I've read the entire thread up to this point and I'm glad to see an intelligent discussion regarding the captivity of Laura Ling and Euna Lee going on here. I am one of the people involved in the support effort and activism for Laura and Euna. I'm going to be detailing out efforts in another thread where you can find links to join as not to hijack the discussion here.
Yes, what they were doing was risky- they are journalists and if you are familiar with the work that Laura Ling has done with Current TV Vanguard Series you'll see that many of her stories involve exposing the suffering of others in hopes to tell the truth. I'm sure they knew there was a risk of being detained and I'm sure China knew they were in China. Their lives are at risk in the hard labor sentence they have been given. It is likely though that the ladies will be kept from these camps as bargaining chip- if they die there- NK has nothing.
There were two other people with Laura and Euna when they were kidnapped. The two other people are staying out of the limelight as much as possible for obvious reasons- their account is that they did not cross the boarder (which is an ongoing debate between China and North Korea, as to what country owns the river) but were taken by guards who crossed the river after them.
Current TV is still censoring posts regarding the ladies because we as Americans take freedom of speech for granted and tend to think it means we can say whatever flies from the top of our hot heads to anyone without consequence. There is obvious high political tension with the threats of continued nuclear missiles and it's a world concern where as I must say it is true that the journalists are out shined by this threat- it does not mean that we lie down and die.
North Korea is using the bully tactic. They have gone against prior agreements, fired off missile after missile and threatened war on anyone who opposes this. So what I hear is: "We're getting ready for war, and if you try to stop us, we're going to war." North Korea is a poor country with many sufferings. They have used others captives as negotiation tools in the past to gain aid to their country and this is likely one of those cases.
0
g under p
Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
but thats the point...they aren't guilty of espionage...or anything for that matter. so no, the death penalty would not be ok.
um yea so?
...
First point. I am not legitimizing the North Korean justice system... i believe it to be a farce.
That being said, regardless of what I think of their courts, the fact remains, it it their courts. Their courts found the two journalists guilty and sentenced them according to their laws (which I also believe are ridiculous). Since i don't think North Koreans have any business telling us how we should run our courts and which punishment should be imposed... I don't have any business telling them how to run theirs.All I can do is voice an opinion and try to get my government to negotiate their release.
well when they basically sentence our citizens to death for NO reason at all, they make it our business. which is exactly what they are trying to do. I'm not saying we should jump into all out war over this, but there should be consequences.
...
And the second part... if these journalists were not American... and were North Korean, Russian, Iranian or Chinese journalists... then, you wouldn't have any problems with it? Becasuse that is how I read your response.
of course I would care. if a Russian or Iranian get kidnapped and sentenced to death, I'll support them in getting their citizens back, but thats their problem, not mine.
not sure why you would I assume I wouldnt have a problem with others going through this.
...And what consequences would be appropriate?
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
hell if I know. probably none given the complexity of the situation. sanctions is really the only option I see...but those should be given for breaking the armistice agreement, not this.
It's terrible that these women are being used for propaganda. Also messsed up that the U.S. has no ground to stand on anymore after we have grabbed men from all over the world, flown them to Gitmo, and held them for years with no trial.
It's terrible that these women are being used for propaganda. Also messsed up that the U.S. has no ground to stand on anymore after we have grabbed men from all over the world, flown them to Gitmo, and held them for years with no trial.
It's terrible that these women are being used for propaganda. Also messsed up that the U.S. has no ground to stand on anymore after we have grabbed men from all over the world, flown them to Gitmo, and held them for years with no trial.
What goes around comes around.
These two women do not owe this debt to the world. They are not going to pay for the crimes of the U.S. gov has committed. Even if Nk said "We're keeping them b/c of all the detainees in Gitmo" it still wouldn't make up for the people who were detained in ways that are not acceptable to the detainment laws we employ in the U.S. Who the hell was surprised when Bush did something horrible?
Pre-packed cliches that allow shrugging of the shoulders is ignorance - makes it easier tho.
It's terrible that these women are being used for propaganda. Also messsed up that the U.S. has no ground to stand on anymore after we have grabbed men from all over the world, flown them to Gitmo, and held them for years with no trial.
What goes around comes around.
These two women do not owe this debt to the world. They are not going to pay for the crimes of the U.S. gov has committed. Even if Nk said "We're keeping them b/c of all the detainees in Gitmo" it still wouldn't make up for the people who were detained in ways that are not acceptable to the detainment laws we employ in the U.S. Who the hell was surprised when Bush did something horrible?
Pre-packed cliches that allow shrugging of the shoulders is ignorance - makes it easier tho.
Because of the behaviour of the U.S these past 6 years, you now have no moral high-ground from which to condemn the treatment of these individuals.
that was real dirty for you to do that I'll make sure to report that one to the mods for you ok.
Yep, the truth hurts.
And don't pretend to be offended by these photos. Everyone's seen them already. They've been posted all over the U.S mainstream media. If someone was to show photo's of Americans being mistreated you'd all scream bloody murder, but when photo's of Iraqi's being mistreated by Americans are shown you dismiss it as a dirty tactic....which is exactly the point of this discussion.
Like I said, America has lost it's moral high ground due to it's behaviour these past 6 years.
You reap what you sow.
Edit: Though it actually goes back a lot longer than 6 years.
that was real dirty for you to do that I'll make sure to report that one to the mods for you ok.
Do you seriously not see the irony of the situation after the way we've behaved with Gitmo? Just think about it. Hell, they even gave the two women a trial already (a idiotic show trial but a trial nonetheless) while we stuck people in a foreign country with no charges whatsoever. That is why our government is trying to work this out behind the scenes because we have no way of demanding their release without being laughed at publicly.
From an outsiders perspective it looks like she was trying to follow in her sisters footsteps and publish a piece about NK and has nothing to do with espionage. Now the question here is why would you come close to NK if one of your family members have published a piece bad-mouthing their government?
There have been documented cases of execution of dissidents and cases of PARTY LEADERS being sentenced to 10-15 years of hard labour because of exactly this. Even those SUSPECTED of it are sentenced. The sentence they got is actually a common sentence for those who speak ill of the NK government. Its usually 10 years of hard labour in a camp so it has nothing to do with them being Americans but its all to do with her sister publishing a piece about the government
For all those interested in the subject you should read "The Aquariums of Pyongyang". I've mentioned this book before on the website, its a worthwhile read and its not too long.
that was real dirty for you to do that I'll make sure to report that one to the mods for you ok.
Do you seriously not see the irony of the situation after the way we've behaved with Gitmo? Just think about it. Hell, they even gave the two women a trial already (a idiotic show trial but a trial nonetheless) while we stuck people in a foreign country with no charges whatsoever. That is why our government is trying to work this out behind the scenes because we have no way of demanding their release without being laughed at publicly.
Are you serious??? what the hell does N.k. have to do with gitmo? do you not realize how ridiculous you sound ? Are there any North Koreans in gitmo ? I didnt think so !!!! WTF man??? you guys are delirious.. These girls are Journalists they don't work for the U.S. Govt. If they did then you might have a leg to stand on . Jesus man you guys got some serious screws loose.
0
g under p
Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
that was real dirty for you to do that I'll make sure to report that one to the mods for you ok.
Do you seriously not see the irony of the situation after the way we've behaved with Gitmo? Just think about it. Hell, they even gave the two women a trial already (a idiotic show trial but a trial nonetheless) while we stuck people in a foreign country with no charges whatsoever. That is why our government is trying to work this out behind the scenes because we have no way of demanding their release without being laughed at publicly.
Are you serious??? what the hell does N.k. have to do with gitmo? do you not realize how ridiculous you sound ? Are there any North Koreans in gitmo ? I didnt think so !!!! WTF man??? you guys are delirious.. These girls are Journalists they don't work for the U.S. Govt. If they did then you might have a leg to stand on . Jesus man you guys got some serious screws loose.
Well we did imprison several people there who turned out to be innocent just like these reporters whom I believe are innocent too.
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
that was real dirty for you to do that I'll make sure to report that one to the mods for you ok.
Do you seriously not see the irony of the situation after the way we've behaved with Gitmo? Just think about it. Hell, they even gave the two women a trial already (a idiotic show trial but a trial nonetheless) while we stuck people in a foreign country with no charges whatsoever. That is why our government is trying to work this out behind the scenes because we have no way of demanding their release without being laughed at publicly.
Are you serious??? what the hell does N.k. have to do with gitmo? do you not realize how ridiculous you sound ? Are there any North Koreans in gitmo ? I didnt think so !!!! WTF man??? you guys are delirious.. These girls are Journalists they don't work for the U.S. Govt. If they did then you might have a leg to stand on . Jesus man you guys got some serious screws loose.
You are right, what was I thinking. How we treat the citizens of other nations has no bearing on the way other nations will treat our citizens.
I like ur argument immensely -- "We dont have any North Koreans in Gitmo so release our citizens !!!!".
You are right, what was I thinking. How we treat the citizens of other nations has no bearing on the way other nations will treat our citizens.
I like ur argument immensely -- "We dont have any North Koreans in Gitmo so release our citizens !!!!".
Don't you know that it's impossible for Americans to apply to themselves the same standards that they apply to others?
It's o.k for the U.S to torture and execute foreign nationals on U.S soil without due legal process and outside of the limits set down by the Geneva Convention, but if others do it to U.S nationals them it's barbaric and obscene.
whatever you say it sounds to me like you want these women to be in jail ,I really don't understand your logic behind this. Like I said I think you got some serious issues you need to deal with. What about all the american citizens that have been wrongly accused and sentenced and in some cases put to death. I don't hear you crying out for them.
Just curious but has anyone taken the time to look into the subject and stories that Laura Ling has done in the past? This was Euna Lees first assignment in the field but she worked at Current previous to this project.
If journalists didn't take risks there would be so much information for decades that we wouldn't have. Laura Ling has always done stories that bring attention to an areas suffering. It's only through knowledge that we can proceed intelligently towards our next endeavor.
Here's one where I half expected her to get shot- but NO ONE has given an account like this of the drug wars in Mexico. This is one of her more recent stories but she has many.. I don't know many people that would brave the efforts she's gone to, just to deliver the truth about situations.
please byrnzie Im not even gonna waste my energy on you. your not worth it because you only see what you want to see and hear what you want to hear. You want to Blame america for everything why dont you go take a look at that shit hole you live in. Hell you can barely even breath when you walk outside in china. why dont you go clean up your own back yard before you tell us how to clean ours.
Just curious but has anyone taken the time to look into the subject and stories that Laura Ling has done in the past? This was Euna Lees first assignment in the field but she worked at Current previous to this project.
If journalists didn't take risks there would be so much information for decades that we wouldn't have. Laura Ling has always done stories that bring attention to an areas suffering. It's only through knowledge that we can proceed intelligently towards our next endeavor.
Here's one where I half expected her to get shot- but NO ONE has given an account like this of the drug wars in Mexico. This is one of her more recent stories but she has many.. I don't know many people that would brave the efforts she's gone to, just to deliver the truth about situations.
whatever you say it sounds to me like you want these women to be in jail ,I really don't understand your logic behind this. Like I said I think you got some serious issues you need to deal with. What about all the american citizens that have been wrongly accused and sentenced and in some cases put to death. I don't hear you crying out for them.
Yes, i have serious issues because I can compare two situations to see action/reaction. I never came close to saying i want these women in jail. All i said was that the U.S. has lost any moral ground on demanding their release after what we have done to other people of nations around the world but you just dont want to admit that we fucked up big time with our "detainee" policy.
This thread was about these two women but if you want to start one about "all the american citizens that have been wrongly accused and sentenced and in some cases put to death" then i will definitely "cry out for them". Seems rather sad that it appears only wronged Americans affect you.
You are right, what was I thinking. How we treat the citizens of other nations has no bearing on the way other nations will treat our citizens.
I like ur argument immensely -- "We dont have any North Koreans in Gitmo so release our citizens !!!!".
Don't you know that it's impossible for Americans to apply to themselves the same standards that they apply to others?
It's o.k for the U.S to torture and execute foreign nationals on U.S soil without due legal process and outside of the limits set down by the Geneva Convention, but if others do it to U.S nationals them it's barbaric and obscene.
I know, sometimes I let reasoning and common sense take over my brain.
Do you not realize we are fighting a war on terrorism. There are mistakes made in every war that has ever been fought. These two have nothing to do with what you are referring to. and either does north Korea for that matter. If you didnt want these two to be imprisoned you would say so. but you haven't .
You are right, what was I thinking. How we treat the citizens of other nations has no bearing on the way other nations will treat our citizens.
I like ur argument immensely -- "We dont have any North Koreans in Gitmo so release our citizens !!!!".
Don't you know that it's impossible for Americans to apply to themselves the same standards that they apply to others?
It's o.k for the U.S to torture and execute foreign nationals on U.S soil without due legal process and outside of the limits set down by the Geneva Convention, but if others do it to U.S nationals them it's barbaric and obscene.
I know, sometimes I let reasoning and common sense take over my brain.
Well It's pretty fuckin simple either you want them released or you dont and I think you dont.
Do you not realize we are fighting a war on terrorism. There are mistakes made in every war that has ever been fought. These two have nothing to do with what you are referring to. and either does north Korea for that matter. If you didnt want these two to be imprisoned you would say so. but you haven't .
how many times does a village have to be completely wiped out "on accident" or "as collateral" before you realize the village was the target all along.
the "mistakes" don't seem like such an accident when they continue to repeat them.
Do you not realize we are fighting a war on terrorism. There are mistakes made in every war that has ever been fought. These two have nothing to do with what you are referring to. and either does north Korea for that matter. If you didnt want these two to be imprisoned you would say so. but you haven't .
I do not want or believe these two should be imprisoned.
The truth of my previous statements remains -- because of the recent policies of our country we no longer can stand on a soapbox and demand treatment for our citizens that we dont give citizens of other nations. It's a pretty simple concept.
well guess what? those policies aren't in play any more since Obama took office, Gitmo is going to be closed with no plans on where the hell they are going to put these people, and now we are going to have miranda rights read to the terrorist on the battlefields. And it's going to be our tax dollars defending these scumbags, people that want us all dead . I hope you're happy
well guess what? those policies aren't in play any more since Obama took office, Gitmo is going to be closed with no plans on where the hell they are going to put these people, and now we are going to have miranda rights read to the terrorist on the battlefields. And it's going to be our tax dollars defending these scumbags, people that want us all dead . I hope you're happy
I'm terribly sad that people will have access to legal rights to determine if they are innocent or guilty. Just downright sad. What has this nation become??!!
Comments
Yes, what they were doing was risky- they are journalists and if you are familiar with the work that Laura Ling has done with Current TV Vanguard Series you'll see that many of her stories involve exposing the suffering of others in hopes to tell the truth. I'm sure they knew there was a risk of being detained and I'm sure China knew they were in China. Their lives are at risk in the hard labor sentence they have been given. It is likely though that the ladies will be kept from these camps as bargaining chip- if they die there- NK has nothing.
There were two other people with Laura and Euna when they were kidnapped. The two other people are staying out of the limelight as much as possible for obvious reasons- their account is that they did not cross the boarder (which is an ongoing debate between China and North Korea, as to what country owns the river) but were taken by guards who crossed the river after them.
Current TV is still censoring posts regarding the ladies because we as Americans take freedom of speech for granted and tend to think it means we can say whatever flies from the top of our hot heads to anyone without consequence. There is obvious high political tension with the threats of continued nuclear missiles and it's a world concern where as I must say it is true that the journalists are out shined by this threat- it does not mean that we lie down and die.
North Korea is using the bully tactic. They have gone against prior agreements, fired off missile after missile and threatened war on anyone who opposes this. So what I hear is: "We're getting ready for war, and if you try to stop us, we're going to war." North Korea is a poor country with many sufferings. They have used others captives as negotiation tools in the past to gain aid to their country and this is likely one of those cases.
...And what consequences would be appropriate?
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
hell if I know. probably none given the complexity of the situation. sanctions is really the only option I see...but those should be given for breaking the armistice agreement, not this.
What goes around comes around.
These two women do not owe this debt to the world. They are not going to pay for the crimes of the U.S. gov has committed. Even if Nk said "We're keeping them b/c of all the detainees in Gitmo" it still wouldn't make up for the people who were detained in ways that are not acceptable to the detainment laws we employ in the U.S. Who the hell was surprised when Bush did something horrible?
Pre-packed cliches that allow shrugging of the shoulders is ignorance - makes it easier tho.
you see what jlew is talking about now ?
Because of the behaviour of the U.S these past 6 years, you now have no moral high-ground from which to condemn the treatment of these individuals.
You reap what you sow.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: Good I hope you never need our help.
Yep, the truth hurts.
And don't pretend to be offended by these photos. Everyone's seen them already. They've been posted all over the U.S mainstream media. If someone was to show photo's of Americans being mistreated you'd all scream bloody murder, but when photo's of Iraqi's being mistreated by Americans are shown you dismiss it as a dirty tactic....which is exactly the point of this discussion.
Like I said, America has lost it's moral high ground due to it's behaviour these past 6 years.
You reap what you sow.
Edit: Though it actually goes back a lot longer than 6 years.
Do you seriously not see the irony of the situation after the way we've behaved with Gitmo? Just think about it. Hell, they even gave the two women a trial already (a idiotic show trial but a trial nonetheless) while we stuck people in a foreign country with no charges whatsoever. That is why our government is trying to work this out behind the scenes because we have no way of demanding their release without being laughed at publicly.
There have been documented cases of execution of dissidents and cases of PARTY LEADERS being sentenced to 10-15 years of hard labour because of exactly this. Even those SUSPECTED of it are sentenced. The sentence they got is actually a common sentence for those who speak ill of the NK government. Its usually 10 years of hard labour in a camp so it has nothing to do with them being Americans but its all to do with her sister publishing a piece about the government
For all those interested in the subject you should read "The Aquariums of Pyongyang". I've mentioned this book before on the website, its a worthwhile read and its not too long.
Are you serious??? what the hell does N.k. have to do with gitmo? do you not realize how ridiculous you sound ? Are there any North Koreans in gitmo ? I didnt think so !!!! WTF man??? you guys are delirious.. These girls are Journalists they don't work for the U.S. Govt. If they did then you might have a leg to stand on . Jesus man you guys got some serious screws loose.
Well we did imprison several people there who turned out to be innocent just like these reporters whom I believe are innocent too.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
You are right, what was I thinking. How we treat the citizens of other nations has no bearing on the way other nations will treat our citizens.
I like ur argument immensely -- "We dont have any North Koreans in Gitmo so release our citizens !!!!".
Don't you know that it's impossible for Americans to apply to themselves the same standards that they apply to others?
It's o.k for the U.S to torture and execute foreign nationals on U.S soil without due legal process and outside of the limits set down by the Geneva Convention, but if others do it to U.S nationals them it's barbaric and obscene.
If journalists didn't take risks there would be so much information for decades that we wouldn't have. Laura Ling has always done stories that bring attention to an areas suffering. It's only through knowledge that we can proceed intelligently towards our next endeavor.
Here's one where I half expected her to get shot- but NO ONE has given an account like this of the drug wars in Mexico. This is one of her more recent stories but she has many.. I don't know many people that would brave the efforts she's gone to, just to deliver the truth about situations.
Long video but I've seen it a few times on Current:
http://current.com/items/89845362_narco-war-next-door.htm
Her link at Current http://current.com/users/lauraling.htm
what about the story she did on MS-13 ? that took alot of guts to go in those prisons down in mexico and central america.
Yes, i have serious issues because I can compare two situations to see action/reaction. I never came close to saying i want these women in jail. All i said was that the U.S. has lost any moral ground on demanding their release after what we have done to other people of nations around the world but you just dont want to admit that we fucked up big time with our "detainee" policy.
This thread was about these two women but if you want to start one about "all the american citizens that have been wrongly accused and sentenced and in some cases put to death" then i will definitely "cry out for them". Seems rather sad that it appears only wronged Americans affect you.
I know, sometimes I let reasoning and common sense take over my brain.
Well It's pretty fuckin simple either you want them released or you dont and I think you dont.
how many times does a village have to be completely wiped out "on accident" or "as collateral" before you realize the village was the target all along.
the "mistakes" don't seem like such an accident when they continue to repeat them.
I do not want or believe these two should be imprisoned.
The truth of my previous statements remains -- because of the recent policies of our country we no longer can stand on a soapbox and demand treatment for our citizens that we dont give citizens of other nations. It's a pretty simple concept.
No, that's pretty fuckin simpleton.
I'm terribly sad that people will have access to legal rights to determine if they are innocent or guilty. Just downright sad. What has this nation become??!!