Immigration

Tim Simmons said:

...featuring (certainly) undertrained and (potentially) under-qualified individuals. Its a toxic mix. 

Get_Right said:

Go Beavers said:

Get_Right said:

Gern Blansten said:

Get_Right said:

tbergs said:

Get_Right said:

Go Beavers said:

Get_Right said:

Go Beavers said:

Get_Right said:

Go Beavers said:

Get_Right said:

Go Beavers said:

Get_Right said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Get_Right said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Get_Right said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Get_Right said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Get_Right said:

Go Beavers said:

Get_Right said:

Go Beavers said:

Get_Right said:

PJ_Soul said:

Get_Right said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

Get_Right said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

Get_Right said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

first, to gimme's point, the comparison is just. second, at this point, I'm not overly concerned with offending. we're so far past that point it's not even fucking funny. 

Then simply keep your criticism objective based on the current state. What is happening in our country may anger you but it is not Nazi Germany. It is ok to say it is not legal, or I object to the deployment of special forces, ICE, or the National Guard to address immigration issues or civil unrest. But Trump is not deploying death squads. 

again the gestapo and the einsatzgruppen and the ss are all different things.

maybe read about those things and then comment.

I have read more about it than you could ever guess. This is not nazi Germany and nothing you or Halifax can say will convince me otherwise. 

just curious. what books have you read on the nazis?

Start with the Rise and Fall. Or the Nuremberg trials. And many films.

The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich very clearly demonstrates the many similarities between Hitler and Trump's tactics, not to mention the similarities between the Brown shirts and the creation of the SS and ICE. I'm really not sure how you can read that and then say there aren't clear parallels. You know that making important comparisons isn't the same as saying it's literally the same thing, right? I'm pretty sure that everyone here already knows that America in 2025 isn't Nazi Germany, lol.  

I know this is not a comparative literature or history class. I have an open mind, but there is no argument that will convince me that the current ICE and immigration crackdown is anything close to the gestapo and Nazi Germany. That is hyperbole. The ONLY similarity is that ICE is a federal unit with a specific mission. But that mission is not murder. The gestapo rounded up jews so they could be murdered. ICE is not doing that by any stretch of the imagination no matter how offended you might be with the way people are being treated.

If you think that’s the only similarity, then you’re not coming at it with an open mind. I’d suggest you ask yourself what would happen if you pointed out the similarities. 

I understand the points, and bad things are happening for sure, but comparing the ICE crackdown to one of the greatest atrocities in modern history is a huge disconnect. People are not being murdered. Violation of whatever individual rights may apply is not murder. Nazis murdered people. ICE, while certainly engaging in questionable tactics, is not a death squad.

And people can do a comparison of the mass
psychology around what’s happening currently to 1930s Germany without agreeing that the end result is/will be the same. The scapegoating of ethnic groups, the funneling of power to a single leader, and the forced compliance within the political party in power are just naming a few. 

I understand the arguments very well and looking at it from an intellectual, theoretical, or historical perspective. Those are talking points and talking is healthy. But I disagree with the comparison to the Nazis as a matter of factual reality. They are not rounding up people and sending them to death camps. If anything, perhaps a more appropriate comparison would be to the Japanese internment camps, although that occured during war time. Many of them were US citizens.

well, you keep ignoring that no one is saying they are doing that. They are doing what they did in the early years prior to the war. THAT is the comparison I'm making. 

Then all law enforcement initiatives are comparable? Drug stings? Removing homeless encampments? Random speed traps? Gang enforcement? Quality of life violations? Sorry not even close.

EDIT: How about post 9/11 airport security? Complete liberty to search and seize. 

* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.

I can’t believe 1) you’re asking this question and 2) it has to be explained to you: the homeland security act was legislation passed by elected representatives in response to a major terrorist attack, with debate, carve outs, amendments and an opportunity, as short as it was, for the citizenry to express support or not. It ultimately passed and became law. Shrub, Rummy and Darth Cheney didn’t Willy nilly circumvent the law and establish all that was wrought on their own.

In the other lame examples you gave, city councils, legislators and the public are heard, hearings are held, ordinances and laws are formulated and votes are taken, usually after the citizens chime in on the pros/cons, support or not of the “police” action. You think governors, mayors, police chiefs just decide on a whim to clear out homeless encampments, or start setting up speed traps on their own?

There are laws and ordinances that govern “drug stings” and “quality of life” violations.

Fucking A are we fucked with this kind of thinking. Because they “can” and “do”. It’s way toooo late.

And to your edit, you consent to and acknowledge upon entering an airport or when buying a ticket to your person and belongings being searched, and that violations may lead to detainment, criminal charges and penalties and missing your flight. FFS. What legal authority does ICE have to kick in the door and enter the dwelling of a US citizen? Guess you haven’t read the constitution and the 4th Amendment, eh?

You are wrong and uniformed. It does not take much for law enforcement to find a reason. That is not new. I guess there are no laws, policies, and ordinances that govern immigration enforcement right? There are no legal precedents. It is just something you do not like. And there is a HUGE gap between the text of the constitution and how it is interpreted, executed on a daily basis, and decided in real life.  Just go watch a traffic stop video and talk to me about the 4th amendment. Remember who you are talking with. I know a bit about this stuff.

* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.

And yet you gave shitty examples. Excuse me, did I dream about the homeland security act? You asked about airport searches and seizures and tried to compare that with what ICE is doing.

So, if you “know a bit about this stuff”,  cite the law that allows ICE to enter the private dwelling of a US citizen and under what legal conditions they may do so. I won’t wait for a reply, just expect more pivots and because they “can” and “do” type responses.

It is not just ICE. A whiff of illegal activity and law enforcement can enter a private dwelling. My examples are shitty? That is reality. There is no written law, only precedents that are complex. It has evolved based on court decisions. It would take a semester or more of law school class to go through it. It is not clear cut as you might think. We got an anonymous tip that drugs were being sold, or that you are housing illegal immigrants. I will agree it has gotten worse under the current regime. But if you think a warrant is needed in every situation you are just dead wrong. You are in denial if you think it is a challenge for law enforcement to enter private property based on the constitution. 

* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.

Because they “can” and “do”. You still can’t cite the law. Nice pivot. And you never did cite the law or CFR that created ICE and governs their operations. Again, debated, heard, legislation crafted, passed. Democracy.

A lawless nation and some are fine with it and will justify it with “they ‘can’ and ‘do’”.

I do not pretend to be a criminal or an immigration lawyer. But in many areas of the law there is no explicit CFR, USC or even agency policies that set forth what is considered legal as far as process goes. I am not pivoting but explaining reality. But there is clear USC authority for ICE and CBP to enforce immigration laws. Keep debating with me. You may not like what is happening, but if you fall into the web, you may have to wait for your day in court. 

Your angle seems to be that cops have always violated the Constitution, therefore what’s happening with ice currently can’t be seen as a parallel to nazi Germany. But now factor in the Kavanaugh stop decision, where he said location, job, and ethnicity can reasonable suspicion to be detained. It then validates ice violating the Constitution and being able to target racial minorities and ethnic groups, not unlike…

No my angle is that the text of the constitution can not always equate with law enforcement procedures. Remind me which ethnic groups may be committing immigration violations? Could be China. Could be Mexico. Could be Somalia. Could be Canadians. Could be Australians. No matter how much people are not pleased with the increased enforcement, it is not the same as Jews being targeted and sent to death camps. Not by a long stretch. 

As an example, in your earlier reference about a traffic stop, the Constitution does equate with procedures. 4th Amendment means cops need a warrant or probable cause to search your trunk. You may move the goalposts and say that they can fabricate probable cause, but that doesn’t change the point of cops following the Constitution. Now Kavanaugh says you can use ethnicity as part of detaining someone, and being Jewish is an ethnicity, so…

A refusal to provide ID, being belligerent, or not getting out of a vehicle can trigger an arrest and a search. No warrant required. It does not take much. I have never understood why being Jewish is treated as an ethnicity. It is a religion.

Being Jewish is a religion and considered an ethnicity because of the culture values and traditions associated with it. You’ll often hear Jews who don’t practice much of the religion side  say they’re culturally Jewish. 

You don’t need to provide ID to an ice agent just because they’re asking. I think you know this but are moving the goalposts again. Prior to being asked to get out of the vehicle, they need probable cause to stop you. You also know this is required of local PD, so why you’re acting like this isn’t a requirement of ice, I don’t know. 

You are just wrong. A request for ID is a lawful order. Refuse and then it might not go well. I am not moving goalposts. If you encounter a federal agent or a law enforcement officer be cooperative and most of the time it will work out in your favor. Push back and it might not go so well. There is nothing to gain by standing your ground. "You have no right to search me or my vehicle." Yeah that is simply not true.

Didn’t you say you have experience in this area? No one is obligated to produce ID at any random time law enforcement asks. There is something to gain by exercising your rights in a free society and I don’t think that needs elaboration. And scotus ruled on the issue of probable cause being required for vehicle searches. Known as the Carroll Doctrine. 

Yes. And you are just wrong. 100% percent if you refuse to provide ID you may end up in the back of a police car. Why wouldn't you provide it? And probable cause is not the standard. It is reasonable suspicion. And that is a much lower standard.

ICE has no legal right to ask for the ID of a US Citizen. That's fact. They ask me, I don't have to give it. They also can't make traffic stops or enforce anything besides immigration laws. Now, they've made up a lot of bullshitb to push their "impeding" narrative, but if you're paying attention, they just fuck with the US citizens and make them sit in holding for 8 - 10 hours before releasing because they've got jack shit for charges and they know it. They just keep violating 4th amendment rights because they are unleashed dogs with no moral compass and no supervisors holding them to account. Come on over to MN and see first hand what this shit looks like. Commandos lawlessly roaming the streets stopping anyone who's brown, black or has an accent and then roughing up and detaining anyone who's white that tries to record them or track their activity. It's the most obvious example of fascism/authoritarianism anyone has seen since WWII, but you do you and bury your head some more. 

Yes they do. And yes you do. How do they verify you are a citizen? Keep living in a dreamworld of hypotheticals and constitutional theory. My head is not buried but speaks of reality. Provide your ID and get on with your day. Something might not be right if you even find yourself in one of these situations. Everything is on body cams. Reality is that we are living in a time of increased and aggressive immigration enforcement. That does not mean it is necessarily unlawful. 

what if I don't have my ID? Am I allowed to leave my home, go for a walk, etc., without an ID? It sure seems like my constitutional rights would forbid an authority from demanding ID from me. 

I get it if driving as that requires a license. Walking doesn't.

Nope. Name, date of birth, and SS number to verify ID. You do not get to just walk if requested, although there is some discretion. Why wouldn't you provide that information? A bigger question is why would you even find yourself in a situation where you are being confronted? 

Yes, you do just get to keep walking. And you wouldn’t provide it because you’re not goung to participate and validate the abuse of power. 

Nope. Good luck with that strategy. If the officer says you are not free to leave you will have a problem. They have a right to ID you. And that is not a search. Of course you do not usually end up in that situation unless something got their attention or they were called by a third party. It is the first thing they ask for. Object and the situation will likely escalate. How many videos have you seen of people screaming about the 4th amendment and still getting thrown the back of a police car? Obstruction of justice.

*The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.

Pages 67 through 72 are also illuminating. But fuck the constitution because they “can” and “do”.

What a country.

mickeyrat said:

The document used to justify the violent entry into a Minneapolis home was not signed by a judge: https://reason.pub/4bapSoh

josevolution said:

Get_Right said:

tbergs said:

Get_Right said:

Go Beavers said:

Get_Right said:

Go Beavers said:

Get_Right said:

Go Beavers said:

Get_Right said:

Go Beavers said:

Get_Right said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Get_Right said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Get_Right said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Get_Right said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Get_Right said:

Go Beavers said:

Get_Right said:

Go Beavers said:

Get_Right said:

PJ_Soul said:

Get_Right said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

Get_Right said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

Get_Right said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

first, to gimme's point, the comparison is just. second, at this point, I'm not overly concerned with offending. we're so far past that point it's not even fucking funny. 

Then simply keep your criticism objective based on the current state. What is happening in our country may anger you but it is not Nazi Germany. It is ok to say it is not legal, or I object to the deployment of special forces, ICE, or the National Guard to address immigration issues or civil unrest. But Trump is not deploying death squads. 

again the gestapo and the einsatzgruppen and the ss are all different things.

maybe read about those things and then comment.

I have read more about it than you could ever guess. This is not nazi Germany and nothing you or Halifax can say will convince me otherwise. 

just curious. what books have you read on the nazis?

Start with the Rise and Fall. Or the Nuremberg trials. And many films.

The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich very clearly demonstrates the many similarities between Hitler and Trump's tactics, not to mention the similarities between the Brown shirts and the creation of the SS and ICE. I'm really not sure how you can read that and then say there aren't clear parallels. You know that making important comparisons isn't the same as saying it's literally the same thing, right? I'm pretty sure that everyone here already knows that America in 2025 isn't Nazi Germany, lol.  

I know this is not a comparative literature or history class. I have an open mind, but there is no argument that will convince me that the current ICE and immigration crackdown is anything close to the gestapo and Nazi Germany. That is hyperbole. The ONLY similarity is that ICE is a federal unit with a specific mission. But that mission is not murder. The gestapo rounded up jews so they could be murdered. ICE is not doing that by any stretch of the imagination no matter how offended you might be with the way people are being treated.

If you think that’s the only similarity, then you’re not coming at it with an open mind. I’d suggest you ask yourself what would happen if you pointed out the similarities. 

I understand the points, and bad things are happening for sure, but comparing the ICE crackdown to one of the greatest atrocities in modern history is a huge disconnect. People are not being murdered. Violation of whatever individual rights may apply is not murder. Nazis murdered people. ICE, while certainly engaging in questionable tactics, is not a death squad.

And people can do a comparison of the mass
psychology around what’s happening currently to 1930s Germany without agreeing that the end result is/will be the same. The scapegoating of ethnic groups, the funneling of power to a single leader, and the forced compliance within the political party in power are just naming a few. 

I understand the arguments very well and looking at it from an intellectual, theoretical, or historical perspective. Those are talking points and talking is healthy. But I disagree with the comparison to the Nazis as a matter of factual reality. They are not rounding up people and sending them to death camps. If anything, perhaps a more appropriate comparison would be to the Japanese internment camps, although that occured during war time. Many of them were US citizens.

well, you keep ignoring that no one is saying they are doing that. They are doing what they did in the early years prior to the war. THAT is the comparison I'm making. 

Then all law enforcement initiatives are comparable? Drug stings? Removing homeless encampments? Random speed traps? Gang enforcement? Quality of life violations? Sorry not even close.

EDIT: How about post 9/11 airport security? Complete liberty to search and seize. 

* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.

I can’t believe 1) you’re asking this question and 2) it has to be explained to you: the homeland security act was legislation passed by elected representatives in response to a major terrorist attack, with debate, carve outs, amendments and an opportunity, as short as it was, for the citizenry to express support or not. It ultimately passed and became law. Shrub, Rummy and Darth Cheney didn’t Willy nilly circumvent the law and establish all that was wrought on their own.

In the other lame examples you gave, city councils, legislators and the public are heard, hearings are held, ordinances and laws are formulated and votes are taken, usually after the citizens chime in on the pros/cons, support or not of the “police” action. You think governors, mayors, police chiefs just decide on a whim to clear out homeless encampments, or start setting up speed traps on their own?

There are laws and ordinances that govern “drug stings” and “quality of life” violations.

Fucking A are we fucked with this kind of thinking. Because they “can” and “do”. It’s way toooo late.

And to your edit, you consent to and acknowledge upon entering an airport or when buying a ticket to your person and belongings being searched, and that violations may lead to detainment, criminal charges and penalties and missing your flight. FFS. What legal authority does ICE have to kick in the door and enter the dwelling of a US citizen? Guess you haven’t read the constitution and the 4th Amendment, eh?

You are wrong and uniformed. It does not take much for law enforcement to find a reason. That is not new. I guess there are no laws, policies, and ordinances that govern immigration enforcement right? There are no legal precedents. It is just something you do not like. And there is a HUGE gap between the text of the constitution and how it is interpreted, executed on a daily basis, and decided in real life.  Just go watch a traffic stop video and talk to me about the 4th amendment. Remember who you are talking with. I know a bit about this stuff.

* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.

And yet you gave shitty examples. Excuse me, did I dream about the homeland security act? You asked about airport searches and seizures and tried to compare that with what ICE is doing.

So, if you “know a bit about this stuff”,  cite the law that allows ICE to enter the private dwelling of a US citizen and under what legal conditions they may do so. I won’t wait for a reply, just expect more pivots and because they “can” and “do” type responses.

It is not just ICE. A whiff of illegal activity and law enforcement can enter a private dwelling. My examples are shitty? That is reality. There is no written law, only precedents that are complex. It has evolved based on court decisions. It would take a semester or more of law school class to go through it. It is not clear cut as you might think. We got an anonymous tip that drugs were being sold, or that you are housing illegal immigrants. I will agree it has gotten worse under the current regime. But if you think a warrant is needed in every situation you are just dead wrong. You are in denial if you think it is a challenge for law enforcement to enter private property based on the constitution. 

* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.

Because they “can” and “do”. You still can’t cite the law. Nice pivot. And you never did cite the law or CFR that created ICE and governs their operations. Again, debated, heard, legislation crafted, passed. Democracy.

A lawless nation and some are fine with it and will justify it with “they ‘can’ and ‘do’”.

I do not pretend to be a criminal or an immigration lawyer. But in many areas of the law there is no explicit CFR, USC or even agency policies that set forth what is considered legal as far as process goes. I am not pivoting but explaining reality. But there is clear USC authority for ICE and CBP to enforce immigration laws. Keep debating with me. You may not like what is happening, but if you fall into the web, you may have to wait for your day in court. 

Your angle seems to be that cops have always violated the Constitution, therefore what’s happening with ice currently can’t be seen as a parallel to nazi Germany. But now factor in the Kavanaugh stop decision, where he said location, job, and ethnicity can reasonable suspicion to be detained. It then validates ice violating the Constitution and being able to target racial minorities and ethnic groups, not unlike…

No my angle is that the text of the constitution can not always equate with law enforcement procedures. Remind me which ethnic groups may be committing immigration violations? Could be China. Could be Mexico. Could be Somalia. Could be Canadians. Could be Australians. No matter how much people are not pleased with the increased enforcement, it is not the same as Jews being targeted and sent to death camps. Not by a long stretch. 

As an example, in your earlier reference about a traffic stop, the Constitution does equate with procedures. 4th Amendment means cops need a warrant or probable cause to search your trunk. You may move the goalposts and say that they can fabricate probable cause, but that doesn’t change the point of cops following the Constitution. Now Kavanaugh says you can use ethnicity as part of detaining someone, and being Jewish is an ethnicity, so…

A refusal to provide ID, being belligerent, or not getting out of a vehicle can trigger an arrest and a search. No warrant required. It does not take much. I have never understood why being Jewish is treated as an ethnicity. It is a religion.

Being Jewish is a religion and considered an ethnicity because of the culture values and traditions associated with it. You’ll often hear Jews who don’t practice much of the religion side  say they’re culturally Jewish. 

You don’t need to provide ID to an ice agent just because they’re asking. I think you know this but are moving the goalposts again. Prior to being asked to get out of the vehicle, they need probable cause to stop you. You also know this is required of local PD, so why you’re acting like this isn’t a requirement of ice, I don’t know. 

You are just wrong. A request for ID is a lawful order. Refuse and then it might not go well. I am not moving goalposts. If you encounter a federal agent or a law enforcement officer be cooperative and most of the time it will work out in your favor. Push back and it might not go so well. There is nothing to gain by standing your ground. "You have no right to search me or my vehicle." Yeah that is simply not true.

Didn’t you say you have experience in this area? No one is obligated to produce ID at any random time law enforcement asks. There is something to gain by exercising your rights in a free society and I don’t think that needs elaboration. And scotus ruled on the issue of probable cause being required for vehicle searches. Known as the Carroll Doctrine. 

Yes. And you are just wrong. 100% percent if you refuse to provide ID you may end up in the back of a police car. Why wouldn't you provide it? And probable cause is not the standard. It is reasonable suspicion. And that is a much lower standard.

ICE has no legal right to ask for the ID of a US Citizen. That's fact. They ask me, I don't have to give it. They also can't make traffic stops or enforce anything besides immigration laws. Now, they've made up a lot of bullshitb to push their "impeding" narrative, but if you're paying attention, they just fuck with the US citizens and make them sit in holding for 8 - 10 hours before releasing because they've got jack shit for charges and they know it. They just keep violating 4th amendment rights because they are unleashed dogs with no moral compass and no supervisors holding them to account. Come on over to MN and see first hand what this shit looks like. Commandos lawlessly roaming the streets stopping anyone who's brown, black or has an accent and then roughing up and detaining anyone who's white that tries to record them or track their activity. It's the most obvious example of fascism/authoritarianism anyone has seen since WWII, but you do you and bury your head some more. 

Yes they do. And yes you do. How do they verify you are a citizen? Keep living in a dreamworld of hypotheticals and constitutional theory. My head is not buried but speaks of reality. Provide your ID and get on with your day. Something might not be right if you even find yourself in one of these situations. Everything is on body cams. Reality is that we are living in a time of increased and aggressive immigration enforcement. That does not mean it is necessarily unlawful. 

This judge doesn’t agree 
Judge orders federal agents cannot retaliate against, arrest or detain peaceful protesters in Minnesota operation.  https://cnn.it/3Zi5p9G
https://share.google/mz2WP6gcZZ3JbGk48

mace1229 said:

brianlux said:

Considering how many protests there have been in so many places all across this country, and how many millions of millions of people have protested against this administration, and how peaceful most have been, it would be hugely insincere if anyone were to infer that there has been a lot of violent protesting.  Obviously, that is far from true.  

I for one am going to keep the focus where it belongs.

I don't think anyone disagrees with that. 99% of the protestors are peaceful.
The debate was when or if you have to comply with ICE. If you're one of the few not peacefully protesting and are obstructing, then they do have authority over the situation. But I don't think anyone was saying most people are not peaceful about it.