also, pro-life, overall...is a misnomer. basically, the majority of pro-lifers are simply anti-abortion. pro-life is an abortion-only label and stance...it does not necessarily fall in line with being anti-war or anti-death penalty. it only deals with the unborn. just like those who are pro-choice are only discussing options in regards to pregnancy to include abortion, b/c they may well be very 'pro-life' in general. i consider myself a very pro-life person, and yet i am 100% pro-choice when it comes to abortion.
as cincy clearly illustrates, it is obviously linked to your personal beliefs in regards to the unborn life.
and if history teaches us nothing else..... it is evident that humanity can and does justify just about any actions in support of their individual causes.
also, pro-life, overall...is a misnomer. basically, the majority of pro-lifers are simply anti-abortion. pro-life is an abortion-only label and stance...it does not necessarily fall in line with being anti-war or anti-death penalty. it only deals with the unborn. just like those who are pro-choice are only discussing options in regards to pregnancy to include abortion, b/c they may well be very 'pro-life' in general. i consider myself a very pro-life person, and yet i am 100% pro-choice when it comes to abortion.
as cincy clearly illustrates, it is obviously linked to your personal beliefs in regards to the unborn life.
and if history teaches us nothing else..... it is evident that humanity can and does justify just about any actions in support of their individual causes.
I agree whole heartedly.
"The dude abides. I don't know about you, but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' her easy for all us sinners."
For someone that believes it's murder that is hardly an option. Just let other people decide if they are going to kill someone and hope that they choose not to? That's just silly.
...
The problem with both sides is Abortion.
All I'm trying to say is solve the problem of abortion without having the Government foceably intervene in your personal affairs is to go after the real source of the problem... the unwanted pregnancies. Work on ending the unwanted pregnancies and you end the decision that leads to abortion to be made.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
For someone that believes it's murder that is hardly an option. Just let other people decide if they are going to kill someone and hope that they choose not to? That's just silly.
...
The problem with both sides is Abortion.
All I'm trying to say is solve the problem of abortion without having the Government foceably intervene in your personal affairs is to go after the real source of the problem... the unwanted pregnancies. Work on ending the unwanted pregnancies and you end the decision that leads to abortion to be made.
Yes, this is the unifying factor. You'd never know it with the way the media and the politicians in this country try to divide us.
Yes, this is the unifying factor. You'd never know it with the way the media and the politicians in this country try to divide us.
...
Even if there was a magic machine invented that could move a woman back in time to the point where she was not pregnant... there would STILL be those who would oppose it.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Yes, this is the unifying factor. You'd never know it with the way the media and the politicians in this country try to divide us.
...
Even if there was a magic machine invented that could move a woman back in time to the point where she was not pregnant... there would STILL be those who would oppose it.
You mean a time machine??? What do you think UFOs are???
DRUMROLL...
...And the winner for best thread hi-jack goes to.........
For someone that believes it's murder that is hardly an option. Just let other people decide if they are going to kill someone and hope that they choose not to? That's just silly.
...
The problem with both sides is Abortion.
All I'm trying to say is solve the problem of abortion without having the Government foceably intervene in your personal affairs is to go after the real source of the problem... the unwanted pregnancies. Work on ending the unwanted pregnancies and you end the decision that leads to abortion to be made.
such a good point! but it tends to also be conservative folk who are against any sex ed programs besides "abstinence only"... which of course leads to unwanted pregnancies, and in turn, abortions.
For someone that believes it's murder that is hardly an option. Just let other people decide if they are going to kill someone and hope that they choose not to? That's just silly.
...
The problem with both sides is Abortion.
All I'm trying to say is solve the problem of abortion without having the Government foceably intervene in your personal affairs is to go after the real source of the problem... the unwanted pregnancies. Work on ending the unwanted pregnancies and you end the decision that leads to abortion to be made.
such a good point! but it tends to also be conservative folk who are against any sex ed programs besides "abstinence only"... which of course leads to unwanted pregnancies, and in turn, abortions.
...
Which has been a personal sticking point of mine... I would think that the Anti-Abortion folks would be doing themselves a great service by going after the source of the problem, not the effects of it. Teach people how to avoid the unwanted pregnancy, and solve your own problems with abortion.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
(assuming your answer above is "no")
If you had a chance to kill a serial killer just before he killed another person, would you? Y or N
That's the paradox.
Now, this part is more controversial, but here it is... Then you get to the question of what would you do if being a serial killer was legal, and you would be in the wrong for killing him, but not killing him would continue the serial killing, what would you do?
That's what that guy who shot the doctor probably felt.
Pro-choicer's believe the opposite, that the fetus/baby/etc has no rights and feels no significant pain, or if it does, it's irrelevant and the parent's choice in what to do.
Right?
I don't think this is an accurate generalization of the pro-choice side.
i used to have a friend.......he talked his girlfriend into the abortion for birthcontrol purposes.
so.........i am against it when used for birthcontrol.
Please explain what "for birth control purposes" means.
I suspect that the couple has sex without either party actively using any means to prevent a sperm cell from fertilizing the egg...no rubber, no pill....if a sperm cell turns out to be the "Golden BB"....she gets an abortion.
So are you suggesting that the couple made the decision to have an abortion BEFORE she became pregnant? Like, "What should we use for birth control, honey - pills, condoms, or abortion?" Because in my experience birth control decisions are made before pregnancy and abortion decisions are made after pregnancy has been established - at which point it's too late to make a decision about birth control.
For someone that believes it's murder that is hardly an option. Just let other people decide if they are going to kill someone and hope that they choose not to? That's just silly.
...
The problem with both sides is Abortion.
All I'm trying to say is solve the problem of abortion without having the Government foceably intervene in your personal affairs is to go after the real source of the problem... the unwanted pregnancies. Work on ending the unwanted pregnancies and you end the decision that leads to abortion to be made.
I think this is exemplified by the fact that abortion isn't such a big issue in most Western European countries as is it in the U.S., which has one ofj the highest unintended pregnancy rates in the developed world.
After all, if this were inherently a heated issue, why is it not equally heated in the rest of the world?
...
The problem with both sides is Abortion.
All I'm trying to say is solve the problem of abortion without having the Government foceably intervene in your personal affairs is to go after the real source of the problem... the unwanted pregnancies. Work on ending the unwanted pregnancies and you end the decision that leads to abortion to be made.
such a good point! but it tends to also be conservative folk who are against any sex ed programs besides "abstinence only"... which of course leads to unwanted pregnancies, and in turn, abortions.
...
Which has been a personal sticking point of mine... I would think that the Anti-Abortion folks would be doing themselves a great service by going after the source of the problem, not the effects of it. Teach people how to avoid the unwanted pregnancy, and solve your own problems with abortion.
And this is what brings us back to the idea that much of this group is just trying to impose their moral and/or religious beliefs on others - they do it even when lives are NOT at stake and when backing off would actually prevent abortions.
So are you suggesting that the couple made the decision to have an abortion BEFORE she became pregnant? Like, "What should we use for birth control, honey - pills, condoms, or abortion?" Because in my experience birth control decisions are made before pregnancy and abortion decisions are made after pregnancy has been established - at which point it's too late to make a decision about birth control.
You can't deny that there are some people who take no precautions because they are too lazy, selfish, careless, stupid, etc., but then decided after fact to get an abortion because they were too lazy, selfish, careless, stupid, etc., to use birth control.
My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
For someone that believes it's murder that is hardly an option. Just let other people decide if they are going to kill someone and hope that they choose not to? That's just silly.
...
The problem with both sides is Abortion.
All I'm trying to say is solve the problem of abortion without having the Government foceably intervene in your personal affairs is to go after the real source of the problem... the unwanted pregnancies. Work on ending the unwanted pregnancies and you end the decision that leads to abortion to be made.
such a good point! but it tends to also be conservative folk who are against any sex ed programs besides "abstinence only"... which of course leads to unwanted pregnancies, and in turn, abortions.
This is true and it is a serious barrier to solving the issue.
Please explain what "for birth control purposes" means.
I suspect that the couple has sex without either party actively using any means to prevent a sperm cell from fertilizing the egg...no rubber, no pill....if a sperm cell turns out to be the "Golden BB"....she gets an abortion.
So are you suggesting that the couple made the decision to have an abortion BEFORE she became pregnant? Like, "What should we use for birth control, honey - pills, condoms, or abortion?" Because in my experience birth control decisions are made before pregnancy and abortion decisions are made after pregnancy has been established - at which point it's too late to make a decision about birth control.
Nope, it's the failure to address the issue and make a choice that leaves them with abortion. So, for individuals in those circumstances they have chosen not to use any other form of birth control so the en dup choosing abortion to keep from givng birth...thus birth control.
You talking about conception control....but abortion still is birth control.
The problem with both sides is Abortion.
All I'm trying to say is solve the problem of abortion without having the Government foceably intervene in your personal affairs is to go after the real source of the problem... the unwanted pregnancies. Work on ending the unwanted pregnancies and you end the decision that leads to abortion to be made.
such a good point! but it tends to also be conservative folk who are against any sex ed programs besides "abstinence only"... which of course leads to unwanted pregnancies, and in turn, abortions.
...
Which has been a personal sticking point of mine... I would think that the Anti-Abortion folks would be doing themselves a great service by going after the source of the problem, not the effects of it. Teach people how to avoid the unwanted pregnancy, and solve your own problems with abortion.
that's the REAL issue, isn't it?
and that is where pro-choice people get all lumped together with the overtly religious. b/c i do believe there must be a good # of pro-lifers who DO endorse sex ed, easy BC access, etc.....but sadly the religious right is THE most vocal pro-life voice, and they overall are against sex ed, premarital sex certainly against most BC, etc....so they do not seem to truly want to solve the problem of abortion, but more like dictate what others do in their own bedrooms.
i also wonder just how many pro-lifers are truly against the use of IUDs and/or the morning after pill. i realize there are many who believe life begins *right* at conception, a sacred, human life (i believe life begins, but cell-life and a fully-formed, thinking/feeling human, not the same thing to me) and therefore both forms would be *murder*....but i would think, at least to some degree....there could be more acceptance there, far more preferential than abortion, no? it is said that the majority of sexually active women have at least one miscarriage in their life, unbeknownst to them - aka spontaneous abortion - so to me, this very, very early precaution of the morning after pill could do sooo MUCH to lower #s of abortions, even within the 'oops!' categories of unwanted pregnancies.
So are you suggesting that the couple made the decision to have an abortion BEFORE she became pregnant? Like, "What should we use for birth control, honey - pills, condoms, or abortion?" Because in my experience birth control decisions are made before pregnancy and abortion decisions are made after pregnancy has been established - at which point it's too late to make a decision about birth control.
Nope, it's the failure to address the issue and make a choice that leaves them with abortion. So, for individuals in those circumstances they have chosen not to use any other form of birth control so the en dup choosing abortion to keep from givng birth...thus birth control.
You talking about conception control....but abortion still is birth control.
I just think these are two separate decisions. It's not like abortion comes to mind during the decision-making process about birth control and it's not like birth control is an option during the decision-making process about how to handle a pregnancy. "Failure to address an issue" is necessarily NOT a DECISION to use abortion as birth control. I think "using abortion as birth control" implies a conscious decision to use this over another birth control method - and I don't think that's what happens.
Besides, those who don't use birth control and do acknowledge their risk of pregnancy might figure they'd have the baby if a pregnancy occurred. If ajedigecko's friend had to talk his girlfriend into having an abortion, it sounds like abortion wasn't her original intention.
i also wonder just how many pro-lifers are truly against the use of IUDs and/or the morning after pill. i realize there are many who believe life begins *right* at conception, a sacred, human life (i believe life begins, but cell-life and a fully-formed, thinking/feeling human, not the same thing to me) and therefore both forms would be *murder*....
And let's not forget regular birth control pills and most other forms of contraception, which can also prevent the implanation of a fertilized egg.
For someone that believes it's murder that is hardly an option. Just let other people decide if they are going to kill someone and hope that they choose not to? That's just silly.
...
The problem with both sides is Abortion.
All I'm trying to say is solve the problem of abortion without having the Government foceably intervene in your personal affairs is to go after the real source of the problem... the unwanted pregnancies. Work on ending the unwanted pregnancies and you end the decision that leads to abortion to be made.
I think this is exemplified by the fact that abortion isn't such a big issue in most Western European countries as is it in the U.S., which has one ofj the highest unintended pregnancy rates in the developed world.
After all, if this were inherently a heated issue, why is it not equally heated in the rest of the world?
Because no other Western country in the world is anywhere near as religious as America. A huge chunk of the pro-life movement is not just about abortion, it's about sexual politics and pushing a "no sex outside marriage" agenda... thus, abstinence only sex-ed, no access to birth control, etc.
Okay, here's another way to look at it....
Life...do we respect it? You can't say you respect the "life" of an unborn fetus, and then say it's okay to go to war, execute someone and..... OKAY here comes the big one...... kill animals.
This is a concept that arose in the East, but it's also one that I happen to internalize. And I know that we don't live in an ideal world. But I just don't get how people can say they are against abortion, because it is killing, yet they are content to have hundreds of animals slaughtered so they can fill their bellies. Eastern philosophies believe that life - any life - is a gift. They honor that gift by abstaining from taking part, or being associated, with any unnatural death.
I realize this seems idealistic to most of you, but imagine if most of us chose to live our lives that way.
Hmmm, I think John Lennon wrote a song about this, didn't he?
~I want to realize brotherhood or identity not merely with the beings called human, but I want to realize identity with all life, even with such things as crawl upon earth.~
Mohandas K. Gandhi
~I once had a sparrow alight upon my shoulder for a moment, while I was hoeing in a village garden, and I felt that I was more distinguished by that circumstance than I should have been by any epaulette I could have worn.~
Henry David Thoreau
It bothers me when people say "I don't believe in abortion". No, you don't AGREE with abortion. Abortions exist, you just may not like it. Unless your name is Cinderella and live in the Land of Make Believe, Please stop saying you don't believe in things that clearly exist.
Cause women only care about themselves.They make the final decision to spread there legs when the guy has no condom.So women I dont want to hear that shit it takes 2 .You make the final choice to have sex.By the way I'm the father of 6 with the same woman I have been married since 1985.So make better choices.
Cause women only care about themselves.They make the final decision to spread there legs when the guy has no condom.So women I dont want to hear that shit it takes 2 .You make the final choice to have sex.By the way I'm the father of 6 with the same woman I have been married since 1985.So make better choices.
Wow. Are you being serious?
So guys have no choice but to have unprotected sex? :roll: (Also, let's not forget that condoms don't always work.)
And the mother of your 6 children only cares about herself, huh? Fucking women. :roll: :roll:
Cause women only care about themselves.They make the final decision to spread there legs when the guy has no condom.So women I dont want to hear that shit it takes 2 .You make the final choice to have sex.By the way I'm the father of 6 with the same woman I have been married since 1985.So make better choices.
Damn, and I thought I was a woman-hating misogynist...
Cause women only care about themselves.They make the final decision to spread there legs when the guy has no condom.So women I dont want to hear that shit it takes 2 .You make the final choice to have sex.By the way I'm the father of 6 with the same woman I have been married since 1985.So make better choices.
Screw the condoms, and screw dumb women who only care about themselves :roll: . Just punch them in the ovary, that's what you should do. A straight shot. Right to the babymaker.
Cause women only care about themselves.They make the final decision to spread there legs when the guy has no condom.So women I dont want to hear that shit it takes 2 .You make the final choice to have sex.By the way I'm the father of 6 with the same woman I have been married since 1985.So make better choices.
so when a woman is raped, then its all her fault cuz she decided to "spread her legs" and let the man have at it.
Come on- get real. It does take 2- The man also has a responsibility to himself.
Your attitude just perpetuates the negative views on women in this issue. For some, having an abortion is not an easy choice. Don't just blame women on the choices that they make.
Cause women only care about themselves.They make the final decision to spread there legs when the guy has no condom.So women I dont want to hear that shit it takes 2 .You make the final choice to have sex.By the way I'm the father of 6 with the same woman I have been married since 1985.So make better choices.
Yeah... uh... I don't think anyone with 6 kids should be giving any advice about how to prevent pregnancy (or passing any judgement about those who fail to prevent it).
Cause women only care about themselves.They make the final decision to spread there legs when the guy has no condom.So women I dont want to hear that shit it takes 2 .You make the final choice to have sex.By the way I'm the father of 6 with the same woman I have been married since 1985.So make better choices.
Damn, and I thought I was a woman-hating misogynist...
Cause women only care about themselves.They make the final decision to spread there legs when the guy has no condom.So women I dont want to hear that shit it takes 2 .You make the final choice to have sex.By the way I'm the father of 6 with the same woman I have been married since 1985.So make better choices.
Yeah... uh... I don't think anyone with 6 kids should be giving any advice about how to prevent pregnancy (or passing any judgement about those who fail to prevent it).
hahaha good point.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Its such a heated issue cause many fell for the "your so special you cute human" propoganda. Once we admit there are too many of us, more will be okay with slowing down the consumption of Earth.
Comments
as cincy clearly illustrates, it is obviously linked to your personal beliefs in regards to the unborn life.
and if history teaches us nothing else..... it is evident that humanity can and does justify just about any actions in support of their individual causes.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
I agree whole heartedly.
The problem with both sides is Abortion.
All I'm trying to say is solve the problem of abortion without having the Government foceably intervene in your personal affairs is to go after the real source of the problem... the unwanted pregnancies. Work on ending the unwanted pregnancies and you end the decision that leads to abortion to be made.
Hail, Hail!!!
Yes, this is the unifying factor. You'd never know it with the way the media and the politicians in this country try to divide us.
Even if there was a magic machine invented that could move a woman back in time to the point where she was not pregnant... there would STILL be those who would oppose it.
Hail, Hail!!!
You mean a time machine??? What do you think UFOs are???
DRUMROLL...
...And the winner for best thread hi-jack goes to.........
such a good point! but it tends to also be conservative folk who are against any sex ed programs besides "abstinence only"... which of course leads to unwanted pregnancies, and in turn, abortions.
Which has been a personal sticking point of mine... I would think that the Anti-Abortion folks would be doing themselves a great service by going after the source of the problem, not the effects of it. Teach people how to avoid the unwanted pregnancy, and solve your own problems with abortion.
Hail, Hail!!!
Interesting analogy.
I don't think this is an accurate generalization of the pro-choice side.
So are you suggesting that the couple made the decision to have an abortion BEFORE she became pregnant? Like, "What should we use for birth control, honey - pills, condoms, or abortion?" Because in my experience birth control decisions are made before pregnancy and abortion decisions are made after pregnancy has been established - at which point it's too late to make a decision about birth control.
I think this is exemplified by the fact that abortion isn't such a big issue in most Western European countries as is it in the U.S., which has one ofj the highest unintended pregnancy rates in the developed world.
After all, if this were inherently a heated issue, why is it not equally heated in the rest of the world?
And this is what brings us back to the idea that much of this group is just trying to impose their moral and/or religious beliefs on others - they do it even when lives are NOT at stake and when backing off would actually prevent abortions.
You can't deny that there are some people who take no precautions because they are too lazy, selfish, careless, stupid, etc., but then decided after fact to get an abortion because they were too lazy, selfish, careless, stupid, etc., to use birth control.
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
This is true and it is a serious barrier to solving the issue.
Nope, it's the failure to address the issue and make a choice that leaves them with abortion. So, for individuals in those circumstances they have chosen not to use any other form of birth control so the en dup choosing abortion to keep from givng birth...thus birth control.
You talking about conception control....but abortion still is birth control.
that's the REAL issue, isn't it?
and that is where pro-choice people get all lumped together with the overtly religious. b/c i do believe there must be a good # of pro-lifers who DO endorse sex ed, easy BC access, etc.....but sadly the religious right is THE most vocal pro-life voice, and they overall are against sex ed, premarital sex certainly against most BC, etc....so they do not seem to truly want to solve the problem of abortion, but more like dictate what others do in their own bedrooms.
i also wonder just how many pro-lifers are truly against the use of IUDs and/or the morning after pill. i realize there are many who believe life begins *right* at conception, a sacred, human life (i believe life begins, but cell-life and a fully-formed, thinking/feeling human, not the same thing to me) and therefore both forms would be *murder*....but i would think, at least to some degree....there could be more acceptance there, far more preferential than abortion, no? it is said that the majority of sexually active women have at least one miscarriage in their life, unbeknownst to them - aka spontaneous abortion - so to me, this very, very early precaution of the morning after pill could do sooo MUCH to lower #s of abortions, even within the 'oops!' categories of unwanted pregnancies.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
I just think these are two separate decisions. It's not like abortion comes to mind during the decision-making process about birth control and it's not like birth control is an option during the decision-making process about how to handle a pregnancy. "Failure to address an issue" is necessarily NOT a DECISION to use abortion as birth control. I think "using abortion as birth control" implies a conscious decision to use this over another birth control method - and I don't think that's what happens.
Besides, those who don't use birth control and do acknowledge their risk of pregnancy might figure they'd have the baby if a pregnancy occurred. If ajedigecko's friend had to talk his girlfriend into having an abortion, it sounds like abortion wasn't her original intention.
And let's not forget regular birth control pills and most other forms of contraception, which can also prevent the implanation of a fertilized egg.
Because no other Western country in the world is anywhere near as religious as America. A huge chunk of the pro-life movement is not just about abortion, it's about sexual politics and pushing a "no sex outside marriage" agenda... thus, abstinence only sex-ed, no access to birth control, etc.
Life...do we respect it? You can't say you respect the "life" of an unborn fetus, and then say it's okay to go to war, execute someone and..... OKAY here comes the big one...... kill animals.
This is a concept that arose in the East, but it's also one that I happen to internalize. And I know that we don't live in an ideal world. But I just don't get how people can say they are against abortion, because it is killing, yet they are content to have hundreds of animals slaughtered so they can fill their bellies. Eastern philosophies believe that life - any life - is a gift. They honor that gift by abstaining from taking part, or being associated, with any unnatural death.
I realize this seems idealistic to most of you, but imagine if most of us chose to live our lives that way.
Hmmm, I think John Lennon wrote a song about this, didn't he?
Mohandas K. Gandhi
~I once had a sparrow alight upon my shoulder for a moment, while I was hoeing in a village garden, and I felt that I was more distinguished by that circumstance than I should have been by any epaulette I could have worn.~
Henry David Thoreau
That's my 2 cents.
Wow. Are you being serious?
So guys have no choice but to have unprotected sex? :roll: (Also, let's not forget that condoms don't always work.)
And the mother of your 6 children only cares about herself, huh? Fucking women. :roll: :roll:
Damn, and I thought I was a woman-hating misogynist...
Screw the condoms, and screw dumb women who only care about themselves :roll: . Just punch them in the ovary, that's what you should do. A straight shot. Right to the babymaker.
Come on- get real. It does take 2- The man also has a responsibility to himself.
Your attitude just perpetuates the negative views on women in this issue. For some, having an abortion is not an easy choice. Don't just blame women on the choices that they make.
Yeah... uh... I don't think anyone with 6 kids should be giving any advice about how to prevent pregnancy (or passing any judgement about those who fail to prevent it).
Excellent point.
hahaha good point.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."