Should Pearl Jam Play in Israel?

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  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 8,812
    BS44325 said:
    Pearl Jam won't play an apartheid regime state, professor.
    Radiohead won't either.
    Haha, that's rich.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 10,622
    BS44325 said:
    my2hands said:
    As far as PJ playing Israel... I don't see that happening any time soon... especially considering Roger Waters stance and the BDS, I think PJ would not hesitate to continue to stand in solidarity
    I agree that it is unlikely they'll ever play Israel but I wouldn't exactly call it "solidarity". PJ has never actually wayed in on the issue...none of us have any idea where they stand on BDS. They are friends with Roger Waters but by no means have they endorsed the movement.
    well, they did, albeit briefly and kind of vaguely. at the Milton Keynes show on the LB tour, Ed addressed it. many took his comments as anti-israel, most took it for what it was, just stop fucking killing each other. 
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 10,622
    why the fuck any band would play in any geographical area that is plagued by war is beyond me. 
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 8,206
    The chances of Sheldon Adelson opening a casino on the Temple Mount are greater.
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  • Thirty Bills UnpaidThirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 11,533
    why the fuck any band would play in any geographical area that is plagued by war is beyond me. 
    Common sense really.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 10,622
    BS44325 said:
    I go back and forth on this, but I'm kinda with him too. I mean, if war crimes is the barometer, no one should play in the US. Ever. 
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 5,891
    edited June 2
    What is he right about?  All he did was whine about being called out.  After weeks of silence on this, he lays this turd.  He didn't even address the topic.

    He bitches that others 'think' they have the right to talk down to them, but doesn't care to address Palestinian rights - the basis of the discussion?

    He claims to be educated on the topic, yet says he doesn't understand what the problem is with playing there....did he understand the cultural boycott of South Africa?  Is he playing dumb?

    And then he goes on to bitch about someone being disrespectful, while using the word retard in the same sentence.  

    Really, really weak, Thom.  
  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 4,869
    What is he right about?  All he did was whine about being called out.  After weeks of silence on this, he lays this turd.  He didn't even address the topic.

    He bitches that others 'think' they have the right to talk down to them, but doesn't care to address Palestinian rights - the basis of the discussion?

    He claims to be educated on the topic, yet says he doesn't understand what the problem is with playing there....did he understand the cultural boycott of South Africa?  Is he playing dumb?

    And then he goes on to bitch about someone being disrespectful, while using the word retard in the same sentence.  

    Really, really weak, Thom.  
    He addressed the topic...you just don't like how. Performing his art for his fans in Israel needs not be seen as an endorsement of any Israeli policy. In fact he specifically calls out Netanyahu in the article. It is not his responsibility to weigh in on this subject and he doesn't have to buy in to the BDS movement to seek positive change. If anything he is clearly making the point that BDS is divisive and shuts down the chances for positive change. It is the BDS movement that is being called out. You are being called out.

    "All of this creates divisive energy. You're not bringing people together. You're not encouraging dialogue or a sense of understanding. Now if you're talking about trying to make things progress in any society, if you create division, what do you get? You get fucking Theresa May. You get [Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin] Netanyahu, you get fucking Trump. That's divisive."

    There, There
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 10,622
    What is he right about?  All he did was whine about being called out.  After weeks of silence on this, he lays this turd.  He didn't even address the topic.

    He bitches that others 'think' they have the right to talk down to them, but doesn't care to address Palestinian rights - the basis of the discussion?

    He claims to be educated on the topic, yet says he doesn't understand what the problem is with playing there....did he understand the cultural boycott of South Africa?  Is he playing dumb?

    And then he goes on to bitch about someone being disrespectful, while using the word retard in the same sentence.  

    Really, really weak, Thom.  
    I was pretty disappointed at his use of that word myself, to be honest. 

    if he addresses the topic, as he said, all it would start is more Thom bashing. There is no right answer here, and he knows that. He just thinks it's disrespectful that fellow artists went to the media to voice their concerns, instead of doing it face to face. Which I can agree with. All Roger was doing here was calling out one of the bigger musical acts of our generation to further his agenda. Why did he single out Radiohead? Hasn't Cornell played there multiple times? Why didn't he call him out?
  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 4,869
    What is he right about?  All he did was whine about being called out.  After weeks of silence on this, he lays this turd.  He didn't even address the topic.

    He bitches that others 'think' they have the right to talk down to them, but doesn't care to address Palestinian rights - the basis of the discussion?

    He claims to be educated on the topic, yet says he doesn't understand what the problem is with playing there....did he understand the cultural boycott of South Africa?  Is he playing dumb?

    And then he goes on to bitch about someone being disrespectful, while using the word retard in the same sentence.  

    Really, really weak, Thom.  
    I was pretty disappointed at his use of that word myself, to be honest. 

    if he addresses the topic, as he said, all it would start is more Thom bashing. There is no right answer here, and he knows that. He just thinks it's disrespectful that fellow artists went to the media to voice their concerns, instead of doing it face to face. Which I can agree with. All Roger was doing here was calling out one of the bigger musical acts of our generation to further his agenda. Why did he single out Radiohead? Hasn't Cornell played there multiple times? Why didn't he call him out?
    The problem with Roger is that this has all become too personal for him. The issue is of course important to him but also the idea that his opinion will carry weight with other artists. If someone like Thom York ignores Waters and plays in Israel then why should any up and coming artist listen to Waters. Artists like Thom bursts Roger's bubble of self-importance...he must exert effort to keep his perceived power mystique intact. 
  • pjhawkspjhawks Posts: 7,965
    edited June 2
    BS44325 said:
    I go back and forth on this, but I'm kinda with him too. I mean, if war crimes is the barometer, no one should play in the US. Ever. 
    or pretty much any country in the world. surely none in Europe so yea take your cheap shot at the US if it makes you feel better 

    and when did playing a show somewhere equate to agreeing with the leadership of said location?  
    Post edited by pjhawks on
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 5,891
    Right, because BDS created the division in Israel. :anguished:
    Bringing Israelis together for a concert in Tel Aviv does nothing to promote peace with Palestine.  My last hope here is that he at least addresses the occupation from the stage.
    'Dialogue and understanding' have been the deceitful calling cards of Israel for decades- particularly since Oslo.  This is what Israel wants the world to believe it is engaging in.  Its actions prove otherwise.
    Thom is repeating Israeli talking points (which could have come from Bibi himself), and ignoring the arguments of the call for BDS. Which means he is ignoring the issue.
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 10,622
    pjhawks said:
    BS44325 said:
    I go back and forth on this, but I'm kinda with him too. I mean, if war crimes is the barometer, no one should play in the US. Ever. 
    or pretty much any country in the world. surely none in Europe so yea take your cheap shot at the US if it makes you feel better 

    and when did playing a show somewhere equate to agreeing with the leadership of said location?  
    I wasn't taking any cheap shot. I was noting the hypocrisy of Roger Waters, who is currently making boatloads of money touring the US. 

    And I would tend to agree. 
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 5,891
    pjhawks said:
    BS44325 said:
    I go back and forth on this, but I'm kinda with him too. I mean, if war crimes is the barometer, no one should play in the US. Ever. 
    or pretty much any country in the world. surely none in Europe so yea take your cheap shot at the US if it makes you feel better 

    and when did playing a show somewhere equate to agreeing with the leadership of said location?  
    Playing Israel and ignoring the call to BDS IS viewed by many an endorsement of Israeli politics.  And not just on the pro-BDS side.  Israeli propagandists repeatedly trot out every artist who performs there as proof of just how normal and cool and euro the country is. Once you make the decision to play there, you have waded into the political minefield that is the occupation of Palestine....whether you like it or not.
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 10,622
    so Roger played there a few years back, didn't he?
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 5,891

    pjhawks said:
    BS44325 said:
    I go back and forth on this, but I'm kinda with him too. I mean, if war crimes is the barometer, no one should play in the US. Ever. 
    or pretty much any country in the world. surely none in Europe so yea take your cheap shot at the US if it makes you feel better 

    and when did playing a show somewhere equate to agreeing with the leadership of said location?  
    I wasn't taking any cheap shot. I was noting the hypocrisy of Roger Waters, who is currently making boatloads of money touring the US. 

    And I would tend to agree. 
    I'm not aware of an ongoing occupation and ethnic cleansing happening within the US, to which an entire desperate population has requested help to overcome via boycot.  If there was one, it would be a separate discussion.  The occupation is a relatively unique situation in the world today, and should be treated as such - it is modern day colonialism...knowing our own colonial history should not be a reason to back away from peaceful protest in support of other oppressed peoples.
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 10,622

    pjhawks said:
    BS44325 said:
    I go back and forth on this, but I'm kinda with him too. I mean, if war crimes is the barometer, no one should play in the US. Ever. 
    or pretty much any country in the world. surely none in Europe so yea take your cheap shot at the US if it makes you feel better 

    and when did playing a show somewhere equate to agreeing with the leadership of said location?  
    I wasn't taking any cheap shot. I was noting the hypocrisy of Roger Waters, who is currently making boatloads of money touring the US. 

    And I would tend to agree. 
    I'm not aware of an ongoing occupation and ethnic cleansing happening within the US, to which an entire desperate population has requested help to overcome via boycot.  If there was one, it would be a separate discussion.  The occupation is a relatively unique situation in the world today, and should be treated as such - it is modern day colonialism...knowing our own colonial history should not be a reason to back away from peaceful protest in support of other oppressed peoples.
    yes, I'm aware it's not the same. thanks. 
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 5,891
    No prob.  So then...why did you bring it up?

  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 5,891
    so Roger played there a few years back, didn't he?
    Yes.  He talks about it here. 
    http://www.haaretz.com/news/1.668705?v=A219AA971B67ECD3327273DFCB11FF56

    Coles notes:  Calls himself naive for allowing it to be booked in the first place.  Since the tickets were already sold, he made changes to his plans for time in Israel once he educated himself on BDS (it was new at the time).  Had a great concert but was left with a bitter taste, knowing he had performed to a segregated audience, who went silent when he suggested Israelis should make peace with their neighbours...and has been an activist since.
  • dignindignin Posts: 5,028
    What is he right about?  All he did was whine about being called out.  After weeks of silence on this, he lays this turd.  He didn't even address the topic.

    He bitches that others 'think' they have the right to talk down to them, but doesn't care to address Palestinian rights - the basis of the discussion?

    He claims to be educated on the topic, yet says he doesn't understand what the problem is with playing there....did he understand the cultural boycott of South Africa?  Is he playing dumb?

    And then he goes on to bitch about someone being disrespectful, while using the word retard in the same sentence.  

    Really, really weak, Thom.  
    I agree. Pretty weak shit.
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 5,891
    edited June 3
    What is he right about?  All he did was whine about being called out.  After weeks of silence on this, he lays this turd.  He didn't even address the topic.

    He bitches that others 'think' they have the right to talk down to them, but doesn't care to address Palestinian rights - the basis of the discussion?

    He claims to be educated on the topic, yet says he doesn't understand what the problem is with playing there....did he understand the cultural boycott of South Africa?  Is he playing dumb?

    And then he goes on to bitch about someone being disrespectful, while using the word retard in the same sentence.  

    Really, really weak, Thom.  
    I was pretty disappointed at his use of that word myself, to be honest. 

    if he addresses the topic, as he said, all it would start is more Thom bashing. There is no right answer here, and he knows that. He just thinks it's disrespectful that fellow artists went to the media to voice their concerns, instead of doing it face to face. Which I can agree with. All Roger was doing here was calling out one of the bigger musical acts of our generation to further his agenda. Why did he single out Radiohead? Hasn't Cornell played there multiple times? Why didn't he call him out?
    Missed this post.
    youre right - no matter what you do or say on this topic, you will be bashed....

    Waters def doesn't single anyone out - he has released open letters to most major artists booked in Israel for years. Not sure if he's ever spoken to or about CC, and I'm not sure why, if he hasn't.

     A private call instead of a public letter might have been in order if they were friends - sounds like they don't know each other. Thom says he is informed on this topic....and they booked the show anyway...so what would be said?  It sounds like Yorke just wanted to plead his case in private.  Maybe say 'the guitarist made me do it' or something.  :lol:  Waters furthering his agenda publicly is something you and I have been doing here for years. Does Roger Waters owe it to Thom to hear him out on his decision as some kind of rock star courtesy?  If there is such a thing, I'm not sure roger waters owes anything to anyone. 

    And don't forget that it's not just waters making these calls...he is just the most visible and outspoken of the musicians.
  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 4,869
    pjhawks said:
    BS44325 said:
    I go back and forth on this, but I'm kinda with him too. I mean, if war crimes is the barometer, no one should play in the US. Ever. 
    or pretty much any country in the world. surely none in Europe so yea take your cheap shot at the US if it makes you feel better 

    and when did playing a show somewhere equate to agreeing with the leadership of said location?  
    Playing Israel and ignoring the call to BDS IS viewed by many an endorsement of Israeli politics.  And not just on the pro-BDS side.  Israeli propagandists repeatedly trot out every artist who performs there as proof of just how normal and cool and euro the country is. Once you make the decision to play there, you have waded into the political minefield that is the occupation of Palestine....whether you like it or not.
    The country is normal and cool and euro. They don't need to "trot out" artists to prove it. The artists go there because they know it is true. 


  • riley540riley540 Bellingham WAPosts: 568
    Roger Waters is so annoying
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 5,891
    Sounds like Thom is full of shit about Waters not attempting to contact him.

    Waters via Rolling Stone:

    I read Thom Yorke's interview in Rolling Stone. It needs a reply as it doesn't tell the whole story. 

    On February 12th, hoping to start a dialogue, I sent an email expressing my concern about Radiohead crossing the BDS picket line to perform in Israel. A few hours later, Thom replied. He was angry. He had misinterpreted my attempt to start a conversation as a threat. So I tried again.

    "Hey Thom,

    I'm sorry. My letter wasn't meant to be confrontational. I was reaching out to see if we could have the conversation that you talk about in your reply. Can we? 

    Love, R."

    I didn't hear back. So silence prevailed for three weeks until March 4th when I sent a long heartfelt entreaty to Thom asking him again to talk. 

    In Thom's interview with Andy Greene of Rolling Stone, in referring to Ken Loach and me, he says, "It's deeply distressing that they choose to, rather than engage with us personally, throw shit at us in public." 

    That is not true, Thom. I have made every effort to engage with you personally, and would still like to have the conversation. 

    "Not to talk is not an option." 

    Today is the 50th anniversary of the occupation of Palestine by Israel. Fifty years living under military occupation. Fifty years for a people with no civil rights. Fifty years of no recourse to the law. Fifty years of apartheid.

    The BDS picket line exists to shine a light on the predicament of the occupied people of Palestine, both in Palestine and those displaced abroad, and to promote equal civil rights for all the people living between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea no matter what their nationality, race or religion. All human life is sacred, every child is our child, exceptionalism is always our enemy. There is no Us or Them, only Us. 

    Restiamo umani.

    Love,

    Roger Waters

  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 10,622
    Sounds like Thom is full of shit about Waters not attempting to contact him.

    Waters via Rolling Stone:

    I read Thom Yorke's interview in Rolling Stone. It needs a reply as it doesn't tell the whole story. 

    On February 12th, hoping to start a dialogue, I sent an email expressing my concern about Radiohead crossing the BDS picket line to perform in Israel. A few hours later, Thom replied. He was angry. He had misinterpreted my attempt to start a conversation as a threat. So I tried again.

    "Hey Thom,

    I'm sorry. My letter wasn't meant to be confrontational. I was reaching out to see if we could have the conversation that you talk about in your reply. Can we? 

    Love, R."

    I didn't hear back. So silence prevailed for three weeks until March 4th when I sent a long heartfelt entreaty to Thom asking him again to talk. 

    In Thom's interview with Andy Greene of Rolling Stone, in referring to Ken Loach and me, he says, "It's deeply distressing that they choose to, rather than engage with us personally, throw shit at us in public." 

    That is not true, Thom. I have made every effort to engage with you personally, and would still like to have the conversation. 

    "Not to talk is not an option." 

    Today is the 50th anniversary of the occupation of Palestine by Israel. Fifty years living under military occupation. Fifty years for a people with no civil rights. Fifty years of no recourse to the law. Fifty years of apartheid.

    The BDS picket line exists to shine a light on the predicament of the occupied people of Palestine, both in Palestine and those displaced abroad, and to promote equal civil rights for all the people living between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea no matter what their nationality, race or religion. All human life is sacred, every child is our child, exceptionalism is always our enemy. There is no Us or Them, only Us. 

    Restiamo umani.

    Love,

    Roger Waters

    before we say either party is full of shit, maybe wait for Thom's response. I also find it curious that the first correspondence that Roger says he sent Thom, he provides zero content, but he quotes from the second email he sent him. Curious. 
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 5,891
    Sounds like Thom is full of shit about Waters not attempting to contact him.

    Waters via Rolling Stone:

    I read Thom Yorke's interview in Rolling Stone. It needs a reply as it doesn't tell the whole story. 

    On February 12th, hoping to start a dialogue, I sent an email expressing my concern about Radiohead crossing the BDS picket line to perform in Israel. A few hours later, Thom replied. He was angry. He had misinterpreted my attempt to start a conversation as a threat. So I tried again.

    "Hey Thom,

    I'm sorry. My letter wasn't meant to be confrontational. I was reaching out to see if we could have the conversation that you talk about in your reply. Can we? 

    Love, R."

    I didn't hear back. So silence prevailed for three weeks until March 4th when I sent a long heartfelt entreaty to Thom asking him again to talk. 

    In Thom's interview with Andy Greene of Rolling Stone, in referring to Ken Loach and me, he says, "It's deeply distressing that they choose to, rather than engage with us personally, throw shit at us in public." 

    That is not true, Thom. I have made every effort to engage with you personally, and would still like to have the conversation. 

    "Not to talk is not an option." 

    Today is the 50th anniversary of the occupation of Palestine by Israel. Fifty years living under military occupation. Fifty years for a people with no civil rights. Fifty years of no recourse to the law. Fifty years of apartheid.

    The BDS picket line exists to shine a light on the predicament of the occupied people of Palestine, both in Palestine and those displaced abroad, and to promote equal civil rights for all the people living between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea no matter what their nationality, race or religion. All human life is sacred, every child is our child, exceptionalism is always our enemy. There is no Us or Them, only Us. 

    Restiamo umani.

    Love,

    Roger Waters

    before we say either party is full of shit, maybe wait for Thom's response. I also find it curious that the first correspondence that Roger says he sent Thom, he provides zero content, but he quotes from the second email he sent him. Curious. 
    Ya I never caught on to the fact he didn't note the first correspondence.  I'd be curious to read it.  If Thom took it as a threat, I'd imagine that Waters probably mentioned issuing an open letter requesting they not play.  Just a guess.
    As for Thom being full of shit...he said Waters didn't try to engage him personally...this was the crux of his whining (as you acknowledged).  I believe Waters when he says that he did - posting his second letter (even if he didn't post the first), and mentioning that Thom replied is enough 'proof' for me.  Thom can reply to that, but unless he claims that Waters is also lying outright and made up the letter and response,  I think it's fair to assume that Thom is full of shit.  Time may tell...but something tells me Thom won't address this again anytime soon.
  • lolobugglolobugg BLUE RDGE MTNSPosts: 5,861
    Thom Yorke ain't half the man he used to be...
    livefootsteps.org/user/?usr=446
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    2004- Asheville, NC (hometown show)
    2006- Cincinnati, OH
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    2009- Chicago, IL x 2 / Ed Ved- Atlanta, GA x 2
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    2011- Alpine Valley, WI (PJ20) x 2 / Ed Ved- Chicago, IL
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    2016- Greenville, SC: Hampton, VA: Raleigh, NC: Columbia, SC: Lexington, KY: Philly, PA 2: (Wrigley) Chicago, IL x 2 (holy shit): Temple of the Dog- Philly, PA
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 10,622
    Sounds like Thom is full of shit about Waters not attempting to contact him.

    Waters via Rolling Stone:

    I read Thom Yorke's interview in Rolling Stone. It needs a reply as it doesn't tell the whole story. 

    On February 12th, hoping to start a dialogue, I sent an email expressing my concern about Radiohead crossing the BDS picket line to perform in Israel. A few hours later, Thom replied. He was angry. He had misinterpreted my attempt to start a conversation as a threat. So I tried again.

    "Hey Thom,

    I'm sorry. My letter wasn't meant to be confrontational. I was reaching out to see if we could have the conversation that you talk about in your reply. Can we? 

    Love, R."

    I didn't hear back. So silence prevailed for three weeks until March 4th when I sent a long heartfelt entreaty to Thom asking him again to talk. 

    In Thom's interview with Andy Greene of Rolling Stone, in referring to Ken Loach and me, he says, "It's deeply distressing that they choose to, rather than engage with us personally, throw shit at us in public." 

    That is not true, Thom. I have made every effort to engage with you personally, and would still like to have the conversation. 

    "Not to talk is not an option." 

    Today is the 50th anniversary of the occupation of Palestine by Israel. Fifty years living under military occupation. Fifty years for a people with no civil rights. Fifty years of no recourse to the law. Fifty years of apartheid.

    The BDS picket line exists to shine a light on the predicament of the occupied people of Palestine, both in Palestine and those displaced abroad, and to promote equal civil rights for all the people living between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea no matter what their nationality, race or religion. All human life is sacred, every child is our child, exceptionalism is always our enemy. There is no Us or Them, only Us. 

    Restiamo umani.

    Love,

    Roger Waters

    before we say either party is full of shit, maybe wait for Thom's response. I also find it curious that the first correspondence that Roger says he sent Thom, he provides zero content, but he quotes from the second email he sent him. Curious. 
    Ya I never caught on to the fact he didn't note the first correspondence.  I'd be curious to read it.  If Thom took it as a threat, I'd imagine that Waters probably mentioned issuing an open letter requesting they not play.  Just a guess.
    As for Thom being full of shit...he said Waters didn't try to engage him personally...this was the crux of his whining (as you acknowledged).  I believe Waters when he says that he did - posting his second letter (even if he didn't post the first), and mentioning that Thom replied is enough 'proof' for me.  Thom can reply to that, but unless he claims that Waters is also lying outright and made up the letter and response,  I think it's fair to assume that Thom is full of shit.  Time may tell...but something tells me Thom won't address this again anytime soon.
    I just know from all the mudslinging that Roger did with David Gilmour over the years, that sometimes what he says is the truth needs to be taken with a grain. 
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 16,621
    Radiohead should be called out they could of avoided all the turmoil just by doing a show in Palestine too ! This situation can only be looked at if you play Israel you stand with them ...
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
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