Keeping Men out of Women's Sports

HughFreakingDillon

mace1229 said:

Bentleyspop said:

OnWis97 said:

For months I assumed she finished second in the race that made her famous. Turns out she finished 5th. Where are the other three?

She finished TIED for 5th with Lia Thomas!

I believe she did win many races, but the only time the two competed together, Lia did not win.

Also, I don't think it really matters. You're either for biological completing with females or you're not. The place you come in shouldn't;t factor into your beliefs. 

the point being made is that the issue is so infinitesimal that the fuss being made about this issue by the right is just another boogieman. remember the caravans fox news and trump kept trying to stir everyone into a scared frenzy about? deal with it at the local level where it belongs. it's like the feds getting involved in a school yard fight. it's just so absurd. 

Tim Simmons

If we keep fighting about statistically insignificant stuff, there won't be time to fight for the truly important stuff.

HughFreakingDillon

Tim Simmons said:

If we keep fighting about statistically insignificant stuff, there won't be time to fight for the truly important stuff.

and that's the whole point: the right wants to distract everyone with these little fights so we forget about what matters. 

Bentleyspop

HughFreakingDillon said:

Tim Simmons said:

If we keep fighting about statistically insignificant stuff, there won't be time to fight for the truly important stuff.

and that's the whole point: the right wants to distract everyone with these little fights so we forget about what matters. 

That is what they do. They spew an unending litany of bs, conspiracy theories, dogwhistles, and lies to keep their brainwashed base riled up about things that are not important. In order to keep them distracted from important things like the economy, Jeffrey Epstein, increased food prices, rising unemployment, the grift, the corruption, the constant pardoning of people who shouldn't be pardoned, etc etc.

Gern Blansten

caravans

mace1229

gimmesometruth27 said:

mace1229 said:

Bentleyspop said:

OnWis97 said:

For months I assumed she finished second in the race that made her famous. Turns out she finished 5th. Where are the other three?

She finished TIED for 5th with Lia Thomas!

I believe she did win many races, but the only time the two competed together, Lia did not win.

Also, I don't think it really matters. You're either for biological completing with females or you're not. The place you come in shouldn't;t factor into your beliefs. 

tied for fifth place though? may has well have not even dove into the water that day. 

Tying for 5th in the NCAA Division I swimming championships is a waste of a day for you? Seems like a pretty good accomplishment for an athlete to me. 

Tim Simmons

Well then why can't she just be happy with 5th? 

mace1229

HughFreakingDillon said:

mace1229 said:

Bentleyspop said:

OnWis97 said:

For months I assumed she finished second in the race that made her famous. Turns out she finished 5th. Where are the other three?

She finished TIED for 5th with Lia Thomas!

I believe she did win many races, but the only time the two competed together, Lia did not win.

Also, I don't think it really matters. You're either for biological completing with females or you're not. The place you come in shouldn't;t factor into your beliefs. 

the point being made is that the issue is so infinitesimal that the fuss being made about this issue by the right is just another boogieman. remember the caravans fox news and trump kept trying to stir everyone into a scared frenzy about? deal with it at the local level where it belongs. it's like the feds getting involved in a school yard fight. it's just so absurd. 

 The right can make the same argument, it takes 2 to fight over the issue. 

It becomes a bigger point because the right sees it as something so obvious, that biological males shouldn't compete against biological females. But then the left only see's it as a bigot/homophobic issue, when it really isn't. So instead of it just going away, it becomes a bigger thing. 

For example, Leah swam as a member of the men's team for 2 years at her university. She then transitioned and began swimming for the women's team. To me, it makes total sense that someone born male, grows up male, trains and competes as a male, competes for 2 years at the college level as a male, shouldn't just get to switch teams. And instead of saying "yeah, I can see how that kinda makes sense," usually that argument just gets "you hate trans people" instead. 

It may be a small issue, but it should also be one that is easy to come to a consensus over and take 5 minutes of anyone's time. The whole reason it gets any attention is because her changing teams keeps getting defended and calling out anyone who disagrees.

HughFreakingDillon

I’m as liberal as they come and I agree with you. I also don’t like the automatic labels of being a bigot or not. That’s case by case and is thrown into every single conversation surrounding this issue. 

Being a trans ally and being a feminist don’t have to be mutually exclusive, but for some it seems to be. 

The problem we’re talking about though is this issue shouldn’t be a talking point for federal officials. It’s fear mongering otherism. Trans is the new black, if you will. It should be dealt with by the individual organizations. They need to create policy surrounding it, aside from the lazy “just ban them” nonsense. I’ve said this before, maybe with the exception for contact sports, do it by weight and height classes instead of gender. 

mace1229

HughFreakingDillon said:

I’m as liberal as they come and I agree with you. I also don’t like the automatic labels of being a bigot or not. That’s case by case and is thrown into every single conversation surrounding this issue. 

Being a trans ally and being a feminist don’t have to be mutually exclusive, but for some it seems to be. 

The problem we’re talking about though is this issue shouldn’t be a talking point for federal officials. It’s fear mongering otherism. Trans is the new black, if you will. It should be dealt with by the individual organizations. They need to create policy surrounding it, aside from the lazy “just ban them” nonsense. I’ve said this before, maybe with the exception for contact sports, do it by weight and height classes instead of gender. 

But then no female would ever win swimming, or many other sports, ever again if they competed against males of the same height and weight.  Males ar just faster than females, I don't think categorizing by weight is going to change that. 

Gern Blansten

mace1229 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I’m as liberal as they come and I agree with you. I also don’t like the automatic labels of being a bigot or not. That’s case by case and is thrown into every single conversation surrounding this issue. 

Being a trans ally and being a feminist don’t have to be mutually exclusive, but for some it seems to be. 

The problem we’re talking about though is this issue shouldn’t be a talking point for federal officials. It’s fear mongering otherism. Trans is the new black, if you will. It should be dealt with by the individual organizations. They need to create policy surrounding it, aside from the lazy “just ban them” nonsense. I’ve said this before, maybe with the exception for contact sports, do it by weight and height classes instead of gender. 

But then no female would ever win swimming, or many other sports, ever again if they competed against males of the same height and weight.  Males ar just faster than females, I don't think categorizing by weight is going to change that. 

yeah I don't have an issue with trans people but the sports should be totally separate....not trying to be funny but if we need a mixed gender league/sport then that's the solution.

too many variables, too much room for manipulation

Go Beavers

mace1229 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mace1229 said:

Bentleyspop said:

OnWis97 said:

For months I assumed she finished second in the race that made her famous. Turns out she finished 5th. Where are the other three?

She finished TIED for 5th with Lia Thomas!

I believe she did win many races, but the only time the two competed together, Lia did not win.

Also, I don't think it really matters. You're either for biological completing with females or you're not. The place you come in shouldn't;t factor into your beliefs. 

the point being made is that the issue is so infinitesimal that the fuss being made about this issue by the right is just another boogieman. remember the caravans fox news and trump kept trying to stir everyone into a scared frenzy about? deal with it at the local level where it belongs. it's like the feds getting involved in a school yard fight. it's just so absurd. 

 The right can make the same argument, it takes 2 to fight over the issue. 

It becomes a bigger point because the right sees it as something so obvious, that biological males shouldn't compete against biological females. But then the left only see's it as a bigot/homophobic issue, when it really isn't. So instead of it just going away, it becomes a bigger thing. 

For example, Leah swam as a member of the men's team for 2 years at her university. She then transitioned and began swimming for the women's team. To me, it makes total sense that someone born male, grows up male, trains and competes as a male, competes for 2 years at the college level as a male, shouldn't just get to switch teams. And instead of saying "yeah, I can see how that kinda makes sense," usually that argument just gets "you hate trans people" instead. 

It may be a small issue, but it should also be one that is easy to come to a consensus over and take 5 minutes of anyone's time. The whole reason it gets any attention is because her changing teams keeps getting defended and calling out anyone who disagrees.

It’s 100% a boogyman scapegoat issue from the right. It’s a way to rally around anger dressed up as “concern for women”. Instead of each governing body of the sport handling it, we get these stupid EOs trying to define male and female. Is it what we are at conception, because we all start out as females. Is it what’s on our birth certificate? If so, then you’re forcing trans men who’ve had bottom surgery into the locker room with 15 year old girls. Republicans think this is why Trump won, so they aren’t going to drop it anytime soon. 

gimmesometruth27

mace1229 said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

mace1229 said:

Bentleyspop said:

OnWis97 said:

For months I assumed she finished second in the race that made her famous. Turns out she finished 5th. Where are the other three?

She finished TIED for 5th with Lia Thomas!

I believe she did win many races, but the only time the two competed together, Lia did not win.

Also, I don't think it really matters. You're either for biological completing with females or you're not. The place you come in shouldn't;t factor into your beliefs. 

tied for fifth place though? may has well have not even dove into the water that day. 

Tying for 5th in the NCAA Division I swimming championships is a waste of a day for you? Seems like a pretty good accomplishment for an athlete to me. 

"i tied for 5th place with a trans athlete and i am about to cash in and make it my whole fucking personality."

HughFreakingDillon

mace1229 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I’m as liberal as they come and I agree with you. I also don’t like the automatic labels of being a bigot or not. That’s case by case and is thrown into every single conversation surrounding this issue. 

Being a trans ally and being a feminist don’t have to be mutually exclusive, but for some it seems to be. 

The problem we’re talking about though is this issue shouldn’t be a talking point for federal officials. It’s fear mongering otherism. Trans is the new black, if you will. It should be dealt with by the individual organizations. They need to create policy surrounding it, aside from the lazy “just ban them” nonsense. I’ve said this before, maybe with the exception for contact sports, do it by weight and height classes instead of gender. 

But then no female would ever win swimming, or many other sports, ever again if they competed against males of the same height and weight.  Males ar just faster than females, I don't think categorizing by weight is going to change that. 

I didn't mean combine all sports into one gender. I meant if a trans woman wanted to compete in women's sports, she can do it in a specified weight class. She can't make that weight, you don't compete. There aren't that many trans women who compete at that level, and this idea from the right that men will start transitioning just to be a winner at sports is absurd. 

again, my point is that it's so rare, it's basically meaningless. 

Tim Simmons

mace1229 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mace1229 said:

Bentleyspop said:

OnWis97 said:

For months I assumed she finished second in the race that made her famous. Turns out she finished 5th. Where are the other three?

She finished TIED for 5th with Lia Thomas!

I believe she did win many races, but the only time the two competed together, Lia did not win.

Also, I don't think it really matters. You're either for biological completing with females or you're not. The place you come in shouldn't;t factor into your beliefs. 

the point being made is that the issue is so infinitesimal that the fuss being made about this issue by the right is just another boogieman. remember the caravans fox news and trump kept trying to stir everyone into a scared frenzy about? deal with it at the local level where it belongs. it's like the feds getting involved in a school yard fight. it's just so absurd. 

  
It becomes a bigger point because the right sees it as something so obvious, that biological males shouldn't compete against biological females. But then the left only see's it as a bigot/homophobic issue, when it really isn't. So instead of it just going away, it becomes a bigger thing. 

So theres no transphobia wrapped up in this issue at all??

Tim Simmons

But yes, the bigger conversation is then where do these people exist. My assumption is the people who push back don't want these people to exist AT ALL which is why progressive minded folks do take issue with it being transphobic. But to say its the only reason is dismissive and undercuts the real issue here. A marginalized group wants to exist along side the majority and they want to have the discussion of how. Yes transphobia comes into play, but the discussion can be had (seems like its been the case for the most part, recently, in this thread) where it can be discussed logically.

As I and several others have said. Its fine if the governing bodies of these sports decide you compete with your birth gender, but it doesn't need to be legislated at all. 

OnWis97

Tim Simmons said:

mace1229 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mace1229 said:

Bentleyspop said:

OnWis97 said:

For months I assumed she finished second in the race that made her famous. Turns out she finished 5th. Where are the other three?

She finished TIED for 5th with Lia Thomas!

I believe she did win many races, but the only time the two competed together, Lia did not win.

Also, I don't think it really matters. You're either for biological completing with females or you're not. The place you come in shouldn't;t factor into your beliefs. 

the point being made is that the issue is so infinitesimal that the fuss being made about this issue by the right is just another boogieman. remember the caravans fox news and trump kept trying to stir everyone into a scared frenzy about? deal with it at the local level where it belongs. it's like the feds getting involved in a school yard fight. it's just so absurd. 

  
It becomes a bigger point because the right sees it as something so obvious, that biological males shouldn't compete against biological females. But then the left only see's it as a bigot/homophobic issue, when it really isn't. So instead of it just going away, it becomes a bigger thing. 

So theres no transphobia at all wrapped up in this issue at all??

"But sports" is a very effective way to bring people along to transphobia.

tempo_n_groove

gimmesometruth27 said:

mace1229 said:

Bentleyspop said:

OnWis97 said:

For months I assumed she finished second in the race that made her famous. Turns out she finished 5th. Where are the other three?

She finished TIED for 5th with Lia Thomas!

I believe she did win many races, but the only time the two competed together, Lia did not win.

Also, I don't think it really matters. You're either for biological completing with females or you're not. The place you come in shouldn't;t factor into your beliefs. 

tied for fifth place though? may has well have not even dove into the water that day. 

5th in the COUNTRY.

That isn't a bad place.

That is like saying you competed in the Olympics but didn't Medal. You are still one of the best of the best.

gimmesometruth27

tempo_n_groove said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

mace1229 said:

Bentleyspop said:

OnWis97 said:

For months I assumed she finished second in the race that made her famous. Turns out she finished 5th. Where are the other three?

She finished TIED for 5th with Lia Thomas!

I believe she did win many races, but the only time the two competed together, Lia did not win.

Also, I don't think it really matters. You're either for biological completing with females or you're not. The place you come in shouldn't;t factor into your beliefs. 

tied for fifth place though? may has well have not even dove into the water that day. 

5th in the COUNTRY.

That isn't a bad place.

That is like saying you competed in the Olympics but didn't Medal. You are still one of the best of the best.

so she has still made it her entire personality. she sounds like trump complaining that the 2020 election was rigged. 

mace1229

Tim Simmons said:

mace1229 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mace1229 said:

Bentleyspop said:

OnWis97 said:

For months I assumed she finished second in the race that made her famous. Turns out she finished 5th. Where are the other three?

She finished TIED for 5th with Lia Thomas!

I believe she did win many races, but the only time the two competed together, Lia did not win.

Also, I don't think it really matters. You're either for biological completing with females or you're not. The place you come in shouldn't;t factor into your beliefs. 

the point being made is that the issue is so infinitesimal that the fuss being made about this issue by the right is just another boogieman. remember the caravans fox news and trump kept trying to stir everyone into a scared frenzy about? deal with it at the local level where it belongs. it's like the feds getting involved in a school yard fight. it's just so absurd. 

  
It becomes a bigger point because the right sees it as something so obvious, that biological males shouldn't compete against biological females. But then the left only see's it as a bigot/homophobic issue, when it really isn't. So instead of it just going away, it becomes a bigger thing. 

So theres no transphobia wrapped up in this issue at all??

I’m sure some people are, but that’s not the majority.
And this kinda just proved my point. You can’t say “men don’t belong in women’s sports” without being called transphobic.
I don’t care about their private lives. I just don’t believe some who has the physical advantage of being biologically male should compete against females. I don’t think it matters if it’s a common problem or not. That’s irrelevant as to weather it should be allowed. It only keeps being brought up because whenever it is, the transphobia argument is brought on. If it’s not a big deal and is so rare, and there’s more female athletes against it than trans athletes trying to compete, why not just ban it then? Problem solved. Common sense and majority wins.
The majority of people don’t really care about their personal lives.