Atheistic Fundamentalism seems to be replacing Theistic Fundamentalism in this country... And it is just as (or more) dogmatic, fanatical and crusading.
That is such an absurd statement I don't even know how to respond. You know the percentage of Americans that are atheist? It's miniscule, and most are afraid to admit it. Even the most "red" states said they would vote for a Muslim before an atheist. If there's any crusading or fanaticism it's solely a result of being tired of the condescension or fear from religious folks any time you meet one. Like the pathetic fuckers over the porch that keep posting about how they hope/pray every day that Ed finds Jesus and gets saved. Get the fuck over yourselves.
Absurd eh? Never did I mention there are droves of atheists out there, but the ones that I do meet are probably more fanatical and dogmatic about their non-beliefs than the Theist is about their beliefs.
I hardly ever have a believer try to talk me into a conversation about God (other than the rare Jehovah's Witness and the door)... but am very frequently cornered by an Atheist who wants to talk me into his version of reality and is ABSOLUTELY SURE there is no such thing as "god(s)." Both the atheist and the theist are constrained into a narrow tunnel of reality and have equally structured and archaic thought processes.
Belief is the death of intelligence... but so is a strict adherance to non-belief.
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
Atheistic Fundamentalism seems to be replacing Theistic Fundamentalism in this country... And it is just as (or more) dogmatic, fanatical and crusading.
That is such an absurd statement I don't even know how to respond. You know the percentage of Americans that are atheist? It's miniscule, and most are afraid to admit it. Even the most "red" states said they would vote for a Muslim before an atheist. If there's any crusading or fanaticism it's solely a result of being tired of the condescension or fear from religious folks any time you meet one. Like the pathetic fuckers over the porch that keep posting about how they hope/pray every day that Ed finds Jesus and gets saved. Get the fuck over yourselves.
Absurd eh? Never did I mention there are droves of atheists out there, but the ones that I do meet are probably more fanatical and dogmatic about their non-beliefs than the Theist is about their beliefs.
I hardly ever have a believer try to talk me into a conversation about God (other than the rare Jehovah's Witness and the door)... but am very frequently cornered by an Atheist who wants to talk me into his version of reality and is ABSOLUTELY SURE there is no such thing as "god(s)." Both the atheist and the theist are constrained into a narrow tunnel of reality and have equally structured and archaic thought processes.
Belief is the death of intelligence... but so is a strict adherance to non-belief.
I guess the word 'replaced' threw me... atheists are a long way from replacing fundamentalists. But I'm still not convinced by your argument. I've never been cornered by an atheist in casual convo in my life, but I've had many Christians preach at me. Regardless, I also wonder... how many atheists have you met that never said a word to you about it? You probably have no idea, because the base assumption in our society is that unless someone says otherwise, they are a Christian.
none of us will "know" until we are dead, that's a certainty. tho if you don't believe in an afterlife (and even if ya do) and indeed one never comes, well yea...SOL, you'll never know, as you won't have after-death consciousness to know it was all BS.
I'm just pissed that I'm not going to be able to gloat and lord it over the believers when it turns out I'm right about the lack of afterlife
given your penchant for gloating....i don't think you'd be ending up in the same place as those believers in any case. pack your shorts and some sunscreen, i hear it gets pretty hot there. and hey, given that more than likely....i'll get there first, hopefully we'll have a whole rockin' section of friends....
The problem with your scenario is that you're talking about us meeting up in an afterlife, which would only happen if I am wrong. So the premise is flawed
I guess the word 'replaced' threw me... atheists are a long way from replacing fundamentalists. But I'm still not convinced by your argument. I've never been cornered by an atheist in casual convo in my life, but I've had many Christians preach at me. Regardless, I also wonder... how many atheists have you met that never said a word to you about it? You probably have no idea, because the base assumption in our society is that unless someone says otherwise, they are a Christian.
Ok maybe I'm making a generalization (I don't know...) but my friends, people who I meet at the pub, etc, who are atheist laugh at the notion of the existence of a God, so I am assuming most atheists have the same notion that "they have it all figured out" and think that Theists are some sort of lower life form. It is all very hypocritical becaue their strict belief in science and rationality (and fanatisicm against all other views of reality) is just as dogmatic as religion.
I am of the opinion that everyone has their own view of reality, and every single viewpoint is just as relevant as any other. I hate it when others try to shove their version of reality down my throat... whether it be God(s), politics, morality, whatever. I don't know what anything "is" I only know what it "seems to be" in my present location in space/time. I just wish people would stop pretending that they have it all figured out and come clean. Dissolve that ego dammit!
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
The problem with your scenario is that you're talking about us meeting up in an afterlife, which would only happen if I am wrong. So the premise is flawed
Ok maybe I'm making a generalization (I don't know...) but my friends, people who I meet at the pub, etc, who are atheist laugh at the notion of the existence of a God, so I am assuming most atheists have the same notion that "they have it all figured out" and think that Theists are some sort of lower life form. It is all very hypocritical becaue their strict belief in science and rationality (and fanatisicm against all other views of reality) is just as dogmatic as religion.
I am of the opinion that everyone has their own view of reality, and every single viewpoint is just as relevant as any other. I hate it when others try to shove their version of reality down my throat... whether it be God(s), politics, morality, whatever. I don't know what anything "is" I only know what it "seems to be" in my present location in space/time. I just wish people would stop pretending that they have it all figured out and come clean. Dissolve that ego dammit!
excellent post, and i do agree.....some atheists, right along with theists can both be extremely dogmatic in their approach. too many are of their own beliefs being the only right way, whereas in reality, there are myriad of ways to approach living, and your right way may different very much from mine.....but we find what works for us. perhaps it's a backlash against years of religion ruling humanity, and it still is quite a divisive factor...but absolutely, there has to be a better way of balance/respect of all views...
live and let live. such a simple concept, yet seemingly complex to near impossible for humanity to pull off.
I guess the word 'replaced' threw me... atheists are a long way from replacing fundamentalists. But I'm still not convinced by your argument. I've never been cornered by an atheist in casual convo in my life, but I've had many Christians preach at me. Regardless, I also wonder... how many atheists have you met that never said a word to you about it? You probably have no idea, because the base assumption in our society is that unless someone says otherwise, they are a Christian.
Ok maybe I'm making a generalization (I don't know...) but my friends, people who I meet at the pub, etc, who are atheist laugh at the notion of the existence of a God, so I am assuming most atheists have the same notion that "they have it all figured out" and think that Theists are some sort of lower life form. It is all very hypocritical becaue their strict belief in science and rationality (and fanatisicm against all other views of reality) is just as dogmatic as religion.
I am of the opinion that everyone has their own view of reality, and every single viewpoint is just as relevant as any other. I hate it when others try to shove their version of reality down my throat... whether it be God(s), politics, morality, whatever. I don't know what anything "is" I only know what it "seems to be" in my present location in space/time. I just wish people would stop pretending that they have it all figured out and come clean. Dissolve that ego dammit!
That's all well and good, you just made it sound like there was some mass crusade and atheists are sweeping the globe in ever greater numbers, converting Christians left and right, and will soon be the most dominant belief system in the world
My answer was in the form of question. The question is, what if our human, earthly lives are really just a fraction of our existence and dying isn't an end?
Furthermore, EVERYONE dies, so God essentially set up our lives to have an earthly death. When you view it from that perspective, wondering about the particular method of death seems a little strange to me. In other words, why does someone who was killed by a tsunami provoke anger toward God while someone who dies of old age does not? They both died.
because the arbitrary and senseless killing of an 8 year old girl killed by a tsunami was as a result of god. The old aged person died after having the chance of a good or a bad life and died because his heart gave out. you know, this kind of heartless reasoning of 'well... they both died' seems a little strange to me. very Presbyterian Scotland circa 1770
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
its ok to die who knows that better than God
and its very ok for you to be angry that innocent people leave this world because you care- that is good-
that in itself is the good coming out of the bad
I know it better than God cause I exist and he doesnt.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I have a crazy example of how the god solution to our existance is hypocritical too. Last week, friends of mine brought their little girl to the hospital because she wasn't feeling well and she died today. It is a crazy, horrible story that I don't want to detail on here -- but she was fine last Monday, sick last Wednesday, in a coma on Friday and dead today.
Anyway, I'm not religious but many of my friends and family are, and word on the street is that god is going to get the parents through this. I couldn't imagine dealing with this kind of devastation so maybe some nice fairy tales will ease their pain a little but my problem is that it wasn't god's fault that the little girl suffered and died, but it is god that will get them through it. I just don't get why a god can get credit for every good thing and he never be held accountable for any bad things -- it doesn't make sense.
I think that the natural progression of our species will eventually be to phase out gods and religions as we figure out more of the world. It's so plainly evident that throughout history the ruling class used the fear that is engrained in every religion to keep the masses subdued. As we get more educated as a species I think that we will eventually stop buying into religion.
1/12/1879, 4/8/1156, 2/6/1977, who gives a shit, ...
I've always thought it's ridiculous to debate religion/spirituality because there's nothing tangible about it. It's all about having faith that something exists, yet there's never any proof, no one's opinion is changed in the end, and we're left with our own opinions. Really, how many people, after debating the existence of God, change their mind after talking to someone with an opposing viewpoint? It never happens.
If one wants to believe that God "let" people die from a natural disaster, they have to live with their own reasons for having faith in the end. No one has any true answers, anywhere. It's all subjective, and none of it will EVER make sense on a universal scale.
You think that there is no god(s) because of the evil or tragedy in the world... right?
Then why not think there IS god(s) because of all the good in the world?
tragedy, such as tsunamis, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions are natural tragedies. I think they are geological tragedies. But a religious person would have to admit they are tragedies made by god as he made the planet. Ergo my belief is that religious people worship a god who created a planet that kills people for no reason. No reason .. other than 'mysterious ways'... which is a U2 song... not an answer.
because good is a human emotion... just as hatred is... and if we have 'free will' to be evil, angry, bitter and twisted to our fellow man then 'free will' also gives us 'good'... good is not a god-given thing... its an emotion we can be capable of, or not if we choose.
I know an atheist guy who gave 3.2million to charity, gave up his 6 bedroom house to cancer patients, never swore, smoked, got drunk or took drugs. He was married, had 2 kids, was carbon neutral... he was the goodiest of the good... he's still going to hell though... apparently. Never believed in god. So he's going to hell. Thats nice.
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
tragedy, such as tsunamis, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions are natural tragedies. I think they are geological tragedies. But a religious person would have to admit they are tragedies made by god as he made the planet. Ergo my belief is that religious people worship a god who created a planet that kills people for no reason. No reason .. other than 'mysterious ways'... which is a U2 song... not an answer.
ok so we are talking about "natural" or "geological" phenomena. My point works the same - or better:
You believe there is no God because of all the evil in the world? ("tsunamis, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions)
Then why don't you believe in God because of all the good in the world? (our planet is the only planet known to support LIFE, it is a perfect environment with the exact set of precise conditions needed for life to exist)
I know an atheist guy who gave 3.2million to charity, gave up his 6 bedroom house to cancer patients, never swore, smoked, got drunk or took drugs. He was married, had 2 kids, was carbon neutral... he was the goodiest of the good... he's still going to hell though... apparently. Never believed in god. So he's going to hell. Thats nice.
haha. I don't know what I "believe" but evidence points me to thinking there is a higher being or creator. And you know what? I am an ASSHOLE! I smoke, drink, rarely do charity, have done my share of drugs, definitely am not carbon neutral, etc etc. Although I am trying to be a better person and help others as much as I can.
I don't think anyone said that an atheist is definitely going to "hell." (whatever that is). I'm merely using logic to prove that your insistence that there IS NO GOD is just as silly as a religious person being insistent that THERE IS A GOD! Like I said previously, none of us know. If you tell me you do know about the existence or non-existence of God(s), you are either lying or are full of shit. But your point is duly noted... actions speak louder than 'beliefs.' I agree with that.
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
ok so we are talking about "natural" or "geological" phenomena. My point works the same - or better:
You believe there is no God because of all the evil in the world? ("tsunamis, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions)
Then why don't you believe in God because of all the good in the world? (our planet is the only planet known to support LIFE, it is a perfect environment with the exact set of precise conditions needed for life to exist)
no, i dont believe in a god because of a varying multitude of reasons. but one of those reasons is that his planet design is highly flawed and kills his own creations. which i find quite sick. but earthquakes, tsunamis, etc arent 'evil'... they are naturally occurring disasters.
Am i really supposed to believe in a god because of the good in the world? is that all the evidence of a god that you have? good... an emotive feeling?
i help old ladies cross the street... it's a good thing. I'll still go to hell though.
haha. I don't know what I "believe" but evidence points me to thinking there is a higher being or creator. And you know what? I am an ASSHOLE! I smoke, drink, rarely do charity, have done my share of drugs, definitely am not carbon neutral, etc etc. Although I am trying to be a better person and help others as much as I can.
I don't think anyone said that an atheist is definitely going to "hell." (whatever that is). I'm merely using logic to prove that your insistence that there IS NO GOD is just as silly as a religious person being insistent that THERE IS A GOD! Like I said previously, none of us know. If you tell me you do know about the existence or non-existence of God(s), you are either lying or are full of shit. But your point is duly noted... actions speak louder than 'beliefs.' I agree with that.
i see no evidence for a god. not one shred. i see plenty of evidence against there being a god. i'm ok with that.
religious people have told me on this very forum that a child-murdering, wife beating, pedophile rapist who truly repents and asks god to save him on his deathbed 4 hours before he sits on the electric chair will gain access to heaven... my charitable, honest, loving, helping old ladies across the street atheist friend is going to hell... because he doesn't believe in god.
i believe those are the 'rules'
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
no, i dont believe in a god because of a varying multitude of reasons. but one of those reasons is that his planet design is highly flawed and kills his own creations. which i find quite sick. but earthquakes, tsunamis, etc arent 'evil'... they are naturally occurring disasters.
Am i really supposed to believe in a god because of the good in the world? is that all the evidence of a god that you have? good... an emotive feeling?
I don't think you get it. For every natural disaster there are millions of examples of how the earth is an incredibly unique life-sustaining world. Logically, you cannot say 'there is no god' or 'there is a god' for either the natural disasters or the millions of variables that have to be aligned for life to exist. Both arguments are not rational because they are offsetting.
i see no evidence for a god. not one shred. i see plenty of evidence against there being a god. i'm ok with that.
religious people have told me on this very forum that a child-murdering, wife beating, pedophile rapist who truly repents and asks god to save him on his deathbed 4 hours before he sits on the electric chair will gain access to heaven... my charitable, honest, loving, helping old ladies across the street atheist friend is going to hell... because he doesn't believe in god.
i believe those are the 'rules'
Look, I am not trying to make you believe in God. Heck, I don't 'believe' in God but I am 'optimistic' that there is God(s). I was just pointing out that your argument for No God is not rational (as explained above and many times in previous posts).
I'm sorry that you don't see any evidence for the existence of God. I've been there. Remember, inside everyone of us there is a Thinker and a Prover. (this is basic psychology here) If you don't believe you will find any evidence of God, you will undoubtedly find evidence that "Proves" he doesn't exist (i.e. tsunamis). For me, I am optimistic there is a God and I find evidence that "Proves" it all the time (sex, beer, my wife and son, etc). It is up to you in regards to how you look at it all; what you think your mind will prove.
And who on this forum told you that last part about who gets access to "heaven and hell?" That may be the most ignorant thing I've ever read...
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
haha. I don't know what I "believe" but evidence points me to thinking there is a higher being or creator. And you know what? I am an ASSHOLE! I smoke, drink, rarely do charity, have done my share of drugs, definitely am not carbon neutral, etc etc. Although I am trying to be a better person and help others as much as I can.
I don't think anyone said that an atheist is definitely going to "hell." (whatever that is). I'm merely using logic to prove that your insistence that there IS NO GOD is just as silly as a religious person being insistent that THERE IS A GOD! Like I said previously, none of us know. If you tell me you do know about the existence or non-existence of God(s), you are either lying or are full of shit. But your point is duly noted... actions speak louder than 'beliefs.' I agree with that.
i see no evidence for a god. not one shred. i see plenty of evidence against there being a god. i'm ok with that.
religious people have told me on this very forum that a child-murdering, wife beating, pedophile rapist who truly repents and asks god to save him on his deathbed 4 hours before he sits on the electric chair will gain access to heaven... my charitable, honest, loving, helping old ladies across the street atheist friend is going to hell... because he doesn't believe in god.
i believe those are the 'rules'[/quote]
its these stupid rules made by man that seem to cause so much debate. We are confusing being a spiritual person, believing in a supreme being to those people that follow a religion and its "laws" created by man which are flawed by greed and power and seem so ridiculous in the here and now. I think you asked for a theological explanation for earthly tragedies and you got some good responses one in particular tracing historical events but again it became the debate of who believes and who doesn't. I thank God everyday that I believe and that is not to find any fault with those that don't. It comes down to need. I need God- I love the fact he walks with me and guides me and believe me I feel him. For those who do not need him it doesn't mean he is not there.
you do realise that entire families have been obliterated and that thousands of people have no home and are in danger of starvation, dysentery, etc..
what good will it do them when they have lost 4 of their kids for me to send them £10?
when 'we' reach out to them? where's god? he could have reached out to them before his planet killed them... as we apparently have 'free will' then any good shown to these victims is as a result of this 'free will' and therefore nothing to do with god.
no, i dont believe in a god because of a varying multitude of reasons. but one of those reasons is that his planet design is highly flawed and kills his own creations. which i find quite sick. but earthquakes, tsunamis, etc arent 'evil'... they are naturally occurring disasters.
hey dunk, i have a question for you, semi-related tho not actually about god. do you truly believe the 'design' of the planet is flawed? god or no god, you believe this? as you say, 'naturally occurring disasters'.....well, they are natural, no? so why exactly are they flawed? just b/c something makes something else cease, doesn't actually mean it is a design flaw. as we all well know, everything lives and everything dies...it is the cycle of life, of the planet, the universe, etc. life is change. so i just don't necessarily see any of these things as being flaws, just simply, a part of life. they are tragic for those who suffer and/or die....but it is still life.
as to the god argument, i think you are making a belief in god and a belief in man-made religion, mutually exclusive, which they are not. you are also lumping ALL the world's religions, basically within the confines of strict christian beliefs b/c there are many other religions who do not follow the 'rules' you mention and even more people of faith who follow no hard-and-fast religion at all. just sayin'.
I think the term "naturally occuring disaster" is flawed in iteslf. We only call it a disaster because it effects things we (humans) hold dear. There's no design, no alterior motive, it's just how things are.
It may just be that these "disasters" are actually a part of how the world/planet is made up and how it works.
hey dunk, i have a question for you, semi-related tho not actually about god. do you truly believe the 'design' of the planet is flawed? god or no god, you believe this? as you say, 'naturally occurring disasters'.....well, they are natural, no? so why exactly are they flawed? just b/c something makes something else cease, doesn't actually mean it is a design flaw. as we all well know, everything lives and everything dies...it is the cycle of life, of the planet, the universe, etc. life is change. so i just don't necessarily see any of these things as being flaws, just simply, a part of life. they are tragic for those who suffer and/or die....but it is still life.
its flawed if you believe that god made it. all of those people died in a tsunami because of the fragility od his planet. thats the flaw. of course its part of the circle of life... but they would all have died eventually anyway... so why bother wiping them out via a wave of water that only occurred as a result of a flaw within the earths plates.
as to the god argument, i think you are making a belief in god and a belief in man-made religion, mutually exclusive, which they are not. you are also lumping ALL the world's religions, basically within the confines of strict christian beliefs b/c there are many other religions who do not follow the 'rules' you mention and even more people of faith who follow no hard-and-fast religion at all. just sayin'.
well this thread has, like the glorious plates that hold the earth together, moved around a bit... my original question was "Can i ask a religious person their explanation for why their god allows his creation, i.e. the planet, to kill his other creations... via the method of Tsunami?"... to which i do not think i've received a straight answer... only ambiguities and wooly theories.
Also, there are many religions and faiths, as you've pointed out... so someone has to be wrong...
I will now quote the great Billy Connolly... " It seems to me that Islam and Christianity and Judaism all have the same god, and he's telling them all different things.”
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
I think the term "naturally occuring disaster" is flawed in iteslf. We only call it a disaster because it effects things we (humans) hold dear. There's no design, no alterior motive, it's just how things are.
It may just be that these "disasters" are actually a part of how the world/planet is made up and how it works.
that is exactly my point.
even wiping out just about every living thing in it's path....again, seems to be all part of the planet's 'grand design'...all a part of life renewal. it is very species-centric to say that what is disastrous for us is disastrous for the planet, or is flawed....it just IS. personally, i find it absolutely amazing and full of awe. no, i would not desire to be in the path of any of these things, but i do believe they have purpose, overall, for the life cycle of the planet.
dunk, even those who may believe in a god, again...does not mean the design would be flawed. one can have a belief in god and STILL see/believe that these natural occurances are all part of the grand design, all a part of life.....again, not be so species-centric. you seem to be looking at it specifically from quite a fundamentalist christian lens, and that does not encompass all the world's religions nor all faith in god(s). that is all. as to someone having to be 'wrong'....well of course, we're human....
anyhoo, i am agnostic at best, but i do respect those with faith, or none at all....all a-ok by me.
btw, as to this:
"to which i do not think i've received a straight answer... only ambiguities and wooly theories."
isn't that exactly what you expected, desired even...to 'prove' your pov? anyone with a true religious faith will not, cannot, explain any of it. that is why it is FAITH. also, most who have this faith, feel no need to explain or understad it all...b/c most realize, it is beyond their comprehension why, and they accept that...due to their faith. this in no way proves/disporves anything....b/c such things are beliefs, not scientific proofs. it just seems a way to try and diminish one's belief system. spirituality, belief in god(s) simply operates within an entirely different thought process than science.
hey dunk, i have a question for you, semi-related tho not actually about god. do you truly believe the 'design' of the planet is flawed? god or no god, you believe this? as you say, 'naturally occurring disasters'.....well, they are natural, no? so why exactly are they flawed? just b/c something makes something else cease, doesn't actually mean it is a design flaw. as we all well know, everything lives and everything dies...it is the cycle of life, of the planet, the universe, etc. life is change. so i just don't necessarily see any of these things as being flaws, just simply, a part of life. they are tragic for those who suffer and/or die....but it is still life.
its flawed if you believe that god made it. all of those people died in a tsunami because of the fragility od his planet. thats the flaw. of course its part of the circle of life... but they would all have died eventually anyway... so why bother wiping them out via a wave of water that only occurred as a result of a flaw within the earths plates.
Just to clarify, it's only flawed if you believe that an all-powerful and all-loving God made it. It can be perfect and made by God if you believe "god" means something other than the Christian God, as many here have pointed out (natural processes, human life is not sacred or more meaningful than other life, etc). The problem comes when people try to convince me/you that God is all-powerful, thinks humans are special, loves them above all, and then creates a world that causes them to suffer enormous tragedy, pain, and loss.
its so sad for those people,,and ther isnt an easy and 100% answer to your question Dunk
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Can i ask a religious person their explanation for why their god allows his creation, i.e. the planet, to kill his other creations... via the method of Tsunami?
I'm genuinely interested to see if there is a theological explanation as to why innocent people would be killed by an earthquake causing a huge tsunami.
I understand that things like murder, rape, etc happen as a consequence of 'free will'... but this seems arbitrary... random... not as a result of man itself.
I'm actually religious in my own mind, but I don't think of Tsunamis as a religious issue. I guess some people think major disasters like Noah's flood are a direct result of an angry God . . . and some would see the Tsunami as one too (?) I guess as I don't I can't answer your question.
It looks like a geology/oceanography question as opposed to a religious question. I don't think a scientist would consider this arbitrary.
There is no such thing as leftover pizza. There is now pizza and later pizza. - anonymous The risk I took was calculated, but man, am I bad at math - The Mincing Mockingbird
... my original question was "Can i ask a religious person their explanation for why their god allows his creation, i.e. the planet, to kill his other creations... via the method of Tsunami?"... to which i do not think i've received a straight answer... only ambiguities and wooly theories.
Also, there are many religions and faiths, as you've pointed out... so someone has to be wrong...
I will now quote the great Billy Connolly... " It seems to me that Islam and Christianity and Judaism all have the same god, and he's telling them all different things.”
Comments
Absurd eh? Never did I mention there are droves of atheists out there, but the ones that I do meet are probably more fanatical and dogmatic about their non-beliefs than the Theist is about their beliefs.
I hardly ever have a believer try to talk me into a conversation about God (other than the rare Jehovah's Witness and the door)... but am very frequently cornered by an Atheist who wants to talk me into his version of reality and is ABSOLUTELY SURE there is no such thing as "god(s)." Both the atheist and the theist are constrained into a narrow tunnel of reality and have equally structured and archaic thought processes.
Belief is the death of intelligence... but so is a strict adherance to non-belief.
I guess the word 'replaced' threw me... atheists are a long way from replacing fundamentalists. But I'm still not convinced by your argument. I've never been cornered by an atheist in casual convo in my life, but I've had many Christians preach at me. Regardless, I also wonder... how many atheists have you met that never said a word to you about it? You probably have no idea, because the base assumption in our society is that unless someone says otherwise, they are a Christian.
The problem with your scenario is that you're talking about us meeting up in an afterlife, which would only happen if I am wrong. So the premise is flawed
Ok maybe I'm making a generalization (I don't know...) but my friends, people who I meet at the pub, etc, who are atheist laugh at the notion of the existence of a God, so I am assuming most atheists have the same notion that "they have it all figured out" and think that Theists are some sort of lower life form. It is all very hypocritical becaue their strict belief in science and rationality (and fanatisicm against all other views of reality) is just as dogmatic as religion.
I am of the opinion that everyone has their own view of reality, and every single viewpoint is just as relevant as any other. I hate it when others try to shove their version of reality down my throat... whether it be God(s), politics, morality, whatever. I don't know what anything "is" I only know what it "seems to be" in my present location in space/time. I just wish people would stop pretending that they have it all figured out and come clean. Dissolve that ego dammit!
the only flaw....is missing the humor.
excellent post, and i do agree.....some atheists, right along with theists can both be extremely dogmatic in their approach. too many are of their own beliefs being the only right way, whereas in reality, there are myriad of ways to approach living, and your right way may different very much from mine.....but we find what works for us. perhaps it's a backlash against years of religion ruling humanity, and it still is quite a divisive factor...but absolutely, there has to be a better way of balance/respect of all views...
live and let live. such a simple concept, yet seemingly complex to near impossible for humanity to pull off.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
That's all well and good, you just made it sound like there was some mass crusade and atheists are sweeping the globe in ever greater numbers, converting Christians left and right, and will soon be the most dominant belief system in the world
what if it isnt? the dying not being an end?
because the arbitrary and senseless killing of an 8 year old girl killed by a tsunami was as a result of god. The old aged person died after having the chance of a good or a bad life and died because his heart gave out. you know, this kind of heartless reasoning of 'well... they both died' seems a little strange to me. very Presbyterian Scotland circa 1770
I know it better than God cause I exist and he doesnt.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Anyway, I'm not religious but many of my friends and family are, and word on the street is that god is going to get the parents through this. I couldn't imagine dealing with this kind of devastation so maybe some nice fairy tales will ease their pain a little but my problem is that it wasn't god's fault that the little girl suffered and died, but it is god that will get them through it. I just don't get why a god can get credit for every good thing and he never be held accountable for any bad things -- it doesn't make sense.
I think that the natural progression of our species will eventually be to phase out gods and religions as we figure out more of the world. It's so plainly evident that throughout history the ruling class used the fear that is engrained in every religion to keep the masses subdued. As we get more educated as a species I think that we will eventually stop buying into religion.
If one wants to believe that God "let" people die from a natural disaster, they have to live with their own reasons for having faith in the end. No one has any true answers, anywhere. It's all subjective, and none of it will EVER make sense on a universal scale.
tragedy, such as tsunamis, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions are natural tragedies. I think they are geological tragedies. But a religious person would have to admit they are tragedies made by god as he made the planet. Ergo my belief is that religious people worship a god who created a planet that kills people for no reason. No reason .. other than 'mysterious ways'... which is a U2 song... not an answer.
because good is a human emotion... just as hatred is... and if we have 'free will' to be evil, angry, bitter and twisted to our fellow man then 'free will' also gives us 'good'... good is not a god-given thing... its an emotion we can be capable of, or not if we choose.
I know an atheist guy who gave 3.2million to charity, gave up his 6 bedroom house to cancer patients, never swore, smoked, got drunk or took drugs. He was married, had 2 kids, was carbon neutral... he was the goodiest of the good... he's still going to hell though... apparently. Never believed in god. So he's going to hell. Thats nice.
ok so we are talking about "natural" or "geological" phenomena. My point works the same - or better:
You believe there is no God because of all the evil in the world? ("tsunamis, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions)
Then why don't you believe in God because of all the good in the world? (our planet is the only planet known to support LIFE, it is a perfect environment with the exact set of precise conditions needed for life to exist)
haha. I don't know what I "believe" but evidence points me to thinking there is a higher being or creator. And you know what? I am an ASSHOLE! I smoke, drink, rarely do charity, have done my share of drugs, definitely am not carbon neutral, etc etc. Although I am trying to be a better person and help others as much as I can.
I don't think anyone said that an atheist is definitely going to "hell." (whatever that is). I'm merely using logic to prove that your insistence that there IS NO GOD is just as silly as a religious person being insistent that THERE IS A GOD! Like I said previously, none of us know. If you tell me you do know about the existence or non-existence of God(s), you are either lying or are full of shit. But your point is duly noted... actions speak louder than 'beliefs.' I agree with that.
Sometimes, things just happen.
haywayne.blogspot.com
no, i dont believe in a god because of a varying multitude of reasons. but one of those reasons is that his planet design is highly flawed and kills his own creations. which i find quite sick. but earthquakes, tsunamis, etc arent 'evil'... they are naturally occurring disasters.
Am i really supposed to believe in a god because of the good in the world? is that all the evidence of a god that you have? good... an emotive feeling?
i help old ladies cross the street... it's a good thing. I'll still go to hell though.
i see no evidence for a god. not one shred. i see plenty of evidence against there being a god. i'm ok with that.
religious people have told me on this very forum that a child-murdering, wife beating, pedophile rapist who truly repents and asks god to save him on his deathbed 4 hours before he sits on the electric chair will gain access to heaven... my charitable, honest, loving, helping old ladies across the street atheist friend is going to hell... because he doesn't believe in god.
i believe those are the 'rules'
I don't think you get it. For every natural disaster there are millions of examples of how the earth is an incredibly unique life-sustaining world. Logically, you cannot say 'there is no god' or 'there is a god' for either the natural disasters or the millions of variables that have to be aligned for life to exist. Both arguments are not rational because they are offsetting.
Look, I am not trying to make you believe in God. Heck, I don't 'believe' in God but I am 'optimistic' that there is God(s). I was just pointing out that your argument for No God is not rational (as explained above and many times in previous posts).
I'm sorry that you don't see any evidence for the existence of God. I've been there. Remember, inside everyone of us there is a Thinker and a Prover. (this is basic psychology here) If you don't believe you will find any evidence of God, you will undoubtedly find evidence that "Proves" he doesn't exist (i.e. tsunamis). For me, I am optimistic there is a God and I find evidence that "Proves" it all the time (sex, beer, my wife and son, etc). It is up to you in regards to how you look at it all; what you think your mind will prove.
And who on this forum told you that last part about who gets access to "heaven and hell?" That may be the most ignorant thing I've ever read...
i help old ladies cross the street... it's a good thing. I'll still go to hell though.
i see no evidence for a god. not one shred. i see plenty of evidence against there being a god. i'm ok with that.
religious people have told me on this very forum that a child-murdering, wife beating, pedophile rapist who truly repents and asks god to save him on his deathbed 4 hours before he sits on the electric chair will gain access to heaven... my charitable, honest, loving, helping old ladies across the street atheist friend is going to hell... because he doesn't believe in god.
i believe those are the 'rules'[/quote]
its these stupid rules made by man that seem to cause so much debate. We are confusing being a spiritual person, believing in a supreme being to those people that follow a religion and its "laws" created by man which are flawed by greed and power and seem so ridiculous in the here and now. I think you asked for a theological explanation for earthly tragedies and you got some good responses one in particular tracing historical events but again it became the debate of who believes and who doesn't. I thank God everyday that I believe and that is not to find any fault with those that don't. It comes down to need. I need God- I love the fact he walks with me and guides me and believe me I feel him. For those who do not need him it doesn't mean he is not there.
Where's Ahnimus when we need him?
hey dunk, i have a question for you, semi-related tho not actually about god. do you truly believe the 'design' of the planet is flawed? god or no god, you believe this? as you say, 'naturally occurring disasters'.....well, they are natural, no? so why exactly are they flawed? just b/c something makes something else cease, doesn't actually mean it is a design flaw. as we all well know, everything lives and everything dies...it is the cycle of life, of the planet, the universe, etc. life is change. so i just don't necessarily see any of these things as being flaws, just simply, a part of life. they are tragic for those who suffer and/or die....but it is still life.
as to the god argument, i think you are making a belief in god and a belief in man-made religion, mutually exclusive, which they are not. you are also lumping ALL the world's religions, basically within the confines of strict christian beliefs b/c there are many other religions who do not follow the 'rules' you mention and even more people of faith who follow no hard-and-fast religion at all. just sayin'.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
It may just be that these "disasters" are actually a part of how the world/planet is made up and how it works.
haywayne.blogspot.com
its flawed if you believe that god made it. all of those people died in a tsunami because of the fragility od his planet. thats the flaw. of course its part of the circle of life... but they would all have died eventually anyway... so why bother wiping them out via a wave of water that only occurred as a result of a flaw within the earths plates.
well this thread has, like the glorious plates that hold the earth together, moved around a bit... my original question was "Can i ask a religious person their explanation for why their god allows his creation, i.e. the planet, to kill his other creations... via the method of Tsunami?"... to which i do not think i've received a straight answer... only ambiguities and wooly theories.
Also, there are many religions and faiths, as you've pointed out... so someone has to be wrong...
I will now quote the great Billy Connolly... " It seems to me that Islam and Christianity and Judaism all have the same god, and he's telling them all different things.”
that is exactly my point.
even wiping out just about every living thing in it's path....again, seems to be all part of the planet's 'grand design'...all a part of life renewal. it is very species-centric to say that what is disastrous for us is disastrous for the planet, or is flawed....it just IS. personally, i find it absolutely amazing and full of awe. no, i would not desire to be in the path of any of these things, but i do believe they have purpose, overall, for the life cycle of the planet.
dunk, even those who may believe in a god, again...does not mean the design would be flawed. one can have a belief in god and STILL see/believe that these natural occurances are all part of the grand design, all a part of life.....again, not be so species-centric. you seem to be looking at it specifically from quite a fundamentalist christian lens, and that does not encompass all the world's religions nor all faith in god(s). that is all. as to someone having to be 'wrong'....well of course, we're human....
anyhoo, i am agnostic at best, but i do respect those with faith, or none at all....all a-ok by me.
btw, as to this:
"to which i do not think i've received a straight answer... only ambiguities and wooly theories."
isn't that exactly what you expected, desired even...to 'prove' your pov? anyone with a true religious faith will not, cannot, explain any of it. that is why it is FAITH. also, most who have this faith, feel no need to explain or understad it all...b/c most realize, it is beyond their comprehension why, and they accept that...due to their faith. this in no way proves/disporves anything....b/c such things are beliefs, not scientific proofs. it just seems a way to try and diminish one's belief system. spirituality, belief in god(s) simply operates within an entirely different thought process than science.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Just to clarify, it's only flawed if you believe that an all-powerful and all-loving God made it. It can be perfect and made by God if you believe "god" means something other than the Christian God, as many here have pointed out (natural processes, human life is not sacred or more meaningful than other life, etc). The problem comes when people try to convince me/you that God is all-powerful, thinks humans are special, loves them above all, and then creates a world that causes them to suffer enormous tragedy, pain, and loss.
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
It looks like a geology/oceanography question as opposed to a religious question. I don't think a scientist would consider this arbitrary.
The risk I took was calculated, but man, am I bad at math - The Mincing Mockingbird
And there's your answer dunk. There is no one answer to your question. No one's wrong...no one's exactly right either.