I received this email today and thought it appropriate for this discussion. I know most of your are far left ( I stay in the middle). Like I said in an earlier post, I think race should be taken off all applications or any type of paper work. The guy does have a point. I'm curious to see how you discredit this one.
BUCHANAN TO OBAMA
By Patrick J. Buchanan
Barack says we need to have a conversation about race in America . Fair enough. But this time, it has to be a two-way conversation. White America needs to be heard from, not just lectured to... This time, the Silent Majority needs to have its convictions, grievances and demands heard. And among them are these:
First, America has been the best country on earth for black folks. It was here that 600,000 black people, brought from Africa in slave ships, grew into a community of 40 million, were introduced to Christian salvation, and reached the greatest levels of freedom and prosperity blacks have ever known. Wright ought to go down on his knees and thank God he is an American.
Second, no people anywhere has done more to lift up blacks than white Americans. Untold trillions have been spent since the ' 60s on welfare, food stamps, rent supplements, Section 8 housing, Pell grants, student loans, legal services, Medicaid, Earned Income Tax Credits and poverty programs designed to bring the African-American community into the mainstream.. Governments, businesses and colleges have engaged in discrimination against white folks -- with affirmative action, contract set-asides and quotas -- to advance black applicants over white applicants. Churches, foundations, civic groups, schools and individuals all over America have donated their time and money to support soup kitchens, adult education, day care, retirement and nursing homes for blacks.
We hear the grievances. Where is the gratitude???
Barack talks about new 'ladders of opportunity' for blacks. Let him go to Altoona ? And Johnstown , and ask the white kids in Catholic schools how many were visited lately by Ivy League recruiters handing out scholarships for 'deserving' white kids.? Is white America really responsible for the fact that the crime and incarceration rates for African-Americans are seven times those of white America ? Is it really white America 's fault that illegitimacy in the African-American community has hit 70 percent and the black dropout rate from high schools in some cities has reached 50 percent?
Is that the fault of white America or, first and foremost, a failure of the black community itself?
As for racism, its ugliest manifestation is in interracial crime, and especially interracial crimes of violence. Is Barack Obama aware that while white criminals choose black victims 3 percent of the time, black criminals choose white victims 45 percent of the time?
Is Barack aware that black-on-white rapes are 100 times more common than the reverse, that black-on-white robberies were 139 times as common in the first three years of this decade as the reverse?
We have all heard ad nauseam from the Rev. Al about Tawana Brawley, the Duke rape case and Jena . And all turned out to be hoaxes. But about the epidemic of black assaults on whites that are real, we hear nothing.
Sorry, Barack, some of us have heard it all before, about 40 years and 40 trillion tax dollars ago.
We are a Christian Nation even if Mr. Obama says we are not.
This needs to be passed around because, this is a message everyone needs to hear!!!
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
I received this email today and thought it appropriate for this discussion. I know most of your are far left ( I stay in the middle). Like I said in an earlier post, I think race should be taken off all applications or any type of paper work. The guy does have a point. I'm curious to see how you discredit this one.
...
We are a Christian Nation even if Mr. Obama says we are not.
This needs to be passed around because, this is a message everyone needs to hear!!!
Onward Christian soldiers! Kill the infidels and drive out the seculars polluting our beautiful city on a hill!
I'm cool with removing race from all applications, but this Christian nation thing is fucking bullshit and it's a message that should definitely not be passed around. That's the kind of message they pass around in places like Iran and Saudi Arabia.
Our founding fathers wanted to end slavery, but understood that to include amendments that could abolish slavery right from the get would end the attempt to found a new nation before it even began because at that time, the majority of the people with any power were against abolishing slavery..Namely the people in the south. so instead they included a section regarding a census for the purpose of representation that would limit the power the south could wield so that one day they could abolish slavery.
Where do you get this from? I'm asking because I'm curious, I've never heard or read anything like this. I didn't major in history in college, but I'm not totally ignorant on the subject and I've never in my life heard anyone claim the founding fathers were strongly anti-slavery and carefully plotted the constitutional drafting in order to one day combat slavery. My understanding was that they didn't really give a damn one way or the other, but they wanted to make sure the south couldn't pad their numbers and influence by using their slaves to get increased representation when everyone knew those slaves weren't going to get to vote. The northern aristocrats didn't want to have to share any more power with southern farmers than they had to.
First, America has been the best country on earth for black folks. It was here that 600,000 black people, brought from Africa in slave ships, grew into a community of 40 million, were introduced to Christian salvation, and reached the greatest levels of freedom and prosperity blacks have ever known. Wright ought to go down on his knees and thank God he is an American.
We hear the grievances. Where is the gratitude???
Holy shit, I missed that. That's the most disgusting shit I ever read and totally destroys any legit point he might try to make. Blacks should be GRATEFUL for slavery? How far gone do you have to be?
There is nothing said about killing anyone....I thank he is saying why all the bitching?......seems people have done plenty to help blacks.....but then again I really don't think discrimanation is about race anymore.....seems its more about class today.
Blacks should be GRATEFUL for slavery? How far gone do you have to be?
Grateful for slavery is not what he was saying....I think you twisted it a bit....
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
'"We" designed welfare for blacks.... we created soup kitchens for blacks... we have food stamps for blacks... we give blacks welfare...' Who is "we?" Did Buchanan help write any of those policies or even VOTE for ANY of them? That is what "we" means... that he was a part of it.
Were those policies creates for black people or for poor people... people who need these services to survive?
Why is it that black people are often the recipient for these programs? Is there something "wrong" with them? Is it because they are black that they are poor? That is what it seems like Buchanan is saying... doesn't it?
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
There is nothing said about killing anyone....I thank he is saying why all the bitching?......seems people have done plenty to help blacks.....but then again I really don't think discrimanation is about race anymore.....seems its more about class today.
Blacks should be GRATEFUL for slavery? How far gone do you have to be?
Grateful for slavery is not what he was saying....I think you twisted it a bit....
No, but this Christian nation nonsense always carries the subtext that everyone here should be Christian, which is apparent from his statement that the blacks should feel lucky that we took the time to convert them to Christianity after we tore them from their families and homeland to enslave them. Seems like a fair trade to me eh? 400 hundred years of involuntary servitude at the hands of whips and chains, but at least we gave them a Bible so it's cool right? Fuck the Christian nation nonsense.
And maybe I did drop the paragraph in between, but my statement still stands. We drag them across an ocean killing thousands along the way, enslave them for a few hundred years, then in the last 30-40 we throw them a few social programs and they're supposed to be grateful? In what world does that make moral sense? If a guy spend a decade beating the shit out of his wife and kids, should they be grateful to him when he makes a child support payment or two from jail? Fuck no.
'"We" designed welfare for blacks.... we created soup kitchens for blacks... we have food stamps for blacks... we give blacks welfare...' Who is "we?" Did Buchanan help write any of those policies or even VOTE for ANY of them? That is what "we" means... that he was a part of it.
Were those policies creates for black people or for poor people... people who need these services to survive?
Why is it that black people are often the recipient for these programs? Is there something "wrong" with them? Is it because they are black that they are poor? That is what it seems like Buchanan is saying... doesn't it?
I'm willing to bet anything Buchanan has actively opposed every single one of those programs he now feels the black community should thank him personally for giving them. What a fucking douchebag. WE didn't give them those programs, they had to fight tooth and nail to get them.
'"We" designed welfare for blacks.... we created soup kitchens for blacks... we have food stamps for blacks... we give blacks welfare...' Who is "we?" Did Buchanan help write any of those policies or even VOTE for ANY of them? That is what "we" means... that he was a part of it.
Were those policies creates for black people or for poor people... people who need these services to survive?
Why is it that black people are often the recipient for these programs? Is there something "wrong" with them? Is it because they are black that they are poor? That is what it seems like Buchanan is saying... doesn't it?
I'm willing to bet anything Buchanan has actively opposed every single one of those programs he now feels the black community should thank him personally for giving them. What a fucking douchebag. WE didn't give them those programs, they had to fight tooth and nail to get them.
Exactly my point... any program that takes from the rich and gives to the poor is going to be fervently opposed by Buchanan.
And it reminds me of when Americans say to the French, "WE saved your ass in WWII." Really? WE DID??? I don't remember that... I know I had a bunch of drinks the other night and blacked out but I don't remember traveling back in time and defeating the Axis of Evil.
WE didn't do shit.
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
I'm willing to bet anything Buchanan has actively opposed every single one of those programs he now feels the black community should thank him personally for giving them. What a fucking douchebag. WE didn't give them those programs, they had to fight tooth and nail to get them.
Exactly my point... any program that takes from the rich and gives to the poor is going to be fervently opposed by Buchanan.
And it reminds me of when Americans say to the French, "WE saved your ass in WWII." Really? WE DID??? I don't remember that... I know I had a bunch of drinks the other night and blacked out but I don't remember traveling back in time and defeating the Axis of Evil.
WE didn't do shit.
Yup. And as you pointed out, those programs go to whites as often as blacks. And I'm not convinced that after hundreds of years or slavery and then another hundred of Jim Crow and other outright discrimination, a few social efforts to "bring blacks into the mainstream" merits a ton of gratitude. It's damn close to too little, too late.
There is nothing said about killing anyone....I thank he is saying why all the bitching?......seems people have done plenty to help blacks.....but then again I really don't think discrimanation is about race anymore.....seems its more about class today.
Blacks should be GRATEFUL for slavery? How far gone do you have to be?
Grateful for slavery is not what he was saying....I think you twisted it a bit....
No, but this Christian nation nonsense always carries the subtext that everyone here should be Christian, which is apparent from his statement that the blacks should feel lucky that we took the time to convert them to Christianity after we tore them from their families and homeland to enslave them. Seems like a fair trade to me eh? 400 hundred years of involuntary servitude at the hands of whips and chains, but at least we gave them a Bible so it's cool right? Fuck the Christian nation nonsense.
And maybe I did drop the paragraph in between, but my statement still stands. We drag them across an ocean killing thousands along the way, enslave them for a few hundred years, then in the last 30-40 we throw them a few social programs and they're supposed to be grateful? In what world does that make moral sense? If a guy spend a decade beating the shit out of his wife and kids, should they be grateful to him when he makes a child support payment or two from jail? Fuck no.
But no one alive today had slaves, how can anyone alive today be the blame for slavery. Hopefully that part of history will never repeat.
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
I'm willing to bet anything Buchanan has actively opposed every single one of those programs he now feels the black community should thank him personally for giving them. What a fucking douchebag. WE didn't give them those programs, they had to fight tooth and nail to get them.
Exactly my point... any program that takes from the rich and gives to the poor is going to be fervently opposed by Buchanan.
And it reminds me of when Americans say to the French, "WE saved your ass in WWII." Really? WE DID??? I don't remember that... I know I had a bunch of drinks the other night and blacked out but I don't remember traveling back in time and defeating the Axis of Evil.
WE didn't do shit.
Yup. And as you pointed out, those programs go to whites as often as blacks. And I'm not convinced that after hundreds of years or slavery and then another hundred of Jim Crow and other outright discrimination, a few social efforts to "bring blacks into the mainstream" merits a ton of gratitude. It's damn close to too little, too late.
And that is the more important point. Statistically, blacks do receive more of these social programs... but is that because of demographic and environmental factors (two examples: Mom or Grandma is typically the only parent for many more black people.... drugs are easily accessible and marketed to black youth more than white youth) or is it because of some inherent flaw with black people? We know what Buchanan's opinion is, don't we?
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
There is nothing said about killing anyone....I thank he is saying why all the bitching?......seems people have done plenty to help blacks.....but then again I really don't think discrimanation is about race anymore.....seems its more about class today.
Blacks should be GRATEFUL for slavery? How far gone do you have to be?
Grateful for slavery is not what he was saying....I think you twisted it a bit....
No, but this Christian nation nonsense always carries the subtext that everyone here should be Christian, which is apparent from his statement that the blacks should feel lucky that we took the time to convert them to Christianity after we tore them from their families and homeland to enslave them. Seems like a fair trade to me eh? 400 hundred years of involuntary servitude at the hands of whips and chains, but at least we gave them a Bible so it's cool right? Fuck the Christian nation nonsense.
And maybe I did drop the paragraph in between, but my statement still stands. We drag them across an ocean killing thousands along the way, enslave them for a few hundred years, then in the last 30-40 we throw them a few social programs and they're supposed to be grateful? In what world does that make moral sense? If a guy spend a decade beating the shit out of his wife and kids, should they be grateful to him when he makes a child support payment or two from jail? Fuck no.
But no one alive today had slaves, how can anyone alive today be the blame for slavery. Hopefully that part of history will never repeat.
You're right, but it doesn't change the fact that they've got a right to be pissed off about it and unwilling to trust us when we say "I promise we're gonna be nice now!" Should we tell the Jew to just get over the Holocaust? And a LOT of people alive today ARE to blame for Jim Crow and other outright racism... that was only 40 years ago. That means basically every black person over 50 (and there are a lot) saw their fellows being firehosed in the streets of Alabama by white people, if they weren't some of the ones being firehosed themselves. Slavery and racism are NOT ancient history. Can you blame them for not being totally willing to trust white America's willingness to accept them and treat them as equals?
I'm not saying things haven't improved, they have. But I'm so fucking sick of whites acting all pissed off and like blacks should just get over it because it was SO long ago. :roll: It's a symptom of our ADD generation that we act like 1960 was practically ancient Greece. They were second class citizens that basically had no rights or equality until 40 years ago... that's in the lifetimes of MANY today. They would be stupid to just write that off and act like everything's gravy now. It's going to take a while for that to heal. We're on the way there, but let's not start acting like they're being irrational for having a hard time forgetting what this country was like just 1-2 generations ago. We've come a long way. But that doesn't mean the work is done.
You're right, but it doesn't change the fact that they've got a right to be pissed off about it and unwilling to trust us when we say "I promise we're gonna be nice now!" Should we tell the Jew to just get over the Holocaust? And a LOT of people alive today ARE to blame for Jim Crow and other outright racism... that was only 40 years ago. That means basically every black person over 50 (and there are a lot) saw their fellows being firehosed in the streets of Alabama by white people, if they weren't some of the ones being firehosed themselves. Slavery and racism are NOT ancient history. Can you blame them for not being totally willing to trust white America's willingness to accept them and treat them as equals?
I'm not saying things haven't improved, they have. But I'm so fucking sick of whites acting all pissed off and like blacks should just get over it because it was SO long ago. :roll: It's a symptom of our ADD generation that we act like 1960 was practically ancient Greece. They were second class citizens that basically had no rights or equality until 40 years ago... that's in the lifetimes of MANY today. They would be stupid to just write that off and act like everything's gravy now. It's going to take a while for that to heal. We're on the way there, but let's not start acting like they're being irrational for having a hard time forgetting what this country was like just 1-2 generations ago. We've come a long way. But that doesn't mean the work is done.
All I ask is that we don't use it as an excuse for everything. And that we don't continue ot make the same mistakes by looking at color first...be it racism or reverse discrimination (ie quotas, affirmative action, etc.).
You're right, but it doesn't change the fact that they've got a right to be pissed off about it and unwilling to trust us when we say "I promise we're gonna be nice now!" Should we tell the Jew to just get over the Holocaust? And a LOT of people alive today ARE to blame for Jim Crow and other outright racism... that was only 40 years ago. That means basically every black person over 50 (and there are a lot) saw their fellows being firehosed in the streets of Alabama by white people, if they weren't some of the ones being firehosed themselves. Slavery and racism are NOT ancient history. Can you blame them for not being totally willing to trust white America's willingness to accept them and treat them as equals?
I'm not saying things haven't improved, they have. But I'm so fucking sick of whites acting all pissed off and like blacks should just get over it because it was SO long ago. :roll: It's a symptom of our ADD generation that we act like 1960 was practically ancient Greece. They were second class citizens that basically had no rights or equality until 40 years ago... that's in the lifetimes of MANY today. They would be stupid to just write that off and act like everything's gravy now. It's going to take a while for that to heal. We're on the way there, but let's not start acting like they're being irrational for having a hard time forgetting what this country was like just 1-2 generations ago. We've come a long way. But that doesn't mean the work is done.
All I ask is that we don't use it as an excuse for everything. And that we don't continue ot make the same mistakes by looking at color first...be it racism or reverse discrimination (ie quotas, affirmative action, etc.).
Then you all need to get better reps/spokespersons than a piece of shit like Buchanan.
In addition, the whole affirmative action/quota thing is the most overblown myth I ever heard of. Quotas never existed and never will, they were struck down by the Supreme Court before anyone ever got hired through one. Affirmative action is similarly overblown... it's pretty minimal and this whole "better qualified whites keep getting passed over for borderline brain dead minorities" is nonsense. It's usually the last consideration, not the first. Though I'll grant that there's a lot to be said for dropping those boxes on all forms. But as a recent, short term effort to address hundreds of years of total exclusion from the job market and higher education, I think it's a pretty reasonable solution to a damned difficult problem. Let's face it, having a huge chunk of the population sitting as poor and hopeless as blacks were until the 60s is bad for social stability as a whole. We all benefit from trying to bring them up to speed a bit.
You're right, but it doesn't change the fact that they've got a right to be pissed off about it and unwilling to trust us when we say "I promise we're gonna be nice now!" Should we tell the Jew to just get over the Holocaust? And a LOT of people alive today ARE to blame for Jim Crow and other outright racism... that was only 40 years ago. That means basically every black person over 50 (and there are a lot) saw their fellows being firehosed in the streets of Alabama by white people, if they weren't some of the ones being firehosed themselves. Slavery and racism are NOT ancient history. Can you blame them for not being totally willing to trust white America's willingness to accept them and treat them as equals?
I'm not saying things haven't improved, they have. But I'm so fucking sick of whites acting all pissed off and like blacks should just get over it because it was SO long ago. :roll: It's a symptom of our ADD generation that we act like 1960 was practically ancient Greece. They were second class citizens that basically had no rights or equality until 40 years ago... that's in the lifetimes of MANY today. They would be stupid to just write that off and act like everything's gravy now. It's going to take a while for that to heal. We're on the way there, but let's not start acting like they're being irrational for having a hard time forgetting what this country was like just 1-2 generations ago. We've come a long way. But that doesn't mean the work is done.
All I ask is that we don't use it as an excuse for everything. And that we don't continue ot make the same mistakes by looking at color first...be it racism or reverse discrimination (ie quotas, affirmative action, etc.).
Then you all need to get better reps/spokespersons than a piece of shit like Buchanan.
In addition, the whole affirmative action/quota thing is the most overblown myth I ever heard of. Quotas never existed and never will, they were struck down by the Supreme Court before anyone ever got hired through one. Affirmative action is similarly overblown... it's pretty minimal and this whole "better qualified whites keep getting passed over for borderline brain dead minorities" is nonsense. It's usually the last consideration, not the first. Though I'll grant that there's a lot to be said for dropping those boxes on all forms. But as a recent, short term effort to address hundreds of years of total exclusion from the job market and higher education, I think it's a pretty reasonable solution to a damned difficult problem. Let's face it, having a huge chunk of the population sitting as poor and hopeless as blacks were until the 60s is bad for social stability as a whole. We all benefit from trying to bring them up to speed a bit.
Ok...you are way off if you think Affirmative Action is an overblown myth. I work for a very large company and it is a measurement ther depts/plants have...meeting a certain diversity level. It is an obvious extra checkmark for some.
Then you all need to get better reps/spokespersons than a piece of shit like Buchanan.
In addition, the whole affirmative action/quota thing is the most overblown myth I ever heard of. Quotas never existed and never will, they were struck down by the Supreme Court before anyone ever got hired through one. Affirmative action is similarly overblown... it's pretty minimal and this whole "better qualified whites keep getting passed over for borderline brain dead minorities" is nonsense. It's usually the last consideration, not the first. Though I'll grant that there's a lot to be said for dropping those boxes on all forms. But as a recent, short term effort to address hundreds of years of total exclusion from the job market and higher education, I think it's a pretty reasonable solution to a damned difficult problem. Let's face it, having a huge chunk of the population sitting as poor and hopeless as blacks were until the 60s is bad for social stability as a whole. We all benefit from trying to bring them up to speed a bit.
Ok...you are way off if you think Affirmative Action is an overblown myth. I work for a very large company and it is a measurement ther depts/plants have...meeting a certain diversity level. It is an obvious extra checkmark for some.
But is that self imposed by the company as an effort to rectify past discrimination, or is mandated by law? I rather suspect the former. The law generally prohibits discrimination and allows remedial measures to correct imbalances or foster a diverse workplace, but I know of no law that requires x-amounts of minorities. Nor am I aware of any law that even says if two candidates are equally qualified, you have to hire the black one. It simply doesn't exist. Companies choose to do this.
But is that self imposed by the company as an effort to rectify past discrimination, or is mandated by law? I rather suspect the former. The law generally prohibits discrimination and allows remedial measures to correct imbalances or foster a diverse workplace, but I know of no law that requires x-amounts of minorities. Nor am I aware of any law that even says if two candidates are equally qualified, you have to hire the black one. It simply doesn't exist. Companies choose to do this.
I see your point. But this is why it was so effective, even though it was "struck down by the Supreme COurt" it is still being used in many places.
I guess it's governed by activists like Jesse Jackson and white guilt. The PR is bad, so let's make sure we look good. BUt it doesn't matter if it's a law or not, it's reality.
But is that self imposed by the company as an effort to rectify past discrimination, or is mandated by law? I rather suspect the former. The law generally prohibits discrimination and allows remedial measures to correct imbalances or foster a diverse workplace, but I know of no law that requires x-amounts of minorities. Nor am I aware of any law that even says if two candidates are equally qualified, you have to hire the black one. It simply doesn't exist. Companies choose to do this.
I see your point. But this is why it was so effective, even though it was "struck down by the Supreme COurt" it is still being used in many places.
I guess it's governed by activists like Jesse Jackson and white guilt. The PR is bad, so let's make sure we look good. BUt it doesn't matter if it's a law or not, it's reality.
No arguing that. There are definitely those that abuse the system and to an extent I've no doubt some companies just do it to cover their asses in case they don't hire someone and that person sues. But I think this is an issue of putting the cart before the horse. I truly believe this sort of thing was and has been necessary to an extent, and that it will increasingly disappear over the next generation or two. Self-imposed hiring guidelines are hardly an evil thing, and as a free market guy, surely you can't be that upset over companies choosing to do this based on market forces like the possibility of bad PR? It's the cost of doing business. Besides, lawsuits like that are harder and harder to win anymore, it's just that we only hear about the most absurd stories in the news because of people like Jackson and Sharpton. Overall, I think this is a problem that is going to solve itself. We've made a lot of progress in 40 years, and another 40 could render these concerns moot. But I don't think the problem is affirmative action itself, which is a legit business practice. It's publicity hounds abusing the system... and I don't think a fe bad apples are cause to condemn what has largely been a pretty good social policy of rectifying past discrimination that has effectively revolutionized the American workplace for the better on the whole.
Of course, the great irony will be that in 40 years whites will be a minority as much as blacks, and latinos and hispanics will be the majority. Then we'll get to hear folks like Buchanan saying how unfair hispanic prejudice is and how we need affirmative action to get whites back to work
I see your point. But this is why it was so effective, even though it was "struck down by the Supreme COurt" it is still being used in many places.
I guess it's governed by activists like Jesse Jackson and white guilt. The PR is bad, so let's make sure we look good. BUt it doesn't matter if it's a law or not, it's reality.[/quote]
No arguing that. There are definitely those that abuse the system and to an extent I've no doubt some companies just do it to cover their asses in case they don't hire someone and that person sues. But I think this is an issue of putting the cart before the horse. I truly believe this sort of thing was and has been necessary to an extent, and that it will increasingly disappear over the next generation or two. Self-imposed hiring guidelines are hardly an evil thing, and as a free market guy, surely you can't be that upset over companies choosing to do this based on market forces like the possibility of bad PR? It's the cost of doing business. Besides, lawsuits like that are harder and harder to win anymore, it's just that we only hear about the most absurd stories in the news because of people like Jackson and Sharpton. Overall, I think this is a problem that is going to solve itself. We've made a lot of progress in 40 years, and another 40 could render these concerns moot. But I don't think the problem is affirmative action itself, which is a legit business practice. It's publicity hounds abusing the system... and I don't think a fe bad apples are cause to condemn what has largely been a pretty good social policy of rectifying past discrimination that has effectively revolutionized the American workplace for the better on the whole.
Of course, the great irony will be that in 40 years whites will be a minority as much as blacks, and latinos and hispanics will be the majority. Then we'll get to hear folks like Buchanan saying how unfair hispanic prejudice is and how we need affirmative action to get whites back to work [/quote]
I Think Buchanan is saying how long do whites have to pay for the slavery era or be accused of holding the black man down. What else do they want and when will it be over? Seeing that
everyone today agrees slavery was an atrousity. Wrongs in History should not be used as an excuse today. Be yellow black or white we are all equal.
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
I Think Buchanan is saying how long do whites have to pay for the slavery era or be accused of holding the black man down. What else do they want and when will it be over? Seeing that
everyone today agrees slavery was an atrousity. Wrongs in History should not be used as an excuse today. Be yellow black or white we are all equal.
And I'm saying AT LEAST until all those of the generation that grew up under Jim Crow have passed on. How long before you forget 9/11 and let the Arab world off the hook for that atrocity? I bet you carry that mistrust to your grave, as you should. Let's give the black community the same consideration. Until there are no blacks alive that remember living white neighbors hosing them down in the streets, they're entitled to a bit of a grudge and mistrust. Just like we're entitled to not trust the Arab world until they can prove over the long haul that something like 9/11 is not going to happen again.
I Think Buchanan is saying how long do whites have to pay for the slavery era or be accused of holding the black man down. What else do they want and when will it be over? Seeing that
everyone today agrees slavery was an atrousity. Wrongs in History should not be used as an excuse today. Be yellow black or white we are all equal.
And I'm saying AT LEAST until all those of the generation that grew up under Jim Crow have passed on. How long before you forget 9/11 and let the Arab world off the hook for that atrocity? I bet you carry that mistrust to your grave, as you should. Let's give the black community the same consideration. Until there are no blacks alive that remember living white neighbors hosing them down in the streets, they're entitled to a bit of a grudge and mistrust. Just like we're entitled to not trust the Arab world until they can prove over the long haul that something like 9/11 is not going to happen again.
Personally, I don't think that anyone is "entitled" to any emotional reaction. Feel free to try to persuade me that "healthy cultural paranoia" is a good thing ... Maybe insofar as it could help a black individual recognize a bona fide instance of discrimination and then do something about this. However, this is different from having such a large chip on one's shoulder that one starts seeing "the enemy" in situations where said enemy does not exist. It might come as a surprise to you that some non-minorities know what prejudice feels like, soulsinging. Some of your comments about "whites" are as ranty and inflammatory as the remarks about black people that set you off.
I Think Buchanan is saying how long do whites have to pay for the slavery era or be accused of holding the black man down. What else do they want and when will it be over? Seeing that
everyone today agrees slavery was an atrousity. Wrongs in History should not be used as an excuse today. Be yellow black or white we are all equal.
And I'm saying AT LEAST until all those of the generation that grew up under Jim Crow have passed on. How long before you forget 9/11 and let the Arab world off the hook for that atrocity? I bet you carry that mistrust to your grave, as you should. Let's give the black community the same consideration. Until there are no blacks alive that remember living white neighbors hosing them down in the streets, they're entitled to a bit of a grudge and mistrust. Just like we're entitled to not trust the Arab world until they can prove over the long haul that something like 9/11 is not going to happen again.
Personally, I don't think that anyone is "entitled" to any emotional reaction. Feel free to try to persuade me that "healthy cultural paranoia" is a good thing ... Maybe insofar as it could help a black individual recognize a bona fide instance of discrimination and then do something about this. However, this is different from having such a large chip on one's shoulder that one starts seeing "the enemy" in situations where said enemy does not exist. It might come as a surprise to you that some non-minorities know what prejudice feels like, soulsinging. Some of your comments about "whites" are as ranty and inflammatory as the remarks about black people that set you off.
There used to be a time you could not get a decent job if you had an over abundance of tattoos. You would be labeled a rebel, lawbreaker, or maybe a bad ass biker
All Long haired men were considered dirty hippies, and could not find good employment until they cut their hair.
Unwed Mothers were considered to be a disgrace.
The jews who lived thru the holocaust.
One for today would be the elderly, senior citizens
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
And I'm saying AT LEAST until all those of the generation that grew up under Jim Crow have passed on. How long before you forget 9/11 and let the Arab world off the hook for that atrocity? I bet you carry that mistrust to your grave, as you should. Let's give
feel free to enlighten me.
I don't know what you're asking. Enlighten you about what? I said my piece.
And I'm saying AT LEAST until all those of the generation that grew up under Jim Crow have passed on. How long before you forget 9/11 and let the Arab world off the hook for that atrocity? I bet you carry that mistrust to your grave, as you should. Let's give
feel free to enlighten me.
I don't know what you're asking. Enlighten you about what? I said my piece.
All this prejudice you've been subjected to as a white man. All the times you got pulled over for DWB.
I never said cultural paranoia is a good thing or that the black community is correct not to trust white America. I think we have come a very long way and a lot of the mistrust is unjustified now. But I also think it's perfectly understandable that they do have a bit of paranoia and that ranting and whining about how they should be grateful to us and just get over it is not going to help anything. We should just shut our mouths and prove them wrong through our actions, lead by example. Not by throwing white male rage fits about how we're so oppressed and blacks have it made here. Actions speak far louder than words and those tantrums help nothing.
I never said cultural paranoia is a good thing or that the black community is correct not to trust white America. I think we have come a very long way and a lot of the mistrust is unjustified now. But I also think it's perfectly understandable that they do have a bit of paranoia and that ranting and whining about how they should be grateful to us and just get over it is not going to help anything. We should just shut our mouths and prove them wrong through our actions, lead by example. Not by throwing white male rage fits about how we're so oppressed and blacks have it made here. Actions speak far louder than words and those tantrums help nothing.
At the risk of being accused of having a "white man rage fit" or tantrum, I will share ...
I grew up in a northern community that was largely aboriginal ... I am part aboriginal myself, but a small part. I got bullied, physically attacked, and harassed for being white, as did other people in my family. So yes, I actually DO know what these manifestations of racism feel like, on a personal and emotional level. I went on to marry an aborginal woman and I have learned how to appreciate and value a culture that I feel suits many of my values better than mainstream white society does. But in order to do this, I had to move past experiences like being beaten to the point of suffering broken bones. Can I understand why some people get incredibly bitter after being victimized for what they look like? Absolutely. But if one fails to move past these sorts of experiences, what happens? One stays bitter, angry, and ultimately powerless ... There is a lot to be learned from suffering. Is this the same thing as my ancestors being enslaved? Absolutely not. I will point out, though, that in some ways, being a direct victim is a lot worse than inheriting a history legacy. Many blacks in the U.S. in fact belong to the middle class. Many are actually quite wealthy. How many white men are poor? Millions. I personally know several people that have been on the receiving end of affirmative action policies that likely left them unemployed. Like cincy said, its not a myth. You can dismiss all this as whining, or you could attempt to see that some human experiences (like injustice or prejudice) are probably universal. Sure, I don't doubt that a lot of ranting comes from privedged people who are just being defensive. I'd be wary of painting everyone with that brush, though, lest you inadvertently do what you are railing so hard against.
I never said cultural paranoia is a good thing or that the black community is correct not to trust white America. I think we have come a very long way and a lot of the mistrust is unjustified now. But I also think it's perfectly understandable that they do have a bit of paranoia and that ranting and whining about how they should be grateful to us and just get over it is not going to help anything. We should just shut our mouths and prove them wrong through our actions, lead by example. Not by throwing white male rage fits about how we're so oppressed and blacks have it made here. Actions speak far louder than words and those tantrums help nothing.
At the risk of being accused of having a "white man rage fit" or tantrum, I will share ...
I grew up in a northern community that was largely aboriginal ... I am part aboriginal myself, but a small part. I got bullied, physically attacked, and harassed for being white, as did other people in my family. So yes, I actually DO know what these manifestations of racism feel like, on a personal and emotional level. I went on to marry an aborginal woman and I have learned how to appreciate and value a culture that I feel suits many of my values better than mainstream white society does. But in order to do this, I had to move past experiences like being beaten to the point of suffering broken bones. Can I understand why some people get incredibly bitter after being victimized for what they look like? Absolutely. But if one fails to move past these sorts of experiences, what happens? One stays bitter, angry, and ultimately powerless ... There is a lot to be learned from suffering. Is this the same thing as my ancestors being enslaved? Absolutely not. I will point out, though, that in some ways, being a direct victim is a lot worse than inheriting a history legacy. Many blacks in the U.S. in fact belong to the middle class. Many are actually quite wealthy. How many white men are poor? Millions. I personally know several people that have been on the receiving end of affirmative action policies that likely left them unemployed. Like cincy said, its not a myth. You can dismiss all this as whining, or you could attempt to see that some human experiences (like injustice or prejudice) are probably universal. Sure, I don't doubt that a lot of ranting comes from privedged people who are just being defensive. I'd be wary of painting everyone with that brush, though, lest you inadvertently do what you are railing so hard against.
What is a largely aboriginal northern community? I'm confused... I've never heard that term. What does it mean? That sounds pretty horrific.
Comments
BUCHANAN TO OBAMA
By Patrick J. Buchanan
Barack says we need to have a conversation about race in America . Fair enough. But this time, it has to be a two-way conversation. White America needs to be heard from, not just lectured to... This time, the Silent Majority needs to have its convictions, grievances and demands heard. And among them are these:
First, America has been the best country on earth for black folks. It was here that 600,000 black people, brought from Africa in slave ships, grew into a community of 40 million, were introduced to Christian salvation, and reached the greatest levels of freedom and prosperity blacks have ever known. Wright ought to go down on his knees and thank God he is an American.
Second, no people anywhere has done more to lift up blacks than white Americans. Untold trillions have been spent since the ' 60s on welfare, food stamps, rent supplements, Section 8 housing, Pell grants, student loans, legal services, Medicaid, Earned Income Tax Credits and poverty programs designed to bring the African-American community into the mainstream.. Governments, businesses and colleges have engaged in discrimination against white folks -- with affirmative action, contract set-asides and quotas -- to advance black applicants over white applicants. Churches, foundations, civic groups, schools and individuals all over America have donated their time and money to support soup kitchens, adult education, day care, retirement and nursing homes for blacks.
We hear the grievances. Where is the gratitude???
Barack talks about new 'ladders of opportunity' for blacks. Let him go to Altoona ? And Johnstown , and ask the white kids in Catholic schools how many were visited lately by Ivy League recruiters handing out scholarships for 'deserving' white kids.? Is white America really responsible for the fact that the crime and incarceration rates for African-Americans are seven times those of white America ? Is it really white America 's fault that illegitimacy in the African-American community has hit 70 percent and the black dropout rate from high schools in some cities has reached 50 percent?
Is that the fault of white America or, first and foremost, a failure of the black community itself?
As for racism, its ugliest manifestation is in interracial crime, and especially interracial crimes of violence. Is Barack Obama aware that while white criminals choose black victims 3 percent of the time, black criminals choose white victims 45 percent of the time?
Is Barack aware that black-on-white rapes are 100 times more common than the reverse, that black-on-white robberies were 139 times as common in the first three years of this decade as the reverse?
We have all heard ad nauseam from the Rev. Al about Tawana Brawley, the Duke rape case and Jena . And all turned out to be hoaxes. But about the epidemic of black assaults on whites that are real, we hear nothing.
Sorry, Barack, some of us have heard it all before, about 40 years and 40 trillion tax dollars ago.
We are a Christian Nation even if Mr. Obama says we are not.
This needs to be passed around because, this is a message everyone needs to hear!!!
Onward Christian soldiers! Kill the infidels and drive out the seculars polluting our beautiful city on a hill!
I'm cool with removing race from all applications, but this Christian nation thing is fucking bullshit and it's a message that should definitely not be passed around. That's the kind of message they pass around in places like Iran and Saudi Arabia.
Where do you get this from? I'm asking because I'm curious, I've never heard or read anything like this. I didn't major in history in college, but I'm not totally ignorant on the subject and I've never in my life heard anyone claim the founding fathers were strongly anti-slavery and carefully plotted the constitutional drafting in order to one day combat slavery. My understanding was that they didn't really give a damn one way or the other, but they wanted to make sure the south couldn't pad their numbers and influence by using their slaves to get increased representation when everyone knew those slaves weren't going to get to vote. The northern aristocrats didn't want to have to share any more power with southern farmers than they had to.
Holy shit, I missed that. That's the most disgusting shit I ever read and totally destroys any legit point he might try to make. Blacks should be GRATEFUL for slavery? How far gone do you have to be?
Blacks should be GRATEFUL for slavery? How far gone do you have to be?
Grateful for slavery is not what he was saying....I think you twisted it a bit....
'"We" designed welfare for blacks.... we created soup kitchens for blacks... we have food stamps for blacks... we give blacks welfare...' Who is "we?" Did Buchanan help write any of those policies or even VOTE for ANY of them? That is what "we" means... that he was a part of it.
Were those policies creates for black people or for poor people... people who need these services to survive?
Why is it that black people are often the recipient for these programs? Is there something "wrong" with them? Is it because they are black that they are poor? That is what it seems like Buchanan is saying... doesn't it?
No, but this Christian nation nonsense always carries the subtext that everyone here should be Christian, which is apparent from his statement that the blacks should feel lucky that we took the time to convert them to Christianity after we tore them from their families and homeland to enslave them. Seems like a fair trade to me eh? 400 hundred years of involuntary servitude at the hands of whips and chains, but at least we gave them a Bible so it's cool right? Fuck the Christian nation nonsense.
And maybe I did drop the paragraph in between, but my statement still stands. We drag them across an ocean killing thousands along the way, enslave them for a few hundred years, then in the last 30-40 we throw them a few social programs and they're supposed to be grateful? In what world does that make moral sense? If a guy spend a decade beating the shit out of his wife and kids, should they be grateful to him when he makes a child support payment or two from jail? Fuck no.
I'm willing to bet anything Buchanan has actively opposed every single one of those programs he now feels the black community should thank him personally for giving them. What a fucking douchebag. WE didn't give them those programs, they had to fight tooth and nail to get them.
Exactly my point... any program that takes from the rich and gives to the poor is going to be fervently opposed by Buchanan.
And it reminds me of when Americans say to the French, "WE saved your ass in WWII." Really? WE DID??? I don't remember that... I know I had a bunch of drinks the other night and blacked out but I don't remember traveling back in time and defeating the Axis of Evil.
WE didn't do shit.
Yup. And as you pointed out, those programs go to whites as often as blacks. And I'm not convinced that after hundreds of years or slavery and then another hundred of Jim Crow and other outright discrimination, a few social efforts to "bring blacks into the mainstream" merits a ton of gratitude. It's damn close to too little, too late.
But no one alive today had slaves, how can anyone alive today be the blame for slavery. Hopefully that part of history will never repeat.
And that is the more important point. Statistically, blacks do receive more of these social programs... but is that because of demographic and environmental factors (two examples: Mom or Grandma is typically the only parent for many more black people.... drugs are easily accessible and marketed to black youth more than white youth) or is it because of some inherent flaw with black people? We know what Buchanan's opinion is, don't we?
You're right, but it doesn't change the fact that they've got a right to be pissed off about it and unwilling to trust us when we say "I promise we're gonna be nice now!" Should we tell the Jew to just get over the Holocaust? And a LOT of people alive today ARE to blame for Jim Crow and other outright racism... that was only 40 years ago. That means basically every black person over 50 (and there are a lot) saw their fellows being firehosed in the streets of Alabama by white people, if they weren't some of the ones being firehosed themselves. Slavery and racism are NOT ancient history. Can you blame them for not being totally willing to trust white America's willingness to accept them and treat them as equals?
I'm not saying things haven't improved, they have. But I'm so fucking sick of whites acting all pissed off and like blacks should just get over it because it was SO long ago. :roll: It's a symptom of our ADD generation that we act like 1960 was practically ancient Greece. They were second class citizens that basically had no rights or equality until 40 years ago... that's in the lifetimes of MANY today. They would be stupid to just write that off and act like everything's gravy now. It's going to take a while for that to heal. We're on the way there, but let's not start acting like they're being irrational for having a hard time forgetting what this country was like just 1-2 generations ago. We've come a long way. But that doesn't mean the work is done.
All I ask is that we don't use it as an excuse for everything. And that we don't continue ot make the same mistakes by looking at color first...be it racism or reverse discrimination (ie quotas, affirmative action, etc.).
Then you all need to get better reps/spokespersons than a piece of shit like Buchanan.
In addition, the whole affirmative action/quota thing is the most overblown myth I ever heard of. Quotas never existed and never will, they were struck down by the Supreme Court before anyone ever got hired through one. Affirmative action is similarly overblown... it's pretty minimal and this whole "better qualified whites keep getting passed over for borderline brain dead minorities" is nonsense. It's usually the last consideration, not the first. Though I'll grant that there's a lot to be said for dropping those boxes on all forms. But as a recent, short term effort to address hundreds of years of total exclusion from the job market and higher education, I think it's a pretty reasonable solution to a damned difficult problem. Let's face it, having a huge chunk of the population sitting as poor and hopeless as blacks were until the 60s is bad for social stability as a whole. We all benefit from trying to bring them up to speed a bit.
Ok...you are way off if you think Affirmative Action is an overblown myth. I work for a very large company and it is a measurement ther depts/plants have...meeting a certain diversity level. It is an obvious extra checkmark for some.
But is that self imposed by the company as an effort to rectify past discrimination, or is mandated by law? I rather suspect the former. The law generally prohibits discrimination and allows remedial measures to correct imbalances or foster a diverse workplace, but I know of no law that requires x-amounts of minorities. Nor am I aware of any law that even says if two candidates are equally qualified, you have to hire the black one. It simply doesn't exist. Companies choose to do this.
I see your point. But this is why it was so effective, even though it was "struck down by the Supreme COurt" it is still being used in many places.
I guess it's governed by activists like Jesse Jackson and white guilt.
No arguing that. There are definitely those that abuse the system and to an extent I've no doubt some companies just do it to cover their asses in case they don't hire someone and that person sues. But I think this is an issue of putting the cart before the horse. I truly believe this sort of thing was and has been necessary to an extent, and that it will increasingly disappear over the next generation or two. Self-imposed hiring guidelines are hardly an evil thing, and as a free market guy, surely you can't be that upset over companies choosing to do this based on market forces like the possibility of bad PR? It's the cost of doing business. Besides, lawsuits like that are harder and harder to win anymore, it's just that we only hear about the most absurd stories in the news because of people like Jackson and Sharpton. Overall, I think this is a problem that is going to solve itself. We've made a lot of progress in 40 years, and another 40 could render these concerns moot. But I don't think the problem is affirmative action itself, which is a legit business practice. It's publicity hounds abusing the system... and I don't think a fe bad apples are cause to condemn what has largely been a pretty good social policy of rectifying past discrimination that has effectively revolutionized the American workplace for the better on the whole.
Of course, the great irony will be that in 40 years whites will be a minority as much as blacks, and latinos and hispanics will be the majority. Then we'll get to hear folks like Buchanan saying how unfair hispanic prejudice is and how we need affirmative action to get whites back to work
I guess it's governed by activists like Jesse Jackson and white guilt.
No arguing that. There are definitely those that abuse the system and to an extent I've no doubt some companies just do it to cover their asses in case they don't hire someone and that person sues. But I think this is an issue of putting the cart before the horse. I truly believe this sort of thing was and has been necessary to an extent, and that it will increasingly disappear over the next generation or two. Self-imposed hiring guidelines are hardly an evil thing, and as a free market guy, surely you can't be that upset over companies choosing to do this based on market forces like the possibility of bad PR? It's the cost of doing business. Besides, lawsuits like that are harder and harder to win anymore, it's just that we only hear about the most absurd stories in the news because of people like Jackson and Sharpton. Overall, I think this is a problem that is going to solve itself. We've made a lot of progress in 40 years, and another 40 could render these concerns moot. But I don't think the problem is affirmative action itself, which is a legit business practice. It's publicity hounds abusing the system... and I don't think a fe bad apples are cause to condemn what has largely been a pretty good social policy of rectifying past discrimination that has effectively revolutionized the American workplace for the better on the whole.
Of course, the great irony will be that in 40 years whites will be a minority as much as blacks, and latinos and hispanics will be the majority. Then we'll get to hear folks like Buchanan saying how unfair hispanic prejudice is and how we need affirmative action to get whites back to work
I Think Buchanan is saying how long do whites have to pay for the slavery era or be accused of holding the black man down. What else do they want and when will it be over? Seeing that
everyone today agrees slavery was an atrousity. Wrongs in History should not be used as an excuse today. Be yellow black or white we are all equal.
And I'm saying AT LEAST until all those of the generation that grew up under Jim Crow have passed on. How long before you forget 9/11 and let the Arab world off the hook for that atrocity? I bet you carry that mistrust to your grave, as you should. Let's give the black community the same consideration. Until there are no blacks alive that remember living white neighbors hosing them down in the streets, they're entitled to a bit of a grudge and mistrust. Just like we're entitled to not trust the Arab world until they can prove over the long haul that something like 9/11 is not going to happen again.
Personally, I don't think that anyone is "entitled" to any emotional reaction. Feel free to try to persuade me that "healthy cultural paranoia" is a good thing ... Maybe insofar as it could help a black individual recognize a bona fide instance of discrimination and then do something about this. However, this is different from having such a large chip on one's shoulder that one starts seeing "the enemy" in situations where said enemy does not exist. It might come as a surprise to you that some non-minorities know what prejudice feels like, soulsinging. Some of your comments about "whites" are as ranty and inflammatory as the remarks about black people that set you off.
feel free to enlighten me.
There used to be a time you could not get a decent job if you had an over abundance of tattoos. You would be labeled a rebel, lawbreaker, or maybe a bad ass biker
All Long haired men were considered dirty hippies, and could not find good employment until they cut their hair.
Unwed Mothers were considered to be a disgrace.
The jews who lived thru the holocaust.
One for today would be the elderly, senior citizens
I don't know what you're asking. Enlighten you about what? I said my piece.
All this prejudice you've been subjected to as a white man. All the times you got pulled over for DWB.
I never said cultural paranoia is a good thing or that the black community is correct not to trust white America. I think we have come a very long way and a lot of the mistrust is unjustified now. But I also think it's perfectly understandable that they do have a bit of paranoia and that ranting and whining about how they should be grateful to us and just get over it is not going to help anything. We should just shut our mouths and prove them wrong through our actions, lead by example. Not by throwing white male rage fits about how we're so oppressed and blacks have it made here. Actions speak far louder than words and those tantrums help nothing.
At the risk of being accused of having a "white man rage fit" or tantrum, I will share ...
I grew up in a northern community that was largely aboriginal ... I am part aboriginal myself, but a small part. I got bullied, physically attacked, and harassed for being white, as did other people in my family. So yes, I actually DO know what these manifestations of racism feel like, on a personal and emotional level. I went on to marry an aborginal woman and I have learned how to appreciate and value a culture that I feel suits many of my values better than mainstream white society does. But in order to do this, I had to move past experiences like being beaten to the point of suffering broken bones. Can I understand why some people get incredibly bitter after being victimized for what they look like? Absolutely. But if one fails to move past these sorts of experiences, what happens? One stays bitter, angry, and ultimately powerless ... There is a lot to be learned from suffering. Is this the same thing as my ancestors being enslaved? Absolutely not. I will point out, though, that in some ways, being a direct victim is a lot worse than inheriting a history legacy. Many blacks in the U.S. in fact belong to the middle class. Many are actually quite wealthy. How many white men are poor? Millions. I personally know several people that have been on the receiving end of affirmative action policies that likely left them unemployed. Like cincy said, its not a myth. You can dismiss all this as whining, or you could attempt to see that some human experiences (like injustice or prejudice) are probably universal. Sure, I don't doubt that a lot of ranting comes from privedged people who are just being defensive. I'd be wary of painting everyone with that brush, though, lest you inadvertently do what you are railing so hard against.
What is a largely aboriginal northern community? I'm confused... I've never heard that term. What does it mean? That sounds pretty horrific.