60K Raised for Planned Parenthood.

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Comments

  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 939

    mace1229 said:

    benjs said:

    mace1229 said:

    rgambs said:

    mace1229 said:

    rgambs said:

    rgambs said:

    rgambs said:

    rgambs said:

    "Sure, as long as "you", ie someone else, is willing to sacrifice of themselves to create and sustain that baby"

    I fully intend to adopt. And I wish more people would be open to it to. Usually the response to not adopting is it is too expensive. That should be fixed.


    Edit - if it is inconclvenient to you from a monetary standpoint, it is cool to kill a baby?

    If it is inconvenient to you to understand embryology, should you have an opinion on the matter?
    What makes you think I dont understand it?
    You dismissed the technical aspects of fetal development and persist in using the term "baby" which is inaccurate and disingenuous.
    You are free to believe that a fetus should not be aborted, but when you use the improper terms, you align yourselves with a crowd that cherishes it's ignorance.
    I will always use the term baby instead of embryo or cell, not because I dont understand the science, but by doing so it aligns the psychological part of an abortion to realize what it is you are choosing to do by aborting. Labeling it as anything else causes a disconnect and normalizes the act
    An embryo is not a fetus and a fetus is not a baby.
    Is a baby an adult?
    Labels are functions of distinction, and they matter.

    When you choose to use terms you know to be incorrect for psychologic effect you are normalizing irrationality. It's hard to change people's minds from an admittedly biased viewpoint.

    Im not disagreeing with your first sentence. Again, as I have said, the fact of the matter is that a baby is developing. You are right, I should be more clear in my terminology so i will now say "developing into a baby" instead of just "baby." I believe everyone should be informed about the science and psychological effects that go along with abortion. I wasn't proposing that people should be brainwashed by any means.

    I respect your opinion on the matter, changing your mind is not my goal. But hopefully i will be able to positively change the mind of at least one female going through this dilemma in my lifetime through moral support or however possible.
    It's usually not my goal to change minds on this subject either, I just seek to bring honesty to the topic.
    First, it is completely normal to refer to an embryo or fetus as a "baby." Mothers do it in pretty much every pregnancy I've ever seen. I have never heard a single person ask "how is your embryo today?" to a pregnant mom, they always ask "how is the baby doing?"
    The only time anyone objects to this is when the topic is abortion because the goal is to minimize the life.
    That is truly what the pro-life/pro-choice debate is really about.
    Usually "women's rights" is the main argument for pro-choice. Hasn't been here and that is a first I think. But every other argument for pro-choice, (waiting for better circumstances, too cumbersome, don't want another kid, the cost, etc) is meaningless, just like every other argument for pro-life is as well (some people cant have kids and want to adopt, or whatever the case is). It always comes down to one thing, and one thing only. Is it life?

    I'm pro-life because I can't imagine something with a heartbeat and developing features as anything other than a life. And with advancing medicine the gender can even be determined in several weeks. I don't think science will ever be able to prove one way or another when life begins, we can just debate or beliefs on the matter. Its obvious that some form of life exists in the earliest stages of pregnancy, why would it not be the first stage of human life?
    The goal is to be correct. It matters.
    Maybe, but my point was it is unfair and inaccurate to discredit someone solely based on them referring to am embryo as a baby. You made the claim they were uninformed and don't understand the science behind it because they used that word in describing an embryo/fetus.
    After 2 kids I can't recall a single conversation when any doctor, nurse, ultrasound tech, or anyone who referred to it as anything other than "baby" during any stage of the pregnancy. That really seemed to be your whole argument, "If it is inconvenient to you to understand embryology, should you have an opinion on the matter?" and "You dismissed the technical aspects of fetal development and persist in using the term "baby" which is inaccurate and disingenuous." which I find to be inaccurate statements when even the medical field refers to it as a "baby."
    I'm not saying this proves my case, but rather It isn't a lack of understanding or disingenuous, it is common terminology used even by professionals. The only time it is ever an issue is during pro life/choice arguments when there is an emphasis that it is not a human life. Other than that, everyone seems okay with it. And someone shouldn't be dismissed for using that term.
    Doctors and nurses who refer to an embryo or fetus as a baby are appealing to emotion, attempting to induce an emotional connection between a parent and future child (you should stop smoking because it will affect the development of your embryo vs. you should stop smoking because it will affect the development of your child - which sounds more impactful). I'd be shocked if these doctors and nurses would dispute the fact that, technically, they are witnessing the development of an embryo, if asked.

    In addition, conversations with professionals involve context. It would feel cold and callused to tell a new set of hopeful parents for them to hear that their embryo is developing adequately, because a medical professional is being sought after not just for a professional opinion, but also emotional guidance and nurturing through a new experience. A medical consultation between a pregnant woman and her doctor is not a scientific inquiry. The discussion about abortion is absolutely scientific inquiry, which should focus on logic over appeal to emotion.
    I don't disagree. I still stand by my statement though that it is common usage and someone shouldn't be dismissed and considered uninformed because they refer to an embryo as a baby. People use common terms all the time that are not scientifically, or in other ways, accurate. When someone asks for a Kleenex, do you stop them and say "uhh, did you mean a tissue?" Or do you just give them a tissue?
    Using the term "baby" to describe any level of development is common usage for many people, and doesn't reflect their knowledge, or lack of, the developmental process.
    Except when they engage in a debate and resort to 'killing babies' as their argument. Then... their knowledge of the developmental process could be called to question.

    An abortion in timely fashion is not killing babies.
    I agree, I wouldn't accuse someone of being a baby killer. I think equally misleading is the argument of "its just tissue."
    Just tissue to most implies the lack of human features like a heartbeat, a gender, recognizable features. Both descriptions are meant to paint a picture that the person wants.
    There needs to be more to a debate than "you're killing babies" and "no, its just tissue." But I think the debate should focus around life, why you believe so, and nothing else really matters in this context.
  • Kev - Coat and KeysKev - Coat and Keys EarthPosts: 167
    Interesting conversation with good points on both sides.
    Kinda feel like abortion should be safe and legal for those who need it and be avoided by those who have moral issues with it.
    Down neon streets the streaker streaks.
    The speaker speaks,
    but the truth still leaks,
    Where even Donald Trump has got soul.
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 4,794
    I think l'm witnessing a rational discussion of abortion on the internet. What is wrong with people these days!!!
  • RYMERYME Wisconsin Posts: 256
    edited March 21

    I fully intend to adopt. And I wish more people would be open to it to. Usually the response to not adopting is it is too expensive. That should be fixed.


    Edit - if it is inconclvenient to you from a monetary standpoint, it is cool to kill a baby?

    If it is inconvenient to you to understand embryology, should you have an opinion on the matter?

    You dismissed the technical aspects of fetal development and persist in using the term "baby" which is inaccurate and disingenuous.
    You are free to believe that a fetus should not be aborted, but when you use the improper terms, you align yourselves with a crowd that cherishes it's ignorance.

    I will always use the term baby instead of embryo or cell, not because I dont understand the science, but by doing so it aligns the psychological part of an abortion to realize what it is you are choosing to do by aborting. Labeling it as anything else causes a disconnect and normalizes the act

    An embryo is not a fetus and a fetus is not a baby.
    Is a baby an adult?
    Labels are functions of distinction, and they matter.

    When you choose to use terms you know to be incorrect for psychologic effect you are normalizing irrationality. It's hard to change people's minds from an admittedly biased viewpoint.


    Im not disagreeing with your first sentence. Again, as I have said, the fact of the matter is that a baby is developing. You are right, I should be more clear in my terminology so i will now say "developing into a baby" instead of just "baby." I believe everyone should be informed about the science and psychological effects that go along with abortion. I wasn't proposing that people should be brainwashed by any means.

    I respect your opinion on the matter, changing your mind is not my goal. But hopefully i will be able to positively change the mind of at least one female going through this dilemma in my lifetime through moral support or however possible.

    It's usually not my goal to change minds on this subject either, I just seek to bring honesty to the topic.

    First, it is completely normal to refer to an embryo or fetus as a "baby." Mothers do it in pretty much every pregnancy I've ever seen. I have never heard a single person ask "how is your embryo today?" to a pregnant mom, they always ask "how is the baby doing?"
    The only time anyone objects to this is when the topic is abortion because the goal is to minimize the life.
    That is truly what the pro-life/pro-choice debate is really about.
    Usually "women's rights" is the main argument for pro-choice. Hasn't been here and that is a first I think. But every other argument for pro-choice, (waiting for better circumstances, too cumbersome, don't want another kid, the cost, etc) is meaningless, just like every other argument for pro-life is as well (some people cant have kids and want to adopt, or whatever the case is). It always comes down to one thing, and one thing only. Is it life?
    Every single person I have ever heard of being pro-choice believe life, or at least human life with any rights, does not exist until later. They are not murders or evil people, and it is easy to see if you don't view it as a life, then why should the woman not have the right to chose.
    Just like every single pro-life person I have ever known believes it is a life, and the right to live trumps the right to chose. I have never heard of or know of anyone who is pro-life because they believe women are lesser than men and think they don't deserve equal rights.
    Here is where I don't understand all the hate and rage against pro-lifers, and are more often than not called bigots or sexists for their views (even though many are women themselves).
    If someone believes it is a life, shouldn't it be their duty to voice their opinion? How evil would it be to believe life is being terminated and not care about it enough to at least voice their opinion? That is why arguments on cost involved, or anything unrelated to life are irrelevant. How many have fought so hard for the right of a relatively small population to use a certain bathroom? Shouldn't we be fighting harder for what we believe is life?
    I'm pro-life because I can't imagine something with a heartbeat and developing features as anything other than a life. And with advancing medicine the gender can even be determined in several weeks. I don't think science will ever be able to prove one way or another when life begins, we can just debate or beliefs on the matter. Its obvious that some form of life exists in the earliest stages of pregnancy, why would it not be the first stage of human life?

    The goal is to be correct. It matters.

    Maybe, but my point was it is unfair and inaccurate to discredit someone solely based on them referring to am embryo as a baby. You made the claim they were uninformed and don't understand the science behind it because they used that word in describing an embryo/fetus.
    After 2 kids I can't recall a single conversation when any doctor, nurse, ultrasound tech, or anyone who referred to it as anything other than "baby" during any stage of the pregnancy. That really seemed to be your whole argument, "If it is inconvenient to you to understand embryology, should you have an opinion on the matter?" and "You dismissed the technical aspects of fetal development and persist in using the term "baby" which is inaccurate and disingenuous." which I find to be inaccurate statements when even the medical field refers to it as a "baby."
    I'm not saying this proves my case, but rather It isn't a lack of understanding or disingenuous, it is common terminology used even by professionals. The only time it is ever an issue is during pro life/choice arguments when there is an emphasis that it is not a human life. Other than that, everyone seems okay with it. And someone shouldn't be dismissed for using that term.

    Doctors and nurses who refer to an embryo or fetus as a baby are appealing to emotion, attempting to induce an emotional connection between a parent and future child (you should stop smoking because it will affect the development of your embryo vs. you should stop smoking because it will affect the development of your child - which sounds more impactful). I'd be shocked if these doctors and nurses would dispute the fact that, technically, they are witnessing the development of an embryo, if asked.

    In addition, conversations with professionals involve context. It would feel cold and callused to tell a new set of hopeful parents for them to hear that their embryo is developing adequately, because a medical professional is being sought after not just for a professional opinion, but also emotional guidance and nurturing through a new experience. A medical consultation between a pregnant woman and her doctor is not a scientific inquiry. The discussion about abortion is absolutely scientific inquiry, which should focus on logic over appeal to emotion.

    I don't disagree. I still stand by my statement though that it is common usage and someone shouldn't be dismissed and considered uninformed because they refer to an embryo as a baby. People use common terms all the time that are not scientifically, or in other ways, accurate. When someone asks for a Kleenex, do you stop them and say "uhh, did you mean a tissue?" Or do you just give them a tissue?
    Using the term "baby" to describe any level of development is common usage for many people, and doesn't reflect their knowledge, or lack of, the developmental process.

    Except when they engage in a debate and resort to 'killing babies' as their argument. Then... their knowledge of the developmental process could be called to question.

    An abortion in timely fashion is not killing babies.

    What is timely for abortion?
    Only 3 weeks and 1 day after fertilization, a really really small heart begins to beat. By 4 weeks the heart typically beats 105 - 121 times per minute. So there is alot going on here. While researching some of this, I came across this video. I've got 3 children of my own, made me tear up a bit.
    Even when they are the size of a peanut, it's an amazing miracle. It doesn't take to darn long before there is a little person in there.



    Thanks to a few of you and MACE1229, for articulating this better than I do.
    Post edited by RYME on
  • mace1229 said:

    mace1229 said:

    benjs said:

    mace1229 said:

    rgambs said:

    mace1229 said:

    rgambs said:

    rgambs said:

    rgambs said:

    rgambs said:

    "Sure, as long as "you", ie someone else, is willing to sacrifice of themselves to create and sustain that baby"

    I fully intend to adopt. And I wish more people would be open to it to. Usually the response to not adopting is it is too expensive. That should be fixed.


    Edit - if it is inconclvenient to you from a monetary standpoint, it is cool to kill a baby?

    If it is inconvenient to you to understand embryology, should you have an opinion on the matter?
    What makes you think I dont understand it?
    You dismissed the technical aspects of fetal development and persist in using the term "baby" which is inaccurate and disingenuous.
    You are free to believe that a fetus should not be aborted, but when you use the improper terms, you align yourselves with a crowd that cherishes it's ignorance.
    I will always use the term baby instead of embryo or cell, not because I dont understand the science, but by doing so it aligns the psychological part of an abortion to realize what it is you are choosing to do by aborting. Labeling it as anything else causes a disconnect and normalizes the act
    An embryo is not a fetus and a fetus is not a baby.
    Is a baby an adult?
    Labels are functions of distinction, and they matter.

    When you choose to use terms you know to be incorrect for psychologic effect you are normalizing irrationality. It's hard to change people's minds from an admittedly biased viewpoint.

    Im not disagreeing with your first sentence. Again, as I have said, the fact of the matter is that a baby is developing. You are right, I should be more clear in my terminology so i will now say "developing into a baby" instead of just "baby." I believe everyone should be informed about the science and psychological effects that go along with abortion. I wasn't proposing that people should be brainwashed by any means.

    I respect your opinion on the matter, changing your mind is not my goal. But hopefully i will be able to positively change the mind of at least one female going through this dilemma in my lifetime through moral support or however possible.
    It's usually not my goal to change minds on this subject either, I just seek to bring honesty to the topic.
    First, it is completely normal to refer to an embryo or fetus as a "baby." Mothers do it in pretty much every pregnancy I've ever seen. I have never heard a single person ask "how is your embryo today?" to a pregnant mom, they always ask "how is the baby doing?"
    The only time anyone objects to this is when the topic is abortion because the goal is to minimize the life.
    That is truly what the pro-life/pro-choice debate is really about.
    Usually "women's rights" is the main argument for pro-choice. Hasn't been here and that is a first I think. But every other argument for pro-choice, (waiting for better circumstances, too cumbersome, don't want another kid, the cost, etc) is meaningless, just like every other argument for pro-life is as well (some people cant have kids and want to adopt, or whatever the case is). It always comes down to one thing, and one thing only. Is it life?

    I'm pro-life because I can't imagine something with a heartbeat and developing features as anything other than a life. And with advancing medicine the gender can even be determined in several weeks. I don't think science will ever be able to prove one way or another when life begins, we can just debate or beliefs on the matter. Its obvious that some form of life exists in the earliest stages of pregnancy, why would it not be the first stage of human life?
    The goal is to be correct. It matters.
    Maybe, but my point was it is unfair and inaccurate to discredit someone solely based on them referring to am embryo as a baby. You made the claim they were uninformed and don't understand the science behind it because they used that word in describing an embryo/fetus.
    After 2 kids I can't recall a single conversation when any doctor, nurse, ultrasound tech, or anyone who referred to it as anything other than "baby" during any stage of the pregnancy. That really seemed to be your whole argument, "If it is inconvenient to you to understand embryology, should you have an opinion on the matter?" and "You dismissed the technical aspects of fetal development and persist in using the term "baby" which is inaccurate and disingenuous." which I find to be inaccurate statements when even the medical field refers to it as a "baby."
    I'm not saying this proves my case, but rather It isn't a lack of understanding or disingenuous, it is common terminology used even by professionals. The only time it is ever an issue is during pro life/choice arguments when there is an emphasis that it is not a human life. Other than that, everyone seems okay with it. And someone shouldn't be dismissed for using that term.
    Doctors and nurses who refer to an embryo or fetus as a baby are appealing to emotion, attempting to induce an emotional connection between a parent and future child (you should stop smoking because it will affect the development of your embryo vs. you should stop smoking because it will affect the development of your child - which sounds more impactful). I'd be shocked if these doctors and nurses would dispute the fact that, technically, they are witnessing the development of an embryo, if asked.

    In addition, conversations with professionals involve context. It would feel cold and callused to tell a new set of hopeful parents for them to hear that their embryo is developing adequately, because a medical professional is being sought after not just for a professional opinion, but also emotional guidance and nurturing through a new experience. A medical consultation between a pregnant woman and her doctor is not a scientific inquiry. The discussion about abortion is absolutely scientific inquiry, which should focus on logic over appeal to emotion.
    I don't disagree. I still stand by my statement though that it is common usage and someone shouldn't be dismissed and considered uninformed because they refer to an embryo as a baby. People use common terms all the time that are not scientifically, or in other ways, accurate. When someone asks for a Kleenex, do you stop them and say "uhh, did you mean a tissue?" Or do you just give them a tissue?
    Using the term "baby" to describe any level of development is common usage for many people, and doesn't reflect their knowledge, or lack of, the developmental process.
    Except when they engage in a debate and resort to 'killing babies' as their argument. Then... their knowledge of the developmental process could be called to question.

    An abortion in timely fashion is not killing babies.
    I agree, I wouldn't accuse someone of being a baby killer. I think equally misleading is the argument of "its just tissue."
    Just tissue to most implies the lack of human features like a heartbeat, a gender, recognizable features. Both descriptions are meant to paint a picture that the person wants.
    There needs to be more to a debate than "you're killing babies" and "no, its just tissue." But I think the debate should focus around life, why you believe so, and nothing else really matters in this context.
    Mace...

    I'm in the middle. I feel that there is a window of opportunity for the woman to abort without much of a semblance of life.

    I feel strongly against aborted babies gasping their dying breaths on the stainless steel operating table.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • RYMERYME Wisconsin Posts: 256
    I was very moved at the PJ20 shows at Alpine Valley. When I saw so many different flags from around the world. I sort of felt like I was at the olympics. I thought how great it is that this band has the ability to bring people together from around the globe to enjoy each others company, celebrate & sing along.
    What is it about Pear Jam that makes them so enjoyable and so great to so many of us? For me and for many of you, we've enjoyed them every step of the way.
    I've thought about this on & off for years as we approach their well deserved Rock and Roll Hall of Fame induction. I don't know about everyone, but for me they changed the face of music and the way I view quality music. I've enjoyed a wide range of music my whole life, but since they came out and I listen to them over the years and was fortunate to have witnessed many outstanding shows. They have set the bar so high for me, that an otherwise really good band is just that, music that I enjoy, go see and are good but they're not Pearl Jam good. The camaraderie their chemistry their relation with the fans All the Above. But many of us listen to a lot of music and enjoy a lot of music. I appreciate their activism there fantastic charity works that they do. I so enjoy meeting some of you at the shows where we just talked for a few minutes or half an hour and immediately it's like we've been friends for a while even though we're complete strangers.. There style of music that they do is very unique.
    Ed's voice combined with raw emotion, and a world class band is just the perfect storm. Songs that lement and accelerate like Black. Songs that burn off pent up anxieties like I Got Shit. Songs that start off at a rapid boil like Hail Hail, songs about reminiscing Smile, Smile always reminds me of my grandpa because he always made me laugh. Songs where you can just feel the love like Sirens & Future Days. If there is anger in the song, Eddie gets angry while singing and rolls his eyes. If there is ultimate love in the song such as Sirens, you can feel Eddie's & the bands actual love as we sing along. Some songs have a great combination of both. Nobody grips/strangles the microphone quite like Eddie as he is pumping his emotions into it.
    If not a full beard, how many of us guys grow a nice tidy little soulpatch the week leading up to the show? It's fun right? Because we want to be a little bit like Ed. I have done so and have noticed​ alot of them. I certainly don't wear a soulpatch year round.
    I've had an official (DOT) YIELD sign on the front of my garage for years. I hope that they continue another 25 years.
    What if,,, Eddie had been aborted?
    No Pear Jam, no 10club, and just take a step back & look at what we all would have missed out on. When an abortion takes place, you have no idea who it is that you are getting​ rid of and what their potential was.
    It doesn't matter weather the termination takes place at 3 weeks and a day (when the heart begins to beat), or late term abortions. You are taking away an individual that the world will never know.
  • benjsbenjs Toronto, ONPosts: 6,629
    RYME said:

    I was very moved at the PJ20 shows at Alpine Valley. When I saw so many different flags from around the world. I sort of felt like I was at the olympics. I thought how great it is that this band has the ability to bring people together from around the globe to enjoy each others company, celebrate & sing along.
    What is it about Pear Jam that makes them so enjoyable and so great to so many of us? For me and for many of you, we've enjoyed them every step of the way.
    I've thought about this on & off for years as we approach their well deserved Rock and Roll Hall of Fame induction. I don't know about everyone, but for me they changed the face of music and the way I view quality music. I've enjoyed a wide range of music my whole life, but since they came out and I listen to them over the years and was fortunate to have witnessed many outstanding shows. They have set the bar so high for me, that an otherwise really good band is just that, music that I enjoy, go see and are good but they're not Pearl Jam good. The camaraderie their chemistry their relation with the fans All the Above. But many of us listen to a lot of music and enjoy a lot of music. I appreciate their activism there fantastic charity works that they do. I so enjoy meeting some of you at the shows where we just talked for a few minutes or half an hour and immediately it's like we've been friends for a while even though we're complete strangers.. There style of music that they do is very unique.
    Ed's voice combined with raw emotion, and a world class band is just the perfect storm. Songs that lement and accelerate like Black. Songs that burn off pent up anxieties like I Got Shit. Songs that start off at a rapid boil like Hail Hail, songs about reminiscing Smile, Smile always reminds me of my grandpa because he always made me laugh. Songs where you can just feel the love like Sirens & Future Days. If there is anger in the song, Eddie gets angry while singing and rolls his eyes. If there is ultimate love in the song such as Sirens, you can feel Eddie's & the bands actual love as we sing along. Some songs have a great combination of both. Nobody grips/strangles the microphone quite like Eddie as he is pumping his emotions into it.
    If not a full beard, how many of us guys grow a nice tidy little soulpatch the week leading up to the show? It's fun right? Because we want to be a little bit like Ed. I have done so and have noticed​ alot of them. I certainly don't wear a soulpatch year round.
    I've had an official (DOT) YIELD sign on the front of my garage for years. I hope that they continue another 25 years.
    What if,,, Eddie had been aborted?
    No Pear Jam, no 10club, and just take a step back & look at what we all would have missed out on. When an abortion takes place, you have no idea who it is that you are getting​ rid of and what their potential was.
    It doesn't matter weather the termination takes place at 3 weeks and a day (when the heart begins to beat), or late term abortions. You are taking away an individual that the world will never know.

    Are you seriously using appeal to love for Pearl Jam as a grossly embellished argument against abortion?

    If opportunity cost is the name of the game, why don't you stop driving? Your carbon emissions will most definitely factor into your future descendents' inability to see Pearl Jam due to the destruction of the planet. Or, you know, the fact that Pearl Jam members will be dead or crotchety old men. Which ever comes first.

    You should also live a vegan lifestyle, only consuming the bare minimum of what you've produced, and donating the rest (so that the potential messiah doesn't die of starvation). Again, large carbon footprint will most definitely snuff out the lives of the living in due time.

    What about suicide (voluntary or assisted)? If your mind tells you that your life will certainly be shitty, and/or your mental/physical illness compels you to leave this place, do you permit that? What's the difference between your mind telling you this, and your parents' mind telling you this should you not be capable of doing so for yourself?

    If Eddie had been aborted, no one would know about Pearl Jam. Thus, I (and hundreds of thousands of others) would never have known what we would have lost, but Eddie's mother would have known the mistake she would have prevented.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • drakeheuer14drakeheuer14 Posts: 790
    Suicide is taking your own life though, not deciding the fate of another future life like abortion. Im not sure I understand your comparison to that?

    And the beginning of your last paragraph supports why RYME wrote all that (if im not mistaken.)
    Pittsburgh 2013
    Cincinnati 2014
    Greenville 2016
    (Raleigh 2016)
    Columbia 2016
  • dignindignin Posts: 4,473
    RYME said:

    I was very moved at the PJ20 shows at Alpine Valley. When I saw so many different flags from around the world. I sort of felt like I was at the olympics. I thought how great it is that this band has the ability to bring people together from around the globe to enjoy each others company, celebrate & sing along.
    What is it about Pear Jam that makes them so enjoyable and so great to so many of us? For me and for many of you, we've enjoyed them every step of the way.
    I've thought about this on & off for years as we approach their well deserved Rock and Roll Hall of Fame induction. I don't know about everyone, but for me they changed the face of music and the way I view quality music. I've enjoyed a wide range of music my whole life, but since they came out and I listen to them over the years and was fortunate to have witnessed many outstanding shows. They have set the bar so high for me, that an otherwise really good band is just that, music that I enjoy, go see and are good but they're not Pearl Jam good. The camaraderie their chemistry their relation with the fans All the Above. But many of us listen to a lot of music and enjoy a lot of music. I appreciate their activism there fantastic charity works that they do. I so enjoy meeting some of you at the shows where we just talked for a few minutes or half an hour and immediately it's like we've been friends for a while even though we're complete strangers.. There style of music that they do is very unique.
    Ed's voice combined with raw emotion, and a world class band is just the perfect storm. Songs that lement and accelerate like Black. Songs that burn off pent up anxieties like I Got Shit. Songs that start off at a rapid boil like Hail Hail, songs about reminiscing Smile, Smile always reminds me of my grandpa because he always made me laugh. Songs where you can just feel the love like Sirens & Future Days. If there is anger in the song, Eddie gets angry while singing and rolls his eyes. If there is ultimate love in the song such as Sirens, you can feel Eddie's & the bands actual love as we sing along. Some songs have a great combination of both. Nobody grips/strangles the microphone quite like Eddie as he is pumping his emotions into it.
    If not a full beard, how many of us guys grow a nice tidy little soulpatch the week leading up to the show? It's fun right? Because we want to be a little bit like Ed. I have done so and have noticed​ alot of them. I certainly don't wear a soulpatch year round.
    I've had an official (DOT) YIELD sign on the front of my garage for years. I hope that they continue another 25 years.
    What if,,, Eddie had been aborted?
    No Pear Jam, no 10club, and just take a step back & look at what we all would have missed out on. When an abortion takes place, you have no idea who it is that you are getting​ rid of and what their potential was.
    It doesn't matter weather the termination takes place at 3 weeks and a day (when the heart begins to beat), or late term abortions. You are taking away an individual that the world will never know.


  • RYMERYME Wisconsin Posts: 256
    edited March 22
    I didn't mean to single out Eddie, but it kinda turned out that way. I was simply using him as an example to make a point.
    You take out 1 person and it changes the Dynamics of everything.
    If Michael Jordan had been aborted, how many championships would the Chicago Bulls have won?
    My point is that every individual is special.
    Nobody can be replaced.
    And abortion takes out a unique and special individual every time it is done.
    Just think about how much of a positive impact this band has had on the people who enjoy them.
    BENJS Helped make my point.
    If Eddie had been aborted, Mike, Stone, Jeff Matt, & Boom would have presumably been making music somewhere, and good music at that with a different lead singer and a different band name,. We just wouldn't have had Pearl Jam.
    And with the millions of abortions that have been conducted, who knows what those​ gone people could have brought to the table of life. We will never know, will we......
    Post edited by RYME on
  • benjsbenjs Toronto, ONPosts: 6,629
    RYME said:

    I didn't mean to single out Eddie, but it kinda turned out that way. I was simply using him as an example to make a point.
    You take out 1 person and it changes the Dynamics of everything.
    If Michael Jordan had been aborted, how many championships would the Chicago Bulls have won?
    My point is that every individual is special.
    Nobody can be replaced.
    And abortion takes out a unique and special individual every time it is done.
    Just think about how much of a positive impact this band has had on the people who enjoy them.
    BENJS Helped make my point.
    If Eddie had been aborted, Mike, Stone, Jeff, & Boom would have presumably been making music, and good music at that with a different lead singer and a different band name,. We just wouldn't have had Pearl Jam.

    Apparently I didn't communicate well. What I was attempting to state is that it is not a woman's obligation to suffer the burden of an unwanted child, even if it means that one day that child could do good things. That child could also be a mass murderer, if we want to continue with ludicrous hypothetical situations. That very woman had no intention of producing a child and bringing that goodness into the world, so why should she inherit that burden from a mistake?
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • RYMERYME Wisconsin Posts: 256
    benjs said:

    RYME said:

    I didn't mean to single out Eddie, but it kinda turned out that way. I was simply using him as an example to make a point.
    You take out 1 person and it changes the Dynamics of everything.
    If Michael Jordan had been aborted, how many championships would the Chicago Bulls have won?
    My point is that every individual is special.
    Nobody can be replaced.
    And abortion takes out a unique and special individual every time it is done.
    Just think about how much of a positive impact this band has had on the people who enjoy them.
    BENJS Helped make my point.
    If Eddie had been aborted, Mike, Stone, Jeff, & Boom would have presumably been making music, and good music at that with a different lead singer and a different band name,. We just wouldn't have had Pearl Jam.

    Apparently I didn't communicate well. What I was attempting to state is that it is not a woman's obligation to suffer the burden of an unwanted child, even if it means that one day that child could do good things. That child could also be a mass murderer, if we want to continue with ludicrous hypothetical situations. That very woman had no intention of producing a child and bringing that goodness into the world, so why should she inherit that burden from a mistake?
    Don't get me started on what should happen to murderers, and rapists...
  • unsungunsung Posts: 7,105
    I don't believe that 60k was raised, only the government is able to fund things.

    Next thing you will see is people sending donations to PBS and NEA. Blasphemy!
  • benjsbenjs Toronto, ONPosts: 6,629
    RYME said:

    benjs said:

    RYME said:

    I didn't mean to single out Eddie, but it kinda turned out that way. I was simply using him as an example to make a point.
    You take out 1 person and it changes the Dynamics of everything.
    If Michael Jordan had been aborted, how many championships would the Chicago Bulls have won?
    My point is that every individual is special.
    Nobody can be replaced.
    And abortion takes out a unique and special individual every time it is done.
    Just think about how much of a positive impact this band has had on the people who enjoy them.
    BENJS Helped make my point.
    If Eddie had been aborted, Mike, Stone, Jeff, & Boom would have presumably been making music, and good music at that with a different lead singer and a different band name,. We just wouldn't have had Pearl Jam.

    Apparently I didn't communicate well. What I was attempting to state is that it is not a woman's obligation to suffer the burden of an unwanted child, even if it means that one day that child could do good things. That child could also be a mass murderer, if we want to continue with ludicrous hypothetical situations. That very woman had no intention of producing a child and bringing that goodness into the world, so why should she inherit that burden from a mistake?
    Don't get me started on what should happen to murderers, and rapists...
    I won't. I came here to discuss Planned Parenthood and the important work they do in promoting a pro-choice country.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • RYMERYME Wisconsin Posts: 256
    edited March 22
    benjs said:

    RYME said:

    benjs said:

    RYME said:

    I didn't mean to single out Eddie, but it kinda turned out that way. I was simply using him as an example to make a point.
    You take out 1 person and it changes the Dynamics of everything.
    If Michael Jordan had been aborted, how many championships would the Chicago Bulls have won?
    My point is that every individual is special.
    Nobody can be replaced.
    And abortion takes out a unique and special individual every time it is done.
    Just think about how much of a positive impact this band has had on the people who enjoy them.
    BENJS Helped make my point.
    If Eddie had been aborted, Mike, Stone, Jeff, & Boom would have presumably been making music, and good music at that with a different lead singer and a different band name,. We just wouldn't have had Pearl Jam.

    Apparently I didn't communicate well. What I was attempting to state is that it is not a woman's obligation to suffer the burden of an unwanted child, even if it means that one day that child could do good things. That child could also be a mass murderer, if we want to continue with ludicrous hypothetical situations. That very woman had no intention of producing a child and bringing that goodness into the world, so why should she inherit that burden from a mistake?
    Don't get me started on what should happen to murderers, and rapists...
    I won't. I came here to discuss Planned Parenthood and the important work they do in promoting a pro-choice country.
    It's okay. Some of the kneejerk reactions I get here are amazing to me. I have to hold my breath when I click on this discussion to see what kinda reaction my latest post prompted.. The guy at the top of this whole thread cleverly told me to fuck off with out actually saying it. And I'm glad that he is here to amongst us and not aborted.
    For what it's worth, I'm trying to get people to realize that abortions maby should be the very last option. I never said that it shouldn't be an option. I'm glad that you were not aborted and that you can discuss things with me. If I ever bump into you at a show, I'd be glad to buy you a beer.
    Jordan fades back,,swish,,and that's the game!! =)
    Post edited by RYME on
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 939
    I'll take a beer.
  • Ryme...

    I don't think abortions are taken lightly by the woman pregnant. There is an emotional toll that weighs heavy on most women.

    The procedure typically is the very last option. And if done in timely fashion, the 'baby' isn't a baby. It's goo.

    Your 'missing out on some good people' argument isn't a strong one. As Benjs said, the goo could develop into a mass murderer and further, the goo that develops into a child might prevent the woman from having another child later- the child that was destined to cure cancer.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • riley540riley540 Bellingham WAPosts: 474
    I'm pro life, and anti capital punishment. Every person has a chance. I don't think any human has the right to decide the fate of another, even if that human is inside you.

    Don't kill me on here! I feel a wall of death coming my way
  • riley540 said:

    I'm pro life, and anti capital punishment. Every person has a chance. I don't think any human has the right to decide the fate of another, even if that human is inside you.

    Don't kill me on here! I feel a wall of death coming my way

    Are you religious? Does this factor into your reasoning?
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • RYMERYME Wisconsin Posts: 256
    edited March 23
    Maby a little bit of Porch to start off the day.
    It's never too early for Porch is it?



    You know what. Maby I will write it on my arm someday too Pro-Choice on one arm and Pro Life on the other., A Pro-Lifer can be pro-choice at the same time. Why don't we try as a compassionate people try to make the women's decisions easier in the first place.
    I am Pro Choice too. And that is my favourite version of Porch by the way. Yes the MTV UNPLUGGED Porch, what a fantastic finish on that song, kind of like a primal call to action. Awesome. Hmm I have ADD got distracted,,lol. Anyway
    At no point in all my ramblings have I ever stated that the woman does not have the right to decide what to do with her body and her baby. I have been trying to illustrate why I think it is best to air on the side of life. But it is infact Her choice ultimately.
    Maby we should take a deep dive into the root causes of unplanned pregnancies and go from there. Maby TRY to stop unplanned pregnancies before they start. And then the wonderful women would therefore maby not be forced to have to make such a tough decision in the first place.
    Post edited by RYME on
  • benjsbenjs Toronto, ONPosts: 6,629
    RYME said:

    Maby a little bit of Porch to start off the day.
    It's never too early for Porch is it?
    And this discussion.


    You know what. Maby I will write it on my arm someday too Pro-Choice on one arm and Pro Life on the other., A Pro-Lifer can be pro-choice at the same time. Why don't we try as a compassionate people try to make the women's decisions easier in the first place.
    I am Pro Choice too. And that is my favourite version of Porch by the way. Yes the MTV UNPLUGGED Porch, what a fantastic finish on that song. Hmm I have ADD got distracted,,lol. Anyway
    At no point in all my ramblings have I ever stated that the woman does not have the right to decide what to do with her body and her baby. I have been trying to illustrate why I think it is best to air on the side of life. But it is infact Her choice ultimately.
    Maby we should take a deep dive into the root causes of unplanned pregnancies and go from there. Maby TRY to stop unplanned pregnancies before they start. And then the wonderful women would therefore maby not be forced to have to make such a tough decision in the first place.

    Do you think that at the onset of this discussion women were just eager to get pregnant so they could run happily to abortion clinics? You seriously don't understand women who have had abortions if you think the decision is anything less than emotional torture most times.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • riley540riley540 Bellingham WAPosts: 474
    edited March 23

    riley540 said:

    I'm pro life, and anti capital punishment. Every person has a chance. I don't think any human has the right to decide the fate of another, even if that human is inside you.

    Don't kill me on here! I feel a wall of death coming my way

    Are you religious? Does this factor into your reasoning?
    Not religious. I'm 21, and by choice attended a baptist church throughout high school. I couldn't get down with the anti gay message they tried to push, or many other flimsy things. I'm open to the idea of god, but don't base my life around it at this point. I think there's a wicked debate of where life begins. I believe when there is a heart beat. Just my opinion, it's up for debate and I don't think anyone is wrong for disagreeing. :)
    Post edited by riley540 on
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 11,895
    "you're not a life until you're in the phone book" ~ Bill Hicks (RIP)
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 939
    Steve Martin's best movie- The Jerk.
    "I'm finally somebody!" when he gets into the phonebook.
  • riley540 said:

    riley540 said:

    I'm pro life, and anti capital punishment. Every person has a chance. I don't think any human has the right to decide the fate of another, even if that human is inside you.

    Don't kill me on here! I feel a wall of death coming my way

    Are you religious? Does this factor into your reasoning?
    Not religious. I'm 21, and by choice attended a baptist church throughout high school. I couldn't get down with the anti gay message they tried to push, or many other flimsy things. I'm open to the idea of god, but don't base my life around it at this point. I think there's a wicked debate of where life begins. I believe when there is a heart beat. Just my opinion, it's up for debate and I don't think anyone is wrong for disagreeing. :)
    I only asked because if religious indoctrination was the reason for your beliefs... I'd have dismissed them. It sounds as if you have come to your idea through your own internal means and as such, I can respect your opinion even though I disagree with it.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 939
    I don't think religion plays as big of a role as it gets credit for.
    No where in the Bible, Koran, Torah, or anything else does it discuss abortion that I am aware of. Religious leaders often teach against abortion, but for the reason I had mentioned before. Not because religion says so, but because they believe it to be the earliest form of human life and terminating a human life is wrong.
    There is definitely a correlation with religion and pro-life. More religious people tend to believe life begins sooner, and more non-religious people think it begins later.
    What I mean by that is no one says they are prolife because they are Christian. They say they are prolife because they believe life to begin at or within days/weeks of conception, and a large portion of these people are also religious.
  • HesCalledDyerHesCalledDyer MarylandPosts: 7,448
    riley540 said:

    I'm pro life, and anti capital punishment. Every person has a chance. I don't think any human has the right to decide the fate of another, even if that human is inside you.

    Don't kill me on here! I feel a wall of death coming my way

    Does creating a law that tells women what they can or cannot do with their bodies count as humans deciding the fate of others?
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 4,794
    What's also interesting is that science effects the abortion debate behined the scenes basically, but hard core Christian fundamentalists are often the first to deny science.
  • riley540riley540 Bellingham WAPosts: 474


    riley540 said:

    I'm pro life, and anti capital punishment. Every person has a chance. I don't think any human has the right to decide the fate of another, even if that human is inside you.

    Don't kill me on here! I feel a wall of death coming my way

    Does creating a law that tells women what they can or cannot do with their bodies count as humans deciding the fate of others?
    That's where the debate gets icy. I think anyone has rights to make decisions for themselves, but it's weather or not the baby inside is considered human where I take a step back and think. I personally believe life begins with the first best of the heart, most religious people believe it's at conception, and some people believe it's at birth. I know a lot of people disagree with me, and I think that's completely ok. I think the first trimester argument is fair. like I said, it's just a conclusion I've personally drawn for myself. My long term girlfriend and I have both settled on the same thing and we both don't think our opinion should affect other people's. As Louis CK said once, "your either killing a baby.. or your just taking a shit out of your vagina." Who knows? Hahaha

  • HesCalledDyerHesCalledDyer MarylandPosts: 7,448
    riley540 said:


    riley540 said:

    I'm pro life, and anti capital punishment. Every person has a chance. I don't think any human has the right to decide the fate of another, even if that human is inside you.

    Don't kill me on here! I feel a wall of death coming my way

    Does creating a law that tells women what they can or cannot do with their bodies count as humans deciding the fate of others?
    That's where the debate gets icy. I think anyone has rights to make decisions for themselves, but it's weather or not the baby inside is considered human where I take a step back and think. I personally believe life begins with the first best of the heart, most religious people believe it's at conception, and some people believe it's at birth. I know a lot of people disagree with me, and I think that's completely ok. I think the first trimester argument is fair. like I said, it's just a conclusion I've personally drawn for myself. My long term girlfriend and I have both settled on the same thing and we both don't think our opinion should affect other people's. As Louis CK said once, "your either killing a baby.. or your just taking a shit out of your vagina." Who knows? Hahaha
    That's the important part right there. Often times we're grouped into these pigeonholed dichotomies as if we cannot partially belong to both ends of the spectrum. It's either this or that. Fortunately, the world doesn't work that way. There's a whole lot of grey area in between. Being pro-life doesn't mean that you can't or won't respect others' choices. It sounds like you have a personal pro-life stance and you prescribe to your own moral code, but you don't feel you should force your views and thus have an openness to pro-choice for others. Empathy, not oppression, is what we need more of in this world. Great response!
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