You're right. the right NEVER argues for smaller government while at the same time asking the government to step in and regular our private sex lives or medical decisions to better reflect their personal values.
It is just as hypocritical for both. The true difference is it comes off much more dangerous from the right. Michael Moore does not incite violence with his rhetoric. And even then, I don't recall him ever being anti-government... 3 of his movies are anti-corporations, not government (health care and auto industry, then gun control). Only Faherenheit 9/11 was remotely close and it wasn't anti-government so much as anti-Bush (and a bad movie). But the bottom line is nobody on the left killed anyone over their disdain for Dubya the last 8 years. Obama has been in office 9 months and the whole time the right has been skewering him with accusations of socialiam, nazism, racism, and even terrorism. The result? 3 people being murdered by whacko right wingers empowered by the outrage of people like Glen Beck. Tell me the last time a left-wing whacko killed anybody.
I'm not a fan of either side so I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm just saying that both sides rail against the government, but in my opinion it makes a lot less sense coming from the left.
As far as regulating private sex lives, I'm not really sure what you mean there. If you're talking about the government potentially passing a law to ban abortion, I don't really see that as government getting bigger. It's a law, not a government agency.
I'll agree with you about the right talking trash about Obama, but that hasn't been any worse than what Bush was getting so I guess the more things change, the more they stay the same which is why I just don't like the government in general.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
You're right. the right NEVER argues for smaller government while at the same time asking the government to step in and regular our private sex lives or medical decisions to better reflect their personal values.
I seem to remember a few years back, Republicans were writing bills to intervene in the health care decisions of Terry Schaivo (who was brain dead) and her husband.
Tell me the last time a left-wing whacko killed anybody.
I don't remember a left-wing group showing up to protests with assault rifles holding signs saying it was time to "water the tree of liberty with blood."
Saying that he left is just the same is just more right-wing bullshit like "Death Panels" or "Forcing health care on us" or "intelligent design."
You get it from the other side too. Do you think Michael Moore is encouraging people to love the government?
The the #$%^ are you on about? Michael Moore has never suggested that people should be afraid of Census takers. Michael Moore has never encouraged people to be afraid of Government workers. Michael Moore hasn't told people that the Government would be forcing their kids into labour and "Re-education camps." Nor has he told people not to take part in the Census. He also hasn't told people he wants people "Armed And Dangerous" against the Government. Michelle BAchman has done and said ALL those things.
Michelle Bachman has suggested that the Census is Big Brother coming for you and Sarah Palin has said that the Government will have a death panel that will decide that you're not "worth" keeping alive and execute you in the street. You can try to spin this any way but you and I both know you're making it up.
The issue I see is that it comes off more hypocritical from when it comes from the left. In other words, at least the right generally wants to see smaller government and that's why they are always talking against it and trying to limit it.
Well, you'd like people to think that, anyway. If the right wanted "Smaller Government" why did government get bigger under George W Bush and why are they all sponsoring votes to decide if my marriage is valid or not? I don't remember being given the chance to vote on YOUR marriage. Was that before I moved to America?
The left criticizes the government on lots of issues, but on many other issues its answer is to let the government handle it. For example, The left will bitch and moan about privacy issues and big brother, yet in the next breath push for the government to take over health care and run everyone's lives.
Yes. Because "Health Care" runs people's lives. Don't you wish they'd just close down the hospitals and kill all the doctors so we'd be free of that evil "health care?"
And for the record, allowing people access to a very low-level, bare-bones health care if they can't afford anything else isn't "Pushing" it on anyone. That's why it's called an "Option."
Are you really that ill-informed on stuff?
Apparently I'm as ill-informed as you are. Perhaps it's just our personal bias's that taint our viewpoints.
Granted, I threw Michael Moore out there as a quick example and perhaps it was a poor one.
My point is basically that both sides rail against the government, but the left turns around and seems to call for the government to get bigger and have more control. I think it's pretty clear that if the government runs health care that the government is going to have more control over people's lives. It's pretty hard to argue against that. The fact that you took what I said and equated it with closing down hospitals and killing doctors probably speaks volumes as to where your opinions come from.
My only answer as to why the government became bigger under Bush is probably that he wasn't acting true to his political affiliation.
Did Sarah Palin really say "execute you in the street"? If she did, she's an idiot.
On the marriage issue I've been consistent. I don't want the government sanctioning or banning anyone's marriage.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I'm not a fan of either side so I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm just saying that both sides rail against the government, but in my opinion it makes a lot less sense coming from the left.
As far as regulating private sex lives, I'm not really sure what you mean there. If you're talking about the government potentially passing a law to ban abortion, I don't really see that as government getting bigger. It's a law, not a government agency.
I'll agree with you about the right talking trash about Obama, but that hasn't been any worse than what Bush was getting so I guess the more things change, the more they stay the same which is why I just don't like the government in general.
And I'm saying that's absurd to claim it makes less sense from the left. How is is less sensible to say "i want the government to provide services i can take advantage of while staying out of my private life" than to say "i want the government to stay out of my bank account but they're welcome to come to my home and make sure i'm not having gay sex."
No, im not talking about abortion, i'm talking about abstinence-only sex ed, creationism, 10 commandments in court, anti-sodomy laws, porn bans, drug laws, miscegenation (sp?) laws, warrantless wiretaps of your phone, etc. All causes championed by the right while they scream about the government regulating our lives too much.
You are right that the talking trash about Obama is no different than what was said about Bush, but I notice you, like every other right-leaning person here, dodges the second part of that question. How many leftists went out and murdered people after being fired up by Michael Moore or Bill Maher? We've had 3 political killings this year alone since the right went into overdrive against Obama. Obama gets far more death threats than Bush ever did. There is more violence on the right, period. Talk is cheap and I couldn't care less what they say about Obama. What concerns me is that they're doing it in a way that incites violence to a degree that the left never has.
You're right. the right NEVER argues for smaller government while at the same time asking the government to step in and regular our private sex lives or medical decisions to better reflect their personal values.
I seem to remember a few years back, Republicans were writing bills to intervene in the health care decisions of Terry Schaivo (who was brain dead) and her husband.
I'd forgotten about that one. Classic. Then: government needs to step in between this husband and wife to make her medical decisions for her. Now: government should have no say in your medical options! Define hypocrisy...
I'm not a fan of either side so I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm just saying that both sides rail against the government, but in my opinion it makes a lot less sense coming from the left.
As far as regulating private sex lives, I'm not really sure what you mean there. If you're talking about the government potentially passing a law to ban abortion, I don't really see that as government getting bigger. It's a law, not a government agency.
I'll agree with you about the right talking trash about Obama, but that hasn't been any worse than what Bush was getting so I guess the more things change, the more they stay the same which is why I just don't like the government in general.
And I'm saying that's absurd to claim it makes less sense from the left. How is is less sensible to say "i want the government to provide services i can take advantage of while staying out of my private life" than to say "i want the government to stay out of my bank account but they're welcome to come to my home and make sure i'm not having gay sex."
I don't know how the government can provide health care and stay out of anyone's private life.
Does the government come to anyone's house and makes sure they're not having gay sex? I wasn't aware that was happening.
No, im not talking about abortion, i'm talking about abstinence-only sex ed, creationism, 10 commandments in court, anti-sodomy laws, porn bans, drug laws, miscegenation (sp?) laws, warrantless wiretaps of your phone, etc. All causes championed by the right while they scream about the government regulating our lives too much.
I guess my only answer to that is that the "right" is not just a single person. It's a spectrum. Some on the right may be calling for those things and others might be calling for smaller government. I think the trap is that we pick and choose examples to paint the picture however we want it to be.
Personally, I'm against all of those things...but then again I don't consider myself truly on the right. I just want the government to be smaller.
You are right that the talking trash about Obama is no different than what was said about Bush, but I notice you, like every other right-leaning person here, dodges the second part of that question. How many leftists went out and murdered people after being fired up by Michael Moore or Bill Maher? We've had 3 political killings this year alone since the right went into overdrive against Obama. Obama gets far more death threats than Bush ever did. There is more violence on the right, period. Talk is cheap and I couldn't care less what they say about Obama. What concerns me is that they're doing it in a way that incites violence to a degree that the left never has.
I'm not informed enough to make the correlation between political killings and Obama's presidency or death threats. Are you sure there weren't any political killings during Bush's reign? How do you count the death threats, do you have a source for that.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Granted, I threw Michael Moore out there as a quick example and perhaps it was a poor one.
Well then here's your chance. Can you come up with a left-wing politician who's suggested that the Census was Big Brother coming for us? can you come up with a left-wing politician who's said that the Government is lead by a Kenyan Terrorist, said that they want people "Armed And Dangerous" against the Government or that the government will force people to face "Death Panels?"
I think it's pretty clear that if the government runs health care that the government is going to have more control over people's lives. It's pretty hard to argue against that.
But the Government won't be running health care, they'll have a publicly funded insurance program for people who can't afford a private one. How is that "running" health care?
And we're talking about a dead Government worker. When Census takers start ending up hanging from trees in Vermont or when the flower children start showing up with hand grenades to protests... I'll agree both sides are he same.
Does the government come to anyone's house and makes sure they're not having gay sex? I wasn't aware that was happening.
Actually... they are. Or.. they were until just recently.
In 1998, John Geddes Lawrence and Tyron Garner were arrested for having gay sex in the privacy of Lawrence's home in Houston, Texas.
Republican Congressman Rick Santorum said that gay sex in the privacy of your own home should be illegal and that the men should be thrown in jail. He then said that "If the Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual [gay] sex within your home, then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery. You have the right to anything."
Granted, I threw Michael Moore out there as a quick example and perhaps it was a poor one.
Well then here's your chance. Can you come up with a left-wing politician who's suggested that the Census was Big Brother coming for us? can you come up with a left-wing politician who's said that the Government is lead by a Kenyan Terrorist, said that they want people "Armed And Dangerous" against the Government or that the government will force people to face "Death Panels?"
I think it's pretty clear that if the government runs health care that the government is going to have more control over people's lives. It's pretty hard to argue against that.
But the Government won't be running health care, they'll have a publicly funded insurance program for people who can't afford a private one. How is that "running" health care?
And we're talking about a dead Government worker. When Census takers start ending up hanging from trees in Vermont or when the flower children start showing up with hand grenades to protests... I'll agree both sides are he same.
Hmm...were those original people that you mentioned right-wing POLITICIANS? Or were they just talking heads from the media like Hannity and Rush are? Since I don't follow politics very closely, I can't come up with one without doing research and I don't care to.
Can you really equate that the direct reason this census taker was found hanging was a result of what some right-wing radio host said? To my knowledge, they haven't even classified this as murder yet.
I've probably been a bit off base with some of my comments so maybe I'll give it a shot once more to say what I really mean and then you can pick on that.
Here goes:
I have heard a lot of left-wing people complain about the government having too much involvement in their lives - particularly along the lines of privacy issues and that's where I make the connection to the census - and yet their solution to many of today's problems seems to be to call on the government to fix them. It seems to be a big contradiction to me.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Does the government come to anyone's house and makes sure they're not having gay sex? I wasn't aware that was happening.
Actually... they are. Or.. they were until just recently.
In 1998, John Geddes Lawrence and Tyron Garner were arrested for having gay sex in the privacy of Lawrence's home in Houston, Texas.
Republican Congressman Rick Santorum said that gay sex in the privacy of your own home should be illegal and that the men should be thrown in jail. He then said that "If the Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual [gay] sex within your home, then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery. You have the right to anything."
One idiot saying something that's stupid does not mean the whole right wing is in favor of the government going door-to-door checking for gay sex.
But of course it does...just like one crazy bastard in Kentucky killing a census worker shows that all republicans and right-wingers are murdering bastards...and Fox News is to blame.
I don't know how the government can provide health care and stay out of anyone's private life.
Does the government come to anyone's house and makes sure they're not having gay sex? I wasn't aware that was happening.
I guess my only answer to that is that the "right" is not just a single person. It's a spectrum. Some on the right may be calling for those things and others might be calling for smaller government. I think the trap is that we pick and choose examples to paint the picture however we want it to be.
Personally, I'm against all of those things...but then again I don't consider myself truly on the right. I just want the government to be smaller.
I'm not informed enough to make the correlation between political killings and Obama's presidency or death threats. Are you sure there weren't any political killings during Bush's reign? How do you count the death threats, do you have a source for that.
Because if there's a public health insurance option, your private life is still between your doctor and you. All the government does is foot the bill the way private insurers do now.
And yes, up until very recently, many states had anti-sodomy laws that allowed the government to arrest you if they thought you were having gay sex in private in your home. It was struck down by the supreme court only a few years ago, much to the dismay of many on the right.
Since we're talking hypocrisy, how is it that I need to acknowledge the "spectrum" of people on the right and not make generalizations about differences between right and left while it is ok for you to say that liberals make less sense than conservatives and are more hypocritical? There are many on the left arguing for smaller government too, like the Blue Dog democrats.
No, I'm not SURE there were no political killings during Bush's admin, which is why I keep asking you and others to point me to examples of left wing whackos being as violent as right wing whackos. I am sure that I've never heard of such a thing, but it's possible I missed something. But when you come down to it, this is the only key difference I notice... both sides have contradictions and lies and spin, but only one side is killing people over it. A dem gets in office and the right goes fucking nuts, even when the democrat is (like Clinton say) a very moderate democrat. They just can't stand to see anyone but their guys in power. Under Clinton there were 2-3 abortion doctor shooting, and Oklahoma City. Under Obama in 9 months, there's been an abortion clinic shooting, a shooting at the Holocaust musem, and now a census worker carved up by hicks for being part of the evil fed. Under Bush... the only thing I can think of that even comes close is when one environmentalist set fire to a hummer or two in the middle of the night when no one was there. Not exactly comparable.
But of course it does...just like one crazy bastard in Kentucky killing a census worker shows that all republicans and right-wingers are murdering bastards...and Fox News is to blame.
Nobody said that "all" republicans are murdering bastards. But we DID say that whomever did this was probably encouraged by Michelle Bachman's Census Panic speech where she suggested that the Census was about the Government controlling people and putting them in re-education camps.
One idiot saying something that's stupid does not mean the whole right wing is in favor of the government going door-to-door checking for gay sex.
But of course it does...just like one crazy bastard in Kentucky killing a census worker shows that all republicans and right-wingers are murdering bastards...and Fox News is to blame.
There's more than one crazy bastard. There are 3, in 9 months. And those are only the ones killing people. Maybe you believe it's just coincidence that since Limbaugh and Beck have ramped up their inflammatory statements, dead threats to Obama skyrocketed past anything Bush ever saw and people have started killing people over the 'values' espoused by these talking heads... but the talking heads did the same thing to Bush and nobody on the left started killing people that I recall. Can you steer me to any remotely similar acts of violence from the left under Bush? I'm being very serious here. I can think of nothing. And I don't know how you can claim there's not a difference between right and left on this. One side is basically calling for armed resistance and then trying to act like they have nothing to do with it when their listeners respond to and act on those calls, the other was organizing lame marches and whining all the time.
One idiot saying something that's stupid does not mean the whole right wing is in favor of the government going door-to-door checking for gay sex.
But of course it does...just like one crazy bastard in Kentucky killing a census worker shows that all republicans and right-wingers are murdering bastards...and Fox News is to blame.
And the ironic thing is that the example cited as evidence that the government was coming into people's homes checking for gay sex actually occurred under Clinton's watch.
Surely if we can equate EVERYTHING that went on when Bush was president as his fault, then the above example is Clinton's fault, right?
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
But of course it does...just like one crazy bastard in Kentucky killing a census worker shows that all republicans and right-wingers are murdering bastards...and Fox News is to blame.
Nobody said that "all" republicans are murdering bastards. But we DID say that whomever did this was probably encouraged by Michelle Bachman's Census Panic speech where she suggested that the Census was about the Government controlling people and putting them in re-education camps.
If you've ever been to Manchester, KY, you'd know that the likelihood that person heard Michelle Bachman's speech is pretty low (not saying it's impossible).
That being said, I've never heard of her or her speech either.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
But of course it does...just like one crazy bastard in Kentucky killing a census worker shows that all republicans and right-wingers are murdering bastards...and Fox News is to blame.
Nobody said that "all" republicans are murdering bastards. But we DID say that whomever did this was probably encouraged by Michelle Bachman's Census Panic speech where she suggested that the Census was about the Government controlling people and putting them in re-education camps.
DO you have text of that speech...I couldn't find it.
I do know that she said she would only fill out 1 question on the census..."How many people live in the house"...not sure that sounds too bad.
And the ironic thing is that the example cited as evidence that the government was coming into people's homes checking for gay sex actually occurred under Clinton's watch.
Clinton was the president of the USA. Not Governor of Texas.
And the ironic thing is that the example cited as evidence that the government was coming into people's homes checking for gay sex actually occurred under Clinton's watch.
Clinton was the president of the USA. Not Governor of Texas.
And? So you basically point the responsibility at whichever level of government is run by someone from the other side?
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
And the ironic thing is that the example cited as evidence that the government was coming into people's homes checking for gay sex actually occurred under Clinton's watch.
Clinton was the president of the USA. Not Governor of Texas.
Interesting side note... guess who WAS governer of Texas at the time. And the laws were in place when Clinton took office... it was on his watch that they finally started to get struck down. Of course, once Bush took over, they shifted tactics and started opting to pursue gay marriage bans since they knew sodomy laws were gone for good.
"Take this into consideration. If we look at American history, between 1942 and 1947, the data that was collected by the Census Bureau was handed over to the FBI and other organizations at the request of President Roosevelt, and that's how the Japanese were rounded up and put into the internment camps"
And? So you basically point the responsibility at whichever level of government is run by someone from the other side?
and the Governor of Texas at the time - the guy who supported taking the law to the Supreme court.. was George W Bush.
But even if it was Diane Fienstein... Bill Clinton had no power in Texas and their laws... Sounds more like YOU are trying to point the responsibility at whichever level of government is run by someone from the other side.
"Take this into consideration. If we look at American history, between 1942 and 1947, the data that was collected by the Census Bureau was handed over to the FBI and other organizations at the request of President Roosevelt, and that's how the Japanese were rounded up and put into the internment camps"
Because if there's a public health insurance option, your private life is still between your doctor and you. All the government does is foot the bill the way private insurers do now.
And yes, up until very recently, many states had anti-sodomy laws that allowed the government to arrest you if they thought you were having gay sex in private in your home. It was struck down by the supreme court only a few years ago, much to the dismay of many on the right.
Since we're talking hypocrisy, how is it that I need to acknowledge the "spectrum" of people on the right and not make generalizations about differences between right and left while it is ok for you to say that liberals make less sense than conservatives and are more hypocritical? There are many on the left arguing for smaller government too, like the Blue Dog democrats.
No, I'm not SURE there were no political killings during Bush's admin, which is why I keep asking you and others to point me to examples of left wing whackos being as violent as right wing whackos. I am sure that I've never heard of such a thing, but it's possible I missed something. But when you come down to it, this is the only key difference I notice... both sides have contradictions and lies and spin, but only one side is killing people over it. A dem gets in office and the right goes fucking nuts, even when the democrat is (like Clinton say) a very moderate democrat. They just can't stand to see anyone but their guys in power. Under Clinton there were 2-3 abortion doctor shooting, and Oklahoma City. Under Obama in 9 months, there's been an abortion clinic shooting, a shooting at the Holocaust musem, and now a census worker carved up by hicks for being part of the evil fed. Under Bush... the only thing I can think of that even comes close is when one environmentalist set fire to a hummer or two in the middle of the night when no one was there. Not exactly comparable.
This has really gone down some tangents since my first comment.
I never claimed that left wing whackos were as violent as right wing whackos.
I just said the left wing people who have issues with the government still tend to turn to government for solutions. The right wing ones seem to turn away from government when they have issues. And I do realize those are generalizations.
I think the health insurance companies now do intrude on our private lives and that's why I think government funded health care will do the same thing. When you apply for insurance, don't you answer health questions, for example?
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
And? So you basically point the responsibility at whichever level of government is run by someone from the other side?
and the Governor of Texas at the time - the guy who supported taking the law to the Supreme court.. was George W Bush.
But even if it was Diane Fienstein... Bill Clinton had no power in Texas and their laws... Sounds more like YOU are trying to point the responsibility at whichever level of government is run by someone from the other side.
Ok - you win. I can't compete with all the subtle twists and turns that take the original comment that I had and get to this point...which by the way still doesn't equate to a statement that the government is going door to door and searching for gay sex. This was one incident 10 years ago. The government has apparently gotten smaller on this issue since then and for that I'm thankful. The left-wing likely pushed for these changes and I support them on that. Getting back to my original point I just don't understand why the left-wing wants the government out of their private lives on one issue and then back in on another.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
By the way, here is the latest from the Washington post. If you read carefully, they say he died of asphyxiation, he was hanging from a tree but his feet were touching the ground, they won't confirm he had the word "Fed" on his chest and they won't confirm he was even working on Census business at the time or that he was targeted because he was a federal employee.
Maybe this is a bunch of fuss over something that has nothing to do with government.
Ok - you win. I can't compete with all the subtle twists and turns that take the original comment that I had and get to this point...which by the way still doesn't equate to a statement that the government is going door to door and searching for gay sex. This was one incident 10 years ago. The government has apparently gotten smaller on this issue since then and for that I'm thankful. The left-wing likely pushed for these changes and I support them on that. Getting back to my original point I just don't understand why the left-wing wants the government out of their private lives on one issue and then back in on another.
For the exact same reasons the right-wing wants the government out of their private lives on one inssue and then back in on another.
The left criticizes the government but recognizes its value in certain areas. They feel the government is equipped to administer a large program like health care, even if they don't trust its intrusions into what they do in their home. The right feels the government would bungle a big program like health care, even if they think the government is perfectly able to regulate our private lifestyle decisions for public safety (or whatever they fear will happen if gay people start getting married and so on). They're not the different or incredible.
Ok - you win. I can't compete with all the subtle twists and turns that take the original comment that I had and get to this point...which by the way still doesn't equate to a statement that the government is going door to door and searching for gay sex. This was one incident 10 years ago. The government has apparently gotten smaller on this issue since then and for that I'm thankful. The left-wing likely pushed for these changes and I support them on that. Getting back to my original point I just don't understand why the left-wing wants the government out of their private lives on one issue and then back in on another.
For the exact same reasons the right-wing wants the government out of their private lives on one inssue and then back in on another.
The left criticizes the government but recognizes its value in certain areas. They feel the government is equipped to administer a large program like health care, even if they don't trust its intrusions into what they do in their home. The right feels the government would bungle a big program like health care, even if they think the government is perfectly able to regulate our private lifestyle decisions for public safety (or whatever they fear will happen if gay people start getting married and so on). They're not the different or incredible.
OK - so now we're back on track. I see your points and there is some truth to them in my opinion.
Where we differ is that the example you mentioned of the right wanting bigger government regarding people's private lives don't really seem like bigger government to me in some cases, nor do they feel like government regulation in others.
Here were some I remember:
Abstinence Education - That's not regulation
10 Commandments in buildings - Is government calling for that, or is it individuals? In either case, it doesn't make government bigger
Gay Marriage Ban - I disagree with it, but it's not creating a government agency to regulate anything. It's a law that was passed. Furthermore, in the states in which it passed, it was far more than just the right voting for it.
Creationism - Haven't really seen the government doing lots of teaching that, but even if they are it doesn't make the government bigger. It's also not regulating people's lives.
Anti-Sodomy laws - Apparently those are still on the books sadly. Are they being enforced, though?
Drug Laws - one area where the government is bigger and regulating. The right is hypocritical to some degree on those, but then again the reason a lot of those laws are in place is to prevent one person's drug use from hurting or killing someone else i.e. driving under the influence.
I'll agree that there is a lot of hypocrisy on both sides, though.
Post edited by know1 on
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Comments
I'm not a fan of either side so I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm just saying that both sides rail against the government, but in my opinion it makes a lot less sense coming from the left.
As far as regulating private sex lives, I'm not really sure what you mean there. If you're talking about the government potentially passing a law to ban abortion, I don't really see that as government getting bigger. It's a law, not a government agency.
I'll agree with you about the right talking trash about Obama, but that hasn't been any worse than what Bush was getting so I guess the more things change, the more they stay the same which is why I just don't like the government in general.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I seem to remember a few years back, Republicans were writing bills to intervene in the health care decisions of Terry Schaivo (who was brain dead) and her husband.
I don't remember a left-wing group showing up to protests with assault rifles holding signs saying it was time to "water the tree of liberty with blood."
Saying that he left is just the same is just more right-wing bullshit like "Death Panels" or "Forcing health care on us" or "intelligent design."
Apparently I'm as ill-informed as you are. Perhaps it's just our personal bias's that taint our viewpoints.
Granted, I threw Michael Moore out there as a quick example and perhaps it was a poor one.
My point is basically that both sides rail against the government, but the left turns around and seems to call for the government to get bigger and have more control. I think it's pretty clear that if the government runs health care that the government is going to have more control over people's lives. It's pretty hard to argue against that. The fact that you took what I said and equated it with closing down hospitals and killing doctors probably speaks volumes as to where your opinions come from.
My only answer as to why the government became bigger under Bush is probably that he wasn't acting true to his political affiliation.
Did Sarah Palin really say "execute you in the street"? If she did, she's an idiot.
On the marriage issue I've been consistent. I don't want the government sanctioning or banning anyone's marriage.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
And I'm saying that's absurd to claim it makes less sense from the left. How is is less sensible to say "i want the government to provide services i can take advantage of while staying out of my private life" than to say "i want the government to stay out of my bank account but they're welcome to come to my home and make sure i'm not having gay sex."
No, im not talking about abortion, i'm talking about abstinence-only sex ed, creationism, 10 commandments in court, anti-sodomy laws, porn bans, drug laws, miscegenation (sp?) laws, warrantless wiretaps of your phone, etc. All causes championed by the right while they scream about the government regulating our lives too much.
You are right that the talking trash about Obama is no different than what was said about Bush, but I notice you, like every other right-leaning person here, dodges the second part of that question. How many leftists went out and murdered people after being fired up by Michael Moore or Bill Maher? We've had 3 political killings this year alone since the right went into overdrive against Obama. Obama gets far more death threats than Bush ever did. There is more violence on the right, period. Talk is cheap and I couldn't care less what they say about Obama. What concerns me is that they're doing it in a way that incites violence to a degree that the left never has.
I'd forgotten about that one. Classic. Then: government needs to step in between this husband and wife to make her medical decisions for her. Now: government should have no say in your medical options! Define hypocrisy...
I don't know how the government can provide health care and stay out of anyone's private life.
Does the government come to anyone's house and makes sure they're not having gay sex? I wasn't aware that was happening.
I guess my only answer to that is that the "right" is not just a single person. It's a spectrum. Some on the right may be calling for those things and others might be calling for smaller government. I think the trap is that we pick and choose examples to paint the picture however we want it to be.
Personally, I'm against all of those things...but then again I don't consider myself truly on the right. I just want the government to be smaller.
I'm not informed enough to make the correlation between political killings and Obama's presidency or death threats. Are you sure there weren't any political killings during Bush's reign? How do you count the death threats, do you have a source for that.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Well then here's your chance. Can you come up with a left-wing politician who's suggested that the Census was Big Brother coming for us? can you come up with a left-wing politician who's said that the Government is lead by a Kenyan Terrorist, said that they want people "Armed And Dangerous" against the Government or that the government will force people to face "Death Panels?"
But the Government won't be running health care, they'll have a publicly funded insurance program for people who can't afford a private one. How is that "running" health care?
And we're talking about a dead Government worker. When Census takers start ending up hanging from trees in Vermont or when the flower children start showing up with hand grenades to protests... I'll agree both sides are he same.
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
Actually... they are. Or.. they were until just recently.
In 1998, John Geddes Lawrence and Tyron Garner were arrested for having gay sex in the privacy of Lawrence's home in Houston, Texas.
Republican Congressman Rick Santorum said that gay sex in the privacy of your own home should be illegal and that the men should be thrown in jail. He then said that "If the Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual [gay] sex within your home, then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery. You have the right to anything."
Here's a link to the Wiki Page on the case.
Hmm...were those original people that you mentioned right-wing POLITICIANS? Or were they just talking heads from the media like Hannity and Rush are? Since I don't follow politics very closely, I can't come up with one without doing research and I don't care to.
Can you really equate that the direct reason this census taker was found hanging was a result of what some right-wing radio host said? To my knowledge, they haven't even classified this as murder yet.
I've probably been a bit off base with some of my comments so maybe I'll give it a shot once more to say what I really mean and then you can pick on that.
Here goes:
I have heard a lot of left-wing people complain about the government having too much involvement in their lives - particularly along the lines of privacy issues and that's where I make the connection to the census - and yet their solution to many of today's problems seems to be to call on the government to fix them. It seems to be a big contradiction to me.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
One idiot saying something that's stupid does not mean the whole right wing is in favor of the government going door-to-door checking for gay sex.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
But of course it does...just like one crazy bastard in Kentucky killing a census worker shows that all republicans and right-wingers are murdering bastards...and Fox News is to blame.
Because if there's a public health insurance option, your private life is still between your doctor and you. All the government does is foot the bill the way private insurers do now.
And yes, up until very recently, many states had anti-sodomy laws that allowed the government to arrest you if they thought you were having gay sex in private in your home. It was struck down by the supreme court only a few years ago, much to the dismay of many on the right.
Since we're talking hypocrisy, how is it that I need to acknowledge the "spectrum" of people on the right and not make generalizations about differences between right and left while it is ok for you to say that liberals make less sense than conservatives and are more hypocritical? There are many on the left arguing for smaller government too, like the Blue Dog democrats.
No, I'm not SURE there were no political killings during Bush's admin, which is why I keep asking you and others to point me to examples of left wing whackos being as violent as right wing whackos. I am sure that I've never heard of such a thing, but it's possible I missed something. But when you come down to it, this is the only key difference I notice... both sides have contradictions and lies and spin, but only one side is killing people over it. A dem gets in office and the right goes fucking nuts, even when the democrat is (like Clinton say) a very moderate democrat. They just can't stand to see anyone but their guys in power. Under Clinton there were 2-3 abortion doctor shooting, and Oklahoma City. Under Obama in 9 months, there's been an abortion clinic shooting, a shooting at the Holocaust musem, and now a census worker carved up by hicks for being part of the evil fed. Under Bush... the only thing I can think of that even comes close is when one environmentalist set fire to a hummer or two in the middle of the night when no one was there. Not exactly comparable.
Um.. the entire state of Texas took them to the US Supreme Court. That's not "One Idiot."
There are still laws on the books outlawing gay sex in 43 states... that's not "One Idiot."
Nobody said that "all" republicans are murdering bastards. But we DID say that whomever did this was probably encouraged by Michelle Bachman's Census Panic speech where she suggested that the Census was about the Government controlling people and putting them in re-education camps.
There's more than one crazy bastard. There are 3, in 9 months. And those are only the ones killing people. Maybe you believe it's just coincidence that since Limbaugh and Beck have ramped up their inflammatory statements, dead threats to Obama skyrocketed past anything Bush ever saw and people have started killing people over the 'values' espoused by these talking heads... but the talking heads did the same thing to Bush and nobody on the left started killing people that I recall. Can you steer me to any remotely similar acts of violence from the left under Bush? I'm being very serious here. I can think of nothing. And I don't know how you can claim there's not a difference between right and left on this. One side is basically calling for armed resistance and then trying to act like they have nothing to do with it when their listeners respond to and act on those calls, the other was organizing lame marches and whining all the time.
And the ironic thing is that the example cited as evidence that the government was coming into people's homes checking for gay sex actually occurred under Clinton's watch.
Surely if we can equate EVERYTHING that went on when Bush was president as his fault, then the above example is Clinton's fault, right?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
If you've ever been to Manchester, KY, you'd know that the likelihood that person heard Michelle Bachman's speech is pretty low (not saying it's impossible).
That being said, I've never heard of her or her speech either.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
DO you have text of that speech...I couldn't find it.
I do know that she said she would only fill out 1 question on the census..."How many people live in the house"...not sure that sounds too bad.
Clinton was the president of the USA. Not Governor of Texas.
And? So you basically point the responsibility at whichever level of government is run by someone from the other side?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Interesting side note... guess who WAS governer of Texas at the time. And the laws were in place when Clinton took office... it was on his watch that they finally started to get struck down. Of course, once Bush took over, they shifted tactics and started opting to pursue gay marriage bans since they knew sodomy laws were gone for good.
Here's a link to the YouTube video in which she lays it out best...
She suggests that the Census will lead to Interment Camps.
Quote to look for..
"Take this into consideration. If we look at American history, between 1942 and 1947, the data that was collected by the Census Bureau was handed over to the FBI and other organizations at the request of President Roosevelt, and that's how the Japanese were rounded up and put into the internment camps"
and the Governor of Texas at the time - the guy who supported taking the law to the Supreme court.. was George W Bush.
But even if it was Diane Fienstein... Bill Clinton had no power in Texas and their laws... Sounds more like YOU are trying to point the responsibility at whichever level of government is run by someone from the other side.
Thanks, I'll have to watch it later.
This has really gone down some tangents since my first comment.
I never claimed that left wing whackos were as violent as right wing whackos.
I just said the left wing people who have issues with the government still tend to turn to government for solutions. The right wing ones seem to turn away from government when they have issues. And I do realize those are generalizations.
I think the health insurance companies now do intrude on our private lives and that's why I think government funded health care will do the same thing. When you apply for insurance, don't you answer health questions, for example?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Ok - you win. I can't compete with all the subtle twists and turns that take the original comment that I had and get to this point...which by the way still doesn't equate to a statement that the government is going door to door and searching for gay sex. This was one incident 10 years ago. The government has apparently gotten smaller on this issue since then and for that I'm thankful. The left-wing likely pushed for these changes and I support them on that. Getting back to my original point I just don't understand why the left-wing wants the government out of their private lives on one issue and then back in on another.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Maybe this is a bunch of fuss over something that has nothing to do with government.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 04690.html
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
For the exact same reasons the right-wing wants the government out of their private lives on one inssue and then back in on another.
The left criticizes the government but recognizes its value in certain areas. They feel the government is equipped to administer a large program like health care, even if they don't trust its intrusions into what they do in their home. The right feels the government would bungle a big program like health care, even if they think the government is perfectly able to regulate our private lifestyle decisions for public safety (or whatever they fear will happen if gay people start getting married and so on). They're not the different or incredible.
OK - so now we're back on track. I see your points and there is some truth to them in my opinion.
Where we differ is that the example you mentioned of the right wanting bigger government regarding people's private lives don't really seem like bigger government to me in some cases, nor do they feel like government regulation in others.
Here were some I remember:
Abstinence Education - That's not regulation
10 Commandments in buildings - Is government calling for that, or is it individuals? In either case, it doesn't make government bigger
Gay Marriage Ban - I disagree with it, but it's not creating a government agency to regulate anything. It's a law that was passed. Furthermore, in the states in which it passed, it was far more than just the right voting for it.
Creationism - Haven't really seen the government doing lots of teaching that, but even if they are it doesn't make the government bigger. It's also not regulating people's lives.
Anti-Sodomy laws - Apparently those are still on the books sadly. Are they being enforced, though?
Drug Laws - one area where the government is bigger and regulating. The right is hypocritical to some degree on those, but then again the reason a lot of those laws are in place is to prevent one person's drug use from hurting or killing someone else i.e. driving under the influence.
I'll agree that there is a lot of hypocrisy on both sides, though.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.