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Family of Ontario woman ruled brain dead appeals to keep her on life support

Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
in A Moving Train
Family of Ontario woman ruled brain dead appeals to keep her on life support

https://globalnews.ca/news/4362783/ontario-woman-brain-dead-life-support-appeal/?utm_medium=Facebook&utm_source=GlobalToronto

Interesting...

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    PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 49,542
    I'm not sure I really understand the family's perspective. They say their daughter’s Christian faith defines death as the cessation of the heartbeat..... Okay, but surely that doesn't include a heartbeat being maintained with machines? It would seem like that belief only stands valid if they do indeed remove her from life support... If her heart continues to beat after that, then sure, keep in a feeding tube to keep her from starving to death while "god" decides whether he body can keep her alive. Full life support and these religious arguments surrounding death just don't seem to jive IMHO.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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    Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    Some people have trouble letting go.  She is technically not alive.  If this about their christian faith ... would you not remove her from life support and let it be gods will whether she lives or not?
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    BentleyspopBentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, Colorado Posts: 10,547
    Very selfish act
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    PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 49,542
    edited July 2018
    Bentleyspop said:
    Very selfish act
    Hmmm, well I know what you mean, but I'm not sure I can necessarily agree. Grief and hope and religious belief aren't as simple as that. I feel genuine empathy for the family doing this even though I completely disagree with what they're trying to do and with their religious reasoning or logic. I don't believe their actions are rooted in selfishness at all. I think they truly believe this is what the dead woman would want as well, which I think actually makes it specifically unselfish, even if they're wrong. 
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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    benjsbenjs Toronto, ON Posts: 8,938
    PJ_Soul said:
    Bentleyspop said:
    Very selfish act
    Hmmm, well I know what you mean, but I'm sure I can necessarily agree. Grief and hope and religious belief aren't as simple as that. I feel genuine empathy for the family doing this even though I complete disagree with what they're trying to do and with their religious reasoning or logic. I don't believe their actions are rooted in selfishness at all. I think they truly believe this is what the dead woman would want as well, which I think actually makes it specifically unselfish, even if they're wrong. 
    Well put! Misguided, but righteous.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
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    Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    PJ_Soul said:
    Bentleyspop said:
    Very selfish act
    Hmmm, well I know what you mean, but I'm not sure I can necessarily agree. Grief and hope and religious belief aren't as simple as that. I feel genuine empathy for the family doing this even though I completely disagree with what they're trying to do and with their religious reasoning or logic. I don't believe their actions are rooted in selfishness at all. I think they truly believe this is what the dead woman would want as well, which I think actually makes it specifically unselfish, even if they're wrong. 
    Very well said ...

    It's tough to let go of a loved one ...
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    brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,721
    I would not want to be in a position to make that kind of decision.  Neither does C. She and I both have legal "pull the plug" end of life agreements.  I think it's wise to make that decision while still in good health.
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













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    PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 49,542
    edited August 2018
    brianlux said:
    I would not want to be in a position to make that kind of decision.  Neither does C. She and I both have legal "pull the plug" end of life agreements.  I think it's wise to make that decision while still in good health.
    Yes. All families should sit down and, even if you don't bother with actual end of life agreements through a lawyer or notary or whatever, discuss what every individual in the family would want, assign a "secretary" (whoever types fastest in the family, lol) to write it all down in detail. Have the family members sign it. That alone will at least avoid confusion or uncertainty within the family if something like this actually comes up.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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    OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MN Posts: 4,824
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    I would not want to be in a position to make that kind of decision.  Neither does C. She and I both have legal "pull the plug" end of life agreements.  I think it's wise to make that decision while still in good health.
    Yes. All families should sit down and, even if you don't bother with actual end of life agreements through a lawyer or notary or whatever, discuss what every individual in the family would want, assign a "secretary" (whoever types fastest in the family, lol) to write it all down in detail. Have the family members sign it. That alone will at least avoid confusion or uncertainty within the family if something like this actually comes up.
    I agree. People don't like to think about this kind of stuff, but it can save a lot of internal family dissension. 
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    Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    I've changed my mind ... this family is incredibly selfish ... they are tying up a much needed hospital bed that someone waiting in the ER might need for a brain dead patient ... 
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    stuckinlinestuckinline Posts: 3,359
    brianlux said:
    I would not want to be in a position to make that kind of decision.  Neither does C. She and I both have legal "pull the plug" end of life agreements.  I think it's wise to make that decision while still in good health.
    Brian, you are very wise.
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    benjsbenjs Toronto, ON Posts: 8,938
    Meltdown99 said:
    I've changed my mind ... this family is incredibly selfish ... they are tying up a much needed hospital bed that someone waiting in the ER might need for a brain dead patient ... 
    I like to think I'd make the 'selfless' decision, but I'm not qualified in this frame of mind to predict what I would do in that one. You're not running on logic at that point.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
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    oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,826
    OnWis97 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    I would not want to be in a position to make that kind of decision.  Neither does C. She and I both have legal "pull the plug" end of life agreements.  I think it's wise to make that decision while still in good health.
    Yes. All families should sit down and, even if you don't bother with actual end of life agreements through a lawyer or notary or whatever, discuss what every individual in the family would want, assign a "secretary" (whoever types fastest in the family, lol) to write it all down in detail. Have the family members sign it. That alone will at least avoid confusion or uncertainty within the family if something like this actually comes up.
    I agree. People don't like to think about this kind of stuff, but it can save a lot of internal family dissension. 
    It can, but emotion can still intervene. This happened within the family of some longtime friends. The mother had severe dementia and had previously spoken to the family about not wanting life-prolonging measures. When she inevitably got ill, with pneumonia, the husband and two sons acquiesced to her wishes, with much sadness of course, and requested that she not get antibiotics. One son was appalled and insisted she be treated. It really wrenched their family for a while. Grief is unpredictable. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
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    PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 49,542
    edited August 2018
    oftenreading said:
    OnWis97 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    I would not want to be in a position to make that kind of decision.  Neither does C. She and I both have legal "pull the plug" end of life agreements.  I think it's wise to make that decision while still in good health.
    Yes. All families should sit down and, even if you don't bother with actual end of life agreements through a lawyer or notary or whatever, discuss what every individual in the family would want, assign a "secretary" (whoever types fastest in the family, lol) to write it all down in detail. Have the family members sign it. That alone will at least avoid confusion or uncertainty within the family if something like this actually comes up.
    I agree. People don't like to think about this kind of stuff, but it can save a lot of internal family dissension. 
    It can, but emotion can still intervene. This happened within the family of some longtime friends. The mother had severe dementia and had previously spoken to the family about not wanting life-prolonging measures. When she inevitably got ill, with pneumonia, the husband and two sons acquiesced to her wishes, with much sadness of course, and requested that she not get antibiotics. One son was appalled and insisted she be treated. It really wrenched their family for a while. Grief is unpredictable. 
    When anyone is not 100% on the same page with these things, it's definitely best to get some serious legal documentation going to protect sick members from people like that son. I'm lucky to have a family who is completely on the same page when it comes to this stuff, but that certainly isn't the case with a lot of people.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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    Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    benjs said:
    Meltdown99 said:
    I've changed my mind ... this family is incredibly selfish ... they are tying up a much needed hospital bed that someone waiting in the ER might need for a brain dead patient ... 
    I like to think I'd make the 'selfless' decision, but I'm not qualified in this frame of mind to predict what I would do in that one. You're not running on logic at that point.
    Actually I am.  Do people who are brain dead recover?  She's technically dead.  Now it time for her family to quit being so selfish and let her RIP and free up a hospital bed that might be needed to save a life or at least be used by someone the doctors can help.
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