#46 President Joe Biden
Comments
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Honestly that's not predictive of loan performance. The single factor that is most predictive long term is graduation status. It's intuitive. People who graduate value the loan, have something to show and by and large are more gainfully employed. Those who drop out have a high delinquency rate.cincybearcat said:
I think your declared major should play into the risk profilemrussel1 said:
All true, but still not part of the Biden program. I would likely argue that the rates, by and large, are not predatory. Particularity the ones from Discover, SoFi, Citi, etc. Since they are not subsidized,, they have to match the risk profile. And they are not a public service, they are for profit. So they should be several points higher than subsidized.Halifax2TheMax said:
When the government got out of the student loan business and privatized it, the interest rates were no longer as low as they had been. That was one of the raging debates at the time. There are still government loan programs but most people are income earned out, via parent income tax return data for previous two years. Which puts you in the private loan market with higher interest rates.mrussel1 said:
You're conflating two things. Private student loans are not part of forgiveness, only federal. That's why I say the rates are fair, because they are linked to the discount rate. I believe it's still less than 5% for this year.Halifax2TheMax said:Some states have made two year community colleges free. Whaaaaa, they didn’t do it when I went to college. Could have gotten all my required courses out of the way and saved $8K. Whaaaaaaa, make those freeloaders pay something!
College tuition cost increases can be directly related to the federal and state governments cutting aid to them, beginning with the Raygun administration, particularly Pell Grants and the privatization of student loans. And I’d call 8%-9% interest rates when prime was 4%-5% predatory, higher if you had poor credit, no co-signer and/or a lack of assets. Having an educated and critical thinking populace is bad politics when your politics suck.
Post edited by mrussel1 on0 -
Graduating doesn't mean being able to pay off the loan. I bet they have all the data they need to apply the correct risk profile by major. And if you have to provide your grades each semester...they could adjust as you go. You could earn a lower rate as you show you will graduate.mrussel1 said:
Honestly that's not predictive of loan performance. The single factor that is most predictive long term is graduation status. It's intuitive. People who graduate value the loan, have something to show and by and large are more gainfully employed. Those who drop out have a high delinquency rate.cincybearcat said:
I think your declared major should play into the risk profilemrussel1 said:
All true, but still not part of the Biden program. I would likely argue that the rates, by and large, are not predatory. Particularity the ones from Discover, SoFi, Citi, etc. Since they are not subsidized,, they have to match the risk profile. And they are not a public service, they are for profit. So they should be several points higher than subsidized.Halifax2TheMax said:
When the government got out of the student loan business and privatized it, the interest rates were no longer as low as they had been. That was one of the raging debates at the time. There are still government loan programs but most people are income earned out, via parent income tax return data for previous two years. Which puts you in the private loan market with higher interest rates.mrussel1 said:
You're conflating two things. Private student loans are not part of forgiveness, only federal. That's why I say the rates are fair, because they are linked to the discount rate. I believe it's still less than 5% for this year.Halifax2TheMax said:Some states have made two year community colleges free. Whaaaaa, they didn’t do it when I went to college. Could have gotten all my required courses out of the way and saved $8K. Whaaaaaaa, make those freeloaders pay something!
College tuition cost increases can be directly related to the federal and state governments cutting aid to them, beginning with the Raygun administration, particularly Pell Grants and the privatization of student loans. And I’d call 8%-9% interest rates when prime was 4%-5% predatory, higher if you had poor credit, no co-signer and/or a lack of assets. Having an educated and critical thinking populace is bad politics when your politics suck.
But my real response to your statement is...duh.
no kidding hippiemom = goodness0 -
I'm telling you this because I'm deeply familiar with bad rate modeling performance for student loans. Majors do not matter. Trade school vs university does. Graduation status does. But actual major has no material difference in delinquency or default. It may be counterintuitive, but I have 15+ years of data that we've analyzed.cincybearcat said:
Graduating doesn't mean being able to pay off the loan. I bet they have all the data they need to apply the correct risk profile by major. And if you have to provide your grades each semester...they could adjust as you go. You could earn a lower rate as you show you will graduate.mrussel1 said:
Honestly that's not predictive of loan performance. The single factor that is most predictive long term is graduation status. It's intuitive. People who graduate value the loan, have something to show and by and large are more gainfully employed. Those who drop out have a high delinquency rate.cincybearcat said:
I think your declared major should play into the risk profilemrussel1 said:
All true, but still not part of the Biden program. I would likely argue that the rates, by and large, are not predatory. Particularity the ones from Discover, SoFi, Citi, etc. Since they are not subsidized,, they have to match the risk profile. And they are not a public service, they are for profit. So they should be several points higher than subsidized.Halifax2TheMax said:
When the government got out of the student loan business and privatized it, the interest rates were no longer as low as they had been. That was one of the raging debates at the time. There are still government loan programs but most people are income earned out, via parent income tax return data for previous two years. Which puts you in the private loan market with higher interest rates.mrussel1 said:
You're conflating two things. Private student loans are not part of forgiveness, only federal. That's why I say the rates are fair, because they are linked to the discount rate. I believe it's still less than 5% for this year.Halifax2TheMax said:Some states have made two year community colleges free. Whaaaaa, they didn’t do it when I went to college. Could have gotten all my required courses out of the way and saved $8K. Whaaaaaaa, make those freeloaders pay something!
College tuition cost increases can be directly related to the federal and state governments cutting aid to them, beginning with the Raygun administration, particularly Pell Grants and the privatization of student loans. And I’d call 8%-9% interest rates when prime was 4%-5% predatory, higher if you had poor credit, no co-signer and/or a lack of assets. Having an educated and critical thinking populace is bad politics when your politics suck.
But my real response to your statement is...duh. no kidding
This is non-subsidized.
0 -
Any data on who pays it off? I bet you can’t know.mrussel1 said:
I'm telling you this because I'm deeply familiar with bad rate modeling performance for student loans. Majors do not matter. Trade school vs university does. Graduation status does. But actual major has no material difference in delinquency or default. It may be counterintuitive, but I have 15+ years of data that we've analyzed.cincybearcat said:
Graduating doesn't mean being able to pay off the loan. I bet they have all the data they need to apply the correct risk profile by major. And if you have to provide your grades each semester...they could adjust as you go. You could earn a lower rate as you show you will graduate.mrussel1 said:
Honestly that's not predictive of loan performance. The single factor that is most predictive long term is graduation status. It's intuitive. People who graduate value the loan, have something to show and by and large are more gainfully employed. Those who drop out have a high delinquency rate.cincybearcat said:
I think your declared major should play into the risk profilemrussel1 said:
All true, but still not part of the Biden program. I would likely argue that the rates, by and large, are not predatory. Particularity the ones from Discover, SoFi, Citi, etc. Since they are not subsidized,, they have to match the risk profile. And they are not a public service, they are for profit. So they should be several points higher than subsidized.Halifax2TheMax said:
When the government got out of the student loan business and privatized it, the interest rates were no longer as low as they had been. That was one of the raging debates at the time. There are still government loan programs but most people are income earned out, via parent income tax return data for previous two years. Which puts you in the private loan market with higher interest rates.mrussel1 said:
You're conflating two things. Private student loans are not part of forgiveness, only federal. That's why I say the rates are fair, because they are linked to the discount rate. I believe it's still less than 5% for this year.Halifax2TheMax said:Some states have made two year community colleges free. Whaaaaa, they didn’t do it when I went to college. Could have gotten all my required courses out of the way and saved $8K. Whaaaaaaa, make those freeloaders pay something!
College tuition cost increases can be directly related to the federal and state governments cutting aid to them, beginning with the Raygun administration, particularly Pell Grants and the privatization of student loans. And I’d call 8%-9% interest rates when prime was 4%-5% predatory, higher if you had poor credit, no co-signer and/or a lack of assets. Having an educated and critical thinking populace is bad politics when your politics suck.
But my real response to your statement is...duh. no kidding
This is non-subsidized.
I find that amazing. So someone with an art history major vs say engineering and there is no difference on ability to pay? It’s hard to believe. Unless art history major is subsidized by parentshippiemom = goodness0 -
Why is attending a 2 year school a waste of time?HughFreakingDillon said:
first year of college for $300?mace1229 said:
That's not really true. We have subsidized higher ed. Its community college.HughFreakingDillon said:
you do realize millions upon millions of the rock's fans, um, I mean, people, don't have those options, right? to lift people out of poverty, you have to lend them a hand, not a boulder attached to their ankle. high interest student loans are the ONLY way for a high percentage of people to get an education and attempt to get out of poverty/low income.mace1229 said:
I don't see it as moving forward. It was a decision they made. If I paid too much for a car and decide now the payments are tough, should I get bailed out? I see no difference.tbergs said:
When society moves forward, it's always the older generation complaining and asking, what about me, even though they were once the group who also benefitted from some change the previous generation didn't have. They always conveniently forgot about their special privileges. Move on. I didn't get paternity leave, but now the state allows men paid leave for 6 weeks. Sucks I didn't get that benefit, but I'm glad it's been changed for future parents.mace1229 said:
So adults who agreed to take out a loan, went to the school of their choice, are getting free money now?mickeyrat said:
What about families that went without so their kids wouldn't be in debt?
What about those who chose a school for financials reasons to save money?
What about those who joined the military to cover the cost?
What about those who picked a different route so they wouldn't be in debt?
When do they get their free money?
You can make a choice about where to go, going to Jr college first, living at home, etc. College really doesn't have to be expensive. If you chose to make it expense, that's fine. But it was still a decision you made to take out loans so you can have that dorm experience in a 4 year college.
Others can get the same degree by going to a 2 year college first, not living in a dorm, and spending a small fraction.
Community college is easier to get into than a 4 year school. they are all over the country. Often in rural areas and more accessible than many 4 years. I did my first year there, it cost me $12 per unit. Got my first year of college out of the way for about $300. I looked it up a few months ago when I was having a similar conversation, and the cost hasn't gone up much.
I just find it hard to sympathize with someone's debt who chose to go to a 4 year school and never considered other options such as a 2 year first, then transfer. There are 2 year schools all over. But so few even consider it. They go straight to a 4 year, then complain about the cost.
Pick a school that suits your needs and within your budget. If cost is a factor, go to community college first. You get the same diploma in the end.
And that's just one example. There are other ways to avoid going into massive debt for school. But if you're set on a specific school and insist on spending all 4 years there and need to take out loans to make it happen, then yes it gets very expensive.
so you want people to waste time in a 2 or 4 year college for a degree they have no interest in, just so they can get a low paying job so eventually they can afford to go to university? and start a family at what, 45 years old? that means the system is broken.
Go for 2 years, transfer to a 4 year. Transfer to say Clemson University and your degree is exactly the same as every other kid who went there for all 4 years. But you paid half price. That’s not a waste of time.
Literally just getting all your GE classes out of the way will save you tons.Post edited by mace1229 on0 -
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A semester credit, or unit, same thing.mrussel1 said:
What's a "unit"?mace1229 said:
That's not really true. We have subsidized higher ed. Its community college.HughFreakingDillon said:
you do realize millions upon millions of the rock's fans, um, I mean, people, don't have those options, right? to lift people out of poverty, you have to lend them a hand, not a boulder attached to their ankle. high interest student loans are the ONLY way for a high percentage of people to get an education and attempt to get out of poverty/low income.mace1229 said:
I don't see it as moving forward. It was a decision they made. If I paid too much for a car and decide now the payments are tough, should I get bailed out? I see no difference.tbergs said:
When society moves forward, it's always the older generation complaining and asking, what about me, even though they were once the group who also benefitted from some change the previous generation didn't have. They always conveniently forgot about their special privileges. Move on. I didn't get paternity leave, but now the state allows men paid leave for 6 weeks. Sucks I didn't get that benefit, but I'm glad it's been changed for future parents.mace1229 said:
So adults who agreed to take out a loan, went to the school of their choice, are getting free money now?mickeyrat said:
What about families that went without so their kids wouldn't be in debt?
What about those who chose a school for financials reasons to save money?
What about those who joined the military to cover the cost?
What about those who picked a different route so they wouldn't be in debt?
When do they get their free money?
You can make a choice about where to go, going to Jr college first, living at home, etc. College really doesn't have to be expensive. If you chose to make it expense, that's fine. But it was still a decision you made to take out loans so you can have that dorm experience in a 4 year college.
Others can get the same degree by going to a 2 year college first, not living in a dorm, and spending a small fraction.
Community college is easier to get into than a 4 year school. they are all over the country. Often in rural areas and more accessible than many 4 years. I did my first year there, it cost me $12 per unit. Got my first year of college out of the way for about $300. I looked it up a few months ago when I was having a similar conversation, and the cost hasn't gone up much.
I just find it hard to sympathize with someone's debt who chose to go to a 4 year school and never considered other options such as a 2 year first, then transfer. There are 2 year schools all over. But so few even consider it. They go straight to a 4 year, then complain about the cost.
Pick a school that suits your needs and within your budget. If cost is a factor, go to community college first. You get the same diploma in the end.
And that's just one example. There are other ways to avoid going into massive debt for school. But if you're set on a specific school and insist on spending all 4 years there and need to take out loans to make it happen, then yes it gets very expensive.0 -
The 12 month is the only catch. But even then, when I did it, you split a 2 bedroom apartment 4 ways, costs like $400 in rent. Most meals involve chicken and rice, Mac n cheese or cereal, Maybe not a huge saver, but seemed like it was cheaper. And you get an apartment, not a 10x10 room and a community shower.mrussel1 said:
I wish that were true. My son's off campus bills are brutal. Plus you have to take 12 month leases.mace1229 said:
Room and board is a joke. It's cheaper to live off campus a lot of the time, and much better conditions.Gern Blansten said:
I've told this story before somewhere on here....static111 said:
Many people have to take out loans and work several jobs just to go to community college. Many also had zero financial education. I think you are viewing student loans as something frivolous. Not everyone had parents that were willing or could afford to go without to help with school, on top of that the fact that these loans are supposed to help people get an education and better themselves, but instead continually grow and keep people saddled with lifetime debt while making a profit for the government is fucked up. I don't know how many time I have to say this. I took out 15k for trade school. have been paying for almost 10 years now only got below 10k because of the interest rate freeze. Now that payments and interest are back up if I continue making my payments I will pay 15k over the next 10 years to pay the damn thing off. All the while my government provided student loan has changed services so many times there is no way to accurately figure out how much I have already paid on my 15K, however I am sure it is well over 20k at this point. The system is fucked and these people aren't getting free money. It's trying to fix a broken system. If these were the terms to get into Trump U half of the people complaining about taking responsibility would be talking about how people got screwed.mace1229 said:
I don't see it as moving forward. It was a decision they made. If I paid too much for a car and decide now the payments are tough, should I get bailed out? I see no difference.tbergs said:
When society moves forward, it's always the older generation complaining and asking, what about me, even though they were once the group who also benefitted from some change the previous generation didn't have. They always conveniently forgot about their special privileges. Move on. I didn't get paternity leave, but now the state allows men paid leave for 6 weeks. Sucks I didn't get that benefit, but I'm glad it's been changed for future parents.mace1229 said:
So adults who agreed to take out a loan, went to the school of their choice, are getting free money now?mickeyrat said:
What about families that went without so their kids wouldn't be in debt?
What about those who chose a school for financials reasons to save money?
What about those who joined the military to cover the cost?
What about those who picked a different route so they wouldn't be in debt?
When do they get their free money?
You can make a choice about where to go, going to Jr college first, living at home, etc. College really doesn't have to be expensive. If you chose to make it expense, that's fine. But it was still a decision you made to take out loans so you can have that dorm experience in a 4 year college.
Others can get the same degree by going to a 2 year college first, not living in a dorm, and spending a small fraction.
I remember visiting my daughter at college several years ago and her roommate was having an issue paying rent because her student loan had not come through yet. These kids were borrowing $25K/year to go to a state school. Roughly $12K tuition and $13K room and board. Insane.
I've also run into people that lived at home, worked full time, and paid their own way. Very smart.
Some people just aren't that smart. These loans were predatory.0 -
As far as who is making the payments? No, we dont' look at that. It's irrelevant. But if you really wanted to know, you could know. Every check that is written, every ACH received is scanned and tracked for these companies.cincybearcat said:
Any data on who pays it off? I bet you can’t know.mrussel1 said:
I'm telling you this because I'm deeply familiar with bad rate modeling performance for student loans. Majors do not matter. Trade school vs university does. Graduation status does. But actual major has no material difference in delinquency or default. It may be counterintuitive, but I have 15+ years of data that we've analyzed.cincybearcat said:
Graduating doesn't mean being able to pay off the loan. I bet they have all the data they need to apply the correct risk profile by major. And if you have to provide your grades each semester...they could adjust as you go. You could earn a lower rate as you show you will graduate.mrussel1 said:
Honestly that's not predictive of loan performance. The single factor that is most predictive long term is graduation status. It's intuitive. People who graduate value the loan, have something to show and by and large are more gainfully employed. Those who drop out have a high delinquency rate.cincybearcat said:
I think your declared major should play into the risk profilemrussel1 said:
All true, but still not part of the Biden program. I would likely argue that the rates, by and large, are not predatory. Particularity the ones from Discover, SoFi, Citi, etc. Since they are not subsidized,, they have to match the risk profile. And they are not a public service, they are for profit. So they should be several points higher than subsidized.Halifax2TheMax said:
When the government got out of the student loan business and privatized it, the interest rates were no longer as low as they had been. That was one of the raging debates at the time. There are still government loan programs but most people are income earned out, via parent income tax return data for previous two years. Which puts you in the private loan market with higher interest rates.mrussel1 said:
You're conflating two things. Private student loans are not part of forgiveness, only federal. That's why I say the rates are fair, because they are linked to the discount rate. I believe it's still less than 5% for this year.Halifax2TheMax said:Some states have made two year community colleges free. Whaaaaa, they didn’t do it when I went to college. Could have gotten all my required courses out of the way and saved $8K. Whaaaaaaa, make those freeloaders pay something!
College tuition cost increases can be directly related to the federal and state governments cutting aid to them, beginning with the Raygun administration, particularly Pell Grants and the privatization of student loans. And I’d call 8%-9% interest rates when prime was 4%-5% predatory, higher if you had poor credit, no co-signer and/or a lack of assets. Having an educated and critical thinking populace is bad politics when your politics suck.
But my real response to your statement is...duh. no kidding
This is non-subsidized.
I find that amazing. So someone with an art history major vs say engineering and there is no difference on ability to pay? It’s hard to believe. Unless art history major is subsidized by parents
A good chunk of private student loans have co-signers/guarantors. That's also a predictor, but I left that part out because they are fundamentally part of the loan. So yes, certainly the guarantor could be making payments on the art history account.
You have to understand that in order to analyze it properly, you have to have a statistically significant number of borrowers into these different majors for a particular vintage. So you don't have that for a number of majors that have few people. It's easy to compare engineers to nurses to business majors. It's a little more difficult to throw in music theory and such. But when you do what I do, I can't just assume certain outcomes without supporting data.0 -
Most student housing at large universities is different now. You have your own lease that you sign. It comes with everything but electricity but the bill is split automatically by the leasing company. It's definitely more expensive than the old days, but I like not having to sign a lease for everyone. In case you are wondering, my son lives in a 5 bedroom and it's $800 per month. It is not cheap. They could have gone cheaper, but all of his friends suck (so does he) and they got a nice place.mace1229 said:
The 12 month is the only catch. But even then, when I did it, you split a 2 bedroom apartment 4 ways, costs like $400 in rent. Most meals involve chicken and rice, Mac n cheese or cereal, Maybe not a huge saver, but seemed like it was cheaper. And you get an apartment, not a 10x10 room and a community shower.mrussel1 said:
I wish that were true. My son's off campus bills are brutal. Plus you have to take 12 month leases.mace1229 said:
Room and board is a joke. It's cheaper to live off campus a lot of the time, and much better conditions.Gern Blansten said:
I've told this story before somewhere on here....static111 said:
Many people have to take out loans and work several jobs just to go to community college. Many also had zero financial education. I think you are viewing student loans as something frivolous. Not everyone had parents that were willing or could afford to go without to help with school, on top of that the fact that these loans are supposed to help people get an education and better themselves, but instead continually grow and keep people saddled with lifetime debt while making a profit for the government is fucked up. I don't know how many time I have to say this. I took out 15k for trade school. have been paying for almost 10 years now only got below 10k because of the interest rate freeze. Now that payments and interest are back up if I continue making my payments I will pay 15k over the next 10 years to pay the damn thing off. All the while my government provided student loan has changed services so many times there is no way to accurately figure out how much I have already paid on my 15K, however I am sure it is well over 20k at this point. The system is fucked and these people aren't getting free money. It's trying to fix a broken system. If these were the terms to get into Trump U half of the people complaining about taking responsibility would be talking about how people got screwed.mace1229 said:
I don't see it as moving forward. It was a decision they made. If I paid too much for a car and decide now the payments are tough, should I get bailed out? I see no difference.tbergs said:
When society moves forward, it's always the older generation complaining and asking, what about me, even though they were once the group who also benefitted from some change the previous generation didn't have. They always conveniently forgot about their special privileges. Move on. I didn't get paternity leave, but now the state allows men paid leave for 6 weeks. Sucks I didn't get that benefit, but I'm glad it's been changed for future parents.mace1229 said:
So adults who agreed to take out a loan, went to the school of their choice, are getting free money now?mickeyrat said:
What about families that went without so their kids wouldn't be in debt?
What about those who chose a school for financials reasons to save money?
What about those who joined the military to cover the cost?
What about those who picked a different route so they wouldn't be in debt?
When do they get their free money?
You can make a choice about where to go, going to Jr college first, living at home, etc. College really doesn't have to be expensive. If you chose to make it expense, that's fine. But it was still a decision you made to take out loans so you can have that dorm experience in a 4 year college.
Others can get the same degree by going to a 2 year college first, not living in a dorm, and spending a small fraction.
I remember visiting my daughter at college several years ago and her roommate was having an issue paying rent because her student loan had not come through yet. These kids were borrowing $25K/year to go to a state school. Roughly $12K tuition and $13K room and board. Insane.
I've also run into people that lived at home, worked full time, and paid their own way. Very smart.
Some people just aren't that smart. These loans were predatory.0 -
mrussel1 said:
Most student housing at large universities is different now. You have your own lease that you sign. It comes with everything but electricity but the bill is split automatically by the leasing company. It's definitely more expensive than the old days, but I like not having to sign a lease for everyone. In case you are wondering, my son lives in a 5 bedroom and it's $800 per month. It is not cheap. They could have gone cheaper, but all of his friends suck (so does he) and they got a nice place.mace1229 said:
The 12 month is the only catch. But even then, when I did it, you split a 2 bedroom apartment 4 ways, costs like $400 in rent. Most meals involve chicken and rice, Mac n cheese or cereal, Maybe not a huge saver, but seemed like it was cheaper. And you get an apartment, not a 10x10 room and a community shower.mrussel1 said:
I wish that were true. My son's off campus bills are brutal. Plus you have to take 12 month leases.mace1229 said:
Room and board is a joke. It's cheaper to live off campus a lot of the time, and much better conditions.Gern Blansten said:
I've told this story before somewhere on here....static111 said:
Many people have to take out loans and work several jobs just to go to community college. Many also had zero financial education. I think you are viewing student loans as something frivolous. Not everyone had parents that were willing or could afford to go without to help with school, on top of that the fact that these loans are supposed to help people get an education and better themselves, but instead continually grow and keep people saddled with lifetime debt while making a profit for the government is fucked up. I don't know how many time I have to say this. I took out 15k for trade school. have been paying for almost 10 years now only got below 10k because of the interest rate freeze. Now that payments and interest are back up if I continue making my payments I will pay 15k over the next 10 years to pay the damn thing off. All the while my government provided student loan has changed services so many times there is no way to accurately figure out how much I have already paid on my 15K, however I am sure it is well over 20k at this point. The system is fucked and these people aren't getting free money. It's trying to fix a broken system. If these were the terms to get into Trump U half of the people complaining about taking responsibility would be talking about how people got screwed.mace1229 said:
I don't see it as moving forward. It was a decision they made. If I paid too much for a car and decide now the payments are tough, should I get bailed out? I see no difference.tbergs said:
When society moves forward, it's always the older generation complaining and asking, what about me, even though they were once the group who also benefitted from some change the previous generation didn't have. They always conveniently forgot about their special privileges. Move on. I didn't get paternity leave, but now the state allows men paid leave for 6 weeks. Sucks I didn't get that benefit, but I'm glad it's been changed for future parents.mace1229 said:
So adults who agreed to take out a loan, went to the school of their choice, are getting free money now?mickeyrat said:
What about families that went without so their kids wouldn't be in debt?
What about those who chose a school for financials reasons to save money?
What about those who joined the military to cover the cost?
What about those who picked a different route so they wouldn't be in debt?
When do they get their free money?
You can make a choice about where to go, going to Jr college first, living at home, etc. College really doesn't have to be expensive. If you chose to make it expense, that's fine. But it was still a decision you made to take out loans so you can have that dorm experience in a 4 year college.
Others can get the same degree by going to a 2 year college first, not living in a dorm, and spending a small fraction.
I remember visiting my daughter at college several years ago and her roommate was having an issue paying rent because her student loan had not come through yet. These kids were borrowing $25K/year to go to a state school. Roughly $12K tuition and $13K room and board. Insane.
I've also run into people that lived at home, worked full time, and paid their own way. Very smart.
Some people just aren't that smart. These loans were predatory.
Sorry to butt in but I'm just curious- is that $800 per person or $800 for the whole place? One incredibly inexpensive, the other seems rather high if $800 x 5.
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
Yup. Makes sense.mrussel1 said:
As far as who is making the payments? No, we dont' look at that. It's irrelevant. But if you really wanted to know, you could know. Every check that is written, every ACH received is scanned and tracked for these companies.cincybearcat said:
Any data on who pays it off? I bet you can’t know.mrussel1 said:
I'm telling you this because I'm deeply familiar with bad rate modeling performance for student loans. Majors do not matter. Trade school vs university does. Graduation status does. But actual major has no material difference in delinquency or default. It may be counterintuitive, but I have 15+ years of data that we've analyzed.cincybearcat said:
Graduating doesn't mean being able to pay off the loan. I bet they have all the data they need to apply the correct risk profile by major. And if you have to provide your grades each semester...they could adjust as you go. You could earn a lower rate as you show you will graduate.mrussel1 said:
Honestly that's not predictive of loan performance. The single factor that is most predictive long term is graduation status. It's intuitive. People who graduate value the loan, have something to show and by and large are more gainfully employed. Those who drop out have a high delinquency rate.cincybearcat said:
I think your declared major should play into the risk profilemrussel1 said:
All true, but still not part of the Biden program. I would likely argue that the rates, by and large, are not predatory. Particularity the ones from Discover, SoFi, Citi, etc. Since they are not subsidized,, they have to match the risk profile. And they are not a public service, they are for profit. So they should be several points higher than subsidized.Halifax2TheMax said:
When the government got out of the student loan business and privatized it, the interest rates were no longer as low as they had been. That was one of the raging debates at the time. There are still government loan programs but most people are income earned out, via parent income tax return data for previous two years. Which puts you in the private loan market with higher interest rates.mrussel1 said:
You're conflating two things. Private student loans are not part of forgiveness, only federal. That's why I say the rates are fair, because they are linked to the discount rate. I believe it's still less than 5% for this year.Halifax2TheMax said:Some states have made two year community colleges free. Whaaaaa, they didn’t do it when I went to college. Could have gotten all my required courses out of the way and saved $8K. Whaaaaaaa, make those freeloaders pay something!
College tuition cost increases can be directly related to the federal and state governments cutting aid to them, beginning with the Raygun administration, particularly Pell Grants and the privatization of student loans. And I’d call 8%-9% interest rates when prime was 4%-5% predatory, higher if you had poor credit, no co-signer and/or a lack of assets. Having an educated and critical thinking populace is bad politics when your politics suck.
But my real response to your statement is...duh. no kidding
This is non-subsidized.
I find that amazing. So someone with an art history major vs say engineering and there is no difference on ability to pay? It’s hard to believe. Unless art history major is subsidized by parents
A good chunk of private student loans have co-signers/guarantors. That's also a predictor, but I left that part out because they are fundamentally part of the loan. So yes, certainly the guarantor could be making payments on the art history account.
You have to understand that in order to analyze it properly, you have to have a statistically significant number of borrowers into these different majors for a particular vintage. So you don't have that for a number of majors that have few people. It's easy to compare engineers to nurses to business majors. It's a little more difficult to throw in music theory and such. But when you do what I do, I can't just assume certain outcomes without supporting data.hippiemom = goodness0 -
Per person. And yes, it's incredibly expensive but less than what I paid for my oldest daughter for her apartment at William and Mary.. But that's why God created 529s.brianlux said:mrussel1 said:
Most student housing at large universities is different now. You have your own lease that you sign. It comes with everything but electricity but the bill is split automatically by the leasing company. It's definitely more expensive than the old days, but I like not having to sign a lease for everyone. In case you are wondering, my son lives in a 5 bedroom and it's $800 per month. It is not cheap. They could have gone cheaper, but all of his friends suck (so does he) and they got a nice place.mace1229 said:
The 12 month is the only catch. But even then, when I did it, you split a 2 bedroom apartment 4 ways, costs like $400 in rent. Most meals involve chicken and rice, Mac n cheese or cereal, Maybe not a huge saver, but seemed like it was cheaper. And you get an apartment, not a 10x10 room and a community shower.mrussel1 said:
I wish that were true. My son's off campus bills are brutal. Plus you have to take 12 month leases.mace1229 said:
Room and board is a joke. It's cheaper to live off campus a lot of the time, and much better conditions.Gern Blansten said:
I've told this story before somewhere on here....static111 said:
Many people have to take out loans and work several jobs just to go to community college. Many also had zero financial education. I think you are viewing student loans as something frivolous. Not everyone had parents that were willing or could afford to go without to help with school, on top of that the fact that these loans are supposed to help people get an education and better themselves, but instead continually grow and keep people saddled with lifetime debt while making a profit for the government is fucked up. I don't know how many time I have to say this. I took out 15k for trade school. have been paying for almost 10 years now only got below 10k because of the interest rate freeze. Now that payments and interest are back up if I continue making my payments I will pay 15k over the next 10 years to pay the damn thing off. All the while my government provided student loan has changed services so many times there is no way to accurately figure out how much I have already paid on my 15K, however I am sure it is well over 20k at this point. The system is fucked and these people aren't getting free money. It's trying to fix a broken system. If these were the terms to get into Trump U half of the people complaining about taking responsibility would be talking about how people got screwed.mace1229 said:
I don't see it as moving forward. It was a decision they made. If I paid too much for a car and decide now the payments are tough, should I get bailed out? I see no difference.tbergs said:
When society moves forward, it's always the older generation complaining and asking, what about me, even though they were once the group who also benefitted from some change the previous generation didn't have. They always conveniently forgot about their special privileges. Move on. I didn't get paternity leave, but now the state allows men paid leave for 6 weeks. Sucks I didn't get that benefit, but I'm glad it's been changed for future parents.mace1229 said:
So adults who agreed to take out a loan, went to the school of their choice, are getting free money now?mickeyrat said:
What about families that went without so their kids wouldn't be in debt?
What about those who chose a school for financials reasons to save money?
What about those who joined the military to cover the cost?
What about those who picked a different route so they wouldn't be in debt?
When do they get their free money?
You can make a choice about where to go, going to Jr college first, living at home, etc. College really doesn't have to be expensive. If you chose to make it expense, that's fine. But it was still a decision you made to take out loans so you can have that dorm experience in a 4 year college.
Others can get the same degree by going to a 2 year college first, not living in a dorm, and spending a small fraction.
I remember visiting my daughter at college several years ago and her roommate was having an issue paying rent because her student loan had not come through yet. These kids were borrowing $25K/year to go to a state school. Roughly $12K tuition and $13K room and board. Insane.
I've also run into people that lived at home, worked full time, and paid their own way. Very smart.
Some people just aren't that smart. These loans were predatory.
Sorry to butt in but I'm just curious- is that $800 per person or $800 for the whole place? One incredibly inexpensive, the other seems rather high if $800 x 5.0 -
I thought you were saying go to a community college for something unrelated to your chosen career.mace1229 said:
Why is attending a 2 year school a waste of time?HughFreakingDillon said:
first year of college for $300?mace1229 said:
That's not really true. We have subsidized higher ed. Its community college.HughFreakingDillon said:
you do realize millions upon millions of the rock's fans, um, I mean, people, don't have those options, right? to lift people out of poverty, you have to lend them a hand, not a boulder attached to their ankle. high interest student loans are the ONLY way for a high percentage of people to get an education and attempt to get out of poverty/low income.mace1229 said:
I don't see it as moving forward. It was a decision they made. If I paid too much for a car and decide now the payments are tough, should I get bailed out? I see no difference.tbergs said:
When society moves forward, it's always the older generation complaining and asking, what about me, even though they were once the group who also benefitted from some change the previous generation didn't have. They always conveniently forgot about their special privileges. Move on. I didn't get paternity leave, but now the state allows men paid leave for 6 weeks. Sucks I didn't get that benefit, but I'm glad it's been changed for future parents.mace1229 said:
So adults who agreed to take out a loan, went to the school of their choice, are getting free money now?mickeyrat said:
What about families that went without so their kids wouldn't be in debt?
What about those who chose a school for financials reasons to save money?
What about those who joined the military to cover the cost?
What about those who picked a different route so they wouldn't be in debt?
When do they get their free money?
You can make a choice about where to go, going to Jr college first, living at home, etc. College really doesn't have to be expensive. If you chose to make it expense, that's fine. But it was still a decision you made to take out loans so you can have that dorm experience in a 4 year college.
Others can get the same degree by going to a 2 year college first, not living in a dorm, and spending a small fraction.
Community college is easier to get into than a 4 year school. they are all over the country. Often in rural areas and more accessible than many 4 years. I did my first year there, it cost me $12 per unit. Got my first year of college out of the way for about $300. I looked it up a few months ago when I was having a similar conversation, and the cost hasn't gone up much.
I just find it hard to sympathize with someone's debt who chose to go to a 4 year school and never considered other options such as a 2 year first, then transfer. There are 2 year schools all over. But so few even consider it. They go straight to a 4 year, then complain about the cost.
Pick a school that suits your needs and within your budget. If cost is a factor, go to community college first. You get the same diploma in the end.
And that's just one example. There are other ways to avoid going into massive debt for school. But if you're set on a specific school and insist on spending all 4 years there and need to take out loans to make it happen, then yes it gets very expensive.
so you want people to waste time in a 2 or 4 year college for a degree they have no interest in, just so they can get a low paying job so eventually they can afford to go to university? and start a family at what, 45 years old? that means the system is broken.
Go for 2 years, transfer to a 4 year. Transfer to say Clemson University and your degree is exactly the same as every other kid who went there for all 4 years. But you paid half price. That’s not a waste of time.
Literally just getting all your GE classes out of the way will save you tons.
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mrussel1 said:
Per person. And yes, it's incredibly expensive but less than what I paid for my oldest daughter for her apartment at William and Mary.. But that's why God created 529s.brianlux said:mrussel1 said:
Most student housing at large universities is different now. You have your own lease that you sign. It comes with everything but electricity but the bill is split automatically by the leasing company. It's definitely more expensive than the old days, but I like not having to sign a lease for everyone. In case you are wondering, my son lives in a 5 bedroom and it's $800 per month. It is not cheap. They could have gone cheaper, but all of his friends suck (so does he) and they got a nice place.mace1229 said:
The 12 month is the only catch. But even then, when I did it, you split a 2 bedroom apartment 4 ways, costs like $400 in rent. Most meals involve chicken and rice, Mac n cheese or cereal, Maybe not a huge saver, but seemed like it was cheaper. And you get an apartment, not a 10x10 room and a community shower.mrussel1 said:
I wish that were true. My son's off campus bills are brutal. Plus you have to take 12 month leases.mace1229 said:
Room and board is a joke. It's cheaper to live off campus a lot of the time, and much better conditions.Gern Blansten said:
I've told this story before somewhere on here....static111 said:
Many people have to take out loans and work several jobs just to go to community college. Many also had zero financial education. I think you are viewing student loans as something frivolous. Not everyone had parents that were willing or could afford to go without to help with school, on top of that the fact that these loans are supposed to help people get an education and better themselves, but instead continually grow and keep people saddled with lifetime debt while making a profit for the government is fucked up. I don't know how many time I have to say this. I took out 15k for trade school. have been paying for almost 10 years now only got below 10k because of the interest rate freeze. Now that payments and interest are back up if I continue making my payments I will pay 15k over the next 10 years to pay the damn thing off. All the while my government provided student loan has changed services so many times there is no way to accurately figure out how much I have already paid on my 15K, however I am sure it is well over 20k at this point. The system is fucked and these people aren't getting free money. It's trying to fix a broken system. If these were the terms to get into Trump U half of the people complaining about taking responsibility would be talking about how people got screwed.mace1229 said:
I don't see it as moving forward. It was a decision they made. If I paid too much for a car and decide now the payments are tough, should I get bailed out? I see no difference.tbergs said:
When society moves forward, it's always the older generation complaining and asking, what about me, even though they were once the group who also benefitted from some change the previous generation didn't have. They always conveniently forgot about their special privileges. Move on. I didn't get paternity leave, but now the state allows men paid leave for 6 weeks. Sucks I didn't get that benefit, but I'm glad it's been changed for future parents.mace1229 said:
So adults who agreed to take out a loan, went to the school of their choice, are getting free money now?mickeyrat said:
What about families that went without so their kids wouldn't be in debt?
What about those who chose a school for financials reasons to save money?
What about those who joined the military to cover the cost?
What about those who picked a different route so they wouldn't be in debt?
When do they get their free money?
You can make a choice about where to go, going to Jr college first, living at home, etc. College really doesn't have to be expensive. If you chose to make it expense, that's fine. But it was still a decision you made to take out loans so you can have that dorm experience in a 4 year college.
Others can get the same degree by going to a 2 year college first, not living in a dorm, and spending a small fraction.
I remember visiting my daughter at college several years ago and her roommate was having an issue paying rent because her student loan had not come through yet. These kids were borrowing $25K/year to go to a state school. Roughly $12K tuition and $13K room and board. Insane.
I've also run into people that lived at home, worked full time, and paid their own way. Very smart.
Some people just aren't that smart. These loans were predatory.
Sorry to butt in but I'm just curious- is that $800 per person or $800 for the whole place? One incredibly inexpensive, the other seems rather high if $800 x 5.
Wow! And I thought prices were high where I live.
It's tough as hell on kids today. In my college years, people like myself and some of my friends could take classes, work at minimum wage jobs, afford tickets to venues like Fillmore West and Winterland, and live in a decent place in San Francisco. I really feel for these kids.
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
I would be for lower rates for federal student loans. We don't need to make money off it. I'm for helping people do better.mrussel1 said:
All true, but still not part of the Biden program. I would likely argue that the rates, by and large, are not predatory. Particularity the ones from Discover, SoFi, Citi, etc. Since they are not subsidized,, they have to match the risk profile. And they are not a public service, they are for profit. So they should be several points higher than subsidized.Halifax2TheMax said:
When the government got out of the student loan business and privatized it, the interest rates were no longer as low as they had been. That was one of the raging debates at the time. There are still government loan programs but most people are income earned out, via parent income tax return data for previous two years. Which puts you in the private loan market with higher interest rates.mrussel1 said:
You're conflating two things. Private student loans are not part of forgiveness, only federal. That's why I say the rates are fair, because they are linked to the discount rate. I believe it's still less than 5% for this year.Halifax2TheMax said:Some states have made two year community colleges free. Whaaaaa, they didn’t do it when I went to college. Could have gotten all my required courses out of the way and saved $8K. Whaaaaaaa, make those freeloaders pay something!
College tuition cost increases can be directly related to the federal and state governments cutting aid to them, beginning with the Raygun administration, particularly Pell Grants and the privatization of student loans. And I’d call 8%-9% interest rates when prime was 4%-5% predatory, higher if you had poor credit, no co-signer and/or a lack of assets. Having an educated and critical thinking populace is bad politics when your politics suck.
I guess a better way to say I'm against the forgiveness is mostly 2 reasons. There's no such thing as free money. It's not like China is paying it off for us. If that were the case, I'd be happy for everyone who got it. There's no such thing as free money, just taking it from someone else.
And second, there needs to be an obligation to minimize the cost by the consumer. I've already talked about some. How many kids don't even consider a cheaper school and transferring? Most don't even consider that option. College has become known as a 2 year party and then get serious for the last 2. Kids go off to college, party for 2 years and "find themselves" and are already 40k in debt before they even get serious about school. And it's not uncommon to misuse student loans. I mean, many of them just put money into the account of an 18 year old. Many schools already subsidize tuition based on income. We need to change the culture about how we look at school.
As a teacher I was instructed to not encourage or talk about community school to students. The reason was because the school wanted a higher 4-year university acceptance and attendance rate to publish. Schools will usually post how many of their students got accepted to and attended a 4 year school, if kids are going off to a 2 year school to get their GE credits out of the way first, the school can't brag on them. It made me mad.0 -
Were the same people complaining about this complaining about "free money" when Trump got his $2 trillion dollar tax cut for the rich through a few years ago?
Remember how that was going to pay for itself and jolt the economy and gdp was going to rise and rise?
Didn't happen. It was completely worthless and, of course, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more costly than this student loan thing.
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The Juggler said:Were the same people complaining about this complaining about "free money" when Trump got his $2 trillion dollar tax cut for the rich through a few years ago?
Remember how that was going to pay for itself and jolt the economy and gdp was going to rise and rise?
Didn't happen. It was completely worthless and, of course, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more costly than this student loan thing.
0 -
Kids aren't the problem, it's parents. I didn't expect my child to understand everything you put forth. That was my job. And I told my kids "no private or out of state public unless you're on scholarship". That was the college rule. But I know plenty of parents who have let their kids choose private schools that I know they can't afford. People who know bettermace1229 said:
I would be for lower rates for federal student loans. We don't need to make money off it. I'm for helping people do better.mrussel1 said:
All true, but still not part of the Biden program. I would likely argue that the rates, by and large, are not predatory. Particularity the ones from Discover, SoFi, Citi, etc. Since they are not subsidized,, they have to match the risk profile. And they are not a public service, they are for profit. So they should be several points higher than subsidized.Halifax2TheMax said:
When the government got out of the student loan business and privatized it, the interest rates were no longer as low as they had been. That was one of the raging debates at the time. There are still government loan programs but most people are income earned out, via parent income tax return data for previous two years. Which puts you in the private loan market with higher interest rates.mrussel1 said:
You're conflating two things. Private student loans are not part of forgiveness, only federal. That's why I say the rates are fair, because they are linked to the discount rate. I believe it's still less than 5% for this year.Halifax2TheMax said:Some states have made two year community colleges free. Whaaaaa, they didn’t do it when I went to college. Could have gotten all my required courses out of the way and saved $8K. Whaaaaaaa, make those freeloaders pay something!
College tuition cost increases can be directly related to the federal and state governments cutting aid to them, beginning with the Raygun administration, particularly Pell Grants and the privatization of student loans. And I’d call 8%-9% interest rates when prime was 4%-5% predatory, higher if you had poor credit, no co-signer and/or a lack of assets. Having an educated and critical thinking populace is bad politics when your politics suck.
I guess a better way to say I'm against the forgiveness is mostly 2 reasons. There's no such thing as free money. It's not like China is paying it off for us. If that were the case, I'd be happy for everyone who got it. There's no such thing as free money, just taking it from someone else.
And second, there needs to be an obligation to minimize the cost by the consumer. I've already talked about some. How many kids don't even consider a cheaper school and transferring? Most don't even consider that option. College has become known as a 2 year party and then get serious for the last 2. Kids go off to college, party for 2 years and "find themselves" and are already 40k in debt before they even get serious about school. And it's not uncommon to misuse student loans. I mean, many of them just put money into the account of an 18 year old. Many schools already subsidize tuition based on income. We need to change the culture about how we look at school.
As a teacher I was instructed to not encourage or talk about community school to students. The reason was because the school wanted a higher 4-year university acceptance and attendance rate to publish. Schools will usually post how many of their students got accepted to and attended a 4 year school, if kids are going off to a 2 year school to get their GE credits out of the way first, the school can't brag on them. It made me mad.0
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