DarthMaeglin said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

DarthMaeglin said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

DarthMaeglin said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

DarthMaeglin said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

DarthMaeglin said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

DarthMaeglin said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

DarthMaeglin said:

Tim Simmons said:

It should be clear by now. Conservative and bigots plan is 1% protecting girls/women*, 99% ostracizing, marginalizing, othering and hopefully eliminating Trans people. 



*which will go to 0% once this plan is accomplished 

It’s always fun popping in here to see what I’m supposed to believe as a Conservative and contrast it with my actual beliefs.

There’s a difference between Canadian conservative ideology and views and US conservative ideology and views, in case you haven’t noticed.

The post to which I replied didn’t make any distinction, making Conservatives and bigots walk hand-in-hand.

Just as there’s a spectrum of “progressive” values, it’s no different on the other side.

However, the response was to my post of COOTWH’s actions, the climate of fear that US conservatives have fostered against the trans community in the US and a family from Maine deciding to leave the US. Context matters. They’re capable of defending their post so I’ll stop here.

So, as a Canadian conservative, what are your thoughts on the trans community and the subject of the title? Canada has had gay marriage since the 80’s, I believe, being the first to recognize it at a federal level and codify it as a basic right, correct? What is the Canadian conservative view of the trans community? I think it’s, meh , whatever and no big deal (not being dismissive, just doesn’t get folks so riled up) but I may be wrong. It may be different as well between provinces, Alberta/BC, but again, I’m not sure.

20-25% of religious Americans are evangelical and they are for sure, if conservative, against anything trans. Add in the conservative Catholics, Anglicans, Muslim and Jewish faiths and you can understand why trans folks in the US are fearful. I don’t get the same sense of Canada in that way.

Put simply I personally have no issues with trans people outside of the matter of sports. However even some family members are more in line with Tim’s blanket statement. So it’s a spectrum.

Here in Canada it’s the so-called “progressive” parties that don’t allow for freedom of thought and belief (try taking an anti-trans position in the Liberals or NDP. Dear Justin’s first act as party leader was to kick out anyone that disputed his chosen position on abortion, for example.) unfortunately.

I believe this is the post you’re requesting I respond to.

while “you personally”, as a conservative have no issue with the trans community, what is the policy position of PP’s Conservative Party? Are they as open as you?

”Dont allow for ‘freedom of thought and belief’.” How is that manifested? Seems like a blanket statement and there’d have to be more than a one off to make it true, yes? From what I see and know, I don’t see liberals being silenced and if they are, they align/identify/switch to NDP or go Green. But what do I know? Whereas with conservatives, there may not be that space within the Conservative Party, more monolithic? and if you want an alternative, it’s fringe or Quebecois?

If my assumptions are correct, where in that context do you fall? And where do the conservative parties stand on trans rights?

As far as I know the Conservative Party of Canada supports people transitioning as adults but being more cautious when it comes to minors, a stance I agree with, but I pay attention to the facts others consider inconvenient, like the reported cases of people regretting transitioning (which implies they never should have been approved in the first place).

In short, I agree with the CPC’s stance on the issue, one that I consider balanced with an eye to safeguarding our youth. Kind of like the line “Some words when spoken/Can’t be taken back” some actions have lasting, even permanent effects that aren’t desirable.

As for how the other parties tolerate dissent from within their own ranks, I gave a clear, documented case from our Liberal Party.

Sounds like COOTWH’s repub party and its hypocrisy. Conservatives crow about individual rights and freedoms except the ones they don’t like. As for regrets, less than 1% of youth in Canada who transition have regrets. So deny 99% of youth because you have to “protect” less than 1%. Fuzzy math. Also, agree that government should be between the child, their parents or guardian and their health care provider. It’s not like kids can walk into a doctor’s office and demand and receive transition care.

Same for a woman’s right to choose. An individual right to choose but because conservatives disagree, screw your individual rights and freedoms. How do you square those?

Canada’s conservatives seem very aligned with COOTWHism and the current US repub party on those two issues at least.

So what was your take on my personal views? Could it maybe be that you and I aren’t that far apart on this issue?

You said you were aligned with CPC’s position, which I disagree with. We’re very far apart on this issue.

I give up, AMT should be renamed “Never The Twain Shall Meet”, since it’s a no quarter given affair.

Reread my personal views separately from a political party’s stance, not an answer you extracted by moving the goalposts.

Or perhaps I should ask your views? Is it carte blanche? What about the thread topic of trans people in women’s sports?

Why get pissy? You said you identified with the CPC’s position and took seriously the concerns of less than 1%. CPC’s position is to deny all youth trans care. I disagreed with you. If I’m misunderstanding your position, help me understand it. I didn’t move the goal posts. I either understood or misunderstood your position based on your post. Again, you said you identified with the CPC’s position. If you don’t, explain where you stand. No need for a hissy.

Regarding the thread topic, I’m undecided as I tend to think it’s such a small percentage and is used as a wedge to drive the narrative that any trans care shouldn’t be allowed, much like the abortion issue. But I can understand the concern.

If I remember correctly, there was a US male high school student in the 1980s who sued to play on the girls field hockey team because they didn’t offer a male field hockey team. He won and played. And society still exists.

You’ve chosen to focus on one tiny aspect and ignore several other statements by me that maybe give some context to the matter, fine, that’s your method, including pigeonholing people.

So if I get pissy because overall you’re misrepresenting me and my views, then I suspect you accomplished your goal.

I wouldn’t deny youth treatment, I don’t know where you got that idea. I’m incredibly hesitant about irreversible changes to youths whose brains haven’t completely developed. Forgive my caution.

As I said, outside of sports I’ll hold pretty much every door open for trans people and I even admire them for embracing their authenticity.

Too much nuance I guess.

Halifax2TheMax said:

DarthMaeglin said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

DarthMaeglin said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

DarthMaeglin said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

DarthMaeglin said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

DarthMaeglin said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

DarthMaeglin said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

DarthMaeglin said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

DarthMaeglin said:

Tim Simmons said:

It should be clear by now. Conservative and bigots plan is 1% protecting girls/women*, 99% ostracizing, marginalizing, othering and hopefully eliminating Trans people. 



*which will go to 0% once this plan is accomplished 

It’s always fun popping in here to see what I’m supposed to believe as a Conservative and contrast it with my actual beliefs.

There’s a difference between Canadian conservative ideology and views and US conservative ideology and views, in case you haven’t noticed.

The post to which I replied didn’t make any distinction, making Conservatives and bigots walk hand-in-hand.

Just as there’s a spectrum of “progressive” values, it’s no different on the other side.

However, the response was to my post of COOTWH’s actions, the climate of fear that US conservatives have fostered against the trans community in the US and a family from Maine deciding to leave the US. Context matters. They’re capable of defending their post so I’ll stop here.

So, as a Canadian conservative, what are your thoughts on the trans community and the subject of the title? Canada has had gay marriage since the 80’s, I believe, being the first to recognize it at a federal level and codify it as a basic right, correct? What is the Canadian conservative view of the trans community? I think it’s, meh , whatever and no big deal (not being dismissive, just doesn’t get folks so riled up) but I may be wrong. It may be different as well between provinces, Alberta/BC, but again, I’m not sure.

20-25% of religious Americans are evangelical and they are for sure, if conservative, against anything trans. Add in the conservative Catholics, Anglicans, Muslim and Jewish faiths and you can understand why trans folks in the US are fearful. I don’t get the same sense of Canada in that way.

Put simply I personally have no issues with trans people outside of the matter of sports. However even some family members are more in line with Tim’s blanket statement. So it’s a spectrum.

Here in Canada it’s the so-called “progressive” parties that don’t allow for freedom of thought and belief (try taking an anti-trans position in the Liberals or NDP. Dear Justin’s first act as party leader was to kick out anyone that disputed his chosen position on abortion, for example.) unfortunately.

I believe this is the post you’re requesting I respond to.

while “you personally”, as a conservative have no issue with the trans community, what is the policy position of PP’s Conservative Party? Are they as open as you?

”Dont allow for ‘freedom of thought and belief’.” How is that manifested? Seems like a blanket statement and there’d have to be more than a one off to make it true, yes? From what I see and know, I don’t see liberals being silenced and if they are, they align/identify/switch to NDP or go Green. But what do I know? Whereas with conservatives, there may not be that space within the Conservative Party, more monolithic? and if you want an alternative, it’s fringe or Quebecois?

If my assumptions are correct, where in that context do you fall? And where do the conservative parties stand on trans rights?

As far as I know the Conservative Party of Canada supports people transitioning as adults but being more cautious when it comes to minors, a stance I agree with, but I pay attention to the facts others consider inconvenient, like the reported cases of people regretting transitioning (which implies they never should have been approved in the first place).

In short, I agree with the CPC’s stance on the issue, one that I consider balanced with an eye to safeguarding our youth. Kind of like the line “Some words when spoken/Can’t be taken back” some actions have lasting, even permanent effects that aren’t desirable.

As for how the other parties tolerate dissent from within their own ranks, I gave a clear, documented case from our Liberal Party.

Sounds like COOTWH’s repub party and its hypocrisy. Conservatives crow about individual rights and freedoms except the ones they don’t like. As for regrets, less than 1% of youth in Canada who transition have regrets. So deny 99% of youth because you have to “protect” less than 1%. Fuzzy math. Also, agree that government should be between the child, their parents or guardian and their health care provider. It’s not like kids can walk into a doctor’s office and demand and receive transition care.

Same for a woman’s right to choose. An individual right to choose but because conservatives disagree, screw your individual rights and freedoms. How do you square those?

Canada’s conservatives seem very aligned with COOTWHism and the current US repub party on those two issues at least.

So what was your take on my personal views? Could it maybe be that you and I aren’t that far apart on this issue?

You said you were aligned with CPC’s position, which I disagree with. We’re very far apart on this issue.

I give up, AMT should be renamed “Never The Twain Shall Meet”, since it’s a no quarter given affair.

Reread my personal views separately from a political party’s stance, not an answer you extracted by moving the goalposts.

Or perhaps I should ask your views? Is it carte blanche? What about the thread topic of trans people in women’s sports?

Why get pissy? You said you identified with the CPC’s position and took seriously the concerns of less than 1%. CPC’s position is to deny all youth trans care. I disagreed with you. If I’m misunderstanding your position, help me understand it. I didn’t move the goal posts. I either understood or misunderstood your position based on your post. Again, you said you identified with the CPC’s position. If you don’t, explain where you stand. No need for a hissy.

Regarding the thread topic, I’m undecided as I tend to think it’s such a small percentage and is used as a wedge to drive the narrative that any trans care shouldn’t be allowed, much like the abortion issue. But I can understand the concern.

If I remember correctly, there was a US male high school student in the 1980s who sued to play on the girls field hockey team because they didn’t offer a male field hockey team. He won and played. And society still exists.

You’ve chosen to focus on one tiny aspect and ignore several other statements by me that maybe give some context to the matter, fine, that’s your method, including pigeonholing people.

So if I get pissy because overall you’re misrepresenting me and my views, then I suspect you accomplished your goal.

I wouldn’t deny youth treatment, I don’t know where you got that idea. I’m incredibly hesitant about irreversible changes to youths whose brains haven’t completely developed. Forgive my caution.

As I said, outside of sports I’ll hold pretty much every door open for trans people and I even admire them for embracing their authenticity.

Too much nuance I guess.

Because you said you identified with the CPC’s position and there position is to deny all youth trans care. You clarified that you stand apart from that. This we agree on.

I still think being overly protective of less than one percent is misguided. This we disagree on.

Maybe sports teams should be based on height, weight, strength and speed versus solely gender based? I don’t know.

Except the CPC wouldn’t deny all treatment as you suggest, but would limit what treatments are available. Mis- or disinformation?

CBC reporting on party platform vote. I’ll link to it if I can find it again.

DarthMaeglin said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

DarthMaeglin said:

Top of the picture shows my characterization of the CPCs stance to be more accurate than Halifax’s. Number 92.

 I don’t like doing this but when blatant misrepresentations are being made.

What part of “prohibit” don’t you understand? And how is that a “blatant misrepresentation?”

You try to keep claiming that the CPC would deny ALL treatments to trans youth, which isn’t borne out by the facts.

Conservatives approve policies to limit transgender health care for minors, end race-based hiring

Other debate focused on female spaces, the energy industry and Canada's passport

Halifax2TheMax said:

DarthMaeglin said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

DarthMaeglin said:

Top of the picture shows my characterization of the CPCs stance to be more accurate than Halifax’s. Number 92.

 I don’t like doing this but when blatant misrepresentations are being made.

What part of “prohibit” don’t you understand? And how is that a “blatant misrepresentation?”

You try to keep claiming that the CPC would deny ALL treatments to trans youth, which isn’t borne out by the facts.

Hormone blockers and surgical procedures. What other types of trans care exist and if you ban or prevent access to the most important treatments that promote transitioning, isn’t it then denying trans youth the ability to do so? I also disagree with the characterization that transitioning is a mental illness and should be treated as such. From CBC, granted almost two years old:

Conservatives approve policies to limit transgender health care for minors, end race-based hiring

Other debate focused on female spaces, the energy industry and Canada's passport

Conservative delegates voted Saturday to add some new social conservative policies to their policy playbook, including a proposal to limit access to transgender health care for minors and another to do away with vaccine mandates.

Despite warnings that these policies could be weaponized by their political opponents to hurt their standing among more moderate voters, a strong majority of the delegates on hand voted for a motion that stated children should be prohibited from gender-related "life-altering medicinal or surgical interventions," and for another that said Canadians should have "bodily autonomy" when it comes to vaccines and other health treatments.

About 69 per cent of the delegates agreed that young people should be barred from gender-affirming care, which sometimes includes hormone-related treatments that delay puberty or promote the development of masculine or feminine sex characteristics.

Michelle Badalich, an Edmonton delegate, said dysphoria is a "mental health disorder" and it should be addressed with treatment not "irreversible procedures."

"Please protect our kids," she said to thunderous applause.

It's not clear precisely which medical treatments would be targeted by the proposed ban.

The Canadian Pediatric Society (CPS) has said that "gender-affirming medical interventions may be an important component of comprehensive care" for some transgender or gender-diverse adolescents.

Conservative Leader Pierre Poilievre is not bound to adopt any of the policies that were passed at this convention. Poilievre did not take questions from reporters after the votes.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/conservative-policy-convention-transgender-1.6961991

Happy to move this conversation to the Canadian politics thread.

Halifax2TheMax said:

DarthMaeglin said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

DarthMaeglin said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

DarthMaeglin said:

Top of the picture shows my characterization of the CPCs stance to be more accurate than Halifax’s. Number 92.

 I don’t like doing this but when blatant misrepresentations are being made.

What part of “prohibit” don’t you understand? And how is that a “blatant misrepresentation?”

You try to keep claiming that the CPC would deny ALL treatments to trans youth, which isn’t borne out by the facts.

Hormone blockers and surgical procedures. What other types of trans care exist and if you ban or prevent access to the most important treatments that promote transitioning, isn’t it then denying trans youth the ability to do so? I also disagree with the characterization that transitioning is a mental illness and should be treated as such. From CBC, granted almost two years old:

Conservatives approve policies to limit transgender health care for minors, end race-based hiring

Other debate focused on female spaces, the energy industry and Canada's passport

Conservative delegates voted Saturday to add some new social conservative policies to their policy playbook, including a proposal to limit access to transgender health care for minors and another to do away with vaccine mandates.

Despite warnings that these policies could be weaponized by their political opponents to hurt their standing among more moderate voters, a strong majority of the delegates on hand voted for a motion that stated children should be prohibited from gender-related "life-altering medicinal or surgical interventions," and for another that said Canadians should have "bodily autonomy" when it comes to vaccines and other health treatments.

About 69 per cent of the delegates agreed that young people should be barred from gender-affirming care, which sometimes includes hormone-related treatments that delay puberty or promote the development of masculine or feminine sex characteristics.

Michelle Badalich, an Edmonton delegate, said dysphoria is a "mental health disorder" and it should be addressed with treatment not "irreversible procedures."

"Please protect our kids," she said to thunderous applause.

It's not clear precisely which medical treatments would be targeted by the proposed ban.

The Canadian Pediatric Society (CPS) has said that "gender-affirming medical interventions may be an important component of comprehensive care" for some transgender or gender-diverse adolescents.

Conservative Leader Pierre Poilievre is not bound to adopt any of the policies that were passed at this convention. Poilievre did not take questions from reporters after the votes.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/conservative-policy-convention-transgender-1.6961991

Happy to move this conversation to the Canadian politics thread.

Does it not clearly state in point 92 that yes, chemical and surgical interventions on youths will be prohibited (gasp!), mental health supports will be provided? To me that doesn’t characterize it as mental illness, it’s a choice to read the statement that way, if that’s what you meant.

What’s wrong with letting youth explore any questions they have by living as their true gender without causing irreversible changes? As adults I think most of us can look back on our youth and acknowledge how clueless we really were, even about ourselves. There’s good reason there are stages to achieving adulthood, such as treating youth crime less harshly than adults. Maturity is important in this matter, I believe.

I realize I’ll probably get myself in hot water for this statement, but if children are deemed to have the right to change their gender then let’s also give them all the other adult responsibilities and accountabilities as well, such as criminally.

Edit: Clearly I also believe that as a child explores who they are supports need to be put in place, such as counselling to help guide them through the journey.

Yes, it does. And that’s where we disagree. I believe a full range of treatment options should remain available and that process should be between parents/guardians, child and healthcare providers. And mental healthcare should consist of the full range of care and not just trying to convince a youth that they should remain in their gender of their birth.

Are not some youths charged as adults for crimes in Canada? They certainly are in the US.

To the bold, I believe that’s what happens, it doesn’t happen without consultation, involvement and safeguards. It’s not Willy nilly, let’s just go get a sex change.

Again, it’s a process. You don’t have kids walking into doctors offices and coming out an opposite gender. And where we differ is I’m for the rights of 99+% with a full range of options while you want to limit their options because of less than 1%. Agree to disagree.