I just picked up _____ on vinyl!

Tim Simmons

All I know is the 100+ page thread in 4 days at Hoffman is fucking delicious. 

Tim Simmons

mrussel1 said:

Is this criticism about MOFI broadly, or only about the One Steps?  I ask because I know Brothers in Arms is all digital and I bet that's one of the best selling MOFI's ever. 

Mainly the one steps, but its everything. 

Tim Simmons

Its funny that everyone has to say their pieces only to inevitably land on the reasonable conclusion, "Well they sound fantastic, I just wish they were transparent about the process". God bless these bored old white dudes.

pjpjpaul

Tim Simmons said:

Its funny that everyone has to say their pieces only to inevitably land on the reasonable conclusion, "Well they sound fantastic, I just wish they were transparent about the process". God bless these bored old white dudes.

Exactly. If something sounds good it sounds good. Does it matter if a company mislead consumers and should they be held accountable for that? Yes, of course. It's just a crazy situation. I'm having fun just watching it all unfold.

Tim Simmons

The worst thing mofi deserves is a tsk tsk. 

brianlux

As a never-bored old white dude, here's my 2 cents:
Funny thing is, I've been reading criticisms about various MOFI releases on Discogs for years.  Not all, of course, but several.  But then, whole thing is a moot point for me anyway because, to the best of my knowledge, I don't own a single MOFI LP. 

I do have 6 Analogue Productions LPs (all Beach Boys), and they sound great but they were affordable at the time I got them.  Nowadays though, with the price of audiophile pressings being what they currently are,  I would probably not buy them today.   But then, I'm lucky enough to have a lot of early pressings of various LPs, a lot of them from the pre-digital LP era, and they're generally terrific sounding records made back when any poor working stiff could afford them.  The whole vinyl things is another world these days.

tempo_n_groove

brianlux said:

As a never-bored old white dude, here's my 2 cents:
Funny thing is, I've been reading criticisms about various MOFI releases on Discogs for years.  Not all, of course, but several.  But then, whole thing is a moot point for me anyway because, to the best of my knowledge, I don't own a single MOFI LP. 

I do have 6 Analogue Productions LPs (all Beach Boys), and they sound great but they were affordable at the time I got them.  Nowadays though, with the price of audiophile pressings being what they currently are,  I would probably not buy them today.   But then, I'm lucky enough to have a lot of early pressings of various LPs, a lot of them from the pre-digital LP era, and they're generally terrific sounding records made back when any poor working stiff could afford them.  The whole vinyl things is another world these days.

Recording in analog I thought was simple?  Why the hell does it cost so much now?  Price gimmick?

mrussel1

tempo_n_groove said:

brianlux said:

As a never-bored old white dude, here's my 2 cents:
Funny thing is, I've been reading criticisms about various MOFI releases on Discogs for years.  Not all, of course, but several.  But then, whole thing is a moot point for me anyway because, to the best of my knowledge, I don't own a single MOFI LP. 

I do have 6 Analogue Productions LPs (all Beach Boys), and they sound great but they were affordable at the time I got them.  Nowadays though, with the price of audiophile pressings being what they currently are,  I would probably not buy them today.   But then, I'm lucky enough to have a lot of early pressings of various LPs, a lot of them from the pre-digital LP era, and they're generally terrific sounding records made back when any poor working stiff could afford them.  The whole vinyl things is another world these days.

Recording in analog I thought was simple?  Why the hell does it cost so much now?  Price gimmick?

Well it's not that it cost so much more, but recording, mixing,  editing in digital format is just so cheap. Plus you don't have to store it.  Think about the infamous fire that destroyed all of those masters.  Never happen in digital. 

pjpjpaul

Tim Simmons said:

The worst thing mofi deserves is a tsk tsk. 

They could just say what the actual process is for each record and be more transparent about it. If there is a digital step for a record just say so and let us decide if we want that record or not. I don't get the cloak and dagger approach but I'm sure if they're more upfront about it that their sales may suffer as a consequence due to the fact that so many are seeking out true AAA sourced vinyl. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out. I'll keep buying some of their stuff when I can afford to because ea h one of their releases that I have sound great and I don't really care that much about source for most releases as long as the quality is there. 

tempo_n_groove

mrussel1 said:

tempo_n_groove said:

brianlux said:

As a never-bored old white dude, here's my 2 cents:
Funny thing is, I've been reading criticisms about various MOFI releases on Discogs for years.  Not all, of course, but several.  But then, whole thing is a moot point for me anyway because, to the best of my knowledge, I don't own a single MOFI LP. 

I do have 6 Analogue Productions LPs (all Beach Boys), and they sound great but they were affordable at the time I got them.  Nowadays though, with the price of audiophile pressings being what they currently are,  I would probably not buy them today.   But then, I'm lucky enough to have a lot of early pressings of various LPs, a lot of them from the pre-digital LP era, and they're generally terrific sounding records made back when any poor working stiff could afford them.  The whole vinyl things is another world these days.

Recording in analog I thought was simple?  Why the hell does it cost so much now?  Price gimmick?

Well it's not that it cost so much more, but recording, mixing,  editing in digital format is just so cheap. Plus you don't have to store it.  Think about the infamous fire that destroyed all of those masters.  Never happen in digital. 

Gotcha.  Can't you use a DAC or some shit to convert it back though?  I thought that was the purpose of those things...

brianlux

tempo_n_groove said:

brianlux said:

As a never-bored old white dude, here's my 2 cents:
Funny thing is, I've been reading criticisms about various MOFI releases on Discogs for years.  Not all, of course, but several.  But then, whole thing is a moot point for me anyway because, to the best of my knowledge, I don't own a single MOFI LP. 

I do have 6 Analogue Productions LPs (all Beach Boys), and they sound great but they were affordable at the time I got them.  Nowadays though, with the price of audiophile pressings being what they currently are,  I would probably not buy them today.   But then, I'm lucky enough to have a lot of early pressings of various LPs, a lot of them from the pre-digital LP era, and they're generally terrific sounding records made back when any poor working stiff could afford them.  The whole vinyl things is another world these days.

Recording in analog I thought was simple?  Why the hell does it cost so much now?  Price gimmick?

Apparently part of the reason is the cost of tape these days. 
In a thread he started on his own site, mastering engineer Steve Hoffman said, "Blowing a lacquer is common these days now that the old-timers are retiring, sadly."  Unless a new generation of engineers and others involved in the process of making analogue records start to show up, I'm wondering if this seeming return to analogue vinyl will be short lived?  What with all the younger generation folks being into downloading and other digital formats (including listening to music on an iPhone which really has me perplexed), I'm a bit surprised this has even happened at all.  I honestly don't know how much of it is simply a fad, a distraction, or impulse buying or what. 

Tim Simmons

I mean, it didn't go away when people wrote it off as dead (1990-2010). It will stick around. Yeah, maybe audiophile releases and stuff cut before the 1980s may be more highly valued because people can't cut like that anymore, but its not going anywhere anymore.


I mean, I hope people like Hoffman, Grey, and Grundman are taking on apprentices. Because if not, they are just as much to blame. There are plenty of people cutting records, if you don't like their work, teach them how to be better.

mrussel1

tempo_n_groove said:

mrussel1 said:

tempo_n_groove said:

brianlux said:

As a never-bored old white dude, here's my 2 cents:
Funny thing is, I've been reading criticisms about various MOFI releases on Discogs for years.  Not all, of course, but several.  But then, whole thing is a moot point for me anyway because, to the best of my knowledge, I don't own a single MOFI LP. 

I do have 6 Analogue Productions LPs (all Beach Boys), and they sound great but they were affordable at the time I got them.  Nowadays though, with the price of audiophile pressings being what they currently are,  I would probably not buy them today.   But then, I'm lucky enough to have a lot of early pressings of various LPs, a lot of them from the pre-digital LP era, and they're generally terrific sounding records made back when any poor working stiff could afford them.  The whole vinyl things is another world these days.

Recording in analog I thought was simple?  Why the hell does it cost so much now?  Price gimmick?

Well it's not that it cost so much more, but recording, mixing,  editing in digital format is just so cheap. Plus you don't have to store it.  Think about the infamous fire that destroyed all of those masters.  Never happen in digital. 

Gotcha.  Can't you use a DAC or some shit to convert it back though?  I thought that was the purpose of those things...

Well once it is digital, it will never be AAA again. The chain is corrupted.

A DAC is always used when dealing with digital music.  You can't hear digital music, it's only bytes of data.  The DAC is what converts those bytes into something audible.  Your phone has a DAC, your CD player, your pc, etc.  

mrussel1

Tim Simmons said:

I mean, it didn't go away when people wrote it off as dead (1990-2010). It will stick around. Yeah, maybe audiophile releases and stuff cut before the 1980s may be more highly valued because people can't cut like that anymore, but its not going anywhere anymore.


I mean, I hope people like Hoffman, Grey, and Grundman are taking on apprentices. Because if not, they are just as much to blame. There are plenty of people cutting records, if you don't like their work, teach them how to be better.

Ryan K Smith is pretty young.  He looks early 40's.  I think he's every bit as good as Hoffman and BG. Maybe....a step behind KPG.  But he'll be the one to do the good stuff once KPG retires. 

Cropduster-80

Doesn’t mofi already do digital? I thought they differentiate by the “silver label” as I assumed those were digital as that’s when the original master tapes aren’t available.

 I’m assume they could do a one step from a silver label release. As one step is just how they are pressing it, not the source material I thought 

tempo_n_groove

Tim Simmons said:

I mean, it didn't go away when people wrote it off as dead (1990-2010). It will stick around. Yeah, maybe audiophile releases and stuff cut before the 1980s may be more highly valued because people can't cut like that anymore, but its not going anywhere anymore.


I mean, I hope people like Hoffman, Grey, and Grundman are taking on apprentices. Because if not, they are just as much to blame. There are plenty of people cutting records, if you don't like their work, teach them how to be better.

You have to have an ear for it though.  There are producers/engineers that have a shit ear.  You wonder what they were trying to get out of some things...

I'd love to to do that as I believe I have an ear for it.

mrussel1

Cropduster-80 said:

Doesn’t mofi already do digital? I thought they differentiate by the “silver label” as I assumed those were digital as that’s when the original master tapes aren’t available.

 I’m assume they could do a one step from a silver label release. As one step is just how they are pressing it, not the source material I thought 

I think One Step means master tape right to the lacquer.  But the lacquer is only going to have limited stamping ability before it degrades. AP claims to limit its stamping to 1000 presses.  So that's the point of the criticism above.  How can you have a One Step and do 40k pressings without having to go back to the master tape over and over again, which would degrade it?

If I'm wrong in my assessment, someone correct me. 

And yes, some MOFI is known digital.  I brought up the Brothers in Arms which was never recorded to tape, but has been pressed a bunch of times by MOFI.  

Tim Simmons

That is correct and the issue. 

Cropduster-80

mrussel1 said:

Cropduster-80 said:

Doesn’t mofi already do digital? I thought they differentiate by the “silver label” as I assumed those were digital as that’s when the original master tapes aren’t available.

 I’m assume they could do a one step from a silver label release. As one step is just how they are pressing it, not the source material I thought 

I think One Step means master tape right to the lacquer.  But the lacquer is only going to have limited stamping ability before it degrades. AP claims to limit its stamping to 1000 presses.  So that's the point of the criticism above.  How can you have a One Step and do 40k pressings without having to go back to the master tape over and over again, which would degrade it?

If I'm wrong in my assessment, someone correct me. 

And yes, some MOFI is known digital.  I brought up the Brothers in Arms which was never recorded to tape, but has been pressed a bunch of times by MOFI.  

I didn’t know that you had to go back to the masters every time.  So yeah that sounds suspicious if you are pressing 40k records and have to go back to the tapes 40 times 

I haven’t ever seen a mofi release with a production number that high either. Certainly not one step 

mrussel1

Cropduster-80 said:

mrussel1 said:

Cropduster-80 said:

Doesn’t mofi already do digital? I thought they differentiate by the “silver label” as I assumed those were digital as that’s when the original master tapes aren’t available.

 I’m assume they could do a one step from a silver label release. As one step is just how they are pressing it, not the source material I thought 

I think One Step means master tape right to the lacquer.  But the lacquer is only going to have limited stamping ability before it degrades. AP claims to limit its stamping to 1000 presses.  So that's the point of the criticism above.  How can you have a One Step and do 40k pressings without having to go back to the master tape over and over again, which would degrade it?

If I'm wrong in my assessment, someone correct me. 

And yes, some MOFI is known digital.  I brought up the Brothers in Arms which was never recorded to tape, but has been pressed a bunch of times by MOFI.  

I didn’t know that you had to go back to the masters every time.  So yeah that sounds suspicious if you are pressing 40k records and have to go back to the tapes 40 times 

I haven’t ever seen a mofi release with a production number that high either. Certainly not one step 

To be clear, I'm not saying MOFI limits their stamping to 1k.  AP does on certain releases and that's a claim to fame, or something that people value.  I don't know how many MOFI tries to get out of each stamper, but certainly it isn't going to be 20 or 30k.