Family of Ontario woman ruled brain dead appeals to keep her on life support

Meltdown99

Family of Ontario woman ruled brain dead appeals to keep her on life support

https://globalnews.ca/news/4362783/ontario-woman-brain-dead-life-support-appeal/?utm_medium=Facebook&utm_source=GlobalToronto

Interesting...

PJ_Soul

I'm not sure I really understand the family's perspective. They say their daughter’s Christian faith defines death as the cessation of the heartbeat..... Okay, but surely that doesn't include a heartbeat being maintained with machines? It would seem like that belief only stands valid if they do indeed remove her from life support... If her heart continues to beat after that, then sure, keep in a feeding tube to keep her from starving to death while "god" decides whether he body can keep her alive. Full life support and these religious arguments surrounding death just don't seem to jive IMHO.

Meltdown99

Some people have trouble letting go.  She is technically not alive.  If this about their christian faith ... would you not remove her from life support and let it be gods will whether she lives or not?

Bentleyspop

Very selfish act

PJ_Soul

Bentleyspop said:

Very selfish act

Hmmm, well I know what you mean, but I'm not sure I can necessarily agree. Grief and hope and religious belief aren't as simple as that. I feel genuine empathy for the family doing this even though I completely disagree with what they're trying to do and with their religious reasoning or logic. I don't believe their actions are rooted in selfishness at all. I think they truly believe this is what the dead woman would want as well, which I think actually makes it specifically unselfish, even if they're wrong. 

benjs

PJ_Soul said:

Bentleyspop said:

Very selfish act

Hmmm, well I know what you mean, but I'm sure I can necessarily agree. Grief and hope and religious belief aren't as simple as that. I feel genuine empathy for the family doing this even though I complete disagree with what they're trying to do and with their religious reasoning or logic. I don't believe their actions are rooted in selfishness at all. I think they truly believe this is what the dead woman would want as well, which I think actually makes it specifically unselfish, even if they're wrong. 

Well put! Misguided, but righteous.

Meltdown99

PJ_Soul said:

Bentleyspop said:

Very selfish act

Hmmm, well I know what you mean, but I'm not sure I can necessarily agree. Grief and hope and religious belief aren't as simple as that. I feel genuine empathy for the family doing this even though I completely disagree with what they're trying to do and with their religious reasoning or logic. I don't believe their actions are rooted in selfishness at all. I think they truly believe this is what the dead woman would want as well, which I think actually makes it specifically unselfish, even if they're wrong. 

Very well said ...

It's tough to let go of a loved one ...

brianlux

I would not want to be in a position to make that kind of decision.  Neither does C. She and I both have legal "pull the plug" end of life agreements.  I think it's wise to make that decision while still in good health.

PJ_Soul

brianlux said:

I would not want to be in a position to make that kind of decision.  Neither does C. She and I both have legal "pull the plug" end of life agreements.  I think it's wise to make that decision while still in good health.

Yes. All families should sit down and, even if you don't bother with actual end of life agreements through a lawyer or notary or whatever, discuss what every individual in the family would want, assign a "secretary" (whoever types fastest in the family, lol) to write it all down in detail. Have the family members sign it. That alone will at least avoid confusion or uncertainty within the family if something like this actually comes up.

OnWis97

PJ_Soul said:

brianlux said:

I would not want to be in a position to make that kind of decision.  Neither does C. She and I both have legal "pull the plug" end of life agreements.  I think it's wise to make that decision while still in good health.

Yes. All families should sit down and, even if you don't bother with actual end of life agreements through a lawyer or notary or whatever, discuss what every individual in the family would want, assign a "secretary" (whoever types fastest in the family, lol) to write it all down in detail. Have the family members sign it. That alone will at least avoid confusion or uncertainty within the family if something like this actually comes up.

I agree. People don't like to think about this kind of stuff, but it can save a lot of internal family dissension. 

Meltdown99

I've changed my mind ... this family is incredibly selfish ... they are tying up a much needed hospital bed that someone waiting in the ER might need for a brain dead patient ... 

stuckinline

brianlux said:

I would not want to be in a position to make that kind of decision.  Neither does C. She and I both have legal "pull the plug" end of life agreements.  I think it's wise to make that decision while still in good health.

Brian, you are very wise.

benjs

Meltdown99 said:

I've changed my mind ... this family is incredibly selfish ... they are tying up a much needed hospital bed that someone waiting in the ER might need for a brain dead patient ... 

I like to think I'd make the 'selfless' decision, but I'm not qualified in this frame of mind to predict what I would do in that one. You're not running on logic at that point.

oftenreading

OnWis97 said:

PJ_Soul said:

brianlux said:

I would not want to be in a position to make that kind of decision.  Neither does C. She and I both have legal "pull the plug" end of life agreements.  I think it's wise to make that decision while still in good health.

Yes. All families should sit down and, even if you don't bother with actual end of life agreements through a lawyer or notary or whatever, discuss what every individual in the family would want, assign a "secretary" (whoever types fastest in the family, lol) to write it all down in detail. Have the family members sign it. That alone will at least avoid confusion or uncertainty within the family if something like this actually comes up.

I agree. People don't like to think about this kind of stuff, but it can save a lot of internal family dissension. 

It can, but emotion can still intervene. This happened within the family of some longtime friends. The mother had severe dementia and had previously spoken to the family about not wanting life-prolonging measures. When she inevitably got ill, with pneumonia, the husband and two sons acquiesced to her wishes, with much sadness of course, and requested that she not get antibiotics. One son was appalled and insisted she be treated. It really wrenched their family for a while. Grief is unpredictable. 

PJ_Soul

oftenreading said:

OnWis97 said:

PJ_Soul said:

brianlux said:

I would not want to be in a position to make that kind of decision.  Neither does C. She and I both have legal "pull the plug" end of life agreements.  I think it's wise to make that decision while still in good health.

Yes. All families should sit down and, even if you don't bother with actual end of life agreements through a lawyer or notary or whatever, discuss what every individual in the family would want, assign a "secretary" (whoever types fastest in the family, lol) to write it all down in detail. Have the family members sign it. That alone will at least avoid confusion or uncertainty within the family if something like this actually comes up.

I agree. People don't like to think about this kind of stuff, but it can save a lot of internal family dissension. 

It can, but emotion can still intervene. This happened within the family of some longtime friends. The mother had severe dementia and had previously spoken to the family about not wanting life-prolonging measures. When she inevitably got ill, with pneumonia, the husband and two sons acquiesced to her wishes, with much sadness of course, and requested that she not get antibiotics. One son was appalled and insisted she be treated. It really wrenched their family for a while. Grief is unpredictable. 

When anyone is not 100% on the same page with these things, it's definitely best to get some serious legal documentation going to protect sick members from people like that son. I'm lucky to have a family who is completely on the same page when it comes to this stuff, but that certainly isn't the case with a lot of people.

Meltdown99

benjs said:

Meltdown99 said:

I've changed my mind ... this family is incredibly selfish ... they are tying up a much needed hospital bed that someone waiting in the ER might need for a brain dead patient ... 

I like to think I'd make the 'selfless' decision, but I'm not qualified in this frame of mind to predict what I would do in that one. You're not running on logic at that point.

Actually I am.  Do people who are brain dead recover?  She's technically dead.  Now it time for her family to quit being so selfish and let her RIP and free up a hospital bed that might be needed to save a life or at least be used by someone the doctors can help.