60K Raised for Planned Parenthood.

benjs

RYME said:

Maby a little bit of Porch to start off the day.
It's never too early for Porch is it?
And this discussion.
https://youtu.be/hjUBg47zfl8

You know what. Maby I will write it on my arm someday too Pro-Choice on one arm and Pro Life on the other., A Pro-Lifer can be pro-choice at the same time. Why don't we try as a compassionate people try to make the women's decisions easier in the first place.
I am Pro Choice too. And that is my favourite version of Porch by the way. Yes the MTV UNPLUGGED Porch, what a fantastic finish on that song. Hmm I have ADD got distracted,,lol. Anyway
At no point in all my ramblings have I ever stated that the woman does not have the right to decide what to do with her body and her baby. I have been trying to illustrate why I think it is best to air on the side of life. But it is infact Her choice ultimately.
Maby we should take a deep dive into the root causes of unplanned pregnancies and go from there. Maby TRY to stop unplanned pregnancies before they start. And then the wonderful women would therefore maby not be forced to have to make such a tough decision in the first place.

Do you think that at the onset of this discussion women were just eager to get pregnant so they could run happily to abortion clinics? You seriously don't understand women who have had abortions if you think the decision is anything less than emotional torture most times.

riley540

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

riley540 said:

I'm pro life, and anti capital punishment. Every person has a chance. I don't think any human has the right to decide the fate of another, even if that human is inside you.

Don't kill me on here! I feel a wall of death coming my way

Are you religious? Does this factor into your reasoning?

Not religious. I'm 21, and by choice attended a baptist church throughout high school. I couldn't get down with the anti gay message they tried to push, or many other flimsy things. I'm open to the idea of god, but don't base my life around it at this point. I think there's a wicked debate of where life begins. I believe when there is a heart beat. Just my opinion, it's up for debate and I don't think anyone is wrong for disagreeing.

my2hands

"you're not a life until you're in the phone book" ~ Bill Hicks (RIP)

mace1229

Steve Martin's best movie- The Jerk.
"I'm finally somebody!" when he gets into the phonebook.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

riley540 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

riley540 said:

I'm pro life, and anti capital punishment. Every person has a chance. I don't think any human has the right to decide the fate of another, even if that human is inside you.

Don't kill me on here! I feel a wall of death coming my way

Are you religious? Does this factor into your reasoning?

Not religious. I'm 21, and by choice attended a baptist church throughout high school. I couldn't get down with the anti gay message they tried to push, or many other flimsy things. I'm open to the idea of god, but don't base my life around it at this point. I think there's a wicked debate of where life begins. I believe when there is a heart beat. Just my opinion, it's up for debate and I don't think anyone is wrong for disagreeing.

I only asked because if religious indoctrination was the reason for your beliefs... I'd have dismissed them. It sounds as if you have come to your idea through your own internal means and as such, I can respect your opinion even though I disagree with it.

mace1229

I don't think religion plays as big of a role as it gets credit for.
No where in the Bible, Koran, Torah, or anything else does it discuss abortion that I am aware of. Religious leaders often teach against abortion, but for the reason I had mentioned before. Not because religion says so, but because they believe it to be the earliest form of human life and terminating a human life is wrong.
There is definitely a correlation with religion and pro-life. More religious people tend to believe life begins sooner, and more non-religious people think it begins later.
What I mean by that is no one says they are prolife because they are Christian. They say they are prolife because they believe life to begin at or within days/weeks of conception, and a large portion of these people are also religious.

HesCalledDyer

riley540 said:

I'm pro life, and anti capital punishment. Every person has a chance. I don't think any human has the right to decide the fate of another, even if that human is inside you.

Don't kill me on here! I feel a wall of death coming my way

Does creating a law that tells women what they can or cannot do with their bodies count as humans deciding the fate of others?

Go Beavers

What's also interesting is that science effects the abortion debate behined the scenes basically, but hard core Christian fundamentalists are often the first to deny science.

riley540

HesCalledDyer said:

riley540 said:

I'm pro life, and anti capital punishment. Every person has a chance. I don't think any human has the right to decide the fate of another, even if that human is inside you.

Don't kill me on here! I feel a wall of death coming my way

Does creating a law that tells women what they can or cannot do with their bodies count as humans deciding the fate of others?

That's where the debate gets icy. I think anyone has rights to make decisions for themselves, but it's weather or not the baby inside is considered human where I take a step back and think. I personally believe life begins with the first best of the heart, most religious people believe it's at conception, and some people believe it's at birth. I know a lot of people disagree with me, and I think that's completely ok. I think the first trimester argument is fair. like I said, it's just a conclusion I've personally drawn for myself. My long term girlfriend and I have both settled on the same thing and we both don't think our opinion should affect other people's. As Louis CK said once, "your either killing a baby.. or your just taking a shit out of your vagina." Who knows? Hahaha

HesCalledDyer

riley540 said:

HesCalledDyer said:

riley540 said:

I'm pro life, and anti capital punishment. Every person has a chance. I don't think any human has the right to decide the fate of another, even if that human is inside you.

Don't kill me on here! I feel a wall of death coming my way

Does creating a law that tells women what they can or cannot do with their bodies count as humans deciding the fate of others?

That's where the debate gets icy. I think anyone has rights to make decisions for themselves, but it's weather or not the baby inside is considered human where I take a step back and think. I personally believe life begins with the first best of the heart, most religious people believe it's at conception, and some people believe it's at birth. I know a lot of people disagree with me, and I think that's completely ok. I think the first trimester argument is fair. like I said, it's just a conclusion I've personally drawn for myself. My long term girlfriend and I have both settled on the same thing and we both don't think our opinion should affect other people's. As Louis CK said once, "your either killing a baby.. or your just taking a shit out of your vagina." Who knows? Hahaha

That's the important part right there. Often times we're grouped into these pigeonholed dichotomies as if we cannot partially belong to both ends of the spectrum. It's either this or that. Fortunately, the world doesn't work that way. There's a whole lot of grey area in between. Being pro-life doesn't mean that you can't or won't respect others' choices. It sounds like you have a personal pro-life stance and you prescribe to your own moral code, but you don't feel you should force your views and thus have an openness to pro-choice for others. Empathy, not oppression, is what we need more of in this world. Great response!

benjs

HesCalledDyer said:

riley540 said:

HesCalledDyer said:

riley540 said:

I'm pro life, and anti capital punishment. Every person has a chance. I don't think any human has the right to decide the fate of another, even if that human is inside you.

Don't kill me on here! I feel a wall of death coming my way

Does creating a law that tells women what they can or cannot do with their bodies count as humans deciding the fate of others?

That's where the debate gets icy. I think anyone has rights to make decisions for themselves, but it's weather or not the baby inside is considered human where I take a step back and think. I personally believe life begins with the first best of the heart, most religious people believe it's at conception, and some people believe it's at birth. I know a lot of people disagree with me, and I think that's completely ok. I think the first trimester argument is fair. like I said, it's just a conclusion I've personally drawn for myself. My long term girlfriend and I have both settled on the same thing and we both don't think our opinion should affect other people's. As Louis CK said once, "your either killing a baby.. or your just taking a shit out of your vagina." Who knows? Hahaha

That's the important part right there. Often times we're grouped into these pigeonholed dichotomies as if we cannot partially belong to both ends of the spectrum. It's either this or that. Fortunately, the world doesn't work that way. There's a whole lot of grey area in between. Being pro-life doesn't mean that you can't or won't respect others' choices. It sounds like you have a personal pro-life stance and you prescribe to your own moral code, but you don't feel you should force your views and thus have an openness to pro-choice for others. Empathy, not oppression, is what we need more of in this world. Great response!

Well put, both of you!

The choice of whether to abort should be up to the person who is most intimately aware about the life they are able (or not able) to provide for a child. It's interesting that even the terms "pro-choice" and "pro-life" implicitly are appeals to emotion. Are you pro-choice? If not, you are anti-choice. Are you pro-life? If not, you are anti-life. To me, I appreciate the labelling of "pro-choice". It does not condone nor condemn abortion - it just acknowledges that it is an option. Pro-life, to me, seems more nefarious. The definition of "life" is not limited to a fetus nor an embryo nor a human - it encompasses produce, animals, bacteria, or any organic materials. To frame one who aborts as a snuffer of life, when the intent is nothing more than to prevent what is predicted to be a bad life, feels dishonest.

With very strong arguments for and against abortions, I truly can't understand why a government should have any place in deciding a person's right to have one if deemed necessary by the people most (and exclusively) affected by them (potential mothers and fathers).

drakeheuer14

someones view is forced on you no matter what the situation is. If it weren't that way then there would be no laws

So who is really to decide which view is correct? The voters. But one side will still call the other side wrong

Go Beavers

The label "pro-life" is a marketing trick started in the seventies. It should be more accurately referred to as anti-choice.

mace1229

that is like calling it anti-life.
Everything is labeled in the pro or positive.

Go Beavers

mace1229 said:

that is like calling it anti-life.
Everything is labeled in the pro or positive.

When something is a negative, like removing freedom of choice, it gets framed up in the positive to make it more digestible and gain support. You see this now with "religious freedom" legislation that has the goal of legalizing discrimination.

drakeheuer14

Right at fertilization, new DNA is present. To me, that means it is its own being, not just the mothers body anymore. Even with no heartbeat justifying life for some here, the embryo is still unique from the mother.

rgambs

drakeheuer14 said:

Right at fertilization, new DNA is present. To me, that means it is its own being, not just the mothers body anymore. Even with no heartbeat justifying life for some here, the embryo is still unique from the mother.

That is something that can't be argued!
How much stock you put in that fact is another story.

riley540

Go Beavers said:

The label "pro-life" is a marketing trick started in the seventies. It should be more accurately referred to as anti-choice.

I personally hold a pro life belief, but also believe that anyone and everyone has the right to disagree with me and decide things on their own

mace1229

Go Beavers said:

mace1229 said:

that is like calling it anti-life.
Everything is labeled in the pro or positive.

When something is a negative, like removing freedom of choice, it gets framed up in the positive to make it more digestible and gain support. You see this now with "religious freedom" legislation that has the goal of legalizing discrimination.

This whole argument could be copied and pasted for pro-choice.
You say it is a negative to remove the choice, and others would say it is a negative to terminate life. Both sides think they are doing the right thing, I don't think anyone on either side is motivated by discrimination or sexism when it comes to abortion rights. I'm just saying that happens in nearly every scenario. Of course they don't phrase it as anti-choice just like no one would phrase it anti-life. Its common practice, I'm unclear why you are targeting pro-life with it.

riley540

As a person who used to be deep into a religious community I will speak from what I witnessed. A massive amount of people consider themselves religious, some bad people, some good people, and a lot of great people. Even though their beliefs may seem wacky to us it's important to note that they see abortion as murder, they believe that at conception life starts. Even though it's a little crazy to me I absolutely respect these people's beliefs. They deep down feel like they are trying to end child murder. Like I said, my church had some wacky people, but a lot of really good people with just a different point of view. Like I said before I believe life starts at the heart beat which comes later. And I am totally on board with the first trimester opinions. I believe both Barack Obama and Mitt Romney agreed on that in 2012 and I will say I agreed as well