U.S. marshals to protect abortion clinics and doctors

24

Comments

  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    jlew24asu wrote:
    soulsinging wrote:

    I think we flirted with it under Bush, but I think overall that's not really accurate. We definitely have a sizable fundamentalist extremist contingent, but they're nowhere near a majority. They just managed to dupe the majority into electing their guys for a few years. I think we've wised up a bit.

    define sizable fundamentalist extremist? did we have an increase in car bombs during the bush years? and increase in abortion doctors being killed? (actually I read there were none). the only time American's go a little crazy was immediately after 9/11 when a few Arabs were harassed. big deal.

    in your eyes, anyone who goes to church on a consistent basis is probably a fundamentalist extremist

    There was no need, they thought their guy was in office fighting the good fight. Was it the other thread that pointed out the discrepancy between such acts of violence under Clinton vs Bush? When they think they've got the upper hand, they don't need to get violent. And Bush's rhetoric and behavior in the international arena sure as hell alarmed me. Now he's out and the godless lib is in and in no time we get our first clinic assassination in years? Maybe it is coincidence, but it's certainly an alarming one.

    I define fundamentalist extremists as anyone that does not recognize the RIGHT of others to practice their own religion and makes an effort to establish only one acceptable faith and impose it on all. It doesn't necessarily have to be violent... Phelps, for instance, has never killed anyone that I'm aware of, but I consider him a fundamentalist extremist. I think it was such people that put Bush back into office in 2004, based on things like his constant yammering about how Jesus tells him who to invade and when and the stem cell/global gag rules he adopted. It seemed for a little bit there that they had the numbers and influence to run the country. I think the last election allayed my fears, but I think the revelation that they don't may lead to more "extreme" measures than abuse of executive power in the years ahead. We shall see.

    As to the last comment, don't be ridiculous. My mother goes to her Catholic mass weekly and I hardly consider her, or most of my other religious acquaintances extremist. My brother is involved in all kinds of young life religious conversion ministry, and while I think he's a Bible-thumping weirdo trying to suck kids into a cult, I don't think he's a fundamentalist extremist. Extremists can be as dramatically dangerous as this abortion shooter, or as subtly corrosive as the minority whiner parents that raise such a vocal stink that they manage to shout down the majority enough to get harmless books like Harry Potter banned from public schools and libraries for all based on their belief that it is Satanic.
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    Dr. Warren Hern's statement about the murder of Kansas abortion doctor
    The Denver Post
    Posted: 06/01/2009 09:09:41 AM MDT
    Updated: 06/01/2009 09:11:39 AM MDT

    George Tiller, my friend and colleague, was assassinated by an anti-abortion fanatic this morning as he was acting as an usher at his Lutheran Church in Wichita, Kansas. It is an unspeakable and horrible tragedy for Dr. Tiller's family and friends, but it is the inevitable and predictable consequence of decades of anti-abortion hate speech, violence, intimidation, and harassment of women and their doctors.

    Dr. Tiller is the fifth American abortion doctor who has been assassinated since 1993. Other clinic workers have also been murdered by anti-abortion fanatics.

    Dr. Tiller was a dedicated and courageous physician who continued to help women in spite of thousands of anti-abortion demonstrations at his office, home, and church, thousands of death threats, one previous assassination attempt when he was shot in both arms in 1993, mindless legislative and official persecution by Kansas authorities, and innumerable legal attacks on his critical medical service for women.

    The people of this country need to know that we do not need to invade other countries to find terrorists: they are right here killing abortion doctors. The American anti-abortion movement is the face of fascism in America. It exploits and is exploited by the darkest right-wing political forces in this country.

    Dr. Tiller's assassination is not the lone and inexplicable action of one deranged killer. This was a political assassination in a historic pattern of antiabortion political violence. It was terrorism. It was about power.

    Dr. Tiller was assassinated because he represented an idea: freedom. He helped women. We must ask: what is the difference between this terrorism and the Taliban?
  • VINNY GOOMBA
    VINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,826
    scb wrote:
    Dr. Warren Hern's statement about the murder of Kansas abortion doctor
    The Denver Post
    Posted: 06/01/2009 09:09:41 AM MDT
    Updated: 06/01/2009 09:11:39 AM MDT

    George Tiller, my friend and colleague, was assassinated by an anti-abortion fanatic this morning as he was acting as an usher at his Lutheran Church in Wichita, Kansas. It is an unspeakable and horrible tragedy for Dr. Tiller's family and friends, but it is the inevitable and predictable consequence of decades of anti-abortion hate speech, violence, intimidation, and harassment of women and their doctors.

    Dr. Tiller is the fifth American abortion doctor who has been assassinated since 1993. Other clinic workers have also been murdered by anti-abortion fanatics.

    Dr. Tiller was a dedicated and courageous physician who continued to help women in spite of thousands of anti-abortion demonstrations at his office, home, and church, thousands of death threats, one previous assassination attempt when he was shot in both arms in 1993, mindless legislative and official persecution by Kansas authorities, and innumerable legal attacks on his critical medical service for women.

    The people of this country need to know that we do not need to invade other countries to find terrorists: they are right here killing abortion doctors. The American anti-abortion movement is the face of fascism in America. It exploits and is exploited by the darkest right-wing political forces in this country.

    Dr. Tiller's assassination is not the lone and inexplicable action of one deranged killer. This was a political assassination in a historic pattern of antiabortion political violence. It was terrorism. It was about power.

    Dr. Tiller was assassinated because he represented an idea: freedom. He helped women. We must ask: what is the difference between this terrorism and the Taliban?

    What happened to Tiller was awful and wrong. But seriously, must we use the "T" word? There's no quicker way to put this whole country on lockdown than to start calling people "terrorists." I'd rather we string 20 absolutely obscene words together, in a row, everytime we describe the guy who killed Tiller, rather than call him a "terrorist" which is only going to fuck us all in the end.
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    VINNY GOOMBA wrote:
    What happened to Tiller was awful and wrong. But seriously, must we use the "T" word? There's no quicker way to put this whole country on lockdown than to start calling people "terrorists." I'd rather we string 20 absolutely obscene words together, in a row, everytime we describe the guy who killed Tiller, rather than call him a "terrorist" which is only going to fuck us all in the end.

    Maybe Dr. Hern is a little more sensitive about it than most people since he's next on the hit list.
  • Anon
    Anon Posts: 11,175
    VINNY GOOMBA wrote:
    The only thing this country is extreme on is its apathy.


    ....and knee-jerk reactions.
  • VINNY GOOMBA
    VINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,826
    JB811 wrote:
    VINNY GOOMBA wrote:
    The only thing this country is extreme on is its apathy.


    ....and knee-jerk reactions.

    Yup. Hence my problem with calling Tiller's murderer a "terrorist." Nothing good can come out of any of this.
  • tybird
    tybird Posts: 17,388
    As a believer in freedom, I hate to bring up this idea....but something needs to be done. This argument needs a time-out....a cooling off period. It might be time for the Feds to say....no anti-abortion or pro-abortion protests or rallies for the next year...or two. None....zip....zilch...either side. The issue won't go away....but the atmosphere is too charged right now.
    All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    VINNY GOOMBA wrote:
    JB811 wrote:
    VINNY GOOMBA wrote:
    The only thing this country is extreme on is its apathy.


    ....and knee-jerk reactions.

    Yup. Hence my problem with calling Tiller's murderer a "terrorist." Nothing good can come out of any of this.

    I wouldn't consider Dr. Tiller's murder a knee-jerk reaction though. He has been on anti-choice hit lists and received death threats from people within this movement for many, many years. He had been shot before and lived. His clinic has been bombed, etc.

    The guy who killed him was a clinic protester and had vandalized abortion clinics in the past, including gluing the locks on another local clinic the day before the murder and earlier in the week. He had been convicted (although it was overturned due to an "illegal search") in the past of having materials to make home-made bombs. He had posted on anti-choice websites about how Dr. Tiller should be paid a visit at church.

    I think we need to recognize that this happened within the larger context of the anti-abortion movement. Just because not every member of this movement condones every action of every other member doesn't mean there's not a bigger picture. It wasn't just an isolated, impulsive incident.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    how many late term abortions has Tiller done in his career?
  • WaveCameCrashin
    WaveCameCrashin Posts: 2,929
    jlew24asu wrote:
    how many late term abortions has Tiller done in his career?

    Estimated 60,000
  • VINNY GOOMBA
    VINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,826
    edited June 2009
    scb wrote:
    I think we need to recognize that this happened within the larger context of the anti-abortion movement. Just because not every member of this movement condones every action of every other member doesn't mean there's not a bigger picture. It wasn't just an isolated, impulsive incident.

    The "knee jerk" reaction that I was referring to was more about labeling this guy a "terrorist."

    Of course it happened within the larger context of the anti-abortion movement. How couldn't it? Unless I'm misinterpreting what you wrote, this guy is a one-man subset of the anti-abortion movement that happens to be an insane hypocrite-- he definitely exists within the larger context. Five deaths since '93 is awful-- but you're talking about people who are beyond angry over what they believe to be millions of slain, innocent people, and fully believe they are justified in taking the lives of the doctors performing this service. If this wasn't an isolated incident, you can bet that there would be a lot more of this going on, while there clearly isn't.

    I can just as easily say that within the larger context of the pro-choice movement that there are people who use abortion as a form of birth control-- as in, "OOPS! I'm pregnant again! Honey get the keys, we're going to the clinic!" --which is equally dispicable as what this guy has done. Although this is probably pretty rare, I know for a fact that it's happened more than 5 times since '93. I don't let this "reason" speak for the other more sensible people who have arguable reasons for abortion, to save the mother's life, for one.

    It's volatile out there right now. I'm not going to say that you won't see a copycat crime here, but for the most part, people who oppose abortion oppose it because they have respect for human life-- even for those who murder. The death penalty is the exception for a lot of these people, and the arguments in favor of the death penalty are because judgement has been officially passed by the state, and it's one less person that has potential to harm society again. I personally do not subscribe to that belief. People who are truly guilty of heinous crimes can spend the rest of their lives in prison.

    Bottomline, there's nutcases with causes everywhere, in every group. As far as the anti-abortion movement goes, they could be a lot "nuttier" considering the absolute defenselessness of the group they are protecting. The guy who killed Tiller is one in a million.
    Post edited by VINNY GOOMBA on
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,880
    scb wrote:
    Dr. Warren Hern's statement about the murder of Kansas abortion doctor
    The Denver Post
    Posted: 06/01/2009 09:09:41 AM MDT
    Updated: 06/01/2009 09:11:39 AM MDT

    George Tiller, my friend and colleague, was assassinated by an anti-abortion fanatic this morning as he was acting as an usher at his Lutheran Church in Wichita, Kansas. It is an unspeakable and horrible tragedy for Dr. Tiller's family and friends, but it is the inevitable and predictable consequence of decades of anti-abortion hate speech, violence, intimidation, and harassment of women and their doctors.

    Dr. Tiller is the fifth American abortion doctor who has been assassinated since 1993. Other clinic workers have also been murdered by anti-abortion fanatics.

    Dr. Tiller was a dedicated and courageous physician who continued to help women in spite of thousands of anti-abortion demonstrations at his office, home, and church, thousands of death threats, one previous assassination attempt when he was shot in both arms in 1993, mindless legislative and official persecution by Kansas authorities, and innumerable legal attacks on his critical medical service for women.

    The people of this country need to know that we do not need to invade other countries to find terrorists: they are right here killing abortion doctors. The American anti-abortion movement is the face of fascism in America. It exploits and is exploited by the darkest right-wing political forces in this country.

    Dr. Tiller's assassination is not the lone and inexplicable action of one deranged killer. This was a political assassination in a historic pattern of antiabortion political violence. It was terrorism. It was about power.

    Dr. Tiller was assassinated because he represented an idea: freedom. He helped women. We must ask: what is the difference between this terrorism and the Taliban?

    Oh please...paint everyone that is anti-abortion with the same brush. What an ass.

    What is the difference between the idiot fundamentalists that use violence and fear to stop abortions and this idiot trying to use fear tactics and a call of action against all anti-abortion people?
    hippiemom = goodness
  • Anon
    Anon Posts: 11,175
    prfctlefts wrote:
    jlew24asu wrote:
    how many late term abortions has Tiller done in his career?

    Estimated 60,000


    wow. That is sick.
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    prfctlefts wrote:
    jlew24asu wrote:
    how many late term abortions has Tiller done in his career?

    Estimated 60,000

    Source, please?
  • WaveCameCrashin
    WaveCameCrashin Posts: 2,929
    VINNY GOOMBA wrote:
    scb wrote:
    I think we need to recognize that this happened within the larger context of the anti-abortion movement. Just because not every member of this movement condones every action of every other member doesn't mean there's not a bigger picture. It wasn't just an isolated, impulsive incident.

    The "knee jerk" reaction that I was referring to was more about labeling this guy a "terrorist."

    Of course it happened within the larger context of the anti-abortion movement. How couldn't it? Unless I'm misinterpreting what you wrote, this guy is a one-man subset of the anti-abortion movement that happens to be an insane hypocrite-- he definitely exists within the larger context. Five deaths since '93 is awful-- but you're talking about people who are beyond angry over what they believe to be millions of slain, innocent people, and fully believe they are justified in taking the lives of the doctors performing this service. If this wasn't an isolated incident, you can bet that there would be a lot more of this going on, while there clearly isn't.

    I can just as easily say that within the larger context of the pro-choice movement that there are people who use abortion as a form of birth control-- as in, "OOPS! I'm pregnant again! Honey get the keys, we're going to the clinic!" --which is equally dispicable as what this guy has done. Although this is probably pretty rare, I know for a fact that it's happened more than 5 times since '93. I don't let this "reason" speak for the other more sensible people who have arguable reasons for abortion, to save the mother's life, for one.

    It's volatile out there right now. I'm not going to say that you won't see a copycat crime here, but for the most part, people who oppose abortion oppose it because they have respect for human life-- even for those who murder. The death penalty is the exception for a lot of these people, and the arguments in favor of the death penalty are because judgement has been officially passed by the state, and it's one less person that has potential to harm society again. I personally do not subscribe to that belief. People who are truly guilty of heinous crimes can spend the rest of their lives in prison.

    Bottomline, there's nutcases with causes everywhere, in every group. As far as the anti-abortion movement goes, they could be a lot "nuttier" considering the absolute defenselessness of the group they are protecting. The guy who killed Tiller is one in a million.

    Right on V.G.
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    VINNY GOOMBA wrote:
    scb wrote:
    I think we need to recognize that this happened within the larger context of the anti-abortion movement. Just because not every member of this movement condones every action of every other member doesn't mean there's not a bigger picture. It wasn't just an isolated, impulsive incident.

    The "knee jerk" reaction that I was referring to was more about labeling this guy a "terrorist."

    I misunderstood you then.
  • WaveCameCrashin
    WaveCameCrashin Posts: 2,929
    Estimated 60,000 http://www.dr-tiller.com/biography.htm
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    cincybearcat wrote:
    scb wrote:
    The people of this country need to know that we do not need to invade other countries to find terrorists: they are right here killing abortion doctors.

    Dr. Tiller's assassination is not the lone and inexplicable action of one deranged killer. This was a political assassination in a historic pattern of antiabortion political violence. It was terrorism. It was about power.

    Oh please...paint everyone that is anti-abortion with the same brush. What an ass.

    I'm pretty sure he didn't say all anti-choice folks are terrorists. "Terrorists... are right here killing abortion doctors." "This... assassination... was terrorism." Seems to only be using that word to describe those who actually commit murder in the name of what he calls a fascist movement.
  • VINNY GOOMBA
    VINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,826
    scb wrote:
    VINNY GOOMBA wrote:
    scb wrote:
    I think we need to recognize that this happened within the larger context of the anti-abortion movement. Just because not every member of this movement condones every action of every other member doesn't mean there's not a bigger picture. It wasn't just an isolated, impulsive incident.

    The "knee jerk" reaction that I was referring to was more about labeling this guy a "terrorist."

    I misunderstood you then.

    It's all good. What I said wasn't very specific, that's for sure. And I wouldn't doubt that this guy didn't plot doing this to Tiller for quite some time, so I agree with you that his actions weren't impulsive or knee jerk.
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    prfctlefts wrote:
    Estimated 60,000 http://www.dr-tiller.com/biography.htm

    Your source says Dr. Tiller has performed about 60,00 TOTAL abortions. You were asked how many LATE-TERM abortion he has performed. No need to misrepresent the statistics.

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