god question

dunkman

OffHeGoes29 wrote:

Is this another "I hate God because my life sucks" thread?

no.

my life doesnt suck in any way... but i'm feeling kinda sad for those poor fucker in Samoa at the moment.

DeLukin

dunkman wrote:

this doesnt seem odd?

Not sure what you're after here. I think pandora's responses were well written and spot on. Does it seem odd? Maybe, but if you believe in God you know that it's not about full disclosure. Faith is all about trusting in spite of not having all the answers. So I don't know why it happened, but I'm not sure I need to know why. To me, it's less about searching for answers or laying blame and more about what a tragedy like that means from a human perspective. Believer or non-believer, if your heart doesn't break for those people you have bigger problems than what you do on Sunday morning.

dunkman

DeLukin wrote:

dunkman wrote:

this doesnt seem odd?

Not sure what you're after here. I think pandora's responses were well written and spot on. Does it seem odd? Maybe, but if you believe in God you know that it's not about full disclosure. Faith is all about trusting in spite of not having all the answers. So I don't know why it happened, but I'm not sure I need to know why. To me, it's less about searching for answers or laying blame and more about what a tragedy like that means from a human perspective. Believer or non-believer, if your heart doesn't break for those people you have bigger problems than what you do on Sunday morning.

i know why it happened.

What causes a tsunami?... A tsunami is a large ocean wave that is caused by sudden motion on the ocean floor. This sudden motion could be an earthquake, a powerful volcanic eruption, or an underwater landslide. The impact of a large meteorite could also cause a tsunami. Tsunamis travel across the open ocean at great speeds and build into large deadly waves in the shallow water of a shoreline. This large deadly wave then wipes out hundreds of innocent lives including other animals who were just quietly minding their own business.


and yet you dont need to know why? if this happened off the east coast of america then i'm sure people might need to know why a bit more.

DeLukin

dunkman wrote:

i know why it happened.

Yea, I was coming at it from a theological perspective, per your initial inquiry ("I'm genuinely interested to see if there is a theological explanation as to why innocent people would be killed by an earthquake causing a huge tsunami"). Are you really genuinely interested in the debate? Cause it kind of seems like you're just in it to shoot everyone with an opposing view down...

he still stands

You think that there is no god(s) because of the evil or tragedy in the world... right?

Then why not think there IS god(s) because of all the good in the world?

he still stands

Atheistic Fundamentalism seems to be replacing Theistic Fundamentalism in this country... And it is just as (or more) dogmatic, fanatical and crusading.

Wherever you are in space-time, that’s your reality. It’s not anybody else’s reality and there’s no sense trying to sell it to anybody else, or force it on them.

hmm am I being hypocritical? :P I'll defend myself by saying, I don't know!!! and none of this is true!!!

know1

dunkman wrote:

thanks, but no thanks. that in no way answered my initial question of why would a compassionate, loving, omnipotent god allow his creation of earth, clearly flawed at best, to kill random innocents.

god created this earth apparently. this same earth that through a design fault has managed to kill 200 people on a tiny set of islands in the middle of the ocean.

this doesnt seem odd?

I attempted to answer it on the first page.

My answer was in the form of question. The question is, what if our human, earthly lives are really just a fraction of our existence and dying isn't an end?

Furthermore, EVERYONE dies, so God essentially set up our lives to have an earthly death. When you view it from that perspective, wondering about the particular method of death seems a little strange to me. In other words, why does someone who was killed by a tsunami provoke anger toward God while someone who dies of old age does not? They both died.

soulsinging

decides2dream wrote:

none of us will "know" until we are dead, that's a certainty. tho if you don't believe in an afterlife (and even if ya do) and indeed one never comes, well yea...SOL, you'll never know, as you won't have after-death consciousness to know it was all BS.

I'm just pissed that I'm not going to be able to gloat and lord it over the believers when it turns out I'm right about the lack of afterlife

soulsinging

he still stands wrote:

Atheistic Fundamentalism seems to be replacing Theistic Fundamentalism in this country... And it is just as (or more) dogmatic, fanatical and crusading.

That is such an absurd statement I don't even know how to respond. You know the percentage of Americans that are atheist? It's miniscule, and most are afraid to admit it. Even the most "red" states said they would vote for a Muslim before an atheist. If there's any crusading or fanaticism it's solely a result of being tired of the condescension or fear from religious folks any time you meet one. Like the pathetic fuckers over the porch that keep posting about how they hope/pray every day that Ed finds Jesus and gets saved. Get the fuck over yourselves.

decides2dream

soulsinging wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

none of us will "know" until we are dead, that's a certainty. tho if you don't believe in an afterlife (and even if ya do) and indeed one never comes, well yea...SOL, you'll never know, as you won't have after-death consciousness to know it was all BS.

I'm just pissed that I'm not going to be able to gloat and lord it over the believers when it turns out I'm right about the lack of afterlife

given your penchant for gloating....i don't think you'd be ending up in the same place as those believers in any case. pack your shorts and some sunscreen, i hear it gets pretty hot there. and hey, given that more than likely....i'll get there first, hopefully we'll have a whole rockin' section of friends....

he still stands

soulsinging wrote:

he still stands wrote:

Atheistic Fundamentalism seems to be replacing Theistic Fundamentalism in this country... And it is just as (or more) dogmatic, fanatical and crusading.

That is such an absurd statement I don't even know how to respond. You know the percentage of Americans that are atheist? It's miniscule, and most are afraid to admit it. Even the most "red" states said they would vote for a Muslim before an atheist. If there's any crusading or fanaticism it's solely a result of being tired of the condescension or fear from religious folks any time you meet one. Like the pathetic fuckers over the porch that keep posting about how they hope/pray every day that Ed finds Jesus and gets saved. Get the fuck over yourselves.

Absurd eh? Never did I mention there are droves of atheists out there, but the ones that I do meet are probably more fanatical and dogmatic about their non-beliefs than the Theist is about their beliefs.

I hardly ever have a believer try to talk me into a conversation about God (other than the rare Jehovah's Witness and the door)... but am very frequently cornered by an Atheist who wants to talk me into his version of reality and is ABSOLUTELY SURE there is no such thing as "god(s)." Both the atheist and the theist are constrained into a narrow tunnel of reality and have equally structured and archaic thought processes.

Belief is the death of intelligence... but so is a strict adherance to non-belief.

soulsinging

he still stands wrote:

soulsinging wrote:

he still stands wrote:

Atheistic Fundamentalism seems to be replacing Theistic Fundamentalism in this country... And it is just as (or more) dogmatic, fanatical and crusading.

That is such an absurd statement I don't even know how to respond. You know the percentage of Americans that are atheist? It's miniscule, and most are afraid to admit it. Even the most "red" states said they would vote for a Muslim before an atheist. If there's any crusading or fanaticism it's solely a result of being tired of the condescension or fear from religious folks any time you meet one. Like the pathetic fuckers over the porch that keep posting about how they hope/pray every day that Ed finds Jesus and gets saved. Get the fuck over yourselves.

Absurd eh? Never did I mention there are droves of atheists out there, but the ones that I do meet are probably more fanatical and dogmatic about their non-beliefs than the Theist is about their beliefs.

I hardly ever have a believer try to talk me into a conversation about God (other than the rare Jehovah's Witness and the door)... but am very frequently cornered by an Atheist who wants to talk me into his version of reality and is ABSOLUTELY SURE there is no such thing as "god(s)." Both the atheist and the theist are constrained into a narrow tunnel of reality and have equally structured and archaic thought processes.

Belief is the death of intelligence... but so is a strict adherance to non-belief.

I guess the word 'replaced' threw me... atheists are a long way from replacing fundamentalists. But I'm still not convinced by your argument. I've never been cornered by an atheist in casual convo in my life, but I've had many Christians preach at me. Regardless, I also wonder... how many atheists have you met that never said a word to you about it? You probably have no idea, because the base assumption in our society is that unless someone says otherwise, they are a Christian.

soulsinging

decides2dream wrote:

soulsinging wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

none of us will "know" until we are dead, that's a certainty. tho if you don't believe in an afterlife (and even if ya do) and indeed one never comes, well yea...SOL, you'll never know, as you won't have after-death consciousness to know it was all BS.

I'm just pissed that I'm not going to be able to gloat and lord it over the believers when it turns out I'm right about the lack of afterlife

given your penchant for gloating....i don't think you'd be ending up in the same place as those believers in any case. pack your shorts and some sunscreen, i hear it gets pretty hot there. and hey, given that more than likely....i'll get there first, hopefully we'll have a whole rockin' section of friends....

The problem with your scenario is that you're talking about us meeting up in an afterlife, which would only happen if I am wrong. So the premise is flawed

he still stands

soulsinging wrote:

I guess the word 'replaced' threw me... atheists are a long way from replacing fundamentalists. But I'm still not convinced by your argument. I've never been cornered by an atheist in casual convo in my life, but I've had many Christians preach at me. Regardless, I also wonder... how many atheists have you met that never said a word to you about it? You probably have no idea, because the base assumption in our society is that unless someone says otherwise, they are a Christian.

Ok maybe I'm making a generalization (I don't know...) but my friends, people who I meet at the pub, etc, who are atheist laugh at the notion of the existence of a God, so I am assuming most atheists have the same notion that "they have it all figured out" and think that Theists are some sort of lower life form. It is all very hypocritical becaue their strict belief in science and rationality (and fanatisicm against all other views of reality) is just as dogmatic as religion.

I am of the opinion that everyone has their own view of reality, and every single viewpoint is just as relevant as any other. I hate it when others try to shove their version of reality down my throat... whether it be God(s), politics, morality, whatever. I don't know what anything "is" I only know what it "seems to be" in my present location in space/time. I just wish people would stop pretending that they have it all figured out and come clean. Dissolve that ego dammit!

decides2dream

soulsinging wrote:

The problem with your scenario is that you're talking about us meeting up in an afterlife, which would only happen if I am wrong. So the premise is flawed

the only flaw....is missing the humor.

he still stands wrote:

Ok maybe I'm making a generalization (I don't know...) but my friends, people who I meet at the pub, etc, who are atheist laugh at the notion of the existence of a God, so I am assuming most atheists have the same notion that "they have it all figured out" and think that Theists are some sort of lower life form. It is all very hypocritical becaue their strict belief in science and rationality (and fanatisicm against all other views of reality) is just as dogmatic as religion.

I am of the opinion that everyone has their own view of reality, and every single viewpoint is just as relevant as any other. I hate it when others try to shove their version of reality down my throat... whether it be God(s), politics, morality, whatever. I don't know what anything "is" I only know what it "seems to be" in my present location in space/time. I just wish people would stop pretending that they have it all figured out and come clean. Dissolve that ego dammit!

excellent post, and i do agree.....some atheists, right along with theists can both be extremely dogmatic in their approach. too many are of their own beliefs being the only right way, whereas in reality, there are myriad of ways to approach living, and your right way may different very much from mine.....but we find what works for us. perhaps it's a backlash against years of religion ruling humanity, and it still is quite a divisive factor...but absolutely, there has to be a better way of balance/respect of all views...

live and let live. such a simple concept, yet seemingly complex to near impossible for humanity to pull off.

soulsinging

he still stands wrote:

soulsinging wrote:

I guess the word 'replaced' threw me... atheists are a long way from replacing fundamentalists. But I'm still not convinced by your argument. I've never been cornered by an atheist in casual convo in my life, but I've had many Christians preach at me. Regardless, I also wonder... how many atheists have you met that never said a word to you about it? You probably have no idea, because the base assumption in our society is that unless someone says otherwise, they are a Christian.

Ok maybe I'm making a generalization (I don't know...) but my friends, people who I meet at the pub, etc, who are atheist laugh at the notion of the existence of a God, so I am assuming most atheists have the same notion that "they have it all figured out" and think that Theists are some sort of lower life form. It is all very hypocritical becaue their strict belief in science and rationality (and fanatisicm against all other views of reality) is just as dogmatic as religion.

I am of the opinion that everyone has their own view of reality, and every single viewpoint is just as relevant as any other. I hate it when others try to shove their version of reality down my throat... whether it be God(s), politics, morality, whatever. I don't know what anything "is" I only know what it "seems to be" in my present location in space/time. I just wish people would stop pretending that they have it all figured out and come clean. Dissolve that ego dammit!

That's all well and good, you just made it sound like there was some mass crusade and atheists are sweeping the globe in ever greater numbers, converting Christians left and right, and will soon be the most dominant belief system in the world

dunkman

know1 wrote:

I attempted to answer it on the first page.

My answer was in the form of question. The question is, what if our human, earthly lives are really just a fraction of our existence and dying isn't an end?

what if it isnt? the dying not being an end?

know1 wrote:

Furthermore, EVERYONE dies, so God essentially set up our lives to have an earthly death. When you view it from that perspective, wondering about the particular method of death seems a little strange to me. In other words, why does someone who was killed by a tsunami provoke anger toward God while someone who dies of old age does not? They both died.

because the arbitrary and senseless killing of an 8 year old girl killed by a tsunami was as a result of god. The old aged person died after having the chance of a good or a bad life and died because his heart gave out. you know, this kind of heartless reasoning of 'well... they both died' seems a little strange to me. very Presbyterian Scotland circa 1770

catefrances

pandora wrote:

its ok to die who knows that better than God
and its very ok for you to be angry that innocent people leave this world because you care- that is good-
that in itself is the good coming out of the bad

I know it better than God cause I exist and he doesnt.

Songburst

I have a crazy example of how the god solution to our existance is hypocritical too. Last week, friends of mine brought their little girl to the hospital because she wasn't feeling well and she died today. It is a crazy, horrible story that I don't want to detail on here -- but she was fine last Monday, sick last Wednesday, in a coma on Friday and dead today.

Anyway, I'm not religious but many of my friends and family are, and word on the street is that god is going to get the parents through this. I couldn't imagine dealing with this kind of devastation so maybe some nice fairy tales will ease their pain a little but my problem is that it wasn't god's fault that the little girl suffered and died, but it is god that will get them through it. I just don't get why a god can get credit for every good thing and he never be held accountable for any bad things -- it doesn't make sense.

I think that the natural progression of our species will eventually be to phase out gods and religions as we figure out more of the world. It's so plainly evident that throughout history the ruling class used the fear that is engrained in every religion to keep the masses subdued. As we get more educated as a species I think that we will eventually stop buying into religion.

Jeanwah

I've always thought it's ridiculous to debate religion/spirituality because there's nothing tangible about it. It's all about having faith that something exists, yet there's never any proof, no one's opinion is changed in the end, and we're left with our own opinions. Really, how many people, after debating the existence of God, change their mind after talking to someone with an opposing viewpoint? It never happens.

If one wants to believe that God "let" people die from a natural disaster, they have to live with their own reasons for having faith in the end. No one has any true answers, anywhere. It's all subjective, and none of it will EVER make sense on a universal scale.