Abortion-Why is it such a heated issue?

CJMST3K

musicismylife78 wrote:

right, but that doesnt answer my question and doesnt get at the hypocrisy. If you are prolife because you think abortion is murder, why do some go out and murder abortion doctors? Isnt that a paradox?

Ok - this will be controversial but I think this may shed light to answer your paradox:

Are you personally ok with killing people? Y or N

(assuming your answer above is "no")
If you had a chance to kill a serial killer just before he killed another person, would you? Y or N

That's the paradox.

Now, this part is more controversial, but here it is... Then you get to the question of what would you do if being a serial killer was legal, and you would be in the wrong for killing him, but not killing him would continue the serial killing, what would you do?

That's what that guy who shot the doctor probably felt.

For pro-lifers, whether the crazy religious ones or more moderate ones, they believe that a human hidden behind 1/4" of skin feels pain and has the same rights as someone outside of 1/4" of skin, and that killing them is murder, particularly late-term abortions.

Pro-choicer's believe the opposite, that the fetus/baby/etc has no rights and feels no significant pain, or if it does, it's irrelevant and the parent's choice in what to do.

Right?

Now, 99.9999% of pro-lifers don't go out and kill doctors who terminate/kill the fetus/babies/etc. You're saying "some", but in reality you're talking about a couple of people out of tens of millions of people. So you are talking about a very small fraction of a percentage take things to this extreme.

That guy who believed this late-term abortion doctor was killing pain-feeling fetuses/babies snapped and killed the doctor. Practically no one on either side is endorsing his behavior.

musicismylife78 wrote:

To many it seems like its not a "choice" to be against abortion, but rather that its Gods Will that they be against it.

I agree that a large number of the vocal pro-lifers are religious, to a nauseating extent. There are also non-religious/agnostic/atheists who do not agree with abortion. I wouldn't tag all pro-lifer's as religious, following "god's will", though those are the ones who are most vocal.


I know I'm bringing a controversial angle to this, but I am all up for hearing differences with my analogy above.

ajedigecko

CJMST3K wrote:

musicismylife78 wrote:

right, but that doesnt answer my question and doesnt get at the hypocrisy. If you are prolife because you think abortion is murder, why do some go out and murder abortion doctors? Isnt that a paradox?

Ok - this will be controversial but I think this may shed light to answer your paradox:

Are you personally ok with killing people? Y or N

(assuming your answer above is "no")
If you had a chance to kill a serial killer just before he killed another person, would you? Y or N

That's the paradox.

Now, this part is more controversial, but here it is... Then you get to the question of what would you do if being a serial killer was legal, and you would be in the wrong for killing him, but not killing him would continue the serial killing, what would you do?

That's what that guy who shot the doctor probably felt.

For pro-lifers, whether the crazy religious ones or more moderate ones, they believe that a human hidden behind 1/4" of skin feels pain and has the same rights as someone outside of 1/4" of skin, and that killing them is murder, particularly late-term abortions.

Pro-choicer's believe the opposite, that the fetus/baby/etc has no rights and feels no significant pain, or if it does, it's irrelevant and the parent's choice in what to do.

Right?

Now, 99.9999% of pro-lifers don't go out and kill doctors who terminate/kill the fetus/babies/etc. You're saying "some", but in reality you're talking about a couple of people out of tens of millions of people. So you are talking about a very small fraction of a percentage take things to this extreme.

That guy who believed this late-term abortion doctor was killing pain-feeling fetuses/babies snapped and killed the doctor. Practically no one on either side is endorsing his behavior.

musicismylife78 wrote:

To many it seems like its not a "choice" to be against abortion, but rather that its Gods Will that they be against it.

I agree that a large number of the vocal pro-lifers are religious, to a nauseating extent. There are also non-religious/agnostic/atheists who do not agree with abortion. I wouldn't tag all pro-lifer's as religious, following "god's will", though those are the ones who are most vocal.


I know I'm bringing a controversial angle to this, but I am all up for hearing differences with my analogy above.

well said.

ajedigecko

tybird wrote:

scb wrote:

ajedigecko wrote:

i used to have a friend.......he talked his girlfriend into the abortion for birthcontrol purposes.

so.........i am against it when used for birthcontrol.

Please explain what "for birth control purposes" means.

I suspect that the couple has sex without either party actively using any means to prevent a sperm cell from fertilizing the egg...no rubber, no pill....if a sperm cell turns out to be the "Golden BB"....she gets an abortion.

thank you for explaining.

know1

It's a hot issue because there's enough gray area out there that neither side can truly prove its position.

tybird

know1 wrote:

It's a hot issue because there's enough gray area out there that neither side can truly prove its position.

+1

soulsinging

musicismylife78 wrote:

right, but that doesnt answer my question and doesnt get at the hypocrisy. If you are prolife because you think abortion is murder, why do some go out and murder abortion doctors? Isnt that a paradox? Its like that backeward logic people used for hiroshima and nagasaki, "oh we dropped the bomb to save lives", meanwhile they murdered hundreds of thousands of people and people are still living with the aftereffects of all that

Yeah but 99% of pro-lifers have not killed an abortion doctor or anyone else. So there are a few crazy hypocrites like that, but it doesn't mean the pro-life stance itself is hypocritical.

soulsinging

musicismylife78 wrote:

as I said, people are free to feel what they want on abortion, I just find it pretty odd. What thought process rationalizes murdering people for the sake of the cause?

Getting so worked up over this issue that you go and murder an abortion doctor? I dont get it

I don't know, probably the same thought process that rationalizes blowing up car dealerships and pouring toxins and poison into the atmosphere for the sake of the environmental cause. Or breaking into a lab to release all the animals so they can all instantly be killed trying to cross a major highway for the cause of animal rights. You know... it's odd like that.

cincybearcat

Cosmo wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

I think the greatest misconception that is made about the 'Pro-choice' side of the equation is that Pro-Choice people are 'Pro-abortion' and have this non-chalant attitude towards life. This cannot be further from the truth. Many... and i will venture to say, the majority of Pro-Choice people do not approve of abortion as choice of their choosing. Most would hope that the individual would choose an alternative to abortion... and most believe that education is a powerful tool to prevent the unwanted pregnancy in the first place.
The majority of the Pro-choice people do not want government making the call on this issue... they do not want the church to legislate for the masses. They believe in the individual's right to Choose... not abortion.

I also think a great misconception is that everyone that is against abortion is so because of their religion.

...
Then, provide some examples where religion does NOT help to formulate the anti-abortion side of the arguement. Because in most of the cases I have been a part of... religion always seems to find it's way in.
...
That being said... I understand that not all anti-abortion people are religious fanatics that go around blowing up clinics.

I think many base it on their religion, just not all. That's what I'm saying. To assume that it's religion based all the time is just wrong. Does being against someone taking the property of others automatically mean it's religion based as well? I don't think all morals are based on religion, but religion does try to instill certain morals into it's followers.

cincybearcat

Cosmo wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

Umm...1 side thinks it's murder...the other thinks it's someone forcing their beliefs on them and their bodies...

Seems like the perfect storm for a huge, extremely heated issue. Also, tough for a middle ground on this one.

...
But... I believe there IS middle ground. Don't CHOOSE Abortion.

For someone that believes it's murder that is hardly an option. Just let other people decide if they are going to kill someone and hope that they choose not to? That's just silly.

soulsinging

cincybearcat wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

Umm...1 side thinks it's murder...the other thinks it's someone forcing their beliefs on them and their bodies...

Seems like the perfect storm for a huge, extremely heated issue. Also, tough for a middle ground on this one.

...
But... I believe there IS middle ground. Don't CHOOSE Abortion.

For someone that believes it's murder that is hardly an option. Just let other people decide if they are going to kill someone and hope that they choose not to? That's just silly.

I've got to agree with that. I'm pro-choice, but it's foolish to act like that's a viable option to the pro-life movement. That's like saying we should not intervene in acts of genocide because maybe the African people are choosing genocide because it's other Africans doing the killing. I don't agree with the premise of the pro-life argument (that life begins at conception), but I have no good reason why mine is a whole lot better. And based on the pro-life premise there is really only one logical outcome.

decides2dream

also, pro-life, overall...is a misnomer. basically, the majority of pro-lifers are simply anti-abortion. pro-life is an abortion-only label and stance...it does not necessarily fall in line with being anti-war or anti-death penalty. it only deals with the unborn. just like those who are pro-choice are only discussing options in regards to pregnancy to include abortion, b/c they may well be very 'pro-life' in general. i consider myself a very pro-life person, and yet i am 100% pro-choice when it comes to abortion.

as cincy clearly illustrates, it is obviously linked to your personal beliefs in regards to the unborn life.

and if history teaches us nothing else..... it is evident that humanity can and does justify just about any actions in support of their individual causes.

milarso

decides2dream wrote:

also, pro-life, overall...is a misnomer. basically, the majority of pro-lifers are simply anti-abortion. pro-life is an abortion-only label and stance...it does not necessarily fall in line with being anti-war or anti-death penalty. it only deals with the unborn. just like those who are pro-choice are only discussing options in regards to pregnancy to include abortion, b/c they may well be very 'pro-life' in general. i consider myself a very pro-life person, and yet i am 100% pro-choice when it comes to abortion.

as cincy clearly illustrates, it is obviously linked to your personal beliefs in regards to the unborn life.

and if history teaches us nothing else..... it is evident that humanity can and does justify just about any actions in support of their individual causes.

I agree whole heartedly.

Cosmo

cincybearcat wrote:

For someone that believes it's murder that is hardly an option. Just let other people decide if they are going to kill someone and hope that they choose not to? That's just silly.

...
The problem with both sides is Abortion.
All I'm trying to say is solve the problem of abortion without having the Government foceably intervene in your personal affairs is to go after the real source of the problem... the unwanted pregnancies. Work on ending the unwanted pregnancies and you end the decision that leads to abortion to be made.

VINNY GOOMBA

Cosmo wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

For someone that believes it's murder that is hardly an option. Just let other people decide if they are going to kill someone and hope that they choose not to? That's just silly.

...
The problem with both sides is Abortion.
All I'm trying to say is solve the problem of abortion without having the Government foceably intervene in your personal affairs is to go after the real source of the problem... the unwanted pregnancies. Work on ending the unwanted pregnancies and you end the decision that leads to abortion to be made.

Yes, this is the unifying factor. You'd never know it with the way the media and the politicians in this country try to divide us.

Cosmo

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

Yes, this is the unifying factor. You'd never know it with the way the media and the politicians in this country try to divide us.

...
Even if there was a magic machine invented that could move a woman back in time to the point where she was not pregnant... there would STILL be those who would oppose it.

VINNY GOOMBA

Cosmo wrote:

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

Yes, this is the unifying factor. You'd never know it with the way the media and the politicians in this country try to divide us.

...
Even if there was a magic machine invented that could move a woman back in time to the point where she was not pregnant... there would STILL be those who would oppose it.

You mean a time machine??? What do you think UFOs are???

DRUMROLL...

...And the winner for best thread hi-jack goes to.........

quelquefois

Cosmo wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

For someone that believes it's murder that is hardly an option. Just let other people decide if they are going to kill someone and hope that they choose not to? That's just silly.

...
The problem with both sides is Abortion.
All I'm trying to say is solve the problem of abortion without having the Government foceably intervene in your personal affairs is to go after the real source of the problem... the unwanted pregnancies. Work on ending the unwanted pregnancies and you end the decision that leads to abortion to be made.

such a good point! but it tends to also be conservative folk who are against any sex ed programs besides "abstinence only"... which of course leads to unwanted pregnancies, and in turn, abortions.

Cosmo

NothingIsEverything. wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

For someone that believes it's murder that is hardly an option. Just let other people decide if they are going to kill someone and hope that they choose not to? That's just silly.

...
The problem with both sides is Abortion.
All I'm trying to say is solve the problem of abortion without having the Government foceably intervene in your personal affairs is to go after the real source of the problem... the unwanted pregnancies. Work on ending the unwanted pregnancies and you end the decision that leads to abortion to be made.

such a good point! but it tends to also be conservative folk who are against any sex ed programs besides "abstinence only"... which of course leads to unwanted pregnancies, and in turn, abortions.

...
Which has been a personal sticking point of mine... I would think that the Anti-Abortion folks would be doing themselves a great service by going after the source of the problem, not the effects of it. Teach people how to avoid the unwanted pregnancy, and solve your own problems with abortion.

_

CJMST3K wrote:

Are you personally ok with killing people? Y or N

(assuming your answer above is "no")
If you had a chance to kill a serial killer just before he killed another person, would you? Y or N

That's the paradox.

Now, this part is more controversial, but here it is... Then you get to the question of what would you do if being a serial killer was legal, and you would be in the wrong for killing him, but not killing him would continue the serial killing, what would you do?

That's what that guy who shot the doctor probably felt.

Interesting analogy.

CJMST3K wrote:

Pro-choicer's believe the opposite, that the fetus/baby/etc has no rights and feels no significant pain, or if it does, it's irrelevant and the parent's choice in what to do.

Right?

I don't think this is an accurate generalization of the pro-choice side.

_

tybird wrote:

scb wrote:

ajedigecko wrote:

i used to have a friend.......he talked his girlfriend into the abortion for birthcontrol purposes.

so.........i am against it when used for birthcontrol.

Please explain what "for birth control purposes" means.

I suspect that the couple has sex without either party actively using any means to prevent a sperm cell from fertilizing the egg...no rubber, no pill....if a sperm cell turns out to be the "Golden BB"....she gets an abortion.

So are you suggesting that the couple made the decision to have an abortion BEFORE she became pregnant? Like, "What should we use for birth control, honey - pills, condoms, or abortion?" Because in my experience birth control decisions are made before pregnancy and abortion decisions are made after pregnancy has been established - at which point it's too late to make a decision about birth control.