I have looked around this fine country, have seen the results of our healthcare. Obesity! Kids turned into junkies due to Ritalin! The average senior citizen taking 10, yes 10 drugs perday! My point, if the best is that, then no thanks! Big pharma and the docs have monopolised this system, and to feed fuel to it would be an utter travesty. If I had the answer for the less priveliged, the poor, the unemployed, it would be........find anything to make yourself better than what you are or were doing. Sounds simple, I know it isn't, yet it is possible. Shit, let's be serious, who would of thought five young boys could do what they have managed to do and become. I just feel, very strongly, it is in all of us to do great things, and when we don't, we only let ourselves down and that is the hardest part to live with. I do not live in the government sector of aid or assistance, I just pay handsomely into it. As I watch my earnings go towards programs that only deteriorate the current situation, then yes, I get alarmed and agitated.
To ramble on, an employee at our business, dx with diabetes. I sent him to a doc, unconventional one at that in Houston Tx, and low and behold, this employee found out if he changed diet, exercise, and did a strict nutritional program, he was good to go. Five years later, this man continues to do well. Yes I supported, helped pay for, and continue to pay for some of those services. I would more than be happy to contribute to that type of care for people, but meds and unwarranted surgeries and therapies that have proven for the last 15-20 years to be repeat failures, I'll spend my $ elsewhere. That is just me.
As for Mr Ohio, sorry to hear about your situation, but seriously, having access to a system that only perpetuates sickness and disease? I won't do it! AGAIN, NO! Everyone does not deserve the best! Yet we do deserve better....of what we currently have. I wish I could be more concise. Not my nature tho!
i am a little confused by what you are saying. i hope you don't mind me asking you some questions. do you really believe that all obesity is due to drugs? secondly, the comment about seniors taking 10 meds a day. are you upset that they are taking them or that doctors are giving them? i have a feeling that you might be more upset about how the medical world works than UHC. i personally live in Canada who does have health care for everyone but to tell you the truth i also take care of myself i run, i play alot of sports and i watch what i eat. i think you will find that not everyone will just say "hey, i got heath care let me do whatever i want" peopel will still take care of themselves.
is there waste in the medical world, YES but i don't think that means fuck the people. it means fix the medical world.
Side topic of juvenile diabetes. Research this, and this will piss a ton of people off, but I care not. All those f@#$ing vaccines they shove through kids today to stop all the "bad" diseases is on of the many culprits in the "cause". Any epigeneticist will glady explain this over many hours of conversation, but to cut to the chase, we have swapped out measles, mumps, chicken pox for luekemia's, diabetes, obesity etc.. Obesity is a form of malnutrition. Difference between starvation and obesity is one accumulates fat cells from lack of nutrients as the other eats their body. Sorry to hear of your mothers woes, my mother had similar issues, minus the surgeries, with six kids, and yes I too helped her with her illnesses. She has thanked me like so many others, they say little and are still here to be enjoyed by family and friends. What is the quality of life of an individual on meds?..three surgeries later?....constantly bombarded by toxins from everywhere and anywhere. As for my family, vaccines, medical doctors, unless a trauma occurs, such as losing a leg, arm breaks, yes then I utilize, but otherwise we use natural-paths, chiropractic, nutrional therapies, massage, meditation, exercise, and whole foods..................Processed crap is not an option. My ancestors did not get here by eating Mccy D's, Burger K and the likes, my kids have no choice until they are eighteen with that crap! I say look around you, a good hard look and you will see why you are in the spot you are in, health wise.My point is, I need not be pressured, coaxed, forced to pay for anything that I don't want to, is it not my money, that I earned, doing my work, with my ideas? My ass is on the line if I fail, that is motivation enough for me to push that much harder than the next guy. I feel bad for sorry stories, but truth be told, we all have them and the system people advocate, it is just wrong! Liberals and Conservatives need to recognise this is a free country, and if a system is forced, then everyone who receives $ from U Sam must donate as well. Since I pay 47% of my income to U Sam, I think all should have to, whether it be, welfare, SSI, Unemployment, inheritance, etc...That is fair! This board will not hear from me ever again, and oh do I wish I had just shut my mouth, for other posters have said the same, and is it true.
Side topic of juvenile diabetes. Research this, and this will piss a ton of people off, but I care not. All those f@#$ing vaccines they shove through kids today to stop all the "bad" diseases is on of the many culprits in the "cause". Any epigeneticist will glady explain this over many hours of conversation, but to cut to the chase, we have swapped out measles, mumps, chicken pox for luekemia's, diabetes, obesity etc.. Obesity is a form of malnutrition. Difference between starvation and obesity is one accumulates fat cells from lack of nutrients as the other eats their body. Sorry to hear of your mothers woes, my mother had similar issues, minus the surgeries, with six kids, and yes I too helped her with her illnesses. She has thanked me like so many others, they say little and are still here to be enjoyed by family and friends. What is the quality of life of an individual on meds?..three surgeries later?....constantly bombarded by toxins from everywhere and anywhere. As for my family, vaccines, medical doctors, unless a trauma occurs, such as losing a leg, arm breaks, yes then I utilize, but otherwise we use natural-paths, chiropractic, nutrional therapies, massage, meditation, exercise, and whole foods..................Processed crap is not an option. My ancestors did not get here by eating Mccy D's, Burger K and the likes, my kids have no choice until they are eighteen with that crap! I say look around you, a good hard look and you will see why you are in the spot you are in, health wise.My point is, I need not be pressured, coaxed, forced to pay for anything that I don't want to, is it not my money, that I earned, doing my work, with my ideas? My ass is on the line if I fail, that is motivation enough for me to push that much harder than the next guy. I feel bad for sorry stories, but truth be told, we all have them and the system people advocate, it is just wrong! Liberals and Conservatives need to recognise this is a free country, and if a system is forced, then everyone who receives $ from U Sam must donate as well. Since I pay 47% of my income to U Sam, I think all should have to, whether it be, welfare, SSI, Unemployment, inheritance, etc...That is fair! This board will not hear from me ever again, and oh do I wish I had just shut my mouth, for other posters have said the same, and is it true.
i am sorry that we won't be hearing from you again. you are what this board needs. i may not agree with you but i respect the view point you have. i agree with you that peopel do have to take care of themselves too but i believe that not everyone can
First, I do not condone treating the poor with disdain. I for one am not that way. Secondly, on 8-26-09, my business, in four hours, managed to generate $13,000.00 for the community table in our city, that is correct, an organisation that donated that amount in cash. It is what I choose to do, and all of my employees are 100% with me on this.
Secondly, what does it mean to come from nothing. Lend me your ear, a set of eyes, and I'll show you poverty in the great US of A, for that is where I started and busted my ass to be the successful person I am. I thank every individual I employ daily, I thank all those who trusted in me, I thank all those who challenged me to better myself. Family excluded!
Thirdly, as for the three casues of sickness in the world, they hold true. I have more research to support that than I care to disseminate here with a bunch of yahoo's who whine because the world acts according to the laws that govern the world. Shit happens!
Lastly, I do not see myself above, greater than, important as....I'm just another man who lives, takes up my 2x2 personal space and do what I can for my fellow man. Healt insurance is not one.
I've been reading this board for years, I know the hatred and insecurities people express, that is their issue, not mine.
...
So... if I read this right... you are a business owner that employs people, right? This means, you are providing them with sufficient health care insurance which provides them access to health care in America... because these people are busting their asses for you and not being lazy poor people who are sucking up the resources. That payment you make for your employee's health insurance... it ISN'T going to the government, you know... it is going to an Insurance Company.
And if that person leaves your employ (for whatever reason.. including your laying them off)... he/she loses their health insurance, right?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
otherwise we use natural-paths, chiropractic, nutrional therapies, massage, meditation, exercise, and whole foods
I'm a qualified reflexologist and I practice a little to help suplement my income from my main job (although my husband says I should charge more). I too believe that there is a lot to be gained by using these 'alternative therapies', eating well and exercise. But I still think 'conventional medicine' has its place.
This board will not hear from me ever again, and oh do I wish I had just shut my mouth, for other posters have said the same, and is it true.
Please don't stop writing, I've found it really interesting reading your posts. I may not agree with you, but you've made me think, I've even had discussions with people outside this board about the topic. That's the point of this board isn't it? It would be very dull if someone said something and then 50 people replied saying 'yes that's completely right'.
"if you don't work for health care you shouldn't have it".....i would rather everyone have it, regardless of income or employment.
"These good folks wanna get their health care through good ol' capitalism; better no health care at all than godless-atheist commie health care; better to see your child die than have her saved by a Marxist-Stalinist-collective doctor who works for the government." Bill Blum.
I don't understand this talk of health care being a "right"....as if we have to prove that the founding fathers intended for national health care.
It isn't a right....it is something that civilized people provide to one another without question
That the USA is the only major country that doesn't provide health care to its citizens simply provides backing to the world belief that we are a bunch of selfish assholes
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018) The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
I don't understand this talk of health care being a "right"....as if we have to prove that the founding fathers intended for national health care.
It isn't a right....it is something that civilized people provide to one another without question
That the USA is the only major country that doesn't provide health care to its citizens simply provides backing to the world belief that we are a bunch of selfish assholes
...
And there you have it... and so simply stated.
No one is arguing with the anti-Health Care Obamaphobics out there that Health Care is a 'Right'.... those people are making that assumption... which is a false assumption. We are simply saying that it is a compassionate act that those whom are fortunate to give to those less fortunate. No one is saying, 'Give poor people Cadillac Health Care"... more like basic transportation Health Care because right now... they got none.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
When I applied for my job, I knew that health care benefits were included. However, I did not ask if they covered the ‘best’ insulin because I did not have diabetes at the time.
I think this is one of the major reasons why the "free market" doesn't work in the private health insurance industry. Free market principles say that consumers will demand the best because, if they don't get it, they'll just buy another product. But a) you don't really have much choice in the products offered by your employer and, b) you can't possibly know every little thing you might need coverage for until you actually need it.
in the stores where i buy my beer and in the bars where I go to have a beer and catch a Dodgers game. I know they can't afford to be sick today, so they go to work with that flu bug. If they could get treatment for that... I would benefit, right?
I think this is an excellent point. Even the selfish people out there have to realize that healthcare, especially immunizations, for everyone is in their own best interest. (I tried to start a threas about this awhile back, but no one responded.)
In our current system the uninsured wait for emergencies to receive care...these unpaid services are factored into the fees that the rest of us pay
If these people received preventative care we actually save money (I.e. A diabetic who can't afford treatment who waits until his feet need amputated before seeking care vs treating this person once diagnosed with the disease)
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018) The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
The poor need not die, just get a job and support the system instead of sucking off it.
Health is a choice via a habit. This country needs to put the fork down, stop swigging on the bottle, quit with the cancer sticks and avoid the script pad.
Top three causes of sickness: malnutrition, stress, and toxins. Welcome to the US of A!
NH is a joke and those who want it, move away to those countries that offer it and watch as they rebel against you existence because you suck, literally off the system.
I recall Stone, God he is Awesome!, say they went with their own release for $5.00 per record instead of $1.50. Tell me that is not capitalism. Anyone can have a liberal view, but when their pocket it being squeezed for someone else, they complain and moan. Oh yeah....moaning!
I for one love this country. Love freedom of choice, and help those I feel I need to help. Let this country do for itself what it can, not more legislation!
what about the people who get sick because they live close to where a lot of pollution is?
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
I have more research to support that than I care to disseminate here with a bunch of yahoo's who whine because the world acts according to the laws that govern the world. Shit happens!
Lastly, I do not see myself above, greater than, important as....
I've been reading this board for years, I know the hatred and insecurities people express, that is their issue, not mine.
..........
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
0
g under p
Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
President Obama begins his final drive for healthcare reform tonight with a nationally televised prime-time address to a joint session of Congress. His speech comes after an explosive August recess consumed by raucous town halls and talk of government-run “death panels.” We take a look at California’s “real death panels.” That’s what the nation’s largest nurses group is calling private insurers, as new data reveals they denied one of every five claims over the past seven years. We speak with Charles Idelson of the California Nurses Association/National Nurses Organizing Committee.
CHARLES IDELSON: Well, this is data that the insurance companies have always wanted to hide, and it’s just now become available. It documents that the insurance companies have denied, in California alone, 45 million claims since 2002, and in the first half of this year alone, their rates continue to skyrocket. Some of these rates ranged as high as 40 percent for UnitedHealthcare’s PacifiCare. And other large, giant insurers like Blue Cross, Health Net, CIGNA, Kaiser were all in the range of 30 percent. So it shows a clear pattern of very high denials by the very insurance companies that people depend upon to assure that they get care they need when they need it.
AMY GOODMAN: Wait. I want to go through these figures again of the denial rates, of—let’s start with PacifiCare, which is here in California.
CHARLES IDELSON: PacifiCare is a subsidiary of UnitedHealthcare, one of the biggest insurance companies in the United States. Its denial rates are 39 or 40 percent, 39.6 percent.
AMY GOODMAN: Almost 40 percent.
CHARLES IDELSON: First half of this year, almost 40 percent. And then you have CIGNA, which is one-third of all claims, 33 percent. You have Health Net, 30 percent; Kaiser Permanente, 28 percent; and Blue Cross, 28 percent. So those are four of the biggest insurance companies in California. And it’s clear that a substantial percentage of their—of the claims that are submitted to them are rejected.
The health insurance industry are just a total rip off even when paying for it out of one's own self employed pocket. I once paid $384 a month and I needed knee surgery which cost $5500 and I was told this would be covered. However after surgery they refused to cover on the technicality that is was a pre-existing condition. I as stuck with the bill which refused to pay, it damaged my credit but I did up paying $1100 for my surgery. That health insurance company was Mega Life & Health Insurance.
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
The health insurance industry are just a total rip off even when paying for it out of one's own self employed pocket. I once paid $384 a month and I needed knee surgery which cost $5500 and I was told this would be covered. However after surgery they refused to cover on the technicality that is was a pre-existing condition. I as stuck with the bill which refused to pay, it damaged my credit but I did up paying $1100 for my surgery. That health insurance company was Mega Life & Health Insurance.
Peace
That's just the nail in the coffin when it comes to the for-profit health insurance industry: "Explanation of benefits is not a guarantee of payment." So you never really know what will be paid for or what bills you'll be stuck with until the procedure has been done and you just wait to see if you get a bill in the mail.
I have to say, that's one great difference in the public systems... there are public regulations about what is covered and not covered, and if something isn't covered that you think should be, you can advocate for the government to cover it and vote in the people who will work to make that happen.
In our current system the uninsured wait for emergencies to receive care...these unpaid services are factored into the fees that the rest of us pay
If these people received preventative care we actually save money (I.e. A diabetic who can't afford treatment who waits until his feet need amputated before seeking care vs treating this person once diagnosed with the disease)
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Should everyone in the U.S. have access to the best meds, regardless of the insurance plan in which they are enrolled? Should health reform mandate equal coverage for everyone?
The problem itself is insurance plans. Health care should be nationalized like in civilized countries - countries that don't regard the ill health of their citizens as a means of making money.
welcome back byrnzie....
and you just hit the nail on the head with your comments. they are spot on.
olderman. i've worked in a country that has universal health care, and also within the US health care system, so i have seen and experienced the differences first hand. with the country that has universal health care, if you are diagnosed as an insulin dependant diabetic, the medication you receive is the one that is the best for your body and works best to control your bs levels. it has absolutely nothing to do with the cost of the treatment, or how long it takes your doctor to get your dosage correct with the insulin that is best for you, or whether you have the top health insurance. different people react differently to various sorts of insulin (long and quick acting). they try different sorts until they find out what works best for you. they also put into place a managed health care system for you, where other health care experts are involved like dieticians, podiatrists, eye doctors etc. all things that need to be monitored more closely when you have diabetes. if your doctor has not mentioned those to you, please ask him.
i wish you the best with managing your diabetes and i hope you keep well.
Socialized Healthcare vs. The Laws of Economics
The government's initial step in attempting to create a government-run healthcare monopoly has been to propose a law that would eventually drive the private health insurance industry out of existence. Additional taxes and mandated costs are to be imposed on health insurance companies, while a government-run "health insurance" bureaucracy will be created, ostensibly to "compete" with the private companies. The hoped-for end result is one big government monopoly which, like all government monopolies, will operate with all the efficiency of the post office and all the charm and compassion of the IRS.
Of course, it would be difficult to compete with a rival who has all of his capital and operating costs paid out of tax dollars. Whenever government "competes" with the private sector, it makes sure that the competition is grossly unfair, piling costly regulation after regulation, and tax after tax on the private companies while exempting itself from all of them. This is why the "government-sponsored enterprises" Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were so profitable for so many years. It is also why so many abysmally performing "public" schools remain in existence for decades despite their utter failure at educating children.
America's Healthcare Future?
Some years ago, the Nobel-laureate economist Milton Friedman studied the history of healthcare supply in America. In a 1992 study published by the Hoover Institution, entitled "Input and Output in Health Care," Friedman noted that 56 percent of all hospitals in America were privately owned and for-profit in 1910. After 60 years of subsidies for government-run hospitals, the number had fallen to about 10 percent. It took decades, but by the early 1990s government had taken over almost the entire hospital industry. That small portion of the industry that remains for-profit is regulated in an extraordinarily heavy way by federal, state and local governments so that many (perhaps most) of the decisions made by hospital administrators have to do with regulatory compliance as opposed to patient/customer service in pursuit of profit. It is profit, of course, that is necessary for private-sector hospitals to have the wherewithal to pay for healthcare.
Friedman's key conclusion was that, as with all governmental bureaucratic systems, government-owned or -controlled healthcare created a situation whereby increased "inputs," such as expenditures on equipment, infrastructure, and the salaries of medical professionals, actually led to decreased "outputs" in terms of the quantity of medical care. For example, while medical expenditures rose by 224 percent from 1965–1989, the number of hospital beds per 1,000 population fell by 44 percent and the number of beds occupied declined by 15 percent. Also during this time of almost complete governmental domination of the hospital industry (1944–1989), costs per patient-day rose almost 24-fold after inflation is taken into account.
The more money that has been spent on government-run healthcare, the less healthcare we have gotten. This kind of result is generally true of all government bureaucracies because of the absence of any market feedback mechanism. Since there are no profits in an accounting sense, by definition, in government, there is no mechanism for rewarding good performance and penalizing bad performance. In fact, in all government enterprises, exactly the opposite is true: bad performance (failure to achieve ostensible goals, or satisfy "customers") is typically rewarded with larger budgets. Failure to educate children leads to more money for government schools. Failure to reduce poverty leads to larger budgets for welfare state bureaucracies. This is guaranteed to happen with healthcare socialism as well.
Costs always explode whenever the government gets involved, and governments always lie about it. In 1970 the government forecast that the hospital insurance (HI) portion of Medicare would be "only" $2.9 billion annually. Since the actual expenditures were $5.3 billion, this was a 79 percent underestimate of cost. In 1980 the government forecast $5.5 billion in HI expenditures; actual expenditures were more than four times that amount — $25.6 billion. This bureaucratic cost explosion led the government to enact 23 new taxes in the first 30 years of Medicare. (See Ron Hamoway, "The Genesis and Development of Medicare," in Roger Feldman, ed., American Health Care, Independent Institute, 2000, pp. 15-86). The Obama administration's claim that a government takeover of healthcare will somehow magically reduce costs is not to be taken seriously. Government never, ever, reduces the cost of doing anything.
All government-run healthcare monopolies, whether they are in Canada, the UK, or Cuba, experience an explosion of both cost and demand — since healthcare is "free." Socialized healthcare is not really free, of course; the true cost is merely hidden, since it is paid for by taxes.
Whenever anything has a zero explicit price associated with it, consumer demand will increase substantially, and healthcare is no exception. At the same time, bureaucratic bungling will guarantee gross inefficiencies that will get worse and worse each year. As costs get out of control and begin to embarrass those who have promised all Americans a free healthcare lunch, the politicians will do what all governments do and impose price controls, probably under some euphemism such as "global budget controls."
Price controls, or laws that force prices down below market-clearing levels (where supply and demand are coordinated), artificially stimulate the amount demanded by consumers while reducing supply by making it unprofitable to supply as much as previously. The result of increased demand and reduced supply is shortages. Non-price rationing becomes necessary. This means that government bureaucrats, not individuals and their doctors, inevitably determine who will get medical treatment and who will not, what kind of medical technology will be available, how many doctors there will be, and so forth.
All countries that have adopted socialized healthcare have suffered from the disease of price-control-induced shortages. If a Canadian, for instance, suffers third-degree burns in an automobile crash and is in need of reconstructive plastic surgery, the average waiting time for treatment is more than 19 weeks, or nearly five months. The waiting time for orthopaedic surgery is also almost five months; for neurosurgery it's three full months; and it is even more than a month for heart surgery (see The Fraser Institute publication, Waiting Your Turn: Hospital Waiting Lists in Canada). Think about that one: if your doctor discovers that your arteries are clogged, you must wait in line for more than a month, with death by heart attack an imminent possibility. That's why so many Canadians travel to the United States for healthcare.
All the major American newspapers seem to have become nothing more than cheerleaders for the Obama administration, so it is difficult to find much in the way of current stories about the debacle of nationalized healthcare in Canada. But if one goes back a few years, the information is much more plentiful. A January 16, 2000, New York Times article entitled "Full Hospitals Make Canadians Wait and Look South," by James Brooke, provided some good examples of how Canadian price controls have created serious shortage problems.
A 58-year-old grandmother awaited open-heart surgery in a Montreal hospital hallway with 66 other patients as electric doors opened and closed all night long, bringing in drafts from sub-zero weather. She was on a five-year waiting list for her heart surgery.
In Toronto, 23 of the city's 25 hospitals turned away ambulances in a single day because of a shortage of doctors.
In Vancouver, ambulances have been "stacked up" for hours while heart attack victims wait in them before being properly taken care of.
At least 1,000 Canadian doctors and many thousands of Canadian nurses have migrated to the United States to avoid price controls on their salaries.
Wrote Mr. Brooke, "Few Canadians would recommend their system as a model for export."
Canadian price-control-induced shortages also manifest themselves in scarce access to medical technology. Per capita, the United States has eight times more MRI machines, seven times more radiation therapy units for cancer treatment, six times more lithotripsy units, and three times more open-heart surgery units. There are more MRI scanners in Washington state, population five million, than in all of Canada, with a population of more than 30 million (See John Goodman and Gerald Musgrave, Patient Power).
In the UK as well — thanks to nationalization, price controls, and government rationing of healthcare — thousands of people die needlessly every year because of shortages of kidney dialysis machines, pediatric intensive care units, pacemakers, and even x-ray machines. This is America's future, if "ObamaCare" becomes a reality.
Comments
Point is that people are using them like they are synonyms. How your health care is paid for does not equal health care itself.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
i am a little confused by what you are saying. i hope you don't mind me asking you some questions. do you really believe that all obesity is due to drugs? secondly, the comment about seniors taking 10 meds a day. are you upset that they are taking them or that doctors are giving them? i have a feeling that you might be more upset about how the medical world works than UHC. i personally live in Canada who does have health care for everyone but to tell you the truth i also take care of myself i run, i play alot of sports and i watch what i eat. i think you will find that not everyone will just say "hey, i got heath care let me do whatever i want" peopel will still take care of themselves.
is there waste in the medical world, YES but i don't think that means fuck the people. it means fix the medical world.
i am sorry that we won't be hearing from you again. you are what this board needs. i may not agree with you but i respect the view point you have. i agree with you that peopel do have to take care of themselves too but i believe that not everyone can
So... if I read this right... you are a business owner that employs people, right? This means, you are providing them with sufficient health care insurance which provides them access to health care in America... because these people are busting their asses for you and not being lazy poor people who are sucking up the resources. That payment you make for your employee's health insurance... it ISN'T going to the government, you know... it is going to an Insurance Company.
And if that person leaves your employ (for whatever reason.. including your laying them off)... he/she loses their health insurance, right?
Hail, Hail!!!
I'm a qualified reflexologist and I practice a little to help suplement my income from my main job (although my husband says I should charge more). I too believe that there is a lot to be gained by using these 'alternative therapies', eating well and exercise. But I still think 'conventional medicine' has its place.
Please don't stop writing, I've found it really interesting reading your posts. I may not agree with you, but you've made me think, I've even had discussions with people outside this board about the topic. That's the point of this board isn't it? It would be very dull if someone said something and then 50 people replied saying 'yes that's completely right'.
"These good folks wanna get their health care through good ol' capitalism; better no health care at all than godless-atheist commie health care; better to see your child die than have her saved by a Marxist-Stalinist-collective doctor who works for the government." Bill Blum.
It isn't a right....it is something that civilized people provide to one another without question
That the USA is the only major country that doesn't provide health care to its citizens simply provides backing to the world belief that we are a bunch of selfish assholes
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
And there you have it... and so simply stated.
No one is arguing with the anti-Health Care Obamaphobics out there that Health Care is a 'Right'.... those people are making that assumption... which is a false assumption. We are simply saying that it is a compassionate act that those whom are fortunate to give to those less fortunate. No one is saying, 'Give poor people Cadillac Health Care"... more like basic transportation Health Care because right now... they got none.
Hail, Hail!!!
I think this is one of the major reasons why the "free market" doesn't work in the private health insurance industry. Free market principles say that consumers will demand the best because, if they don't get it, they'll just buy another product. But a) you don't really have much choice in the products offered by your employer and, b) you can't possibly know every little thing you might need coverage for until you actually need it.
I think this is an excellent point. Even the selfish people out there have to realize that healthcare, especially immunizations, for everyone is in their own best interest. (I tried to start a threas about this awhile back, but no one responded.)
In our current system the uninsured wait for emergencies to receive care...these unpaid services are factored into the fees that the rest of us pay
If these people received preventative care we actually save money (I.e. A diabetic who can't afford treatment who waits until his feet need amputated before seeking care vs treating this person once diagnosed with the disease)
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
what about the people who get sick because they live close to where a lot of pollution is?
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
..........
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
The health insurance industry are just a total rip off even when paying for it out of one's own self employed pocket. I once paid $384 a month and I needed knee surgery which cost $5500 and I was told this would be covered. However after surgery they refused to cover on the technicality that is was a pre-existing condition. I as stuck with the bill which refused to pay, it damaged my credit but I did up paying $1100 for my surgery. That health insurance company was Mega Life & Health Insurance.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
That's just the nail in the coffin when it comes to the for-profit health insurance industry: "Explanation of benefits is not a guarantee of payment." So you never really know what will be paid for or what bills you'll be stuck with until the procedure has been done and you just wait to see if you get a bill in the mail.
I have to say, that's one great difference in the public systems... there are public regulations about what is covered and not covered, and if something isn't covered that you think should be, you can advocate for the government to cover it and vote in the people who will work to make that happen.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=106868
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Socialized Healthcare vs. The Laws of Economics
The government's initial step in attempting to create a government-run healthcare monopoly has been to propose a law that would eventually drive the private health insurance industry out of existence. Additional taxes and mandated costs are to be imposed on health insurance companies, while a government-run "health insurance" bureaucracy will be created, ostensibly to "compete" with the private companies. The hoped-for end result is one big government monopoly which, like all government monopolies, will operate with all the efficiency of the post office and all the charm and compassion of the IRS.
Of course, it would be difficult to compete with a rival who has all of his capital and operating costs paid out of tax dollars. Whenever government "competes" with the private sector, it makes sure that the competition is grossly unfair, piling costly regulation after regulation, and tax after tax on the private companies while exempting itself from all of them. This is why the "government-sponsored enterprises" Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were so profitable for so many years. It is also why so many abysmally performing "public" schools remain in existence for decades despite their utter failure at educating children.
America's Healthcare Future?
Some years ago, the Nobel-laureate economist Milton Friedman studied the history of healthcare supply in America. In a 1992 study published by the Hoover Institution, entitled "Input and Output in Health Care," Friedman noted that 56 percent of all hospitals in America were privately owned and for-profit in 1910. After 60 years of subsidies for government-run hospitals, the number had fallen to about 10 percent. It took decades, but by the early 1990s government had taken over almost the entire hospital industry. That small portion of the industry that remains for-profit is regulated in an extraordinarily heavy way by federal, state and local governments so that many (perhaps most) of the decisions made by hospital administrators have to do with regulatory compliance as opposed to patient/customer service in pursuit of profit. It is profit, of course, that is necessary for private-sector hospitals to have the wherewithal to pay for healthcare.
Friedman's key conclusion was that, as with all governmental bureaucratic systems, government-owned or -controlled healthcare created a situation whereby increased "inputs," such as expenditures on equipment, infrastructure, and the salaries of medical professionals, actually led to decreased "outputs" in terms of the quantity of medical care. For example, while medical expenditures rose by 224 percent from 1965–1989, the number of hospital beds per 1,000 population fell by 44 percent and the number of beds occupied declined by 15 percent. Also during this time of almost complete governmental domination of the hospital industry (1944–1989), costs per patient-day rose almost 24-fold after inflation is taken into account.
The more money that has been spent on government-run healthcare, the less healthcare we have gotten. This kind of result is generally true of all government bureaucracies because of the absence of any market feedback mechanism. Since there are no profits in an accounting sense, by definition, in government, there is no mechanism for rewarding good performance and penalizing bad performance. In fact, in all government enterprises, exactly the opposite is true: bad performance (failure to achieve ostensible goals, or satisfy "customers") is typically rewarded with larger budgets. Failure to educate children leads to more money for government schools. Failure to reduce poverty leads to larger budgets for welfare state bureaucracies. This is guaranteed to happen with healthcare socialism as well.
Costs always explode whenever the government gets involved, and governments always lie about it. In 1970 the government forecast that the hospital insurance (HI) portion of Medicare would be "only" $2.9 billion annually. Since the actual expenditures were $5.3 billion, this was a 79 percent underestimate of cost. In 1980 the government forecast $5.5 billion in HI expenditures; actual expenditures were more than four times that amount — $25.6 billion. This bureaucratic cost explosion led the government to enact 23 new taxes in the first 30 years of Medicare. (See Ron Hamoway, "The Genesis and Development of Medicare," in Roger Feldman, ed., American Health Care, Independent Institute, 2000, pp. 15-86). The Obama administration's claim that a government takeover of healthcare will somehow magically reduce costs is not to be taken seriously. Government never, ever, reduces the cost of doing anything.
All government-run healthcare monopolies, whether they are in Canada, the UK, or Cuba, experience an explosion of both cost and demand — since healthcare is "free." Socialized healthcare is not really free, of course; the true cost is merely hidden, since it is paid for by taxes.
Whenever anything has a zero explicit price associated with it, consumer demand will increase substantially, and healthcare is no exception. At the same time, bureaucratic bungling will guarantee gross inefficiencies that will get worse and worse each year. As costs get out of control and begin to embarrass those who have promised all Americans a free healthcare lunch, the politicians will do what all governments do and impose price controls, probably under some euphemism such as "global budget controls."
Price controls, or laws that force prices down below market-clearing levels (where supply and demand are coordinated), artificially stimulate the amount demanded by consumers while reducing supply by making it unprofitable to supply as much as previously. The result of increased demand and reduced supply is shortages. Non-price rationing becomes necessary. This means that government bureaucrats, not individuals and their doctors, inevitably determine who will get medical treatment and who will not, what kind of medical technology will be available, how many doctors there will be, and so forth.
All countries that have adopted socialized healthcare have suffered from the disease of price-control-induced shortages. If a Canadian, for instance, suffers third-degree burns in an automobile crash and is in need of reconstructive plastic surgery, the average waiting time for treatment is more than 19 weeks, or nearly five months. The waiting time for orthopaedic surgery is also almost five months; for neurosurgery it's three full months; and it is even more than a month for heart surgery (see The Fraser Institute publication, Waiting Your Turn: Hospital Waiting Lists in Canada). Think about that one: if your doctor discovers that your arteries are clogged, you must wait in line for more than a month, with death by heart attack an imminent possibility. That's why so many Canadians travel to the United States for healthcare.
All the major American newspapers seem to have become nothing more than cheerleaders for the Obama administration, so it is difficult to find much in the way of current stories about the debacle of nationalized healthcare in Canada. But if one goes back a few years, the information is much more plentiful. A January 16, 2000, New York Times article entitled "Full Hospitals Make Canadians Wait and Look South," by James Brooke, provided some good examples of how Canadian price controls have created serious shortage problems.
A 58-year-old grandmother awaited open-heart surgery in a Montreal hospital hallway with 66 other patients as electric doors opened and closed all night long, bringing in drafts from sub-zero weather. She was on a five-year waiting list for her heart surgery.
In Toronto, 23 of the city's 25 hospitals turned away ambulances in a single day because of a shortage of doctors.
In Vancouver, ambulances have been "stacked up" for hours while heart attack victims wait in them before being properly taken care of.
At least 1,000 Canadian doctors and many thousands of Canadian nurses have migrated to the United States to avoid price controls on their salaries.
Wrote Mr. Brooke, "Few Canadians would recommend their system as a model for export."
Canadian price-control-induced shortages also manifest themselves in scarce access to medical technology. Per capita, the United States has eight times more MRI machines, seven times more radiation therapy units for cancer treatment, six times more lithotripsy units, and three times more open-heart surgery units. There are more MRI scanners in Washington state, population five million, than in all of Canada, with a population of more than 30 million (See John Goodman and Gerald Musgrave, Patient Power).
In the UK as well — thanks to nationalization, price controls, and government rationing of healthcare — thousands of people die needlessly every year because of shortages of kidney dialysis machines, pediatric intensive care units, pacemakers, and even x-ray machines. This is America's future, if "ObamaCare" becomes a reality.
http://mises.org/story/3586Report