god question

dunkman

he still stands wrote:

You think that there is no god(s) because of the evil or tragedy in the world... right?

Then why not think there IS god(s) because of all the good in the world?

tragedy, such as tsunamis, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions are natural tragedies. I think they are geological tragedies. But a religious person would have to admit they are tragedies made by god as he made the planet. Ergo my belief is that religious people worship a god who created a planet that kills people for no reason. No reason .. other than 'mysterious ways'... which is a U2 song... not an answer.

because good is a human emotion... just as hatred is... and if we have 'free will' to be evil, angry, bitter and twisted to our fellow man then 'free will' also gives us 'good'... good is not a god-given thing... its an emotion we can be capable of, or not if we choose.

I know an atheist guy who gave 3.2million to charity, gave up his 6 bedroom house to cancer patients, never swore, smoked, got drunk or took drugs. He was married, had 2 kids, was carbon neutral... he was the goodiest of the good... he's still going to hell though... apparently. Never believed in god. So he's going to hell. Thats nice.

he still stands

dunkman wrote:

tragedy, such as tsunamis, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions are natural tragedies. I think they are geological tragedies. But a religious person would have to admit they are tragedies made by god as he made the planet. Ergo my belief is that religious people worship a god who created a planet that kills people for no reason. No reason .. other than 'mysterious ways'... which is a U2 song... not an answer.

ok so we are talking about "natural" or "geological" phenomena. My point works the same - or better:

You believe there is no God because of all the evil in the world? ("tsunamis, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions)
Then why don't you believe in God because of all the good in the world? (our planet is the only planet known to support LIFE, it is a perfect environment with the exact set of precise conditions needed for life to exist)

dunkman wrote:

I know an atheist guy who gave 3.2million to charity, gave up his 6 bedroom house to cancer patients, never swore, smoked, got drunk or took drugs. He was married, had 2 kids, was carbon neutral... he was the goodiest of the good... he's still going to hell though... apparently. Never believed in god. So he's going to hell. Thats nice.

haha. I don't know what I "believe" but evidence points me to thinking there is a higher being or creator. And you know what? I am an ASSHOLE! I smoke, drink, rarely do charity, have done my share of drugs, definitely am not carbon neutral, etc etc. Although I am trying to be a better person and help others as much as I can.

I don't think anyone said that an atheist is definitely going to "hell." (whatever that is). I'm merely using logic to prove that your insistence that there IS NO GOD is just as silly as a religious person being insistent that THERE IS A GOD! Like I said previously, none of us know. If you tell me you do know about the existence or non-existence of God(s), you are either lying or are full of shit. But your point is duly noted... actions speak louder than 'beliefs.' I agree with that.

HeyWayne

It's human nature to try and make sense of things we cannot explain - that's where religion fills the hole.

Sometimes, things just happen.

dunkman

he still stands wrote:

ok so we are talking about "natural" or "geological" phenomena. My point works the same - or better:

You believe there is no God because of all the evil in the world? ("tsunamis, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions)
Then why don't you believe in God because of all the good in the world? (our planet is the only planet known to support LIFE, it is a perfect environment with the exact set of precise conditions needed for life to exist)

no, i dont believe in a god because of a varying multitude of reasons. but one of those reasons is that his planet design is highly flawed and kills his own creations. which i find quite sick. but earthquakes, tsunamis, etc arent 'evil'... they are naturally occurring disasters.

Am i really supposed to believe in a god because of the good in the world? is that all the evidence of a god that you have? good... an emotive feeling?

i help old ladies cross the street... it's a good thing. I'll still go to hell though.

he still stands wrote:

haha. I don't know what I "believe" but evidence points me to thinking there is a higher being or creator. And you know what? I am an ASSHOLE! I smoke, drink, rarely do charity, have done my share of drugs, definitely am not carbon neutral, etc etc. Although I am trying to be a better person and help others as much as I can.

I don't think anyone said that an atheist is definitely going to "hell." (whatever that is). I'm merely using logic to prove that your insistence that there IS NO GOD is just as silly as a religious person being insistent that THERE IS A GOD! Like I said previously, none of us know. If you tell me you do know about the existence or non-existence of God(s), you are either lying or are full of shit. But your point is duly noted... actions speak louder than 'beliefs.' I agree with that.

i see no evidence for a god. not one shred. i see plenty of evidence against there being a god. i'm ok with that.

religious people have told me on this very forum that a child-murdering, wife beating, pedophile rapist who truly repents and asks god to save him on his deathbed 4 hours before he sits on the electric chair will gain access to heaven... my charitable, honest, loving, helping old ladies across the street atheist friend is going to hell... because he doesn't believe in god.

i believe those are the 'rules'

he still stands

dunkman wrote:

no, i dont believe in a god because of a varying multitude of reasons. but one of those reasons is that his planet design is highly flawed and kills his own creations. which i find quite sick. but earthquakes, tsunamis, etc arent 'evil'... they are naturally occurring disasters.

Am i really supposed to believe in a god because of the good in the world? is that all the evidence of a god that you have? good... an emotive feeling?

I don't think you get it. For every natural disaster there are millions of examples of how the earth is an incredibly unique life-sustaining world. Logically, you cannot say 'there is no god' or 'there is a god' for either the natural disasters or the millions of variables that have to be aligned for life to exist. Both arguments are not rational because they are offsetting.

dunkman wrote:

i see no evidence for a god. not one shred. i see plenty of evidence against there being a god. i'm ok with that.

religious people have told me on this very forum that a child-murdering, wife beating, pedophile rapist who truly repents and asks god to save him on his deathbed 4 hours before he sits on the electric chair will gain access to heaven... my charitable, honest, loving, helping old ladies across the street atheist friend is going to hell... because he doesn't believe in god.

i believe those are the 'rules'

Look, I am not trying to make you believe in God. Heck, I don't 'believe' in God but I am 'optimistic' that there is God(s). I was just pointing out that your argument for No God is not rational (as explained above and many times in previous posts).

I'm sorry that you don't see any evidence for the existence of God. I've been there. Remember, inside everyone of us there is a Thinker and a Prover. (this is basic psychology here) If you don't believe you will find any evidence of God, you will undoubtedly find evidence that "Proves" he doesn't exist (i.e. tsunamis). For me, I am optimistic there is a God and I find evidence that "Proves" it all the time (sex, beer, my wife and son, etc). It is up to you in regards to how you look at it all; what you think your mind will prove.

And who on this forum told you that last part about who gets access to "heaven and hell?" That may be the most ignorant thing I've ever read...

pandora

[q
i help old ladies cross the street... it's a good thing. I'll still go to hell though.

he still stands wrote:

haha. I don't know what I "believe" but evidence points me to thinking there is a higher being or creator. And you know what? I am an ASSHOLE! I smoke, drink, rarely do charity, have done my share of drugs, definitely am not carbon neutral, etc etc. Although I am trying to be a better person and help others as much as I can.

I don't think anyone said that an atheist is definitely going to "hell." (whatever that is). I'm merely using logic to prove that your insistence that there IS NO GOD is just as silly as a religious person being insistent that THERE IS A GOD! Like I said previously, none of us know. If you tell me you do know about the existence or non-existence of God(s), you are either lying or are full of shit. But your point is duly noted... actions speak louder than 'beliefs.' I agree with that.

i see no evidence for a god. not one shred. i see plenty of evidence against there being a god. i'm ok with that.

religious people have told me on this very forum that a child-murdering, wife beating, pedophile rapist who truly repents and asks god to save him on his deathbed 4 hours before he sits on the electric chair will gain access to heaven... my charitable, honest, loving, helping old ladies across the street atheist friend is going to hell... because he doesn't believe in god.

i believe those are the 'rules'[/quote]
its these stupid rules made by man that seem to cause so much debate. We are confusing being a spiritual person, believing in a supreme being to those people that follow a religion and its "laws" created by man which are flawed by greed and power and seem so ridiculous in the here and now. I think you asked for a theological explanation for earthly tragedies and you got some good responses one in particular tracing historical events but again it became the debate of who believes and who doesn't. I thank God everyday that I believe and that is not to find any fault with those that don't. It comes down to need. I need God- I love the fact he walks with me and guides me and believe me I feel him. For those who do not need him it doesn't mean he is not there.

Byrnzie

dunkman wrote:

you do realise that entire families have been obliterated and that thousands of people have no home and are in danger of starvation, dysentery, etc..

what good will it do them when they have lost 4 of their kids for me to send them £10?

when 'we' reach out to them? where's god? he could have reached out to them before his planet killed them... as we apparently have 'free will' then any good shown to these victims is as a result of this 'free will' and therefore nothing to do with god.

Where's Ahnimus when we need him?

decides2dream

dunkman wrote:

no, i dont believe in a god because of a varying multitude of reasons. but one of those reasons is that his planet design is highly flawed and kills his own creations. which i find quite sick. but earthquakes, tsunamis, etc arent 'evil'... they are naturally occurring disasters.

hey dunk, i have a question for you, semi-related tho not actually about god. do you truly believe the 'design' of the planet is flawed? god or no god, you believe this? as you say, 'naturally occurring disasters'.....well, they are natural, no? so why exactly are they flawed? just b/c something makes something else cease, doesn't actually mean it is a design flaw. as we all well know, everything lives and everything dies...it is the cycle of life, of the planet, the universe, etc. life is change. so i just don't necessarily see any of these things as being flaws, just simply, a part of life. they are tragic for those who suffer and/or die....but it is still life.


as to the god argument, i think you are making a belief in god and a belief in man-made religion, mutually exclusive, which they are not. you are also lumping ALL the world's religions, basically within the confines of strict christian beliefs b/c there are many other religions who do not follow the 'rules' you mention and even more people of faith who follow no hard-and-fast religion at all. just sayin'.

HeyWayne

I think the term "naturally occuring disaster" is flawed in iteslf. We only call it a disaster because it effects things we (humans) hold dear. There's no design, no alterior motive, it's just how things are.

It may just be that these "disasters" are actually a part of how the world/planet is made up and how it works.

dunkman

decides2dream wrote:

hey dunk, i have a question for you, semi-related tho not actually about god. do you truly believe the 'design' of the planet is flawed? god or no god, you believe this? as you say, 'naturally occurring disasters'.....well, they are natural, no? so why exactly are they flawed? just b/c something makes something else cease, doesn't actually mean it is a design flaw. as we all well know, everything lives and everything dies...it is the cycle of life, of the planet, the universe, etc. life is change. so i just don't necessarily see any of these things as being flaws, just simply, a part of life. they are tragic for those who suffer and/or die....but it is still life.

its flawed if you believe that god made it. all of those people died in a tsunami because of the fragility od his planet. thats the flaw. of course its part of the circle of life... but they would all have died eventually anyway... so why bother wiping them out via a wave of water that only occurred as a result of a flaw within the earths plates.

decides2dream wrote:

as to the god argument, i think you are making a belief in god and a belief in man-made religion, mutually exclusive, which they are not. you are also lumping ALL the world's religions, basically within the confines of strict christian beliefs b/c there are many other religions who do not follow the 'rules' you mention and even more people of faith who follow no hard-and-fast religion at all. just sayin'.

well this thread has, like the glorious plates that hold the earth together, moved around a bit... my original question was "Can i ask a religious person their explanation for why their god allows his creation, i.e. the planet, to kill his other creations... via the method of Tsunami?"... to which i do not think i've received a straight answer... only ambiguities and wooly theories.

Also, there are many religions and faiths, as you've pointed out... so someone has to be wrong...
I will now quote the great Billy Connolly... " It seems to me that Islam and Christianity and Judaism all have the same god, and he's telling them all different things.”

decides2dream

HeyWayne wrote:

I think the term "naturally occuring disaster" is flawed in iteslf. We only call it a disaster because it effects things we (humans) hold dear. There's no design, no alterior motive, it's just how things are.

It may just be that these "disasters" are actually a part of how the world/planet is made up and how it works.

that is exactly my point.
even wiping out just about every living thing in it's path....again, seems to be all part of the planet's 'grand design'...all a part of life renewal. it is very species-centric to say that what is disastrous for us is disastrous for the planet, or is flawed....it just IS. personally, i find it absolutely amazing and full of awe. no, i would not desire to be in the path of any of these things, but i do believe they have purpose, overall, for the life cycle of the planet.



dunk, even those who may believe in a god, again...does not mean the design would be flawed. one can have a belief in god and STILL see/believe that these natural occurances are all part of the grand design, all a part of life.....again, not be so species-centric. you seem to be looking at it specifically from quite a fundamentalist christian lens, and that does not encompass all the world's religions nor all faith in god(s). that is all. as to someone having to be 'wrong'....well of course, we're human....

anyhoo, i am agnostic at best, but i do respect those with faith, or none at all....all a-ok by me.


btw, as to this:

"to which i do not think i've received a straight answer... only ambiguities and wooly theories."

isn't that exactly what you expected, desired even...to 'prove' your pov? anyone with a true religious faith will not, cannot, explain any of it. that is why it is FAITH. also, most who have this faith, feel no need to explain or understad it all...b/c most realize, it is beyond their comprehension why, and they accept that...due to their faith. this in no way proves/disporves anything....b/c such things are beliefs, not scientific proofs. it just seems a way to try and diminish one's belief system. spirituality, belief in god(s) simply operates within an entirely different thought process than science.

soulsinging

dunkman wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

hey dunk, i have a question for you, semi-related tho not actually about god. do you truly believe the 'design' of the planet is flawed? god or no god, you believe this? as you say, 'naturally occurring disasters'.....well, they are natural, no? so why exactly are they flawed? just b/c something makes something else cease, doesn't actually mean it is a design flaw. as we all well know, everything lives and everything dies...it is the cycle of life, of the planet, the universe, etc. life is change. so i just don't necessarily see any of these things as being flaws, just simply, a part of life. they are tragic for those who suffer and/or die....but it is still life.

its flawed if you believe that god made it. all of those people died in a tsunami because of the fragility od his planet. thats the flaw. of course its part of the circle of life... but they would all have died eventually anyway... so why bother wiping them out via a wave of water that only occurred as a result of a flaw within the earths plates.

Just to clarify, it's only flawed if you believe that an all-powerful and all-loving God made it. It can be perfect and made by God if you believe "god" means something other than the Christian God, as many here have pointed out (natural processes, human life is not sacred or more meaningful than other life, etc). The problem comes when people try to convince me/you that God is all-powerful, thinks humans are special, loves them above all, and then creates a world that causes them to suffer enormous tragedy, pain, and loss.

dimitrispearljam

its so sad for those people,,and ther isnt an easy and 100% answer to your question Dunk

Ms. Haiku

dunkman wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/8281616.stm

Can i ask a religious person their explanation for why their god allows his creation, i.e. the planet, to kill his other creations... via the method of Tsunami?

I'm genuinely interested to see if there is a theological explanation as to why innocent people would be killed by an earthquake causing a huge tsunami.

I understand that things like murder, rape, etc happen as a consequence of 'free will'... but this seems arbitrary... random... not as a result of man itself.

I'm actually religious in my own mind, but I don't think of Tsunamis as a religious issue. I guess some people think major disasters like Noah's flood are a direct result of an angry God . . . and some would see the Tsunami as one too (?) I guess as I don't I can't answer your question.

It looks like a geology/oceanography question as opposed to a religious question. I don't think a scientist would consider this arbitrary.

Jeanwah

dunkman wrote:

... my original question was "Can i ask a religious person their explanation for why their god allows his creation, i.e. the planet, to kill his other creations... via the method of Tsunami?"... to which i do not think i've received a straight answer... only ambiguities and wooly theories.

Also, there are many religions and faiths, as you've pointed out... so someone has to be wrong...
I will now quote the great Billy Connolly... " It seems to me that Islam and Christianity and Judaism all have the same god, and he's telling them all different things.”

dimitrispearljam wrote:

its so sad for those people,and there isnt an easy and 100% answer to your question Dunk

And there's your answer dunk. There is no one answer to your question. No one's wrong...no one's exactly right either.