I accepted that everything is going to hell and there is nothing we can do about it quite a while back. Capitalism is failing, religion continues to create horrors, the climate is crashing, America is jumping the shark, Russia is essentially back to acting like the Soviet Union, China is trying to take over the world, more and more regions are becoming uninhabitable, and if the water wars haven't started to happen well within the next 50 years I'll be shocked. Que sera, sera is really my feeling about it at this point to be honest, along with a healthy amount of general disgust. What I don't have is hope. But I just don't have the will to keep agonizing over it anymore. I doubt I'd feel so ambivalent about everything if I had children... and also all that is why I don't have children. The one thing I do still agonize over is women's rights around the world, because it's not too late for that.
All very understandable feelings. I have to admit my level of hope has diminished and I'm also more prone to wanting to just stay busy and not think about it all too much. Not doing so well on the latter, but moving in that direction.
It amazes me that we are still in a situation where so many women are struggling for rights, even to a degree in North America. But it's especially bad in the Middle East, parts of Africa, Pakistan, etc. This world is so damn slow to learn.
It is shocking, and in the USA's case, it's moving backwards. :(
I watched The Handmaiden's Tale and saw Gilead and the treatment of women in it as a cautionary story. I am convinced some see it as a "how to" manual. I raised 2 daughters and have 4 young granddaughters. I truly worry about their futures.
I'm glad you mentioned Handmaiden's Tale. Though disturbing, I'm told it's an excellent book. On my "to read" list it goes.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
global current events have little impact on my recent feelings because there seems to always be something horrible going on. But locally, seems like were in a downward spiral as a civilization. The smash and grabs, open shoplifting. My wife and I have both witnessed multiple times people filling up shopping carts at the grocery store or TJ Max and just walking out with it. No shame and they know the employees can't and won't stop them. I never saw that 2+ years ago.
Feeling kind of sick in my stomach after this last news. Yesterday I picked my son up on my way home. They both usually ride the same bus, one was sent home for getting sick (got a celiac flare up after halloween candy I think) and I just decided to pick the other up on my way home. They used to like the bus, but hate it this year because they say the kids are crazy on it and the driver has to keep stopping, and they get home late. Then we see the bus stop at our house, at first I figured he didn't notice our kids weren't on. But he just stayed there, after a few minutes my wife went out to see what was going on, the driver said he knew our kids weren't on, but had to take care of something. He began to yell at some kids to stay seated. He remained parked in front for about 15 minutes, it was really weird. We almost went out again, but then the bus left. This morning we read some news reports of a school bus where 10 year old kids could be seen pounding on the windows holding up signs asking for help and to call 911. So some people did, and police found the bus. They arrested the driver for assaulting one of the kids. We just found out it was the bus our kids take and all this happened minutes after they left our house. I'm assuming he lost his temper at one of the kids for acting up again. Obviously no excuse for it. So glad our kids didn't ride yesterday. But wish we had the foresight to do something.
I was never worried about bus drivers before. Now I'll probably pick them up every day.
global current events have little impact on my recent feelings because there seems to always be something horrible going on. But locally, seems like were in a downward spiral as a civilization. The smash and grabs, open shoplifting. My wife and I have both witnessed multiple times people filling up shopping carts at the grocery store or TJ Max and just walking out with it. No shame and they know the employees can't and won't stop them. I never saw that 2+ years ago.
Feeling kind of sick in my stomach after this last news. Yesterday I picked my son up on my way home. They both usually ride the same bus, one was sent home for getting sick (got a celiac flare up after halloween candy I think) and I just decided to pick the other up on my way home. They used to like the bus, but hate it this year because they say the kids are crazy on it and the driver has to keep stopping, and they get home late. Then we see the bus stop at our house, at first I figured he didn't notice our kids weren't on. But he just stayed there, after a few minutes my wife went out to see what was going on, the driver said he knew our kids weren't on, but had to take care of something. He began to yell at some kids to stay seated. He remained parked in front for about 15 minutes, it was really weird. We almost went out again, but then the bus left. This morning we read some news reports of a school bus where 10 year old kids could be seen pounding on the windows holding up signs asking for help and to call 911. So some people did, and police found the bus. They arrested the driver for assaulting one of the kids. We just found out it was the bus our kids take and all this happened minutes after they left our house. I'm assuming he lost his temper at one of the kids for acting up again. Obviously no excuse for it. So glad our kids didn't ride yesterday. But wish we had the foresight to do something.
I was never worried about bus drivers before. Now I'll probably pick them up every day.
Last year at our local school, one of the bus drivers was so fed up that one day she pulled the bus to the side of the road and called the bus garage. She told them to send another driver and that she quit on the spot. The bus was full of rowdy kids and she had enough. I remember fearing the bus driver when I was a kid. I never thought he was going to assault me but I didn't want him yelling at me. Maybe because I watched Nightmare on Elm Street 2... Nowadays, the kids run amuck and the bus drivers have very little they can do about it. Our school no longer disciplines kids like they used to. They don't feel like suspending kids for being bad on the bus is OK because it singles out the bad kids. It's pretty sad when a bus driver quits with a bus full of kids. For the record, she didn't just walk away from the bus but she just couldn't handle it anymore and I don't blame her. The school district doesn't support bus drivers like they used to which is really sad.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,769
global current events have little impact on my recent feelings because there seems to always be something horrible going on. But locally, seems like were in a downward spiral as a civilization. The smash and grabs, open shoplifting. My wife and I have both witnessed multiple times people filling up shopping carts at the grocery store or TJ Max and just walking out with it. No shame and they know the employees can't and won't stop them. I never saw that 2+ years ago.
Feeling kind of sick in my stomach after this last news. Yesterday I picked my son up on my way home. They both usually ride the same bus, one was sent home for getting sick (got a celiac flare up after halloween candy I think) and I just decided to pick the other up on my way home. They used to like the bus, but hate it this year because they say the kids are crazy on it and the driver has to keep stopping, and they get home late. Then we see the bus stop at our house, at first I figured he didn't notice our kids weren't on. But he just stayed there, after a few minutes my wife went out to see what was going on, the driver said he knew our kids weren't on, but had to take care of something. He began to yell at some kids to stay seated. He remained parked in front for about 15 minutes, it was really weird. We almost went out again, but then the bus left. This morning we read some news reports of a school bus where 10 year old kids could be seen pounding on the windows holding up signs asking for help and to call 911. So some people did, and police found the bus. They arrested the driver for assaulting one of the kids. We just found out it was the bus our kids take and all this happened minutes after they left our house. I'm assuming he lost his temper at one of the kids for acting up again. Obviously no excuse for it. So glad our kids didn't ride yesterday. But wish we had the foresight to do something.
I was never worried about bus drivers before. Now I'll probably pick them up every day.
That sucks and I feel bad for the driver because these days, kids can put the drivers through hell. I did a few years as a sub and, believe me, it's murder. But any driver is always wrong assaulting kid... (see below)...
global current events have little impact on my recent feelings because there seems to always be something horrible going on. But locally, seems like were in a downward spiral as a civilization. The smash and grabs, open shoplifting. My wife and I have both witnessed multiple times people filling up shopping carts at the grocery store or TJ Max and just walking out with it. No shame and they know the employees can't and won't stop them. I never saw that 2+ years ago.
Feeling kind of sick in my stomach after this last news. Yesterday I picked my son up on my way home. They both usually ride the same bus, one was sent home for getting sick (got a celiac flare up after halloween candy I think) and I just decided to pick the other up on my way home. They used to like the bus, but hate it this year because they say the kids are crazy on it and the driver has to keep stopping, and they get home late. Then we see the bus stop at our house, at first I figured he didn't notice our kids weren't on. But he just stayed there, after a few minutes my wife went out to see what was going on, the driver said he knew our kids weren't on, but had to take care of something. He began to yell at some kids to stay seated. He remained parked in front for about 15 minutes, it was really weird. We almost went out again, but then the bus left. This morning we read some news reports of a school bus where 10 year old kids could be seen pounding on the windows holding up signs asking for help and to call 911. So some people did, and police found the bus. They arrested the driver for assaulting one of the kids. We just found out it was the bus our kids take and all this happened minutes after they left our house. I'm assuming he lost his temper at one of the kids for acting up again. Obviously no excuse for it. So glad our kids didn't ride yesterday. But wish we had the foresight to do something.
I was never worried about bus drivers before. Now I'll probably pick them up every day.
Last year at our local school, one of the bus drivers was so fed up that one day she pulled the bus to the side of the road and called the bus garage. She told them to send another driver and that she quit on the spot. The bus was full of rowdy kids and she had enough. I remember fearing the bus driver when I was a kid. I never thought he was going to assault me but I didn't want him yelling at me. Maybe because I watched Nightmare on Elm Street 2... Nowadays, the kids run amuck and the bus drivers have very little they can do about it. Our school no longer disciplines kids like they used to. They don't feel like suspending kids for being bad on the bus is OK because it singles out the bad kids. It's pretty sad when a bus driver quits with a bus full of kids. For the record, she didn't just walk away from the bus but she just couldn't handle it anymore and I don't blame her. The school district doesn't support bus drivers like they used to which is really sad.
... he should have done what she did. Either deal with it becasue, as much as it sucks, it's part of the job or quit. Of course the blame is almost always on the parents. Good parents don't bring up kids who act that way.
**************************
mace1229, you mentioned, "...locally, seems like were in a downward spiral as a civilization." I was conversing with a friend via email the other day. She lives in wealthy, ultra liberal Sonoma County California, and I live in more modest income/ strongly conservative leaning El Dorado County, California. Socially, on the surface, they are two very socially different environments. But they have some things in common. I told her about how this area used to be a friendly place where people were generally courteous and relatively civilized, but that it has quickly grown due to development, and at the same time has become very fast paced, with many aggressive, angry, and rude people. She said, likewise, that Sonoma county is experiencing "its cancerous population growth" and she sees that many "insane drivers are another issue that plague us here," and that "people have lost all sense of decency and courtesy" where she lives.
These problems are becoming nearly ubiquitous-- fast growth due to over-population, and rude, discourteous behavior. If you know of a place that is not experiencing these things, I'd like to know about it. In general though, I am convinced (as many are) that society is breaking down, and this is only going to get worse.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
My bus driver used to slam on the brakes whenever anyone did anything fucked up. Collectively punishing us all. I will never put my daughter through that.
Scio me nihil scire
There are no kings inside the gates of eden
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,769
My bus driver used to slam on the brakes whenever anyone did anything fucked up. Collectively punishing us all. I will never put my daughter through that.
Man, you guys have some strange bus drivers.
But OK, as much as whacko bus drivers are a problem, what about the root of the problem? It is not at all shocking to me that some drivers and teachers go over the edge. I'm not saying it's right, but it happens. Too much stress causes a lot of people to do things they would not normally do and some people have a harder time dealing with high levels of stress. That's why some guys come back from wars relatively sane and stable and some come back majorly fucked up. And believe me, working with kids in some environments is like war. I've been there. I worked in schools where I had very few problems with the kids. I also worked in some very difficult schools. One school I worked at when I subbed for a while was so bad, and the kids were so screwed up (mostly by parents), where I finally said, "Sorry, don't call me again." Which, of course, in the proper response. And I rarely had that kind of difficulty even though subbing is typically hell (have a regular class though was great!)
So I have to say, I will never support inappropriate behavior from a bus driver or teacher, but I also won't always side with parents. A lot of parents do a shitty job of parenting and then they expect other adults to be responsible for their fuck ups. It's a thing, believe. me, and it's just as wrong.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
global current events have little impact on my recent feelings because there seems to always be something horrible going on. But locally, seems like were in a downward spiral as a civilization. The smash and grabs, open shoplifting. My wife and I have both witnessed multiple times people filling up shopping carts at the grocery store or TJ Max and just walking out with it. No shame and they know the employees can't and won't stop them. I never saw that 2+ years ago.
Feeling kind of sick in my stomach after this last news. Yesterday I picked my son up on my way home. They both usually ride the same bus, one was sent home for getting sick (got a celiac flare up after halloween candy I think) and I just decided to pick the other up on my way home. They used to like the bus, but hate it this year because they say the kids are crazy on it and the driver has to keep stopping, and they get home late. Then we see the bus stop at our house, at first I figured he didn't notice our kids weren't on. But he just stayed there, after a few minutes my wife went out to see what was going on, the driver said he knew our kids weren't on, but had to take care of something. He began to yell at some kids to stay seated. He remained parked in front for about 15 minutes, it was really weird. We almost went out again, but then the bus left. This morning we read some news reports of a school bus where 10 year old kids could be seen pounding on the windows holding up signs asking for help and to call 911. So some people did, and police found the bus. They arrested the driver for assaulting one of the kids. We just found out it was the bus our kids take and all this happened minutes after they left our house. I'm assuming he lost his temper at one of the kids for acting up again. Obviously no excuse for it. So glad our kids didn't ride yesterday. But wish we had the foresight to do something.
I was never worried about bus drivers before. Now I'll probably pick them up every day.
That sucks and I feel bad for the driver because these days, kids can put the drivers through hell. I did a few years as a sub and, believe me, it's murder. But any driver is always wrong assaulting kid... (see below)...
global current events have little impact on my recent feelings because there seems to always be something horrible going on. But locally, seems like were in a downward spiral as a civilization. The smash and grabs, open shoplifting. My wife and I have both witnessed multiple times people filling up shopping carts at the grocery store or TJ Max and just walking out with it. No shame and they know the employees can't and won't stop them. I never saw that 2+ years ago.
Feeling kind of sick in my stomach after this last news. Yesterday I picked my son up on my way home. They both usually ride the same bus, one was sent home for getting sick (got a celiac flare up after halloween candy I think) and I just decided to pick the other up on my way home. They used to like the bus, but hate it this year because they say the kids are crazy on it and the driver has to keep stopping, and they get home late. Then we see the bus stop at our house, at first I figured he didn't notice our kids weren't on. But he just stayed there, after a few minutes my wife went out to see what was going on, the driver said he knew our kids weren't on, but had to take care of something. He began to yell at some kids to stay seated. He remained parked in front for about 15 minutes, it was really weird. We almost went out again, but then the bus left. This morning we read some news reports of a school bus where 10 year old kids could be seen pounding on the windows holding up signs asking for help and to call 911. So some people did, and police found the bus. They arrested the driver for assaulting one of the kids. We just found out it was the bus our kids take and all this happened minutes after they left our house. I'm assuming he lost his temper at one of the kids for acting up again. Obviously no excuse for it. So glad our kids didn't ride yesterday. But wish we had the foresight to do something.
I was never worried about bus drivers before. Now I'll probably pick them up every day.
Last year at our local school, one of the bus drivers was so fed up that one day she pulled the bus to the side of the road and called the bus garage. She told them to send another driver and that she quit on the spot. The bus was full of rowdy kids and she had enough. I remember fearing the bus driver when I was a kid. I never thought he was going to assault me but I didn't want him yelling at me. Maybe because I watched Nightmare on Elm Street 2... Nowadays, the kids run amuck and the bus drivers have very little they can do about it. Our school no longer disciplines kids like they used to. They don't feel like suspending kids for being bad on the bus is OK because it singles out the bad kids. It's pretty sad when a bus driver quits with a bus full of kids. For the record, she didn't just walk away from the bus but she just couldn't handle it anymore and I don't blame her. The school district doesn't support bus drivers like they used to which is really sad.
... he should have done what she did. Either deal with it becasue, as much as it sucks, it's part of the job or quit. Of course the blame is almost always on the parents. Good parents don't bring up kids who act that way.
**************************
mace1229, you mentioned, "...locally, seems like were in a downward spiral as a civilization." I was conversing with a friend via email the other day. She lives in wealthy, ultra liberal Sonoma County California, and I live in more modest income/ strongly conservative leaning El Dorado County, California. Socially, on the surface, they are two very socially different environments. But they have some things in common. I told her about how this area used to be a friendly place where people were generally courteous and relatively civilized, but that it has quickly grown due to development, and at the same time has become very fast paced, with many aggressive, angry, and rude people. She said, likewise, that Sonoma county is experiencing "its cancerous population growth" and she sees that many "insane drivers are another issue that plague us here," and that "people have lost all sense of decency and courtesy" where she lives.
These problems are becoming nearly ubiquitous-- fast growth due to over-population, and rude, discourteous behavior. If you know of a place that is not experiencing these things, I'd like to know about it. In general though, I am convinced (as many are) that society is breaking down, and this is only going to get worse.
I do feel bad for the driver, but at the same time there's lines you don't cross. And the rumor is that he either struck or choked a 4th grader, and he's being charged with aggravated assault so the charge makes sense. Just turn the bus off and walk away before you do that.
But I feel bad for him because he was driven to that point through no support for misbehaved students, while at the same time being responsible for their safety. If one of those kids caused him to crash because they were running around, yelling, screaming, throwing stuff, he'd probably be charged with something for "allowing" that environment to happen and be sued by the parents of any injured kids. But yet, the school and district did nothing to support him. These were known repeat offenders on the bus. Our kids actually enjoy riding the bus and think it's fun. This is the tutoring bus for kids who receive tutoring 2 days a week and it's a different route with a different driver and different kids. And the last couple weeks I've started picking them up from tutoring because they would have anxiety riding it and get home so late from the driver constantly having to pull over
The problem is the school and/or district is afraid to tell kids they aren't allowed back on the bus. We still have strict policies at school for behavior, but sounds like they've left the bus drivers on their own to figure it out.
global current events have little impact on my recent feelings because there seems to always be something horrible going on. But locally, seems like were in a downward spiral as a civilization. The smash and grabs, open shoplifting. My wife and I have both witnessed multiple times people filling up shopping carts at the grocery store or TJ Max and just walking out with it. No shame and they know the employees can't and won't stop them. I never saw that 2+ years ago.
Feeling kind of sick in my stomach after this last news. Yesterday I picked my son up on my way home. They both usually ride the same bus, one was sent home for getting sick (got a celiac flare up after halloween candy I think) and I just decided to pick the other up on my way home. They used to like the bus, but hate it this year because they say the kids are crazy on it and the driver has to keep stopping, and they get home late. Then we see the bus stop at our house, at first I figured he didn't notice our kids weren't on. But he just stayed there, after a few minutes my wife went out to see what was going on, the driver said he knew our kids weren't on, but had to take care of something. He began to yell at some kids to stay seated. He remained parked in front for about 15 minutes, it was really weird. We almost went out again, but then the bus left. This morning we read some news reports of a school bus where 10 year old kids could be seen pounding on the windows holding up signs asking for help and to call 911. So some people did, and police found the bus. They arrested the driver for assaulting one of the kids. We just found out it was the bus our kids take and all this happened minutes after they left our house. I'm assuming he lost his temper at one of the kids for acting up again. Obviously no excuse for it. So glad our kids didn't ride yesterday. But wish we had the foresight to do something.
I was never worried about bus drivers before. Now I'll probably pick them up every day.
That sucks and I feel bad for the driver because these days, kids can put the drivers through hell. I did a few years as a sub and, believe me, it's murder. But any driver is always wrong assaulting kid... (see below)...
global current events have little impact on my recent feelings because there seems to always be something horrible going on. But locally, seems like were in a downward spiral as a civilization. The smash and grabs, open shoplifting. My wife and I have both witnessed multiple times people filling up shopping carts at the grocery store or TJ Max and just walking out with it. No shame and they know the employees can't and won't stop them. I never saw that 2+ years ago.
Feeling kind of sick in my stomach after this last news. Yesterday I picked my son up on my way home. They both usually ride the same bus, one was sent home for getting sick (got a celiac flare up after halloween candy I think) and I just decided to pick the other up on my way home. They used to like the bus, but hate it this year because they say the kids are crazy on it and the driver has to keep stopping, and they get home late. Then we see the bus stop at our house, at first I figured he didn't notice our kids weren't on. But he just stayed there, after a few minutes my wife went out to see what was going on, the driver said he knew our kids weren't on, but had to take care of something. He began to yell at some kids to stay seated. He remained parked in front for about 15 minutes, it was really weird. We almost went out again, but then the bus left. This morning we read some news reports of a school bus where 10 year old kids could be seen pounding on the windows holding up signs asking for help and to call 911. So some people did, and police found the bus. They arrested the driver for assaulting one of the kids. We just found out it was the bus our kids take and all this happened minutes after they left our house. I'm assuming he lost his temper at one of the kids for acting up again. Obviously no excuse for it. So glad our kids didn't ride yesterday. But wish we had the foresight to do something.
I was never worried about bus drivers before. Now I'll probably pick them up every day.
Last year at our local school, one of the bus drivers was so fed up that one day she pulled the bus to the side of the road and called the bus garage. She told them to send another driver and that she quit on the spot. The bus was full of rowdy kids and she had enough. I remember fearing the bus driver when I was a kid. I never thought he was going to assault me but I didn't want him yelling at me. Maybe because I watched Nightmare on Elm Street 2... Nowadays, the kids run amuck and the bus drivers have very little they can do about it. Our school no longer disciplines kids like they used to. They don't feel like suspending kids for being bad on the bus is OK because it singles out the bad kids. It's pretty sad when a bus driver quits with a bus full of kids. For the record, she didn't just walk away from the bus but she just couldn't handle it anymore and I don't blame her. The school district doesn't support bus drivers like they used to which is really sad.
... he should have done what she did. Either deal with it becasue, as much as it sucks, it's part of the job or quit. Of course the blame is almost always on the parents. Good parents don't bring up kids who act that way.
**************************
mace1229, you mentioned, "...locally, seems like were in a downward spiral as a civilization." I was conversing with a friend via email the other day. She lives in wealthy, ultra liberal Sonoma County California, and I live in more modest income/ strongly conservative leaning El Dorado County, California. Socially, on the surface, they are two very socially different environments. But they have some things in common. I told her about how this area used to be a friendly place where people were generally courteous and relatively civilized, but that it has quickly grown due to development, and at the same time has become very fast paced, with many aggressive, angry, and rude people. She said, likewise, that Sonoma county is experiencing "its cancerous population growth" and she sees that many "insane drivers are another issue that plague us here," and that "people have lost all sense of decency and courtesy" where she lives.
These problems are becoming nearly ubiquitous-- fast growth due to over-population, and rude, discourteous behavior. If you know of a place that is not experiencing these things, I'd like to know about it. In general though, I am convinced (as many are) that society is breaking down, and this is only going to get worse.
I do feel bad for the driver, but at the same time there's lines you don't cross. And the rumor is that he either struck or choked a 4th grader, and he's being charged with aggravated assault so the charge makes sense. Just turn the bus off and walk away before you do that.
But I feel bad for him because he was driven to that point through no support for misbehaved students, while at the same time being responsible for their safety. If one of those kids caused him to crash because they were running around, yelling, screaming, throwing stuff, he'd probably be charged with something for "allowing" that environment to happen and be sued by the parents of any injured kids. But yet, the school and district did nothing to support him. These were known repeat offenders on the bus. Our kids actually enjoy riding the bus and think it's fun. This is the tutoring bus for kids who receive tutoring 2 days a week and it's a different route with a different driver and different kids. And the last couple weeks I've started picking them up from tutoring because they would have anxiety riding it and get home so late from the driver constantly having to pull over
The problem is the school and/or district is afraid to tell kids they aren't allowed back on the bus. We still have strict policies at school for behavior, but sounds like they've left the bus drivers on their own to figure it out.
We live in a rural area where school budgets are pretty low and they struggle at times to provides services, so this would be very taxing on the budget, but there should be mandatory bus monitors on every bus. That responsibility should not fall to the bus driver. They have enough of a job navigating the routes and safely interacting with traffic. That should be their sole focus, not maintaining order as they do so.
global current events have little impact on my recent feelings because there seems to always be something horrible going on. But locally, seems like were in a downward spiral as a civilization. The smash and grabs, open shoplifting. My wife and I have both witnessed multiple times people filling up shopping carts at the grocery store or TJ Max and just walking out with it. No shame and they know the employees can't and won't stop them. I never saw that 2+ years ago.
Feeling kind of sick in my stomach after this last news. Yesterday I picked my son up on my way home. They both usually ride the same bus, one was sent home for getting sick (got a celiac flare up after halloween candy I think) and I just decided to pick the other up on my way home. They used to like the bus, but hate it this year because they say the kids are crazy on it and the driver has to keep stopping, and they get home late. Then we see the bus stop at our house, at first I figured he didn't notice our kids weren't on. But he just stayed there, after a few minutes my wife went out to see what was going on, the driver said he knew our kids weren't on, but had to take care of something. He began to yell at some kids to stay seated. He remained parked in front for about 15 minutes, it was really weird. We almost went out again, but then the bus left. This morning we read some news reports of a school bus where 10 year old kids could be seen pounding on the windows holding up signs asking for help and to call 911. So some people did, and police found the bus. They arrested the driver for assaulting one of the kids. We just found out it was the bus our kids take and all this happened minutes after they left our house. I'm assuming he lost his temper at one of the kids for acting up again. Obviously no excuse for it. So glad our kids didn't ride yesterday. But wish we had the foresight to do something.
I was never worried about bus drivers before. Now I'll probably pick them up every day.
That sucks and I feel bad for the driver because these days, kids can put the drivers through hell. I did a few years as a sub and, believe me, it's murder. But any driver is always wrong assaulting kid... (see below)...
global current events have little impact on my recent feelings because there seems to always be something horrible going on. But locally, seems like were in a downward spiral as a civilization. The smash and grabs, open shoplifting. My wife and I have both witnessed multiple times people filling up shopping carts at the grocery store or TJ Max and just walking out with it. No shame and they know the employees can't and won't stop them. I never saw that 2+ years ago.
Feeling kind of sick in my stomach after this last news. Yesterday I picked my son up on my way home. They both usually ride the same bus, one was sent home for getting sick (got a celiac flare up after halloween candy I think) and I just decided to pick the other up on my way home. They used to like the bus, but hate it this year because they say the kids are crazy on it and the driver has to keep stopping, and they get home late. Then we see the bus stop at our house, at first I figured he didn't notice our kids weren't on. But he just stayed there, after a few minutes my wife went out to see what was going on, the driver said he knew our kids weren't on, but had to take care of something. He began to yell at some kids to stay seated. He remained parked in front for about 15 minutes, it was really weird. We almost went out again, but then the bus left. This morning we read some news reports of a school bus where 10 year old kids could be seen pounding on the windows holding up signs asking for help and to call 911. So some people did, and police found the bus. They arrested the driver for assaulting one of the kids. We just found out it was the bus our kids take and all this happened minutes after they left our house. I'm assuming he lost his temper at one of the kids for acting up again. Obviously no excuse for it. So glad our kids didn't ride yesterday. But wish we had the foresight to do something.
I was never worried about bus drivers before. Now I'll probably pick them up every day.
Last year at our local school, one of the bus drivers was so fed up that one day she pulled the bus to the side of the road and called the bus garage. She told them to send another driver and that she quit on the spot. The bus was full of rowdy kids and she had enough. I remember fearing the bus driver when I was a kid. I never thought he was going to assault me but I didn't want him yelling at me. Maybe because I watched Nightmare on Elm Street 2... Nowadays, the kids run amuck and the bus drivers have very little they can do about it. Our school no longer disciplines kids like they used to. They don't feel like suspending kids for being bad on the bus is OK because it singles out the bad kids. It's pretty sad when a bus driver quits with a bus full of kids. For the record, she didn't just walk away from the bus but she just couldn't handle it anymore and I don't blame her. The school district doesn't support bus drivers like they used to which is really sad.
... he should have done what she did. Either deal with it becasue, as much as it sucks, it's part of the job or quit. Of course the blame is almost always on the parents. Good parents don't bring up kids who act that way.
**************************
mace1229, you mentioned, "...locally, seems like were in a downward spiral as a civilization." I was conversing with a friend via email the other day. She lives in wealthy, ultra liberal Sonoma County California, and I live in more modest income/ strongly conservative leaning El Dorado County, California. Socially, on the surface, they are two very socially different environments. But they have some things in common. I told her about how this area used to be a friendly place where people were generally courteous and relatively civilized, but that it has quickly grown due to development, and at the same time has become very fast paced, with many aggressive, angry, and rude people. She said, likewise, that Sonoma county is experiencing "its cancerous population growth" and she sees that many "insane drivers are another issue that plague us here," and that "people have lost all sense of decency and courtesy" where she lives.
These problems are becoming nearly ubiquitous-- fast growth due to over-population, and rude, discourteous behavior. If you know of a place that is not experiencing these things, I'd like to know about it. In general though, I am convinced (as many are) that society is breaking down, and this is only going to get worse.
I do feel bad for the driver, but at the same time there's lines you don't cross. And the rumor is that he either struck or choked a 4th grader, and he's being charged with aggravated assault so the charge makes sense. Just turn the bus off and walk away before you do that.
But I feel bad for him because he was driven to that point through no support for misbehaved students, while at the same time being responsible for their safety. If one of those kids caused him to crash because they were running around, yelling, screaming, throwing stuff, he'd probably be charged with something for "allowing" that environment to happen and be sued by the parents of any injured kids. But yet, the school and district did nothing to support him. These were known repeat offenders on the bus. Our kids actually enjoy riding the bus and think it's fun. This is the tutoring bus for kids who receive tutoring 2 days a week and it's a different route with a different driver and different kids. And the last couple weeks I've started picking them up from tutoring because they would have anxiety riding it and get home so late from the driver constantly having to pull over
The problem is the school and/or district is afraid to tell kids they aren't allowed back on the bus. We still have strict policies at school for behavior, but sounds like they've left the bus drivers on their own to figure it out.
We live in a rural area where school budgets are pretty low and they struggle at times to provides services, so this would be very taxing on the budget, but there should be mandatory bus monitors on every bus. That responsibility should not fall to the bus driver. They have enough of a job navigating the routes and safely interacting with traffic. That should be their sole focus, not maintaining order as they do so.
I was told just a few years ago they had teachers ride the bus and paid them for it. But is not in the budget anymore. Teachers were happy to do it for a little extra pay and it helped with the issues. But they don't really need that. Obviously would help. But with video recordings on every bus, they just need to be willing to tell a family their child is no longer welcome on the bus. They're not willing to do that, probably afraid of parent complaints and accusations of an unfair system, so the problems continue. Give 2 written warnings to parents for certain offenses. Third time you're gone and figure out your own ride.
Glad those days are long gone for me! I just retired from hospital work and a few folks asked me what I would do? Would I go and get a job driving a school bus I just 😂😂😂
jesus greets me looks just like me ....
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curmudgeoness
Brigadoon, foodie capital Posts: 3,296
I accepted that everything is going to hell and there is nothing we can do about it quite a while back. Capitalism is failing, religion continues to create horrors, the climate is crashing, America is jumping the shark, Russia is essentially back to acting like the Soviet Union, China is trying to take over the world, more and more regions are becoming uninhabitable, and if the water wars haven't started to happen well within the next 50 years I'll be shocked. Que sera, sera is really my feeling about it at this point to be honest, along with a healthy amount of general disgust. What I don't have is hope. But I just don't have the will to keep agonizing over it anymore. I doubt I'd feel so ambivalent about everything if I had children... and also all that is why I don't have children. The one thing I do still agonize over is women's rights around the world, because it's not too late for that.
All very understandable feelings. I have to admit my level of hope has diminished and I'm also more prone to wanting to just stay busy and not think about it all too much. Not doing so well on the latter, but moving in that direction.
It amazes me that we are still in a situation where so many women are struggling for rights, even to a degree in North America. But it's especially bad in the Middle East, parts of Africa, Pakistan, etc. This world is so damn slow to learn.
It is shocking, and in the USA's case, it's moving backwards. :(
That is so crazy to me. Women made such great progress for years and a lot of us men were getting our heads straight about the whole thing. What on earth happened?
Speaking as a woman, here are my perceptions/ experiences:
1) As with other issues (marriage equality/ gay rights, general acknowledgement that racism is bad, denouncing antisemitism), certain people feel that their 'way of life' is being threatened, and they are lashing out against those they perceive as being responsible for the changes and/or threatening their piece of the pie.
1a) Also, all of those uppity folks need to be put back in their places.
2) Not as many men have their heads on straight, as you put it, Brian, as we need to make actual progress. I can assure you, misogyny is alive and well and manifesting in multiple forms in this country. I don't see backsliding as much as more light being shed (by younger women) on things that haven't changed a bit in the last, oh, four decades, at least. Sure, we get to vote and use credit cards, but so often it feels like behavior has to be changed one man at a time -- and that's exhausting.
I'm a white(ish), affluent, well-educated woman. My friends and peers are educated, mostly white, upper- and upper-middle class women. I'd guess, based on many conversations, that at least 85% of us have been sexually harassed and/or assaulted -- and we are NOT a high-risk population.
It's not just the big issues, though, like rape and abortion, that follow us through life. Many of my friends are surprised that I run outdoors -- and I'm not talking about trail runs (even I've been conditioned to think that there's a rapist hiding behind every tree in the woods), I mean just going for a neighborhood run. That's right, I know women who are scared to run outdoors; I also know women who are afraid to leave the house after dark.
When I have serious health concerns, I take my husband with me so I can be sure that the doctor will hear my concerns -- coming from my husband's mouth. Hell, I took husband to the ER last year -- middle-aged white man with an important job -- and the entire university cardiology department came to see him, from the department chair to the interns, every last MD; we're talking dozens of people. As I noted to him, I would have been lucky to get a triage nurse to check my BP instead of just telling me to go home, drink some water and try not to be so anxious. On the other hand, I've had creepy male doctors who were very eager to be proactive about giving me pelvic exams even though they weren't my OB/GYN.
I make up professions to put on my medical records (I have a child with special needs, that took priority over my career) so I won''t be dismissed as a "homemaker." When I go car shopping, the male salespeople get argumentative with me because I don't want to buy the car they think I should buy; I'm looking now, and my decision is going to be heavily influenced by the fact that at one dealership I've actually dealt with a woman, and she seems interested in actually selling me the car I want, instead of refusing to give me any info because I'm "not serious" or something. At one dealer, I was called "pushy" for standing too tall (never actually opened my mouth). In general, when we go shopping or deal with financial professionals, my husband tells them up front that I'm in charge, because I am. We watch to see who gets the hint and treats me as a sentient human -- those who can't pass that test don't get our business.
I built a kick-ass home gym because my temper is too short to deal with any more asshats who invade my space in public gyms: feet on my towels, taking dumbbells from between my legs, sticking their heads up my skirts, suddenly needing to lift right in the two square feet I'm occupying. My husband has been astonished by how men act as if I'm not even there (and I'm pretty jacked, so it's hard to miss me). They give him, red-faced and sweaty, a wide berth, when I'm the one they should be avoiding. His personal space is a given, mine is nonexistent.
Then there's the casual misogyny, seen in coverage of women's sports (ESPN dude yesterday claiming that "maybe four" of the professional women running the NY marathon were "actually elite," as if he could keep up with any of them, and commenting that the American women's field wasn't as "sexy" as usual because of the upcoming Olympic trials) or in daily life (men interrupting, mansplaining, claiming all the armrests, etc.; the guy who interrupted my tennis lesson because he wants to go see a concert in another city and can't figure out which seats at the ballpark would be the best, and this will just take a minute and it's really important to him). Or, you know, referring to a weak or cowardly person as a "pussy."
Or there's the not-so-casual misogyny: However old we are, it seems we're still being judged based on our "fuckability" -- our own interest in blowing the guy in question not being considered, of course. We're not bringing politics into this thread, but don't you think misogyny played a role in Hillary Clinton's defeat? I live in a red state right now, where I get the obtuse "imma let you have your tennis lesson, but I really need to ask this question before I buy concert tickets" behavior, but I lived in blue NJ for a number of years, where men would get in my face, angry and threatening, if I pushed back against them in any way.
It's not all men, true. I've raised some excellent young men, my husband is a good man, I know there are many good men out there. But there still are too damn many men who are on the wrong side of this fight. Maybe you could help recruit more allies?
I remember, several years ago, seeing something called "The "Rock" rule" -- ask yourself, would I behave the way I'm acting toward this woman if I was interacting with The Rock? Would you interrupt The Rock? Grab him by the hips to steer him out of your way? Snatch up his dumbbells in the gym as soon as he finished his last rep? Cut in front of him in line? No? Then don't do it to women (or, you know, anybody), either. That sounds a lot like "common courtesy," but with some added color to remind those who need reminding that women are people and are deserving of common courtesy, too.
Post edited by curmudgeoness on
All those who seek to destroy the liberties of a democratic nation ought to know that war is the surest and shortest means to accomplish it.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,769
I accepted that everything is going to hell and there is nothing we can do about it quite a while back. Capitalism is failing, religion continues to create horrors, the climate is crashing, America is jumping the shark, Russia is essentially back to acting like the Soviet Union, China is trying to take over the world, more and more regions are becoming uninhabitable, and if the water wars haven't started to happen well within the next 50 years I'll be shocked. Que sera, sera is really my feeling about it at this point to be honest, along with a healthy amount of general disgust. What I don't have is hope. But I just don't have the will to keep agonizing over it anymore. I doubt I'd feel so ambivalent about everything if I had children... and also all that is why I don't have children. The one thing I do still agonize over is women's rights around the world, because it's not too late for that.
All very understandable feelings. I have to admit my level of hope has diminished and I'm also more prone to wanting to just stay busy and not think about it all too much. Not doing so well on the latter, but moving in that direction.
It amazes me that we are still in a situation where so many women are struggling for rights, even to a degree in North America. But it's especially bad in the Middle East, parts of Africa, Pakistan, etc. This world is so damn slow to learn.
It is shocking, and in the USA's case, it's moving backwards. :(
That is so crazy to me. Women made such great progress for years and a lot of us men were getting our heads straight about the whole thing. What on earth happened?
Speaking as a woman, here are my perceptions/ experiences:
1) As with other issues (marriage equality/ gay rights, general acknowledgement that racism is bad, denouncing antisemitism), certain people feel that their 'way of life' is being threatened, and they are lashing out against those they perceive as being responsible for the changes and/or threatening their piece of the pie.
1a) Also, all of those uppity folks need to be put back in their places.
2) Not as many men have their heads on straight, as you put it, Brian, as we need to make actual progress. I can assure you, misogyny is alive and well and manifesting in multiple forms in this country. I don't see backsliding as much as more light being shed (by younger women) on things that haven't changed a bit in the last, oh, four decades, at least. Sure, we get to vote and use credit cards, but so often it feels like behavior has to be changed one man at a time -- and that's exhausting.
I'm a white(ish), affluent, well-educated woman. My friends and peers are educated, mostly white, upper- and upper-middle class women. I'd guess, based on many conversations, that at least 85% of us have been sexually harassed and/or assaulted -- and we are NOT a high-risk population.
It's not just the big issues, though, like rape and abortion, that follow us through life. Many of my friends are surprised that I run outdoors -- and I'm not talking about trail runs (even I've been conditioned to think that there's a rapist hiding behind every tree in the woods), I mean just going for a neighborhood run. That's right, I know women who are scared to run outdoors; I also know women who are afraid to leave the house after dark.
When I have serious health concerns, I take my husband with me so I can be sure that the doctor will hear my concerns -- coming from my husband's mouth. Hell, I took husband to the ER last year -- middle-aged white man with an important job -- and the entire university cardiology department came to see him, from the department chair to the interns, every last MD; we're talking dozens of people. As I noted to him, I would have been lucky to get a triage nurse to check my BP instead of just telling me to go home, drink some water and try not to be so anxious. On the other hand, I've had creepy male doctors who were very eager to be proactive about giving me pelvic exams even though they weren't my OB/GYN.
I make up professions to put on my medical records (I have a child with special needs, that took priority over my career) so I won''t be dismissed as a "homemaker." When I go car shopping, the male salespeople get argumentative with me because I don't want to buy the car they think I should buy; I'm looking now, and my decision is going to be heavily influenced by the fact that at one dealership I've actually dealt with a woman, and she seems interested in actually selling me the car I want, instead of refusing to give me any info because I'm "not serious" or something. At one dealer, I was called "pushy" for standing too tall (never actually opened my mouth). In general, when we go shopping or deal with financial professionals, my husband tells them up front that I'm in charge, because I am. We watch to see who gets the hint and treats me as a sentient human -- those who can't pass that test don't get our business.
I built a kick-ass home gym because my temper is too short to deal with any more asshats who invade my space in public gyms: feet on my towels, taking dumbbells from between my legs, sticking their heads up my skirts, suddenly needing to lift right in the two square feet I'm occupying. My husband has been astonished by how men act as if I'm not even there (and I'm pretty jacked, so it's hard to miss me). They give him, red-faced and sweaty, a wide berth, when I'm the one they should be avoiding. His personal space is a given, mine is nonexistent.
Then there's the casual misogyny, seen in coverage of women's sports (ESPN dude yesterday claiming that "maybe four" of the professional women running the NY marathon were "actually elite," as if he could keep up with any of them, and commenting that the American women's field wasn't as "sexy" as usual because of the upcoming Olympic trials) or in daily life (men interrupting, mansplaining, claiming all the armrests, etc.; the guy who interrupted my tennis lesson because he wants to go see a concert in another city and can't figure out which seats at the ballpark would be the best, and this will just take a minute and it's really important to him). Or, you know, referring to a weak or cowardly person as a "pussy."
Or there's the not-so-casual misogyny: However old we are, it seems we're still being judged based on our "fuckability" -- our own interest in blowing the guy in question not being considered, of course. We're not bringing politics into this thread, but don't you think misogyny played a role in Hillary Clinton's defeat? I live in a red state right now, where I get the obtuse "imma let you have your tennis lesson, but I really need to ask this question before I buy concert tickets" behavior, but I lived in blue NJ for a number of years, where men would get in my face, angry and threatening, if I pushed back against them in any way.
It's not all men, true. I've raised some excellent young men, my husband is a good man, I know there are many good men out there. But there still are too damn many men who are on the wrong side of this fight. Maybe you could help recruit more allies?
I remember, several years ago, seeing something called "The "Rock" rule" -- ask yourself, would I behave the way I'm acting toward this woman if I was interacting with The Rock? Would you interrupt The Rock? Grab him by the hips to steer him out of your way? Snatch up his dumbbells in the gym as soon as he finished his last rep? Cut in front of him in line? No? Then don't do it to women (or, you know, anybody), either. That sounds a lot like "common courtesy," but with some added color to remind those who need reminding that women are people and are deserving of common courtesy, too.
All true and all things I have witnessed. And then to think how it must be in countries where women are even more repressed. It's also so archaic. I'm grateful for having a strong sister who was like a mentor for me growing up. It's a shame more men don't have good role models like her.
I don't know exactly how I can help other than by writing. I've become fairly reclusive since pandemic and older (always adding the "er" lol) and the men I do know are like me, aware of these issues and non-abusers. I just don't interact with misogynists and racists. I worked with and hung out with one guy a long time ago who was a classic what used to be referred to as a "male chauvinist pig". I tried to get him to see how screwed up he was that way but finally gave up (again, many years ago) and have not seen him since. Just not my kind of people.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
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curmudgeoness
Brigadoon, foodie capital Posts: 3,296
I accepted that everything is going to hell and there is nothing we can do about it quite a while back. Capitalism is failing, religion continues to create horrors, the climate is crashing, America is jumping the shark, Russia is essentially back to acting like the Soviet Union, China is trying to take over the world, more and more regions are becoming uninhabitable, and if the water wars haven't started to happen well within the next 50 years I'll be shocked. Que sera, sera is really my feeling about it at this point to be honest, along with a healthy amount of general disgust. What I don't have is hope. But I just don't have the will to keep agonizing over it anymore. I doubt I'd feel so ambivalent about everything if I had children... and also all that is why I don't have children. The one thing I do still agonize over is women's rights around the world, because it's not too late for that.
All very understandable feelings. I have to admit my level of hope has diminished and I'm also more prone to wanting to just stay busy and not think about it all too much. Not doing so well on the latter, but moving in that direction.
It amazes me that we are still in a situation where so many women are struggling for rights, even to a degree in North America. But it's especially bad in the Middle East, parts of Africa, Pakistan, etc. This world is so damn slow to learn.
It is shocking, and in the USA's case, it's moving backwards. :(
That is so crazy to me. Women made such great progress for years and a lot of us men were getting our heads straight about the whole thing. What on earth happened?
Speaking as a woman, here are my perceptions/ experiences:
1) As with other issues (marriage equality/ gay rights, general acknowledgement that racism is bad, denouncing antisemitism), certain people feel that their 'way of life' is being threatened, and they are lashing out against those they perceive as being responsible for the changes and/or threatening their piece of the pie.
1a) Also, all of those uppity folks need to be put back in their places.
2) Not as many men have their heads on straight, as you put it, Brian, as we need to make actual progress. I can assure you, misogyny is alive and well and manifesting in multiple forms in this country. I don't see backsliding as much as more light being shed (by younger women) on things that haven't changed a bit in the last, oh, four decades, at least. Sure, we get to vote and use credit cards, but so often it feels like behavior has to be changed one man at a time -- and that's exhausting.
I'm a white(ish), affluent, well-educated woman. My friends and peers are educated, mostly white, upper- and upper-middle class women. I'd guess, based on many conversations, that at least 85% of us have been sexually harassed and/or assaulted -- and we are NOT a high-risk population.
It's not just the big issues, though, like rape and abortion, that follow us through life. Many of my friends are surprised that I run outdoors -- and I'm not talking about trail runs (even I've been conditioned to think that there's a rapist hiding behind every tree in the woods), I mean just going for a neighborhood run. That's right, I know women who are scared to run outdoors; I also know women who are afraid to leave the house after dark.
When I have serious health concerns, I take my husband with me so I can be sure that the doctor will hear my concerns -- coming from my husband's mouth. Hell, I took husband to the ER last year -- middle-aged white man with an important job -- and the entire university cardiology department came to see him, from the department chair to the interns, every last MD; we're talking dozens of people. As I noted to him, I would have been lucky to get a triage nurse to check my BP instead of just telling me to go home, drink some water and try not to be so anxious. On the other hand, I've had creepy male doctors who were very eager to be proactive about giving me pelvic exams even though they weren't my OB/GYN.
I make up professions to put on my medical records (I have a child with special needs, that took priority over my career) so I won''t be dismissed as a "homemaker." When I go car shopping, the male salespeople get argumentative with me because I don't want to buy the car they think I should buy; I'm looking now, and my decision is going to be heavily influenced by the fact that at one dealership I've actually dealt with a woman, and she seems interested in actually selling me the car I want, instead of refusing to give me any info because I'm "not serious" or something. At one dealer, I was called "pushy" for standing too tall (never actually opened my mouth). In general, when we go shopping or deal with financial professionals, my husband tells them up front that I'm in charge, because I am. We watch to see who gets the hint and treats me as a sentient human -- those who can't pass that test don't get our business.
I built a kick-ass home gym because my temper is too short to deal with any more asshats who invade my space in public gyms: feet on my towels, taking dumbbells from between my legs, sticking their heads up my skirts, suddenly needing to lift right in the two square feet I'm occupying. My husband has been astonished by how men act as if I'm not even there (and I'm pretty jacked, so it's hard to miss me). They give him, red-faced and sweaty, a wide berth, when I'm the one they should be avoiding. His personal space is a given, mine is nonexistent.
Then there's the casual misogyny, seen in coverage of women's sports (ESPN dude yesterday claiming that "maybe four" of the professional women running the NY marathon were "actually elite," as if he could keep up with any of them, and commenting that the American women's field wasn't as "sexy" as usual because of the upcoming Olympic trials) or in daily life (men interrupting, mansplaining, claiming all the armrests, etc.; the guy who interrupted my tennis lesson because he wants to go see a concert in another city and can't figure out which seats at the ballpark would be the best, and this will just take a minute and it's really important to him). Or, you know, referring to a weak or cowardly person as a "pussy."
Or there's the not-so-casual misogyny: However old we are, it seems we're still being judged based on our "fuckability" -- our own interest in blowing the guy in question not being considered, of course. We're not bringing politics into this thread, but don't you think misogyny played a role in Hillary Clinton's defeat? I live in a red state right now, where I get the obtuse "imma let you have your tennis lesson, but I really need to ask this question before I buy concert tickets" behavior, but I lived in blue NJ for a number of years, where men would get in my face, angry and threatening, if I pushed back against them in any way.
It's not all men, true. I've raised some excellent young men, my husband is a good man, I know there are many good men out there. But there still are too damn many men who are on the wrong side of this fight. Maybe you could help recruit more allies?
I remember, several years ago, seeing something called "The "Rock" rule" -- ask yourself, would I behave the way I'm acting toward this woman if I was interacting with The Rock? Would you interrupt The Rock? Grab him by the hips to steer him out of your way? Snatch up his dumbbells in the gym as soon as he finished his last rep? Cut in front of him in line? No? Then don't do it to women (or, you know, anybody), either. That sounds a lot like "common courtesy," but with some added color to remind those who need reminding that women are people and are deserving of common courtesy, too.
All true and all things I have witnessed. And then to think how it must be in countries where women are even more repressed. It's also so archaic. I'm grateful for having a strong sister who was like a mentor for me growing up. It's a shame more men don't have good role models like her.
I don't know exactly how I can help other than by writing. I've become fairly reclusive since pandemic and older (always adding the "er" lol) and the men I do know are like me, aware of these issues and non-abusers. I just don't interact with misogynists and racists. I worked with and hung out with one guy a long time ago who was a classic what used to be referred to as a "male chauvinist pig". I tried to get him to see how screwed up he was that way but finally gave up (again, many years ago) and have not seen him since. Just not my kind of people.
It's hard to know what to do -- so often it's one person at a time. But while it took my husband a while to get up to speed -- a few times I asked him, "Would another guy ever do this to you??" and he had to admit that, no, they wouldn't -- he has been able to carry what he has realized forward at work, where he is able to influence and set an example for a lot of people. And I have a (physically imposing) son who is not afraid to intervene when necessary or to speak up. So those little ripples can spread out and have an impact.
All those who seek to destroy the liberties of a democratic nation ought to know that war is the surest and shortest means to accomplish it.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,769
I accepted that everything is going to hell and there is nothing we can do about it quite a while back. Capitalism is failing, religion continues to create horrors, the climate is crashing, America is jumping the shark, Russia is essentially back to acting like the Soviet Union, China is trying to take over the world, more and more regions are becoming uninhabitable, and if the water wars haven't started to happen well within the next 50 years I'll be shocked. Que sera, sera is really my feeling about it at this point to be honest, along with a healthy amount of general disgust. What I don't have is hope. But I just don't have the will to keep agonizing over it anymore. I doubt I'd feel so ambivalent about everything if I had children... and also all that is why I don't have children. The one thing I do still agonize over is women's rights around the world, because it's not too late for that.
All very understandable feelings. I have to admit my level of hope has diminished and I'm also more prone to wanting to just stay busy and not think about it all too much. Not doing so well on the latter, but moving in that direction.
It amazes me that we are still in a situation where so many women are struggling for rights, even to a degree in North America. But it's especially bad in the Middle East, parts of Africa, Pakistan, etc. This world is so damn slow to learn.
It is shocking, and in the USA's case, it's moving backwards. :(
That is so crazy to me. Women made such great progress for years and a lot of us men were getting our heads straight about the whole thing. What on earth happened?
Speaking as a woman, here are my perceptions/ experiences:
1) As with other issues (marriage equality/ gay rights, general acknowledgement that racism is bad, denouncing antisemitism), certain people feel that their 'way of life' is being threatened, and they are lashing out against those they perceive as being responsible for the changes and/or threatening their piece of the pie.
1a) Also, all of those uppity folks need to be put back in their places.
2) Not as many men have their heads on straight, as you put it, Brian, as we need to make actual progress. I can assure you, misogyny is alive and well and manifesting in multiple forms in this country. I don't see backsliding as much as more light being shed (by younger women) on things that haven't changed a bit in the last, oh, four decades, at least. Sure, we get to vote and use credit cards, but so often it feels like behavior has to be changed one man at a time -- and that's exhausting.
I'm a white(ish), affluent, well-educated woman. My friends and peers are educated, mostly white, upper- and upper-middle class women. I'd guess, based on many conversations, that at least 85% of us have been sexually harassed and/or assaulted -- and we are NOT a high-risk population.
It's not just the big issues, though, like rape and abortion, that follow us through life. Many of my friends are surprised that I run outdoors -- and I'm not talking about trail runs (even I've been conditioned to think that there's a rapist hiding behind every tree in the woods), I mean just going for a neighborhood run. That's right, I know women who are scared to run outdoors; I also know women who are afraid to leave the house after dark.
When I have serious health concerns, I take my husband with me so I can be sure that the doctor will hear my concerns -- coming from my husband's mouth. Hell, I took husband to the ER last year -- middle-aged white man with an important job -- and the entire university cardiology department came to see him, from the department chair to the interns, every last MD; we're talking dozens of people. As I noted to him, I would have been lucky to get a triage nurse to check my BP instead of just telling me to go home, drink some water and try not to be so anxious. On the other hand, I've had creepy male doctors who were very eager to be proactive about giving me pelvic exams even though they weren't my OB/GYN.
I make up professions to put on my medical records (I have a child with special needs, that took priority over my career) so I won''t be dismissed as a "homemaker." When I go car shopping, the male salespeople get argumentative with me because I don't want to buy the car they think I should buy; I'm looking now, and my decision is going to be heavily influenced by the fact that at one dealership I've actually dealt with a woman, and she seems interested in actually selling me the car I want, instead of refusing to give me any info because I'm "not serious" or something. At one dealer, I was called "pushy" for standing too tall (never actually opened my mouth). In general, when we go shopping or deal with financial professionals, my husband tells them up front that I'm in charge, because I am. We watch to see who gets the hint and treats me as a sentient human -- those who can't pass that test don't get our business.
I built a kick-ass home gym because my temper is too short to deal with any more asshats who invade my space in public gyms: feet on my towels, taking dumbbells from between my legs, sticking their heads up my skirts, suddenly needing to lift right in the two square feet I'm occupying. My husband has been astonished by how men act as if I'm not even there (and I'm pretty jacked, so it's hard to miss me). They give him, red-faced and sweaty, a wide berth, when I'm the one they should be avoiding. His personal space is a given, mine is nonexistent.
Then there's the casual misogyny, seen in coverage of women's sports (ESPN dude yesterday claiming that "maybe four" of the professional women running the NY marathon were "actually elite," as if he could keep up with any of them, and commenting that the American women's field wasn't as "sexy" as usual because of the upcoming Olympic trials) or in daily life (men interrupting, mansplaining, claiming all the armrests, etc.; the guy who interrupted my tennis lesson because he wants to go see a concert in another city and can't figure out which seats at the ballpark would be the best, and this will just take a minute and it's really important to him). Or, you know, referring to a weak or cowardly person as a "pussy."
Or there's the not-so-casual misogyny: However old we are, it seems we're still being judged based on our "fuckability" -- our own interest in blowing the guy in question not being considered, of course. We're not bringing politics into this thread, but don't you think misogyny played a role in Hillary Clinton's defeat? I live in a red state right now, where I get the obtuse "imma let you have your tennis lesson, but I really need to ask this question before I buy concert tickets" behavior, but I lived in blue NJ for a number of years, where men would get in my face, angry and threatening, if I pushed back against them in any way.
It's not all men, true. I've raised some excellent young men, my husband is a good man, I know there are many good men out there. But there still are too damn many men who are on the wrong side of this fight. Maybe you could help recruit more allies?
I remember, several years ago, seeing something called "The "Rock" rule" -- ask yourself, would I behave the way I'm acting toward this woman if I was interacting with The Rock? Would you interrupt The Rock? Grab him by the hips to steer him out of your way? Snatch up his dumbbells in the gym as soon as he finished his last rep? Cut in front of him in line? No? Then don't do it to women (or, you know, anybody), either. That sounds a lot like "common courtesy," but with some added color to remind those who need reminding that women are people and are deserving of common courtesy, too.
All true and all things I have witnessed. And then to think how it must be in countries where women are even more repressed. It's also so archaic. I'm grateful for having a strong sister who was like a mentor for me growing up. It's a shame more men don't have good role models like her.
I don't know exactly how I can help other than by writing. I've become fairly reclusive since pandemic and older (always adding the "er" lol) and the men I do know are like me, aware of these issues and non-abusers. I just don't interact with misogynists and racists. I worked with and hung out with one guy a long time ago who was a classic what used to be referred to as a "male chauvinist pig". I tried to get him to see how screwed up he was that way but finally gave up (again, many years ago) and have not seen him since. Just not my kind of people.
It's hard to know what to do -- so often it's one person at a time. But while it took my husband a while to get up to speed -- a few times I asked him, "Would another guy ever do this to you??" and he had to admit that, no, they wouldn't -- he has been able to carry what he has realized forward at work, where he is able to influence and set an example for a lot of people. And I have a (physically imposing) son who is not afraid to intervene when necessary or to speak up. So those little ripples can spread out and have an impact.
Kudos to your husband for good progress. And cautious kudos to you son. Physically imposing men can be a protective asset but they can also be frightening. I am not ashamed to admit they frighten me-- but then I've also been assaulted twice as an adult, not to mention a number of times as a kid including being held underwater until almost out of breath and threatened by a kid with a butcher knife.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
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curmudgeoness
Brigadoon, foodie capital Posts: 3,296
Mine is a gentle soul with a generous heart; he intervenes to help women and queer/trans friends who are being targeted. :-) My guys are good men and good humans. I am sorry to hear that you had those experiences.
All those who seek to destroy the liberties of a democratic nation ought to know that war is the surest and shortest means to accomplish it.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,769
Mine is a gentle soul with a generous heart; he intervenes to help women and queer/trans friends who are being targeted. :-) My guys are good men and good humans. I am sorry to hear that you had those experiences.
Hey, no worries, as a fine poet once said, "I'm still alive!"
I'm glad the men in you life are good souls. God, Buddha, Mother Earth, the no-god, or god of your choice, bless them!
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
global current events have little impact on my recent feelings because there seems to always be something horrible going on. But locally, seems like were in a downward spiral as a civilization. The smash and grabs, open shoplifting. My wife and I have both witnessed multiple times people filling up shopping carts at the grocery store or TJ Max and just walking out with it. No shame and they know the employees can't and won't stop them. I never saw that 2+ years ago.
Feeling kind of sick in my stomach after this last news. Yesterday I picked my son up on my way home. They both usually ride the same bus, one was sent home for getting sick (got a celiac flare up after halloween candy I think) and I just decided to pick the other up on my way home. They used to like the bus, but hate it this year because they say the kids are crazy on it and the driver has to keep stopping, and they get home late. Then we see the bus stop at our house, at first I figured he didn't notice our kids weren't on. But he just stayed there, after a few minutes my wife went out to see what was going on, the driver said he knew our kids weren't on, but had to take care of something. He began to yell at some kids to stay seated. He remained parked in front for about 15 minutes, it was really weird. We almost went out again, but then the bus left. This morning we read some news reports of a school bus where 10 year old kids could be seen pounding on the windows holding up signs asking for help and to call 911. So some people did, and police found the bus. They arrested the driver for assaulting one of the kids. We just found out it was the bus our kids take and all this happened minutes after they left our house. I'm assuming he lost his temper at one of the kids for acting up again. Obviously no excuse for it. So glad our kids didn't ride yesterday. But wish we had the foresight to do something.
I was never worried about bus drivers before. Now I'll probably pick them up every day.
That sucks and I feel bad for the driver because these days, kids can put the drivers through hell. I did a few years as a sub and, believe me, it's murder. But any driver is always wrong assaulting kid... (see below)...
global current events have little impact on my recent feelings because there seems to always be something horrible going on. But locally, seems like were in a downward spiral as a civilization. The smash and grabs, open shoplifting. My wife and I have both witnessed multiple times people filling up shopping carts at the grocery store or TJ Max and just walking out with it. No shame and they know the employees can't and won't stop them. I never saw that 2+ years ago.
Feeling kind of sick in my stomach after this last news. Yesterday I picked my son up on my way home. They both usually ride the same bus, one was sent home for getting sick (got a celiac flare up after halloween candy I think) and I just decided to pick the other up on my way home. They used to like the bus, but hate it this year because they say the kids are crazy on it and the driver has to keep stopping, and they get home late. Then we see the bus stop at our house, at first I figured he didn't notice our kids weren't on. But he just stayed there, after a few minutes my wife went out to see what was going on, the driver said he knew our kids weren't on, but had to take care of something. He began to yell at some kids to stay seated. He remained parked in front for about 15 minutes, it was really weird. We almost went out again, but then the bus left. This morning we read some news reports of a school bus where 10 year old kids could be seen pounding on the windows holding up signs asking for help and to call 911. So some people did, and police found the bus. They arrested the driver for assaulting one of the kids. We just found out it was the bus our kids take and all this happened minutes after they left our house. I'm assuming he lost his temper at one of the kids for acting up again. Obviously no excuse for it. So glad our kids didn't ride yesterday. But wish we had the foresight to do something.
I was never worried about bus drivers before. Now I'll probably pick them up every day.
Last year at our local school, one of the bus drivers was so fed up that one day she pulled the bus to the side of the road and called the bus garage. She told them to send another driver and that she quit on the spot. The bus was full of rowdy kids and she had enough. I remember fearing the bus driver when I was a kid. I never thought he was going to assault me but I didn't want him yelling at me. Maybe because I watched Nightmare on Elm Street 2... Nowadays, the kids run amuck and the bus drivers have very little they can do about it. Our school no longer disciplines kids like they used to. They don't feel like suspending kids for being bad on the bus is OK because it singles out the bad kids. It's pretty sad when a bus driver quits with a bus full of kids. For the record, she didn't just walk away from the bus but she just couldn't handle it anymore and I don't blame her. The school district doesn't support bus drivers like they used to which is really sad.
... he should have done what she did. Either deal with it becasue, as much as it sucks, it's part of the job or quit. Of course the blame is almost always on the parents. Good parents don't bring up kids who act that way.
**************************
mace1229, you mentioned, "...locally, seems like were in a downward spiral as a civilization." I was conversing with a friend via email the other day. She lives in wealthy, ultra liberal Sonoma County California, and I live in more modest income/ strongly conservative leaning El Dorado County, California. Socially, on the surface, they are two very socially different environments. But they have some things in common. I told her about how this area used to be a friendly place where people were generally courteous and relatively civilized, but that it has quickly grown due to development, and at the same time has become very fast paced, with many aggressive, angry, and rude people. She said, likewise, that Sonoma county is experiencing "its cancerous population growth" and she sees that many "insane drivers are another issue that plague us here," and that "people have lost all sense of decency and courtesy" where she lives.
These problems are becoming nearly ubiquitous-- fast growth due to over-population, and rude, discourteous behavior. If you know of a place that is not experiencing these things, I'd like to know about it. In general though, I am convinced (as many are) that society is breaking down, and this is only going to get worse.
I do feel bad for the driver, but at the same time there's lines you don't cross. And the rumor is that he either struck or choked a 4th grader, and he's being charged with aggravated assault so the charge makes sense. Just turn the bus off and walk away before you do that.
But I feel bad for him because he was driven to that point through no support for misbehaved students, while at the same time being responsible for their safety. If one of those kids caused him to crash because they were running around, yelling, screaming, throwing stuff, he'd probably be charged with something for "allowing" that environment to happen and be sued by the parents of any injured kids. But yet, the school and district did nothing to support him. These were known repeat offenders on the bus. Our kids actually enjoy riding the bus and think it's fun. This is the tutoring bus for kids who receive tutoring 2 days a week and it's a different route with a different driver and different kids. And the last couple weeks I've started picking them up from tutoring because they would have anxiety riding it and get home so late from the driver constantly having to pull over
The problem is the school and/or district is afraid to tell kids they aren't allowed back on the bus. We still have strict policies at school for behavior, but sounds like they've left the bus drivers on their own to figure it out.
We live in a rural area where school budgets are pretty low and they struggle at times to provides services, so this would be very taxing on the budget, but there should be mandatory bus monitors on every bus. That responsibility should not fall to the bus driver. They have enough of a job navigating the routes and safely interacting with traffic. That should be their sole focus, not maintaining order as they do so.
I was told just a few years ago they had teachers ride the bus and paid them for it. But is not in the budget anymore. Teachers were happy to do it for a little extra pay and it helped with the issues. But they don't really need that. Obviously would help. But with video recordings on every bus, they just need to be willing to tell a family their child is no longer welcome on the bus. They're not willing to do that, probably afraid of parent complaints and accusations of an unfair system, so the problems continue. Give 2 written warnings to parents for certain offenses. Third time you're gone and figure out your own ride.
This is where the problems lies, 100%. and for good reason. At some point in the 90s parents decided they knew better than the educators in the schools, and started being so controlling in various ways that the administrations had to start bending to their will instead of the kids bending to theirs. My dad was an elementary school principal, and a really good one who the kids and parents liked, and even then, he retired early at 57 specifically because he felt that he was being forced by his superiors to hand too much of the reins to whining, demanding, idiot parents who thought that the sun rises and sets on their kids. Basically, that was about the time the patients started running the asylum, and my dad wanted absolutely no part of it, because he knew he could no longer do his job the way it needed to be done for the good of the students.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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I'm glad you mentioned Handmaiden's Tale. Though disturbing, I'm told it's an excellent book. On my "to read" list it goes.
But locally, seems like were in a downward spiral as a civilization. The smash and grabs, open shoplifting. My wife and I have both witnessed multiple times people filling up shopping carts at the grocery store or TJ Max and just walking out with it. No shame and they know the employees can't and won't stop them. I never saw that 2+ years ago.
Feeling kind of sick in my stomach after this last news. Yesterday I picked my son up on my way home. They both usually ride the same bus, one was sent home for getting sick (got a celiac flare up after halloween candy I think) and I just decided to pick the other up on my way home. They used to like the bus, but hate it this year because they say the kids are crazy on it and the driver has to keep stopping, and they get home late.
Then we see the bus stop at our house, at first I figured he didn't notice our kids weren't on. But he just stayed there, after a few minutes my wife went out to see what was going on, the driver said he knew our kids weren't on, but had to take care of something. He began to yell at some kids to stay seated. He remained parked in front for about 15 minutes, it was really weird. We almost went out again, but then the bus left.
This morning we read some news reports of a school bus where 10 year old kids could be seen pounding on the windows holding up signs asking for help and to call 911. So some people did, and police found the bus. They arrested the driver for assaulting one of the kids. We just found out it was the bus our kids take and all this happened minutes after they left our house. I'm assuming he lost his temper at one of the kids for acting up again. Obviously no excuse for it. So glad our kids didn't ride yesterday. But wish we had the foresight to do something.
I was never worried about bus drivers before. Now I'll probably pick them up every day.
There are no kings inside the gates of eden
But I feel bad for him because he was driven to that point through no support for misbehaved students, while at the same time being responsible for their safety. If one of those kids caused him to crash because they were running around, yelling, screaming, throwing stuff, he'd probably be charged with something for "allowing" that environment to happen and be sued by the parents of any injured kids. But yet, the school and district did nothing to support him. These were known repeat offenders on the bus.
Our kids actually enjoy riding the bus and think it's fun. This is the tutoring bus for kids who receive tutoring 2 days a week and it's a different route with a different driver and different kids. And the last couple weeks I've started picking them up from tutoring because they would have anxiety riding it and get home so late from the driver constantly having to pull over
The problem is the school and/or district is afraid to tell kids they aren't allowed back on the bus. We still have strict policies at school for behavior, but sounds like they've left the bus drivers on their own to figure it out.
But they don't really need that. Obviously would help. But with video recordings on every bus, they just need to be willing to tell a family their child is no longer welcome on the bus. They're not willing to do that, probably afraid of parent complaints and accusations of an unfair system, so the problems continue.
Give 2 written warnings to parents for certain offenses. Third time you're gone and figure out your own ride.
If a rider is consistently causing trouble they shouldn't be allowed to ride. No reason to stress out the driver for a multitude of reasons.
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It's hard to know what to do -- so often it's one person at a time. But while it took my husband a while to get up to speed -- a few times I asked him, "Would another guy ever do this to you??" and he had to admit that, no, they wouldn't -- he has been able to carry what he has realized forward at work, where he is able to influence and set an example for a lot of people. And I have a (physically imposing) son who is not afraid to intervene when necessary or to speak up. So those little ripples can spread out and have an impact.
Kudos to your husband for good progress. And cautious kudos to you son. Physically imposing men can be a protective asset but they can also be frightening. I am not ashamed to admit they frighten me-- but then I've also been assaulted twice as an adult, not to mention a number of times as a kid including being held underwater until almost out of breath and threatened by a kid with a butcher knife.
This is where the problems lies, 100%. and for good reason. At some point in the 90s parents decided they knew better than the educators in the schools, and started being so controlling in various ways that the administrations had to start bending to their will instead of the kids bending to theirs. My dad was an elementary school principal, and a really good one who the kids and parents liked, and even then, he retired early at 57 specifically because he felt that he was being forced by his superiors to hand too much of the reins to whining, demanding, idiot parents who thought that the sun rises and sets on their kids. Basically, that was about the time the patients started running the asylum, and my dad wanted absolutely no part of it, because he knew he could no longer do his job the way it needed to be done for the good of the students.