would be a few billion more than we gave to our own citizens for Katrina. America is the greatest force for good that the world has ever seen.

the government and the country having the money is the exact same thing. federal money is federal money...private donations are private donations...

america is the greatest force for good that the world has ever seen????

ahem, iraq...

cough...afghanistan

cough cough...gitmo torture...

hiroshima, nagasaki, tacit support of isreal,

raping the environment and polluting the environment,

etc, etc, etc...

I agree, but considering how much Americans give to charity individually and leaving gov't out of the picture, we are quite generous. But to say that America is the "greatest force of good"? That's laughable.

aerial

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

prfctlefts wrote:

are gimmie and brynzie the same person ??

no.

i'm sorry that you think that the US deserves a fucking medal every time we do what is EXPECTED of us...do you get a bonus at your job for showing up on time and doing the work you are supposed to do? no i don't, because i am EXPECTED to do those things. if you go above and beyond expectations then you reap the rewards. same thing, if you are fucking up at work you would hear about it in a review. same thing here, we are fucking up other things in this world while we are helping in Haiti. you have to be able to think critically of your country. most intellectuals do that and most dolts are incapable of that. you must see the bad with the good and try to improve the bad while maintaining the good.

people on here that think like you go on and on about all the good we do yet ignore the bad. while you all are busy patting yourself on the back there are a bunch of other countries that hate you for it...for taking credit for things you are EXPECTED to do...

Why is America EXPECTED to help? Is it because we always come to the aid of the less fortunate....and we are THE country that is always called upon for funds from EVERY other country in time of disaster....is because we help EVERY time we are asked? Now it is EXPECTED from us?

nuffingman

I don't care who coordinates the rescue effort as long as someone helps those poor sods.

gimmesometruth27

aerial wrote:

Why is America EXPECTED to help? Is it because we always come to the aid of the less fortunate....and we are THE country that is always called upon for funds from EVERY other country in time of disaster....is because we help EVERY time we are asked? Now it is EXPECTED from us?

let me ask you one question...is america a leader in this world? my answer would be yes. i am sure you would agree. in times of tragedy and emergency leaders are expected to step up to the plate, put their money where their mouth is, and by god get things done to help. we do it every time, i am PROUD of that part of my country. one of the few things i am proud of here lately. now you are going to sit back and question it when your country has the chance to step up and do some good??? if you were in haiti, what is the closest large economic and military and humanitarian superpower to you? its the usa. it would be fucking stupid to ask for greenland to help and not ask the us which is so close and has the resourses and can get there quickly...

the way i see it, we have two choices as a leader in this world. we can either be a benevolent leader and hlep those in need. or we can be dicks and say "you guys work it out yourselves, we can't be bothered with you problems"...i prefer the former, but its clear some would prefer the latter....

aerial

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

aerial wrote:

Why is America EXPECTED to help? Is it because we always come to the aid of the less fortunate....and we are THE country that is always called upon for funds from EVERY other country in time of disaster....is because we help EVERY time we are asked? Now it is EXPECTED from us?

let me ask you one question...is america a leader in this world? my answer would be yes. i am sure you would agree. in times of tragedy and emergency leaders are expected to step up to the plate, put their money where their mouth is, and by god get things done to help. we do it every time, i am PROUD of that part of my country. one of the few things i am proud of here lately. now you are going to sit back and question it when your country has the chance to step up and do some good??? if you were in haiti, what is the closest large economic and military and humanitarian superpower to you? its the usa. it would be fucking stupid to ask for greenland to help and not ask the us which is so close and has the resourses and can get there quickly...

the way i see it, we have two choices as a leader in this world. we can either be a benevolent leader and hlep those in need. or we can be dicks and say "you guys work it out yourselves, we can't be bothered with you problems"...i prefer the former, but its clear some would prefer the latter....

i'm sorry that you think that the US deserves a fucking medal every time we do what is EXPECTED of us.

My point is some are so fast to put down America for being at war and anything else they disagree with (And that’s okay be it there opinion)....but Americans deserve no praise for running to the aid of ALL COUNTRIES in need ?....as we give aid for natural disasters or putting our American solders in harms way for some other countries freedom..... because it is expected of us?.......Why is it EXPECTED from us and not seen as a KIND and GENEROUS offer to help? By the way I am for helping......

Drowned Out

I love how that Washington Post article gives the impression that the US and France have had no involvement in Haiti since before WWII.
Canada and the US orchestrated a fucking coup there just five years ago!
And we wonder why people would questions the motives behind sending 7000 armed troops? Even if those motives ARE 100% innocent and humanitarian, the criticizm is a direct result of past foreign policy in the entire region (world). It’s not like the US and her allies have never misled the public about their intentions while dispatching their armies. That said...at this point, I see no reason to believe there are ulterior motives.

Dirtie_Frank

I do not believe the US is occupying, but I do believe that maybe the UN should take control of Haiti. Haiti was in bad shape before this happened the government was corrupt and doing very little to help its people. I think that this earthquake might be a blessing in disguise, if Haiti can be rebuilt to a country that can flourish.

gimmesometruth27

i'm not so sure i would ever classify estimates ranging from 40,000 - 200,000 dead a blessing of any sort. more like a tragedy of epic proportions...

rebornFixer

The media is of course skewed to some extent, but its still worth mentioning that many Haitians appear to welcome the aid, including the idea of U.S. troops providing security. One man was even quoted as saying that "the Americans can stay longer than in 1915 this time"!
At the end of the day, 1)the U.S., like it or not, remains a world leader, 2) many Americans are extremely charitable people, 3) the U.S. government, while obviously not free of ulterior motive in places like the Middle East, nevertheless has a pretty solid track record of disaster relief in other nations, and 4) the medical and humanitarian aid is needed pretty urgently. It all adds up to helping out.
Someone mentioned Chavez, who is an irritating hypocrite whose contributions to the world's diplomatic stage are dubious at best. As for the French, sure, goad the U.S. into helping. And then step up yourself and join the party.

Dirtie_Frank

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

i'm not so sure i would ever classify estimates ranging from 40,000 - 200,000 dead a blessing of any sort. more like a tragedy of epic proportions...

I am just saying that this tragedy can turn into something positive. Unless you have a problem with that. :roll:

gimmesometruth27

aerial wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

aerial wrote:

Why is America EXPECTED to help? Is it because we always come to the aid of the less fortunate....and we are THE country that is always called upon for funds from EVERY other country in time of disaster....is because we help EVERY time we are asked? Now it is EXPECTED from us?

let me ask you one question...is america a leader in this world? my answer would be yes. i am sure you would agree. in times of tragedy and emergency leaders are expected to step up to the plate, put their money where their mouth is, and by god get things done to help. we do it every time, i am PROUD of that part of my country. one of the few things i am proud of here lately. now you are going to sit back and question it when your country has the chance to step up and do some good??? if you were in haiti, what is the closest large economic and military and humanitarian superpower to you? its the usa. it would be fucking stupid to ask for greenland to help and not ask the us which is so close and has the resourses and can get there quickly...

the way i see it, we have two choices as a leader in this world. we can either be a benevolent leader and hlep those in need. or we can be dicks and say "you guys work it out yourselves, we can't be bothered with you problems"...i prefer the former, but its clear some would prefer the latter....

i'm sorry that you think that the US deserves a fucking medal every time we do what is EXPECTED of us.

My point is some are so fast to put down America for being at war and anything else they disagree with (And that’s okay be it there opinion)....but Americans deserve no praise for running to the aid of ALL COUNTRIES in need ?....as we give aid for natural disasters or putting our American solders in harms way for some other countries freedom..... because it is expected of us?.......Why is it EXPECTED from us and not seen as a KIND and GENEROUS offer to help? By the way I am for helping......

i asked if you want a medal. there is a difference between "kind and generous" and doing the right thing. leaders do the right thing. we are leaders in this world, so this help is expected of us. we should respond without expecting praise or a "thank you america" and just do our best to help....you should not expect the world to bow down to the almighty generous USA. we know our place in the world and i personally do not feel the need to place us on a pedestal because we help out in times of disaster. its just something we have always done..if you are lacking in praise maybe try some daily affirmations.

Drowned Out

Has anyone here read the Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism by Naomi Klein?

gimmesometruth27

Dirtie_Frank wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

i'm not so sure i would ever classify estimates ranging from 40,000 - 200,000 dead a blessing of any sort. more like a tragedy of epic proportions...

I am just saying that this tragedy can turn into something positive. Unless you have a problem with that. :roll:

give me an example of a time in history where 40,000 to 200,000 dead people has had a positive outcome...i can't think of any....

Dirtie_Frank

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

Dirtie_Frank wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

i'm not so sure i would ever classify estimates ranging from 40,000 - 200,000 dead a blessing of any sort. more like a tragedy of epic proportions...

I am just saying that this tragedy can turn into something positive. Unless you have a problem with that. :roll:

give me an example of a time in history where 40,000 to 200,000 dead people has had a positive outcome...i can't think of any....

Why are you always so negative. Not hugged enough as a child? I was merely saying that even before the Earthquake Haiti was a horrible place. Now with a stronger UN presence in the country maybe they can rebuild the country to a place where people would want to live. Where people are not eating dirt cookies, like I have read they would do. I wish it could have happend before but it did not. It will not happen overnight but yes I think there can be a positive found in this tragedy. I am sorry all you can see is the negativity.

WaveCameCrashin

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

prfctlefts wrote:

are gimmie and brynzie the same person ??

no.

i'm sorry that you think that the US deserves a fucking medal every time we do what is EXPECTED of us...do you get a bonus at your job for showing up on time and doing the work you are supposed to do? no i don't, because i am EXPECTED to do those things. if you go above and beyond expectations then you reap the rewards. same thing, if you are fucking up at work you would hear about it in a review. same thing here, we are fucking up other things in this world while we are helping in Haiti. you have to be able to think critically of your country. most intellectuals do that and most dolts are incapable of that. you must see the bad with the good and try to improve the bad while maintaining the good.

people on here that think like you go on and on about all the good we do yet ignore the bad. while you all are busy patting yourself on the back there are a bunch of other countries that hate you for it...for taking credit for things you are EXPECTED to do...

There you go again putting words in my mouth. When did I ever say we deserve a medal ? :roll: I know we have made mistakes but unlike you and others I don't dwell on it 24/7. Just because I don't talk about it or join in on your anti american rhtoric doesn't mean im not engaged or aware of what's going on in the world.What good does it do? Personally I think you like bashing your country because you think it's the cool liberal thing to do.When have you ever had one positive thing to say about your country or anything for that matter? Im proud of my country. Especially when we are able to do things for other countries in need. It makes me feel good to be an American and like Im part of something. It makes me proud of other countries when they are able to help also. I get really tired of people like you always seeing the negative. It's like damn if we do . Damn if we don't. No matter what we do it will never be enough. When have we ever not helped a country in need due to a natrual disaster in the last 50 years? You have to also realize that we can't always fix everyones problems either.
And why are we politicizing a natural disaster anyway? Everyone needs to put there money where there mouth is or heart is and donate what you can.

gimmesometruth27

Dirtie_Frank wrote:

Why are you always so negative. Not hugged enough as a child? I was merely saying that even before the Earthquake Haiti was a horrible place. Now with a stronger UN presence in the country maybe they can rebuild the country to a place where people would want to live. Where people are not eating dirt cookies, like I have read they would do. I wish it could have happend before but it did not. It will not happen overnight but yes I think there can be a positive found in this tragedy. I am sorry all you can see is the negativity.

i'm not being negative, i am being realistic. you wish it happened sooner? sooner than when? there is no good time for this to happen. it is total devestation of the entire fucking country. bodies piled in the streets, elderly sitting in the sun starving and dehydrated waiting for the hand of death, people crushed under tons of concrete and steel rubble, people having arms and legs amputated due to massive crush injuries, not enough clean water or food, dysentery and typhus and death are in the air. what a miserable, terrible existance, waiting to be rescued or for death which ever finds you first...

now are you going to answer my question? when has 40,000 to 200,000 dead ever had a positive outcome???

if not, i think i proved my point...

Dirtie_Frank

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

Dirtie_Frank wrote:

Why are you always so negative. Not hugged enough as a child? I was merely saying that even before the Earthquake Haiti was a horrible place. Now with a stronger UN presence in the country maybe they can rebuild the country to a place where people would want to live. Where people are not eating dirt cookies, like I have read they would do. I wish it could have happend before but it did not. It will not happen overnight but yes I think there can be a positive found in this tragedy. I am sorry all you can see is the negativity.

i'm not being negative, i am being realistic. you wish it happened sooner? sooner than when? there is no good time for this to happen. it is total devestation of the entire fucking country. bodies piled in the streets, elderly sitting in the sun starving and dehydrated waiting for the hand of death, people crushed under tons of concrete and steel rubble, people having arms and legs amputated due to massive crush injuries, not enough clean water or food, dysentery and typhus and death are in the air. what a miserable, terrible existance, waiting to be rescued or for death which ever finds you first...

now are you going to answer my question? when has 40,000 to 200,000 dead ever had a positive outcome???

if not, i think i proved my point...

I wished the rebuilding happened sooner, not the earthquake. :roll:

Dirtie_Frank

Positive from a tragedy...Well the testing the Nazi's did on the Jewish people brought many medical advances. So there is a tragedy that all these people were tested on and killed but from there we have a lot of medical advances.

WaveCameCrashin

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

Dirtie_Frank wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

i'm not so sure i would ever classify estimates ranging from 40,000 - 200,000 dead a blessing of any sort. more like a tragedy of epic proportions...

I am just saying that this tragedy can turn into something positive. Unless you have a problem with that. :roll:

give me an example of a time in history where 40,000 to 200,000 dead people has had a positive outcome...i can't think of any....

That's because you choose not to. You can always turn a negative into a positve. Just an example: What about all the children that are being adopted from Hati ? If it weren't for that earthquake they would still be sitting there hopeless. Now thanks to the Dutch and us these kids will have a chance in life and not have live in poverty for the rest of their lives.

gimmesometruth27

prfctlefts wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

prfctlefts wrote:

are gimmie and brynzie the same person ??

no.

i'm sorry that you think that the US deserves a fucking medal every time we do what is EXPECTED of us...do you get a bonus at your job for showing up on time and doing the work you are supposed to do? no i don't, because i am EXPECTED to do those things. if you go above and beyond expectations then you reap the rewards. same thing, if you are fucking up at work you would hear about it in a review. same thing here, we are fucking up other things in this world while we are helping in Haiti. you have to be able to think critically of your country. most intellectuals do that and most dolts are incapable of that. you must see the bad with the good and try to improve the bad while maintaining the good.

people on here that think like you go on and on about all the good we do yet ignore the bad. while you all are busy patting yourself on the back there are a bunch of other countries that hate you for it...for taking credit for things you are EXPECTED to do...

There you go again putting words in my mouth. When did I ever say we deserve a medal ? :roll: I know we have made mistakes but unlike you and others I don't dwell on it 24/7. Just because I don't talk about it or join in on your anti american rhtoric doesn't mean im not engaged or aware of what's going on in the world What good does it do? Personally I think you like bashing your country because you think it's the col liberal thing to do.When have you ever had one positive thing to say about your country or anything for that matter. Im proud of my country. Especially when we are able to do things for other countries in need it makes me feel good to be an American and like Im part of something. It makes me proud of other countries when they are able to help to. I get really tired of people like you always seeing the negative. It's like damn if we do . Damn if we don't. No matter what we do it will never be enough. When have we ever not helped a country in need due to a natrual disaster in the last 50 years? You have to also realize that we can't always fix everyones problems either.
And why are we politicizing a natural disaster anyway? Everyone needs to put there money where there mouth is or heart is and donate what you can.

i'm just going to reply to a few of your points...

1. when have i said someting positive? maybe in a post earlier today where i said i am proud of my country's response...

2. its not the cool liberal thing to do by bashing my country. i see things from all sides. something someone like you can not do. if you could you would not fall on your damn sword every time america does something bad. i have never ever seen you criticize your country for anything it has ever done. none of the international law and treaty violations, not the bullshit wars, not the suspension of habeas corpus and extraordinary rendition, nothing.. not once. instead you make excuses for things like the war in iraq and gitmo and abu ghraib, etc...

3. in the last 50 years what have we not helped with?? that's easy. the big quakes in iran and china. if you paid attention like you have said you do you would not need to ask me that.

but if you want to see america through rose colored glasses continue to do so, and continue to make yourself look like a dumbass on the message board be my guest.... :roll: