I think we need to recognize that this happened within the larger context of the anti-abortion movement. Just because not every member of this movement condones every action of every other member doesn't mean there's not a bigger picture. It wasn't just an isolated, impulsive incident.
The "knee jerk" reaction that I was referring to was more about labeling this guy a "terrorist."
Of course it happened within the larger context of the anti-abortion movement. How couldn't it? Unless I'm misinterpreting what you wrote, this guy is a one-man subset of the anti-abortion movement that happens to be an insane hypocrite-- he definitely exists within the larger context. Five deaths since '93 is awful-- but you're talking about people who are beyond angry over what they believe to be millions of slain, innocent people, and fully believe they are justified in taking the lives of the doctors performing this service. If this wasn't an isolated incident, you can bet that there would be a lot more of this going on, while there clearly isn't.
I can just as easily say that within the larger context of the pro-choice movement that there are people who use abortion as a form of birth control-- as in, "OOPS! I'm pregnant again! Honey get the keys, we're going to the clinic!" --which is equally dispicable as what this guy has done. Although this is probably pretty rare, I know for a fact that it's happened more than 5 times since '93. I don't let this "reason" speak for the other more sensible people who have arguable reasons for abortion, to save the mother's life, for one.
It's volatile out there right now. I'm not going to say that you won't see a copycat crime here, but for the most part, people who oppose abortion oppose it because they have respect for human life-- even for those who murder. The death penalty is the exception for a lot of these people, and the arguments in favor of the death penalty are because judgement has been officially passed by the state, and it's one less person that has potential to harm society again. I personally do not subscribe to that belief. People who are truly guilty of heinous crimes can spend the rest of their lives in prison.
Bottomline, there's nutcases with causes everywhere, in every group. As far as the anti-abortion movement goes, they could be a lot "nuttier" considering the absolute defenselessness of the group they are protecting. The guy who killed Tiller is one in a million.
Dr. Warren Hern's statement about the murder of Kansas abortion doctor
The Denver Post
Posted: 06/01/2009 09:09:41 AM MDT
Updated: 06/01/2009 09:11:39 AM MDT
George Tiller, my friend and colleague, was assassinated by an anti-abortion fanatic this morning as he was acting as an usher at his Lutheran Church in Wichita, Kansas. It is an unspeakable and horrible tragedy for Dr. Tiller's family and friends, but it is the inevitable and predictable consequence of decades of anti-abortion hate speech, violence, intimidation, and harassment of women and their doctors.
Dr. Tiller is the fifth American abortion doctor who has been assassinated since 1993. Other clinic workers have also been murdered by anti-abortion fanatics.
Dr. Tiller was a dedicated and courageous physician who continued to help women in spite of thousands of anti-abortion demonstrations at his office, home, and church, thousands of death threats, one previous assassination attempt when he was shot in both arms in 1993, mindless legislative and official persecution by Kansas authorities, and innumerable legal attacks on his critical medical service for women.
The people of this country need to know that we do not need to invade other countries to find terrorists: they are right here killing abortion doctors. The American anti-abortion movement is the face of fascism in America. It exploits and is exploited by the darkest right-wing political forces in this country.
Dr. Tiller's assassination is not the lone and inexplicable action of one deranged killer. This was a political assassination in a historic pattern of antiabortion political violence. It was terrorism. It was about power.
Dr. Tiller was assassinated because he represented an idea: freedom. He helped women. We must ask: what is the difference between this terrorism and the Taliban?
Oh please...paint everyone that is anti-abortion with the same brush. What an ass.
What is the difference between the idiot fundamentalists that use violence and fear to stop abortions and this idiot trying to use fear tactics and a call of action against all anti-abortion people?
I think we need to recognize that this happened within the larger context of the anti-abortion movement. Just because not every member of this movement condones every action of every other member doesn't mean there's not a bigger picture. It wasn't just an isolated, impulsive incident.
The "knee jerk" reaction that I was referring to was more about labeling this guy a "terrorist."
Of course it happened within the larger context of the anti-abortion movement. How couldn't it? Unless I'm misinterpreting what you wrote, this guy is a one-man subset of the anti-abortion movement that happens to be an insane hypocrite-- he definitely exists within the larger context. Five deaths since '93 is awful-- but you're talking about people who are beyond angry over what they believe to be millions of slain, innocent people, and fully believe they are justified in taking the lives of the doctors performing this service. If this wasn't an isolated incident, you can bet that there would be a lot more of this going on, while there clearly isn't.
I can just as easily say that within the larger context of the pro-choice movement that there are people who use abortion as a form of birth control-- as in, "OOPS! I'm pregnant again! Honey get the keys, we're going to the clinic!" --which is equally dispicable as what this guy has done. Although this is probably pretty rare, I know for a fact that it's happened more than 5 times since '93. I don't let this "reason" speak for the other more sensible people who have arguable reasons for abortion, to save the mother's life, for one.
It's volatile out there right now. I'm not going to say that you won't see a copycat crime here, but for the most part, people who oppose abortion oppose it because they have respect for human life-- even for those who murder. The death penalty is the exception for a lot of these people, and the arguments in favor of the death penalty are because judgement has been officially passed by the state, and it's one less person that has potential to harm society again. I personally do not subscribe to that belief. People who are truly guilty of heinous crimes can spend the rest of their lives in prison.
Bottomline, there's nutcases with causes everywhere, in every group. As far as the anti-abortion movement goes, they could be a lot "nuttier" considering the absolute defenselessness of the group they are protecting. The guy who killed Tiller is one in a million.
I think we need to recognize that this happened within the larger context of the anti-abortion movement. Just because not every member of this movement condones every action of every other member doesn't mean there's not a bigger picture. It wasn't just an isolated, impulsive incident.
The "knee jerk" reaction that I was referring to was more about labeling this guy a "terrorist."
The people of this country need to know that we do not need to invade other countries to find terrorists: they are right here killing abortion doctors.
Dr. Tiller's assassination is not the lone and inexplicable action of one deranged killer. This was a political assassination in a historic pattern of antiabortion political violence. It was terrorism. It was about power.
Oh please...paint everyone that is anti-abortion with the same brush. What an ass.
I'm pretty sure he didn't say all anti-choice folks are terrorists. "Terrorists... are right here killing abortion doctors." "This... assassination... was terrorism." Seems to only be using that word to describe those who actually commit murder in the name of what he calls a fascist movement.
I think we need to recognize that this happened within the larger context of the anti-abortion movement. Just because not every member of this movement condones every action of every other member doesn't mean there's not a bigger picture. It wasn't just an isolated, impulsive incident.
The "knee jerk" reaction that I was referring to was more about labeling this guy a "terrorist."
I misunderstood you then.
It's all good. What I said wasn't very specific, that's for sure. And I wouldn't doubt that this guy didn't plot doing this to Tiller for quite some time, so I agree with you that his actions weren't impulsive or knee jerk.
Your source says Dr. Tiller has performed about 60,00 TOTAL abortions. You were asked how many LATE-TERM abortion he has performed. No need to misrepresent the statistics.
Your source says Dr. Tiller has performed about 60,00 TOTAL abortions. You were asked how many LATE-TERM abortion he has performed. No need to misrepresent the statistics.
The people of this country need to know that we do not need to invade other countries to find terrorists: they are right here killing abortion doctors.
Dr. Tiller's assassination is not the lone and inexplicable action of one deranged killer. This was a political assassination in a historic pattern of antiabortion political violence. It was terrorism. It was about power.
Oh please...paint everyone that is anti-abortion with the same brush. What an ass.
I'm pretty sure he didn't say all anti-choice folks are terrorists. "Terrorists... are right here killing abortion doctors." "This... assassination... was terrorism." Seems to only be using that word to describe those who actually commit murder in the name of what he calls a fascist movement.
"The American anti-abortion movement is the face of fascism in America."
Seems to me he is hurting because he lost a friend...or he is an ass.
"Anti-choice" nice..."baby killer" I'm f'in sick of the Bullshit, backhanded labels.
"Anti-choice" nice..."baby killer" I'm f'in sick of the Bullshit, backhanded labels.
I didn't mean "anti-choice" as an insult; I'm just trying to be accurate about who I'm referring to. I'm not referring to all people who are pro-life - only the anti-choice ones. After all the conversations you and I have had about these labels, I'd think you would know that by now. I'm specifically trying to avoid "painting everyone who is anti-abortion with the same brush." I guess we pro-choice folks just can't win with you. :?
"Anti-choice" nice..."baby killer" I'm f'in sick of the Bullshit, backhanded labels.
I didn't mean "anti-choice" as an insult; I'm just trying to be accurate about who I'm referring to. I'm not referring to all people who are pro-life - only the anti-choice ones. After all the conversations you and I have had about these labels, I'd think you would know that by now. I'm specifically trying to avoid "painting everyone who is anti-abortion with the same brush." I guess we pro-choice folks just can't win with you. :?
Sorry, hit a nerve. Anti-abortion works fine...I love people abe to make their own choices when it doesn't effect the lives of others.
To quote the late, great George Carlin about pro-life activists:
"These people aren't pro-life, their killing doctors. What kind of pro-life is that? They'll do anything they can to save a fetus but if it grows up to be an (abortion) doctor they just might have to kill it. Their not pro-life, their anti-woman."
Suspect in doctor's death warns of violence
Man is charged in the shooting death of abortion provider Dr. George Tiller
WICHITA, Kansas - The man charged with murdering a high-profile abortion doctor claimed from his jail cell Sunday that similar violence was planned around the nation for as long as the procedure remained legal, a threat that comes days after a federal investigation launched into his possible accomplices.
A Justice Department spokesman said the threat was being taken seriously and additional protection had been ordered for abortion clinics last week. But a leader of the anti-abortion movement derided the accused shooter as "a fruit and a lunatic."
Scott Roeder called The Associated Press from the Sedgwick County jail, where he's being held on charges of first-degree murder and aggravated assault in the shooting of Dr. George Tiller one week ago.
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"I know there are many other similar events planned around the country as long as abortion remains legal," Roeder said. He would not elaborate.
Tiller shot at church
Tiller's clinic in Wichita was among only a few in the U.S. that perform third-trimester abortions. He was shot while serving as an usher at the Lutheran church he attended.
Asked if he shot Tiller, Roeder replied that he could not comment about that and said he needed to clear everything with his lawyer.
Justice Department spokesman Matthew Miller said in a written statement Sunday that "we take this matter seriously, which is why the Attorney General ordered increased protection of appropriate people and facilities last week."
Tiller's clinic had been a target of regular demonstrations by abortion opponents. Most were peaceful, but his clinic was bombed in 1986 and he was shot in both arms in 1993. In 1991, a 45-day "Summer of Mercy" campaign organized by Operation Rescue drew thousands of abortion opponents to Wichita, and there were more than 2,700 arrests.
Jim Cross, a spokesman for the U.S. attorney's office, did not immediately comment Sunday on Roeder's statement.
The Justice Department opened an investigation Friday to see if the gunman who killed Tiller had accomplices. The DOJ said its Civil Rights Division and the U.S. attorney's office in Kansas will investigate whether the killing violated a 1994 law creating criminal penalties for violent or damaging conduct toward abortion providers and their patients.
'Hare-brained phone call'
An attorney for the Tiller family, Dan Monnat, said he wasn't sure they should be dignifying Roeder's actions and threats with a response "every time he makes a hare-brained phone call."
"I am hopeful that state and federal authorities, including Homeland Security, will give Mr. Roeder and his information a deserving response," Monnat said, declining to elaborate.
Nancy Keenan president of NARAL-Pro-Choice America, said Roeder's comments "continue to escalate that kind of activity, that kind of violence. Quite honestly, I think it's imperative for anti-choice groups to tone down that rhetoric and keep the more extreme elements in their movement form copying Scott Roeder."
A funeral was held Saturday for Tiller. Most anti-abortion groups avoided the service, having denounced Tiller's shooting.
Troy Newman, president of the anti-abortion group Operation Rescue, read about Roeder's statement and e-mailed The Associated Press, saying: "This guy is a fruit and a lunatic."
Roeder, a 51-year-old abortion opponent, was arrested a few hours after the shooting just outside Kansas City.
He told the AP he refused to talk to investigators when he was arrested, and has made no statements to police since then.
"I just told them I needed to talk to my lawyer," Roeder said.
Needs his sleep apnea machine
In two separate calls to AP on Sunday morning, Roeder was far more talkative about his treatment at the Sedgwick County jail, complaining about "deplorable conditions in solitary" where he was kept during his first three days there.
Sedgwick County Sheriff Robert Hinshaw said that Roeder is receiving appropriate medical treatment.
"It is after all a jail, but a modern state-of-the-art facility with professional staff," Hinshaw said. "While Mr. Roeder may not care for being in the Sedgwick County jail, all of our conditions and policies are designed to provide safety and security for all inmates, staff and public at large."
Roeder said it was freezing in his cell. "I started having a bad cough. I thought I was going to have pneumonia," he said.
He said he called AP because he wanted to emphasize the conditions in the jail so that in the future suspects would not have to endure the same conditions.
Roeder also said he wanted the public to know he has been denied phone privileges for the past two days, and needed his sleep apnea machine.
"The very word 'secrecy' is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings."
- J.F.K
"If you're not scared, I'm not doing my job."
- Stephen Colbert
To quote the late, great George Carlin about pro-life activists:
"These people aren't pro-life, their killing doctors. What kind of pro-life is that? They'll do anything they can to save a fetus but if it grows up to be an (abortion) doctor they just might have to kill it. Their not pro-life, their anti-woman."
once again, 1/2 truths. Always have to add that last statement of pure BS that then makes everything else they say mean so much less.
There are a couple of things I see about the abortion issue that kinda puts things in a nutshell...
First off... the semantics. Pro-Choice or Anti-abortion. The terms were changed to Pro-Life. Well, I'm Pro-Life because I believe in life. Regarding abortion... I'm anti-abortion as a the first option to a woman facing an unwanted pregnancy. I am Pro-Choice because I think it is not my position to make the choice to a woman facing an unwanted pregnancy. The only time my opinion would be warranted, would be if I were the father... and even then, the choice would ultimately be hers.
So... what the fuck am I? I am Pro-Choice because I feel it isn't my place to say... or yours or the government's or the church's to make that call. I am Anti-abortion because I would HOPE that she choose an alternative to abortion (which is a legal, valid medical procedure) as her option and NOT choose abortion. And I am Pro-Life... in that I am pro-all-life. I am against the Death Penalty and see war only as the last option.
...
Next point regards some people in the Anti-Abortion side of the issue. Because some that I have are not 'Pro-Life'. If you support the Death Penalty and wars of choosing, not of necessity, such as the War in Iraq, then you are not 'Pro-Life', you are 'anti-abortion' because you oppose abortion. Some of them also vehemently oppose things such as welfare and food stamps... that go to provide life for those babies and kids that are the living choice of an unwanted preganacy. So, they support the rights of the unborn.. but, once they are born... they are forgotten.
...
And i have suggestion that might to end this thing, once and for all. The Anti-Abortion folks need to focus their support, their voices, their money... and their fanatism... to education. Educate people that there are consequences to sex... and there are many options available to them to PREVENT the unwanted pregnancies in the first place. Teen-agers fuck... that's what teen-agers do... and have been doing ever since we first mutated to the 23 chromosomed apes. End the unwanted pregnancies and you end the abortions. You solve your own problem.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
There are a couple of things I see about the abortion issue that kinda puts things in a nutshell...
First off... the semantics. Pro-Choice or Anti-abortion. The terms were changed to Pro-Life. Well, I'm Pro-Life because I believe in life. Regarding abortion... I'm anti-abortion as a the first option to a woman facing an unwanted pregnancy. I am Pro-Choice because I think it is not my position to make the choice to a woman facing an unwanted pregnancy. The only time my opinion would be warranted, would be if I were the father... and even then, the choice would ultimately be hers.
So... what the fuck am I? I am Pro-Choice because I feel it isn't my place to say... or yours or the government's or the church's to make that call. I am Anti-abortion because I would HOPE that she choose an alternative to abortion (which is a legal, valid medical procedure) as her option and NOT choose abortion. And I am Pro-Life... in that I am pro-all-life. I am against the Death Penalty and see war only as the last option.
...
Next point regards some people in the Anti-Abortion side of the issue. Because some that I have are not 'Pro-Life'. If you support the Death Penalty and wars of choosing, not of necessity, such as the War in Iraq, then you are not 'Pro-Life', you are 'anti-abortion' because you oppose abortion. Some of them also vehemently oppose things such as welfare and food stamps... that go to provide life for those babies and kids that are the living choice of an unwanted preganacy. So, they support the rights of the unborn.. but, once they are born... they are forgotten.
...
And i have suggestion that might to end this thing, once and for all. The Anti-Abortion folks need to focus their support, their voices, their money... and their fanatism... to education. Educate people that there are consequences to sex... and there are many options available to them to PREVENT the unwanted pregnancies in the first place. Teen-agers fuck... that's what teen-agers do... and have been doing ever since we first mutated to the 23 chromosomed apes. End the unwanted pregnancies and you end the abortions. You solve your own problem.
Mr. Burns would say, "Exxxxcellant." Could not have said it better myself....you're not reading my mind again are you? :twisted:
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
There are a couple of things I see about the abortion issue that kinda puts things in a nutshell...
First off... the semantics. Pro-Choice or Anti-abortion. The terms were changed to Pro-Life. Well, I'm Pro-Life because I believe in life. Regarding abortion... I'm anti-abortion as a the first option to a woman facing an unwanted pregnancy. I am Pro-Choice because I think it is not my position to make the choice to a woman facing an unwanted pregnancy. The only time my opinion would be warranted, would be if I were the father... and even then, the choice would ultimately be hers.
So... what the fuck am I? I am Pro-Choice because I feel it isn't my place to say... or yours or the government's or the church's to make that call. I am Anti-abortion because I would HOPE that she choose an alternative to abortion (which is a legal, valid medical procedure) as her option and NOT choose abortion. And I am Pro-Life... in that I am pro-all-life. I am against the Death Penalty and see war only as the last option.
...
Next point regards some people in the Anti-Abortion side of the issue. Because some that I have are not 'Pro-Life'. If you support the Death Penalty and wars of choosing, not of necessity, such as the War in Iraq, then you are not 'Pro-Life', you are 'anti-abortion' because you oppose abortion. Some of them also vehemently oppose things such as welfare and food stamps... that go to provide life for those babies and kids that are the living choice of an unwanted preganacy. So, they support the rights of the unborn.. but, once they are born... they are forgotten.
...
And i have suggestion that might to end this thing, once and for all. The Anti-Abortion folks need to focus their support, their voices, their money... and their fanatism... to education. Educate people that there are consequences to sex... and there are many options available to them to PREVENT the unwanted pregnancies in the first place. Teen-agers fuck... that's what teen-agers do... and have been doing ever since we first mutated to the 23 chromosomed apes. End the unwanted pregnancies and you end the abortions. You solve your own problem.
Mr. Burns would say, "Exxxxcellant." Could not have said it better myself....you're not reading my mind again are you? :twisted:
it sounds all so simple...b/c it really is. sadly, too many on the 'pro-life' side of the issue are NOT in support of education, nor access to birth control....and far too many make it all or none.....abstinence only and that simply does NOT work as an educational or BC method. (and this is not say all pro-lifers are this way, not at all....)
it sounds all so simple...b/c it really is. sadly, too many on the 'pro-life' side of the issue are NOT in support of education, nor access to birth control....and far too many make it all or none.....abstinence only and that simply does NOT work as an educational or BC method. (and this is not say all pro-lifers are this way, not at all....)
I can see where people are against "education." Education = spending money. Seriously, how much money should really be spent on explaining to people that having sex makes babies? Anyone who is of age to procreate knows this. This, to me is just another area where everyone just needs to collectively pull their heads out of their asses and realize this one basic fact of life...
NOW, I do think that education about STDs is necessary-- and if parents can't whack their kid upside the head once and say, "don't get pregnant-- use a condom and pull out! (or for the ladies, don't let him go in bare, and don't let him bust it in ya" then their should be time dedicated to this topic as part of the education for STDs.
But seriously, without MEN pulling their heads out (multiple meanings here) we're never going to get anywhere.
I can see where people are against "education." Education = spending money.
To be honest, I haven't heard this argument against comprehensive sex ed before. Well, I know money is certainly a factor, but I haven't heard people say they are AGAINST comprehensive sex ed because of the money - only that they wish they had the money to teach it. The money is already being spent; the problem is that - on moral grounds and because of some silly past idea about reducing welfare - much of the funding for sex ed PROHIBITS the teaching of contraception. (I'm not sure I'm making any sense. I'm tired.)
Seriously, how much money should really be spent on explaining to people that having sex makes babies? Anyone who is of age to procreate knows this. This, to me is just another area where everyone just needs to collectively pull their heads out of their asses and realize this one basic fact of life...
How exactly does "anyone who is of age to procreate know this"? I've known more than a couple of pregnant girls who didn't even know what their vagina was. And I'll never forget when I said to a pregnant 12-year-old, "We need to know how many different guys you've had sex with," and she replied, "It was either 3 or 5, but I'm not sure if 2 of them went in." :(
I can see where people are against "education." Education = spending money.
To be honest, I haven't heard this argument against comprehensive sex ed before. Well, I know money is certainly a factor, but I haven't heard people say they are AGAINST comprehensive sex ed because of the money - only that they wish they had the money to teach it. The money is already being spent; the problem is that - on moral grounds and because of some silly past idea about reducing welfare - much of the funding for sex ed PROHIBITS the teaching of contraception. (I'm not sure I'm making any sense. I'm tired.)
Seriously, how much money should really be spent on explaining to people that having sex makes babies? Anyone who is of age to procreate knows this. This, to me is just another area where everyone just needs to collectively pull their heads out of their asses and realize this one basic fact of life...
How exactly does "anyone who is of age to procreate know this"? I've known more than a couple of pregnant girls who didn't even know what their vagina was. And I'll never forget when I said to a pregnant 12-year-old, "We need to know how many different guys you've had sex with," and she replied, "It was either 3 or 5, but I'm not sure if 2 of them went in." :(
The first 10 or 11 years of one's life is enough time to figure out what a vagina is. I didn't even have one (still don't), and I knew what a vagina was. Puberty is kind of a big hint that something is different is happening with your body. It's only natural to ask questions about what's happening to you, if you can't quite figure it out yourself. If people are getting pregnant without even knowing what their vagina is (however that happens?), the problem is worse than any of us think.
You're all over this topic-- I must say you've really dedicated yourself to it. Do you work in a related field to women's health?
I can see where people are against "education." Education = spending money.
To be honest, I haven't heard this argument against comprehensive sex ed before. Well, I know money is certainly a factor, but I haven't heard people say they are AGAINST comprehensive sex ed because of the money - only that they wish they had the money to teach it. The money is already being spent; the problem is that - on moral grounds and because of some silly past idea about reducing welfare - much of the funding for sex ed PROHIBITS the teaching of contraception. (I'm not sure I'm making any sense. I'm tired.)
Seriously, how much money should really be spent on explaining to people that having sex makes babies? Anyone who is of age to procreate knows this. This, to me is just another area where everyone just needs to collectively pull their heads out of their asses and realize this one basic fact of life...
How exactly does "anyone who is of age to procreate know this"? I've known more than a couple of pregnant girls who didn't even know what their vagina was. And I'll never forget when I said to a pregnant 12-year-old, "We need to know how many different guys you've had sex with," and she replied, "It was either 3 or 5, but I'm not sure if 2 of them went in." :(
I'm pretty sure that the pregnant 12 year old who doesn't know what her vagina is is an extremely small %. I'm sure we can find all kinds of one of examples to share.
People who don't think that the vast majority of kids that have sex actually understand that it could lead to pregnancy are just kidding themselves. This does not mean that education isn't needed though. They need to be educated on birth control so they feel comfortable about using it and using it properly. They also need to have the severity of the consequences shown to them often...very often. Otherwise the "it won't happen to me" mentality creeps in. They need to have that feedback often, because the more they have sex and don't end up with a negative outcome (pregnancy...std...etc) the more it seems like "it won't happen to me".
I can see where people are against "education." Education = spending money.
To be honest, I haven't heard this argument against comprehensive sex ed before. Well, I know money is certainly a factor, but I haven't heard people say they are AGAINST comprehensive sex ed because of the money - only that they wish they had the money to teach it. The money is already being spent; the problem is that - on moral grounds and because of some silly past idea about reducing welfare - much of the funding for sex ed PROHIBITS the teaching of contraception. (I'm not sure I'm making any sense. I'm tired.)
Seriously, how much money should really be spent on explaining to people that having sex makes babies? Anyone who is of age to procreate knows this. This, to me is just another area where everyone just needs to collectively pull their heads out of their asses and realize this one basic fact of life...
How exactly does "anyone who is of age to procreate know this"? I've known more than a couple of pregnant girls who didn't even know what their vagina was. And I'll never forget when I said to a pregnant 12-year-old, "We need to know how many different guys you've had sex with," and she replied, "It was either 3 or 5, but I'm not sure if 2 of them went in." :(
I'm pretty sure that the pregnant 12 year old who doesn't know what her vagina is is an extremely small %. I'm sure we can find all kinds of one of examples to share.
People who don't think that the vast majority of kids that have sex actually understand that it could lead to pregnancy are just kidding themselves. This does not mean that education isn't needed though. They need to be educated on birth control so they feel comfortable about using it and using it properly. They also need to have the severity of the consequences shown to them often...very often. Otherwise the "it won't happen to me" mentality creeps in. They need to have that feedback often, because the more they have sex and don't end up with a negative outcome (pregnancy...std...etc) the more it seems like "it won't happen to me".
I think it's a job best left primarily to parents. Anyone parent who is relying 100% on the state to teach their kids the birds and the bees and how to best avoid pregnancy is a huge part of the problem.
I think it's a job best left primarily to parents. Anyone parent who is relying 100% on the state to teach their kids the birds and the bees and how to best avoid pregnancy is a huge part of the problem.
The problems is that many parents don't take command of this situation...I know that mine didn't....and they should have known better considering that Mom was with child(me) when they got married.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
The first 10 or 11 years of one's life is enough time to figure out what a vagina is. I didn't even have one (still don't), and I knew what a vagina was. Puberty is kind of a big hint that something is different is happening with your body. It's only natural to ask questions about what's happening to you, if you can't quite figure it out yourself. If people are getting pregnant without even knowing what their vagina is (however that happens?), the problem is worse than any of us think.
You're all over this topic-- I must say you've really dedicated yourself to it. Do you work in a related field to women's health?
Yes, this is the subject about which I'm most passionate. Sorry if that makes me a pain in the ass on a message board. To answer your question, I have a bachelor's in women studies, run a maternal, child, & reproductive health program at a medical school/university hospital (we train doctors, see patients, and do research), and am working on a master's in public health.
Comments
The "knee jerk" reaction that I was referring to was more about labeling this guy a "terrorist."
Of course it happened within the larger context of the anti-abortion movement. How couldn't it? Unless I'm misinterpreting what you wrote, this guy is a one-man subset of the anti-abortion movement that happens to be an insane hypocrite-- he definitely exists within the larger context. Five deaths since '93 is awful-- but you're talking about people who are beyond angry over what they believe to be millions of slain, innocent people, and fully believe they are justified in taking the lives of the doctors performing this service. If this wasn't an isolated incident, you can bet that there would be a lot more of this going on, while there clearly isn't.
I can just as easily say that within the larger context of the pro-choice movement that there are people who use abortion as a form of birth control-- as in, "OOPS! I'm pregnant again! Honey get the keys, we're going to the clinic!" --which is equally dispicable as what this guy has done. Although this is probably pretty rare, I know for a fact that it's happened more than 5 times since '93. I don't let this "reason" speak for the other more sensible people who have arguable reasons for abortion, to save the mother's life, for one.
It's volatile out there right now. I'm not going to say that you won't see a copycat crime here, but for the most part, people who oppose abortion oppose it because they have respect for human life-- even for those who murder. The death penalty is the exception for a lot of these people, and the arguments in favor of the death penalty are because judgement has been officially passed by the state, and it's one less person that has potential to harm society again. I personally do not subscribe to that belief. People who are truly guilty of heinous crimes can spend the rest of their lives in prison.
Bottomline, there's nutcases with causes everywhere, in every group. As far as the anti-abortion movement goes, they could be a lot "nuttier" considering the absolute defenselessness of the group they are protecting. The guy who killed Tiller is one in a million.
Oh please...paint everyone that is anti-abortion with the same brush. What an ass.
What is the difference between the idiot fundamentalists that use violence and fear to stop abortions and this idiot trying to use fear tactics and a call of action against all anti-abortion people?
wow. That is sick.
Source, please?
Right on V.G.
I misunderstood you then.
I'm pretty sure he didn't say all anti-choice folks are terrorists. "Terrorists... are right here killing abortion doctors." "This... assassination... was terrorism." Seems to only be using that word to describe those who actually commit murder in the name of what he calls a fascist movement.
It's all good. What I said wasn't very specific, that's for sure. And I wouldn't doubt that this guy didn't plot doing this to Tiller for quite some time, so I agree with you that his actions weren't impulsive or knee jerk.
Your source says Dr. Tiller has performed about 60,00 TOTAL abortions. You were asked how many LATE-TERM abortion he has performed. No need to misrepresent the statistics.
whoops.. sorry didnt mean to.
"The American anti-abortion movement is the face of fascism in America."
Seems to me he is hurting because he lost a friend...or he is an ass.
"Anti-choice" nice..."baby killer" I'm f'in sick of the Bullshit, backhanded labels.
I thought was a nice touch too. :roll: and its true..you are anti choice and tiller the killer is nothing more then a baby killer.
I didn't mean "anti-choice" as an insult; I'm just trying to be accurate about who I'm referring to. I'm not referring to all people who are pro-life - only the anti-choice ones. After all the conversations you and I have had about these labels, I'd think you would know that by now. I'm specifically trying to avoid "painting everyone who is anti-abortion with the same brush." I guess we pro-choice folks just can't win with you. :?
Sorry, hit a nerve. Anti-abortion works fine...I love people abe to make their own choices when it doesn't effect the lives of others.
"These people aren't pro-life, their killing doctors. What kind of pro-life is that? They'll do anything they can to save a fetus but if it grows up to be an (abortion) doctor they just might have to kill it. Their not pro-life, their anti-woman."
9/29/04 Boston, 6/28/08 Mansfield, 8/23/09 Chicago, 5/15/10 Hartford
5/17/10 Boston, 10/15/13 Worcester, 10/16/13 Worcester, 10/25/13 Hartford
8/5/16 Fenway, 8/7/16 Fenway
EV Solo: 6/16/11 Boston, 6/18/11 Hartford,
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31154101/
Suspect in doctor's death warns of violence
Man is charged in the shooting death of abortion provider Dr. George Tiller
WICHITA, Kansas - The man charged with murdering a high-profile abortion doctor claimed from his jail cell Sunday that similar violence was planned around the nation for as long as the procedure remained legal, a threat that comes days after a federal investigation launched into his possible accomplices.
A Justice Department spokesman said the threat was being taken seriously and additional protection had been ordered for abortion clinics last week. But a leader of the anti-abortion movement derided the accused shooter as "a fruit and a lunatic."
Scott Roeder called The Associated Press from the Sedgwick County jail, where he's being held on charges of first-degree murder and aggravated assault in the shooting of Dr. George Tiller one week ago.
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"I know there are many other similar events planned around the country as long as abortion remains legal," Roeder said. He would not elaborate.
Tiller shot at church
Tiller's clinic in Wichita was among only a few in the U.S. that perform third-trimester abortions. He was shot while serving as an usher at the Lutheran church he attended.
Asked if he shot Tiller, Roeder replied that he could not comment about that and said he needed to clear everything with his lawyer.
Justice Department spokesman Matthew Miller said in a written statement Sunday that "we take this matter seriously, which is why the Attorney General ordered increased protection of appropriate people and facilities last week."
Tiller's clinic had been a target of regular demonstrations by abortion opponents. Most were peaceful, but his clinic was bombed in 1986 and he was shot in both arms in 1993. In 1991, a 45-day "Summer of Mercy" campaign organized by Operation Rescue drew thousands of abortion opponents to Wichita, and there were more than 2,700 arrests.
Jim Cross, a spokesman for the U.S. attorney's office, did not immediately comment Sunday on Roeder's statement.
The Justice Department opened an investigation Friday to see if the gunman who killed Tiller had accomplices. The DOJ said its Civil Rights Division and the U.S. attorney's office in Kansas will investigate whether the killing violated a 1994 law creating criminal penalties for violent or damaging conduct toward abortion providers and their patients.
'Hare-brained phone call'
An attorney for the Tiller family, Dan Monnat, said he wasn't sure they should be dignifying Roeder's actions and threats with a response "every time he makes a hare-brained phone call."
"I am hopeful that state and federal authorities, including Homeland Security, will give Mr. Roeder and his information a deserving response," Monnat said, declining to elaborate.
Nancy Keenan president of NARAL-Pro-Choice America, said Roeder's comments "continue to escalate that kind of activity, that kind of violence. Quite honestly, I think it's imperative for anti-choice groups to tone down that rhetoric and keep the more extreme elements in their movement form copying Scott Roeder."
A funeral was held Saturday for Tiller. Most anti-abortion groups avoided the service, having denounced Tiller's shooting.
Troy Newman, president of the anti-abortion group Operation Rescue, read about Roeder's statement and e-mailed The Associated Press, saying: "This guy is a fruit and a lunatic."
Roeder, a 51-year-old abortion opponent, was arrested a few hours after the shooting just outside Kansas City.
He told the AP he refused to talk to investigators when he was arrested, and has made no statements to police since then.
"I just told them I needed to talk to my lawyer," Roeder said.
Needs his sleep apnea machine
In two separate calls to AP on Sunday morning, Roeder was far more talkative about his treatment at the Sedgwick County jail, complaining about "deplorable conditions in solitary" where he was kept during his first three days there.
Sedgwick County Sheriff Robert Hinshaw said that Roeder is receiving appropriate medical treatment.
"It is after all a jail, but a modern state-of-the-art facility with professional staff," Hinshaw said. "While Mr. Roeder may not care for being in the Sedgwick County jail, all of our conditions and policies are designed to provide safety and security for all inmates, staff and public at large."
Roeder said it was freezing in his cell. "I started having a bad cough. I thought I was going to have pneumonia," he said.
He said he called AP because he wanted to emphasize the conditions in the jail so that in the future suspects would not have to endure the same conditions.
Roeder also said he wanted the public to know he has been denied phone privileges for the past two days, and needed his sleep apnea machine.
- J.F.K
"If you're not scared, I'm not doing my job."
- Stephen Colbert
once again, 1/2 truths. Always have to add that last statement of pure BS that then makes everything else they say mean so much less.
First off... the semantics. Pro-Choice or Anti-abortion. The terms were changed to Pro-Life. Well, I'm Pro-Life because I believe in life. Regarding abortion... I'm anti-abortion as a the first option to a woman facing an unwanted pregnancy. I am Pro-Choice because I think it is not my position to make the choice to a woman facing an unwanted pregnancy. The only time my opinion would be warranted, would be if I were the father... and even then, the choice would ultimately be hers.
So... what the fuck am I? I am Pro-Choice because I feel it isn't my place to say... or yours or the government's or the church's to make that call. I am Anti-abortion because I would HOPE that she choose an alternative to abortion (which is a legal, valid medical procedure) as her option and NOT choose abortion. And I am Pro-Life... in that I am pro-all-life. I am against the Death Penalty and see war only as the last option.
...
Next point regards some people in the Anti-Abortion side of the issue. Because some that I have are not 'Pro-Life'. If you support the Death Penalty and wars of choosing, not of necessity, such as the War in Iraq, then you are not 'Pro-Life', you are 'anti-abortion' because you oppose abortion. Some of them also vehemently oppose things such as welfare and food stamps... that go to provide life for those babies and kids that are the living choice of an unwanted preganacy. So, they support the rights of the unborn.. but, once they are born... they are forgotten.
...
And i have suggestion that might to end this thing, once and for all. The Anti-Abortion folks need to focus their support, their voices, their money... and their fanatism... to education. Educate people that there are consequences to sex... and there are many options available to them to PREVENT the unwanted pregnancies in the first place. Teen-agers fuck... that's what teen-agers do... and have been doing ever since we first mutated to the 23 chromosomed apes. End the unwanted pregnancies and you end the abortions. You solve your own problem.
Hail, Hail!!!
it sounds all so simple...b/c it really is. sadly, too many on the 'pro-life' side of the issue are NOT in support of education, nor access to birth control....and far too many make it all or none.....abstinence only and that simply does NOT work as an educational or BC method. (and this is not say all pro-lifers are this way, not at all....)
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
I can see where people are against "education." Education = spending money. Seriously, how much money should really be spent on explaining to people that having sex makes babies? Anyone who is of age to procreate knows this. This, to me is just another area where everyone just needs to collectively pull their heads out of their asses and realize this one basic fact of life...
NOW, I do think that education about STDs is necessary-- and if parents can't whack their kid upside the head once and say, "don't get pregnant-- use a condom and pull out! (or for the ladies, don't let him go in bare, and don't let him bust it in ya" then their should be time dedicated to this topic as part of the education for STDs.
But seriously, without MEN pulling their heads out (multiple meanings here) we're never going to get anywhere.
To be honest, I haven't heard this argument against comprehensive sex ed before. Well, I know money is certainly a factor, but I haven't heard people say they are AGAINST comprehensive sex ed because of the money - only that they wish they had the money to teach it. The money is already being spent; the problem is that - on moral grounds and because of some silly past idea about reducing welfare - much of the funding for sex ed PROHIBITS the teaching of contraception. (I'm not sure I'm making any sense. I'm tired.)
How exactly does "anyone who is of age to procreate know this"? I've known more than a couple of pregnant girls who didn't even know what their vagina was. And I'll never forget when I said to a pregnant 12-year-old, "We need to know how many different guys you've had sex with," and she replied, "It was either 3 or 5, but I'm not sure if 2 of them went in." :(
The first 10 or 11 years of one's life is enough time to figure out what a vagina is. I didn't even have one (still don't), and I knew what a vagina was. Puberty is kind of a big hint that something is different is happening with your body. It's only natural to ask questions about what's happening to you, if you can't quite figure it out yourself. If people are getting pregnant without even knowing what their vagina is (however that happens?), the problem is worse than any of us think.
You're all over this topic-- I must say you've really dedicated yourself to it. Do you work in a related field to women's health?
I'm pretty sure that the pregnant 12 year old who doesn't know what her vagina is is an extremely small %. I'm sure we can find all kinds of one of examples to share.
People who don't think that the vast majority of kids that have sex actually understand that it could lead to pregnancy are just kidding themselves. This does not mean that education isn't needed though. They need to be educated on birth control so they feel comfortable about using it and using it properly. They also need to have the severity of the consequences shown to them often...very often. Otherwise the "it won't happen to me" mentality creeps in. They need to have that feedback often, because the more they have sex and don't end up with a negative outcome (pregnancy...std...etc) the more it seems like "it won't happen to me".
I think it's a job best left primarily to parents. Anyone parent who is relying 100% on the state to teach their kids the birds and the bees and how to best avoid pregnancy is a huge part of the problem.
Yes, this is the subject about which I'm most passionate. Sorry if that makes me a pain in the ass on a message board. To answer your question, I have a bachelor's in women studies, run a maternal, child, & reproductive health program at a medical school/university hospital (we train doctors, see patients, and do research), and am working on a master's in public health.